50 réponses à ce sujet

[PracticalKat]

Hi All

I have several characters still in the OC, but am planning to start on SoU and HotU this year.  I particularly enjoy my fighter/bard, and rogue archer.  So I'm thinking of building an arcane archer to run through SoU, a bridging module, and then through HotU to Level 40. Having read the recent thread started by Sarielle, I want to go for a bard/AA.  My aim is to have an effective archer, with decent charisma, so that I can really use bard capabilities such as curse song to be even more effective as a ranged damage dealer.  I also want charisma to be able to boost skills like UMD, Persuade and Taunt.

I've been browsing the epic build site, and like the look of the "Archer Laureate" because of the high charisma and bard levels. I'm a bit nervous that Dexterity is not raised above 16, and was wondering whether I shouldn't raise Cha and Dex alternately (after getting to 16 Cha) to help playability at lower levels.  What do people think?
  
Otherwise "Corellon's Chanteuse" looks interesting, using Champion of Torm to play off of the high bard charisma.  This has more feats as a result, and the option of some melee capability. 
 
What is your opinion of the playability of the above builds for SoU and HotU?  Also, what do people suggest for using as bridging modules for an AA?

[PracticalKat]

Overview of The Archer Laureate:

Class: Bard17/Blackguard4/Arcane Archer19
Alignment: Neutral or Chaotic Evil
Race: Elf
Playable 1-40 PvM, Low to Mid Magic Settings

Attributes
Str14
Int14
Wis8
Dex16
Con12
Chr14 (30)

Level Guide
1 Bard1, Point Blank Shot
2 Bard2
3 Bard3, WF: Longbow
4 Bard4, Chr15
5 Bard5
6 Bard6, Power Attack
7 Bard7
8 Bard8, Chr16
9 AA1, Cleave
10 BG1
11 BG2
12 BG3, Divine Might, Chr17
13 AA2
14 AA3
15 BG4, Divine Shield
16 AA4, Chr18
17 AA5
18 AA6, Rapid Shot
19 AA7
20 AA8, Chr19
21 AA9, Great Charisma I
22 Bard9
23 Bard10
24 Bard11, Curