403 réponses à ce sujet

[HiroVoid]

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

You mean that short story that basically reveals Anders to be in fact an abomination that needs to be killed? 

The one where Anders was an invincible cannibal, where the templars acted like a mage never joined the Grey Wardens before, and where the Grey Wardens capitulated to the templars by letting a templar spy into their midst, even though the US Ending for the Magi Warden shows how ludicrous that is when Greagoir acquires to the ruler of Ferelden telling him that the Circle will be free?

While the possessed Sophia Dryden was able to close the tear in the Veil at Warden's Keep (so I don't think it's implausible for Anders to be useful), the short story had quite a few holes in it's plot.

I'd go so far as to say it was just plan awful.  If someone in authority were to say "never happened", I certainly wouldn't miss it.

lol yeah.  That was part of my joke with the murder knife killing Anders.  I'd only put the short story above the original comics because the short story was still written by a writer for Bioware though as you said, so many things in the story don't seem to match the games.

[MisterJB]

Adanu wrote...
I also laugh at people calling ANders a terrorist. It was never about terror for him, so why the hell are you people using that word? Oh wait, because you're a bunch of ignorant fools who use the latest poltical buzzwords as gospel.

Of course, whenever I hear that a person exploded a building full of people because of his beliefs, my very first reaction is to conduct an introspection and analyze whether I have led a righteous life that has benefited those around or if I have been party to opression through action or inaction.
Actually, no, I just **** my pants in terror.

So, either Anders hoped to cause fear and use it to bring about change he deemed positive; which makes him a terrorist; or he is a f*cking brain dead idiot who doesn't know the first thing about human reactions.
Take your pick.

And, keep in mind that hoping to make people fear the mages so much they'd attempt to kill them all which would lead to mages fighting for fear of their lives which would break the stalemate still counts as using fear to achieve one's political goals which is what terrorists do by definition.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 janvier 2014 - 02:20 .

[MisterJB]

YAY! FREEDOM!


THANK YOU, ANDERS! SO SELFLESS OF YOU!


FREEDOM FEELS LIKE DEATH!


OH, I AM SO GLAD ANDERS IS AROUND TO DECIDE WHAT IS BEST FOR US!


I REALIZE NOW HOW THE CIRCLE IS AN INJUSTICE IN MANY PLACES BEYOND KIRKWALL. THANK YOU FOR OPENING MY EYES, ANDERS!
Right before closing them forever, of course.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 janvier 2014 - 02:18 .

[AresKeith]

Adanu wrote...
I also laugh at people calling ANders a terrorist. It was never about terror for him, so why the hell are you people using that word? Oh wait, because you're a bunch of ignorant fools who use the latest poltical buzzwords as gospel.

Last time I checked, doing something like blowing up buildings with the purpose of killing or sparking a war in Anders case counts as an act of terrorism

[Vit246]

MisterJB wrote...
*SNIP*

Its not like the Kirkwall Circle was so much more better and different before the Anders thing happened.

Sheesh.

Modifié par Vit246, 05 janvier 2014 - 02:25 .

[MisterJB]

Well, the streets of Kirkwall weren't battlefields involving templars, mages, demons and abominations.
And then came along Anders.

[Hellion Rex]

Ah, welcome back, Mr. JB.

[Vit246]

MisterJB wrote...

Well, the streets of Kirkwall weren't battlefields involving templars, mages, demons and abominations.
And then came along Anders.

?????

Yes they were.
Way before Anders. The Enigma of Kirkwall.

Modifié par Vit246, 05 janvier 2014 - 02:29 .

[MisterJB]

Thank you. How could I stay away from this place? Everyday there is something new to argue; so long as it involves templars and mages, of course.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 janvier 2014 - 02:30 .

[MisterJB]

Vit246 wrote...
?????

Yes they were.
Way before Anders. The Enigma of Kirkwall.

You mean the slave revolt that happened a thousand years ago when there weren't even Templars and a Circle? And that is your basis for claiming that things weren't much better before Anders appeared?

[LobselVith8]

eluvianix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The one where Anders was an invincible cannibal, where the templars acted like a mage never joined the Grey Wardens before, and where the Grey Wardens capitulated to the templars by letting a templar spy into their midst, even though the US Ending for the Magi Warden shows how ludicrous that is when Greagoir acquiesces to the ruler of Ferelden telling him that the Circle will be free?

While the possessed Sophia Dryden was able to close the tear in the Veil at Warden's Keep (so I don't think it's implausible for Anders to be useful), the short story had quite a few holes in it's plot. 

In Sophia's case though, she was dead and the demon was merely possessing her corpse, no? 

True, but I don't think it's implausible that Anders could be useful during the crisis with the Fade. His symbiosis with Justice is a bit atypical of the usual possessions, so I don't think it's out of the question.

[Vit246]

MisterJB wrote...

Vit246 wrote...
?????

Yes they were.
Way before Anders. The Enigma of Kirkwall.

You mean the slave revolt that happened a thousand years ago when there weren't even Templars and a Circle? And that is your basis for claiming that things weren't much better before Anders appeared?

Sigh. Okay. Rephrasing.

What I'm trying to say, is that before Anders, the situation for mages in Kirkwall was still terrible. Mages being driven into insanity / abominations and arbitrarily Tranquiled. Rapes. Suicides. Deaths. That stuff. Most of that stuff caused by most of the Templars. Mages were already suffering and dying. Sooner or later they'll die by Tranquility or the sword. They have very little left to lose by fighting back this time and perhaps if they really win, then they might not have to endure the Templars again.

[MisterJB]

Vit246 wrote...
Sigh. Okay. Rephrasing.

What I'm trying to say, is that before Anders, the situation for mages in Kirkwall was still terrible. Mages being driven into insanity / abominations and arbitrarily Tranquiled. Rapes. Suicides. Deaths. That stuff. Most of that stuff caused by most of the Templars. Mages were already suffering and dying. Sooner or later they'll die by Tranquility or the sword. They have very little left to lose by fighting back this time and perhaps if they really win, then they might not have to endure the Templars again.

1-First, conditions were harsh but they were still preferable to having every mage killed which what an Annulment is; and no, there is no reason to believe every mages was going to die of anything beyond old age sooner or later. If you disagree, then you are saying that it was right for Anders to decide in the name of the Circle what was better for them. Nevermind that there were mages like Bethany who were actually content with their lives or simply mages who would rather live with the situation as it is if the other choice is to die.

2-The mages are a very small minority; the other people in the city also matter and before Anders came along, their homes weren't being burned to the ground and they weren't being caught in the crossfire between templars, mages, demons and abominations.

[Lulupab]

The obvious and huge corruption among templar ranks becomes clear as day as an event done by a mage who has no ties to circle and anyone else causes Templars to blame all mages just like when a prisoner breaks a rule all prisoners gets punished for it (lockdown etc...). The corruption is so big that they turn on each other:



And of course when it comes to the tyrant and leader jailor of city she finally gets what she deserves. One of the most horrific deaths of all history in Thedas. She turns to stone in full consciousness and as she screams some parts of her body melt into nothingness. And she lefts a remnant, a reminder for all who become a dictator:



Even if you kill anders, he dies instantly with a smile on his face, forever free of pain aka a martyr's death. Bioware intended him to die that way and wanted meredith to have a tyrant's death.

I'd say Anders did quite well. Millions died in Andraste's rebellion to defeat the Tevinter Imperium and mages will die to free themselves and after victory they will recognize what Anders did. ( in event of multiple ending one of them will surely be mages victory)

Modifié par Rassler, 05 janvier 2014 - 03:06 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Rassler wrote...

The obvious and huge corruption among templar ranks becomes clear as day as an event done by a mage who has no ties to circle and anyone else causes Templars to blame all mages just like when a prisoner breaks a rule all prisoners gets punished for it (lockdown etc...). The corruption is so big that they turn on each other:



And of course when it comes to the tyrant and leader jailor of city she finally gets what she deserves. One of the most horrific deaths of all history in Thedas. She turns to stone in full consciousness and as she screams some parts of her body melt into nothingness. And she lefts a remnant, a reminder for all who become a dictator:



Even if you kill anders, he dies instantly with a smile on his face, forever free of pain aka a martyr's death. Bioware intended him to die that way and wanted meredith to have a tyrant's death.

I'd say Anders did quite well. Millions died in Andraste's rebellion to defeat the Tevinter Imperium and mages will die to free themselves and after victory they will recognize what Anders did. ( in event of multiple ending one of them will surely be mages victory)

Wow...It's so rare to see an unbiased OP here in BSN.

A Dicator?

No Meredith wasn't a Dicator she was a noble woman who fell to a tainted hunk of Lyrium trying to combat the evils of a city long tainted by Magic.

That said i dislike the Modern usage of the word "Dictator" People forget that Julius Caesar whom was "Depised" as a Tyrant by his political rivals and whom thought that the people would be overjoyed after his assasination were shocked into awe by how the Senate (Then the Imperial  Senate not the republican Senate) named him the first Deified Roman since the founder of the city state Romulus.

They rewarded their dicator by naming him among their Gods, adding a place for him within their Pantheon.

Certainly the word has changed meaning since that distant time considering which was once a title of such honor that a God wore it in mortal life is now being compared to a simple woman who had to be harsh in her action and convictions.

And Ander's always looked like he was dying in a pained grimmance to me; Like he was almost constipated.

[BioFan (Official)]

 Just reading the title of this thread, me:

[Lulupab]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Rassler wrote...

The obvious and huge corruption among templar ranks becomes clear as day as an event done by a mage who has no ties to circle and anyone else causes Templars to blame all mages just like when a prisoner breaks a rule all prisoners gets punished for it (lockdown etc...). The corruption is so big that they turn on each other:



And of course when it comes to the tyrant and leader jailor of city she finally gets what she deserves. One of the most horrific deaths of all history in Thedas. She turns to stone in full consciousness and as she screams some parts of her body melt into nothingness. And she lefts a remnant, a reminder for all who become a dictator:



Even if you kill anders, he dies instantly with a smile on his face, forever free of pain aka a martyr's death. Bioware intended him to die that way and wanted meredith to have a tyrant's death.

I'd say Anders did quite well. Millions died in Andraste's rebellion to defeat the Tevinter Imperium and mages will die to free themselves and after victory they will recognize what Anders did. ( in event of multiple ending one of them will surely be mages victory)

Wow...It's so rare to see an unbiased OP here in BSN.

A Dicator?

No Meredith wasn't a Dicator she was a noble woman who fell to a tainted hunk of Lyrium trying to combat the evils of a city long tainted by Magic.

That said i dislike the Modern usage of the word "Dictator" People forget that Julius Caesar whom was "Depised" as a Tyrant by his political rivals and whom thought that the people would be overjoyed after his assasination were shocked into awe by how the Senate (Then the Imperial  Senate not the republican Senate) named him the first Deified Roman since the founder of the city state Romulus.

They rewarded their dicator by naming him among their Gods, adding a place for him within their Pantheon.

Certainly the word has changed meaning since that distant time considering which was once a title of such honor that a God wore it in mortal life is now being compared to a simple woman who had to be harsh in her action and convictions.

And Ander's always looked like he was dying in a pained grimmance to me; Like he was almost constipated.

Red lyrium did not make her crazy it just made it worst. Red lyrium is designed to make you harsh against mages? nope. She was already powerthirsty before the idol. And yes she was a dictator, she didn't allow a viscount to be chosen because she wanted to be the sole ruler and her word to be the law. This is dictatorship and yes I mean the modern meaning. Someone who dictates the rules and punishes those harshly who don't follow.

I actually went and looked at Anders death scene again. He clearly dies instantly with an obvious smile on his face. Can't really tell how you interpreted "pain grimmance" in any of that. It was mor like riddance of pain.

Modifié par Rassler, 05 janvier 2014 - 04:42 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Rassler wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Rassler wrote...

The obvious and huge corruption among templar ranks becomes clear as day as an event done by a mage who has no ties to circle and anyone else causes Templars to blame all mages just like when a prisoner breaks a rule all prisoners gets punished for it (lockdown etc...). The corruption is so big that they turn on each other:



And of course when it comes to the tyrant and leader jailor of city she finally gets what she deserves. One of the most horrific deaths of all history in Thedas. She turns to stone in full consciousness and as she screams some parts of her body melt into nothingness. And she lefts a remnant, a reminder for all who become a dictator:



Even if you kill anders, he dies instantly with a smile on his face, forever free of pain aka a martyr's death. Bioware intended him to die that way and wanted meredith to have a tyrant's death.

I'd say Anders did quite well. Millions died in Andraste's rebellion to defeat the Tevinter Imperium and mages will die to free themselves and after victory they will recognize what Anders did. ( in event of multiple ending one of them will surely be mages victory)

Wow...It's so rare to see an unbiased OP here in BSN.

A Dicator?

No Meredith wasn't a Dicator she was a noble woman who fell to a tainted hunk of Lyrium trying to combat the evils of a city long tainted by Magic.

That said i dislike the Modern usage of the word "Dictator" People forget that Julius Caesar whom was "Depised" as a Tyrant by his political rivals and whom thought that the people would be overjoyed after his assasination were shocked into awe by how the Senate (Then the Imperial  Senate not the republican Senate) named him the first Deified Roman since the founder of the city state Romulus.

They rewarded their dicator by naming him among their Gods, adding a place for him within their Pantheon.

Certainly the word has changed meaning since that distant time considering which was once a title of such honor that a God wore it in mortal life is now being compared to a simple woman who had to be harsh in her action and convictions.

And Ander's always looked like he was dying in a pained grimmance to me; Like he was almost constipated.

Red lyrium did not make her crazy it just made it worst. Red lyrium is designed to make you harsh against mages? nope. She was already powerthirsty before the idol. And yes she was a dictator, she didn't allow a viscount to be chosen because she wanted to be the sole ruler and her word to be the law. This is dictatorship and yes I mean the modern meaning. Someone who dictates the rules and punishes those harshly who don't follow.

I actually went and looked at Anders death scene again. He clearly dies instantly with an obvious smile on his face. Can't really tell how you interpreted "pain grimmance" in any of that. It was mor like riddance of pain.

I don't recall mentioning the Idol; Her circle was crushed with resistance, betrayal and blind trust. Her own Templars turned against her and their charges, Blood Magic ran amok in the streets and the First Enchanter himself often stood between her and her duties.

You glance at Meredith and see all of the cities problems? Despite the fact much like Lambert she was fairly reactionary, perhaps that is the Templars fault after all. All they can do is react, they cannot remove trouble makers until they act, And considering Dumar was a puppet Viscount to begin with her position was likely more of a freindly suggestion by the chantry more so then her own whim.

To the final point.

<.< I still don't see it freind considering i just glanced at it myself.

It still looks like a pained grimmance to me, his face is contorted and his teeth clenched.

media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4537/andersdead3.jpg

[SwordofMordin]

nyanyagul wrote...

to become an anders u have to be emo, preach everyday like a mormon how the mages are being wronged comiting terrorist acts... oh and have sometimes attack of madness in memory of vengeance...

I would argue you but I can barely understand what your post is trying to state.

[The Elder King]

@Master Warder Z: 'Dictator' wasn't an honour in Republican Rome. It was an Office needed in crysis, where a man ammassed all the power, but when the situation ceased he and to step down. I don't recall exactly what happened, but if he was still a dictator when he died, he was overstepping his role. The fact that the Senate made him a deity doesn't change it. He was a a war hero, and EXTREMELY popular (he applied a lot the 'panem et circenses' motto). The Senate was trying to appeared the common folk, who were enraged and might've started a riot.
As for Meredith, she was certainly overstepping her role when she denied Kirkwall the choice of electing a new viscount. Dumar was Indeed a puppet, but that's because the templars help too much political power in the city, which is against the law. The templars shouldn't interfee with the politics. It's not their goal, or duty.

[Master Warder Z_]

hhh89 wrote...

@Master Warder Z: 'Dictator' wasn't an honour in Republican Rome. It was an Office needed in crysis, where a man ammassed all the power, but when the situation ceased he and to step down. I don't recall exactly what happened, but if he was still a dictator when he died, he was overstepping his role. The fact that the Senate made him a deity doesn't change it. He was a a war hero, and EXTREMELY popular (he applied a lot the 'panem et circenses' motto). The Senate was trying to appeared the common folk, who were enraged and might've started a riot.
As for Meredith, she was certainly overstepping her role when she denied Kirkwall the choice of electing a new viscount. Dumar was Indeed a puppet, but that's because the templars help too much political power in the city, which is against the law. The templars shouldn't interfee with the politics. It's not their goal, or duty.

I don't recall stating Dictator was an honor, not denying that it was an office of appointment. And He was hardly the only Political Leader of his own era, not to mention of this era and all that followed it to use the "Bread and Circuses" To make the populace content and appeased.

And it depends upon the context you look at it in i suppose; If you view the Ancient Roman Republic which at this time was utterly corrupt and ineffective as something worth preserving then his military coup might be something you would be against, however if you view the change to a more imperalistic and roman driven miltaristic empire as a positive then you would support the move.

And furthermore there is nothing preventing the Chantry, Templars or Seekers from possesing political power quite the opposite in fact considering you have many templars descending from noble families through out Thedas. Thrask was speaking in the context that it wasn't there place to meddle within the realm of politics, not that they were encapable of doing so.

[The Elder King]

The Master Warder Z: you said it was an honour. Right here :

Certainly the word has changed meaning since that distant time considering which was once a title of such honor that a God wore it in mortal life is now being compared to a simple woman who had to be harsh in her action and convictions

About Caesar, I agree that Rome needed to change (though Octavian was smarter). It doesn't change the fact that he was overstepping his role if he continued to hold the Office (though as I said, I don't exactly recall what he did after the civil war).

As for the templars, while the Chantry has certainly political influence in Thedas, that doesn't mean that the templars should. Their role is to guard the Circle and find apostates, not stepping in the viscount's place. The fact that nobles can be templars don't mean anything, since as Evangeline shown, they probably have to renounce to their possible titles.
And regardless of the fact that templars can influence the politics of a city/state, what Meredith did (stepping in the viscount's place and blocking the election of the next one) was still illegal. It wasn't her job to govern the city. Her job was to supervise the Circle, the mages and her templars.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Dictatorship is not inherently bad, it just applies a lot of pressure to ONE ruler, isntead of to all of society. It has its pros and cons, jsut like any other form of government. It has just become a buzzword in modern times, used by the media to villify without culturally paint persons (like the words despot or tyrant would).

Leave it to the media to corrupt original intent, meaning and purpose.

Oh, and Caesar had himself declared (by the Senate, which technically makes it legal) dictator for life. Of course he had either bought or intimated the entire senate by this point, and the senate was entirely corrupt, but the declaration of him as dictator for life was legal.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 05 janvier 2014 - 11:18 .

[Master Warder Z_]

hhh89 wrote...

The Master Warder Z: you said it was an honour. Right here :

Certainly the word has changed meaning since that distant time considering which was once a title of such honor that a God wore it in mortal life is now being compared to a simple woman who had to be harsh in her action and convictions

About Caesar, I agree that Rome needed to change (though Octavian was smarter). It doesn't change the fact that he was overstepping his role if he continued to hold the Office (though as I said, I don't exactly recall what he did after the civil war).

As for the templars, while the Chantry has certainly political influence in Thedas, that doesn't mean that the templars should. Their role is to guard the Circle and find apostates, not stepping in the viscount's place. The fact that nobles can be templars don't mean anything, since as Evangeline shown, they probably have to renounce to their possible titles.
And regardless of the fact that templars can influence the politics of a city/state, what Meredith did (stepping in the viscount's place and blocking the election of the next one) was still illegal. It wasn't her job to govern the city. Her job was to supervise the Circle, the mages and her templars.

So you are comparing me to viewing the title with Honor to the title it self being an honor such as being knighted? Personal reverence for the men who wore it and what they acomplished aside i don't view it as an honor. So this was a plain misunderstanding and nothing more.

Furthermore Caesar made no move to disolve the Senate, he did however oust every one who wasn't supportive of him during his purge in the civil war but that said afterwards he made no move of it besides cementing his own permenent place in power. He didn't overstep he took the power that the senate threw at his feet when Antony defected with half of their military might and decided to go play king in the sand.

And considering you have Knights within the Templars even have actual Knights Serving within their rank such as Mollrick whom served as a Templar in the circle of Ansburg when he was mentioned in both the codex and world of thedas it mentioned his placement into knighthood by the local Lord if i recall as a reward for capturing or killing an aspotate.

Symbolic title or no, its clear you can maintain nobility within the templars if you so choose considering the appointment went into effect with him being Ser Mollrick and not merely Templar Mollrick.

Illegal according to what? The laws of a city state too weak to defend it self from Magic with out Templar aid? Perhaps Martial Law should have come to kirkwall sooner and perhaps it would have served as a settlement to many of the cities ills.

The corrupt and ineffective government allowed crime of both magical and non magical nature to flourish.

[Master Warder Z_]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Dictatorship is not inherently bad, it just applies a lot of pressure to ONE ruler, isntead of to all of society. It has its pros and cons, jsut like any other form of government. It has just become a buzzword in modern times, used by the media to villify without culturally paint persons (like the words despot or tyrant would).

Leave it to the media to corrupt original intent, meaning and purpose.

Oh, and Caesar had himself declared (by the Senate, which technically makes it legal) dictator for life. Of course he had either bought or intimated the entire senate by this point, and the senate was entirely corrupt, but the declaration of him as dictator for life was legal.

I mentioned as much in my own post regarding Ceasar heh.

Such a shrewd politician that man.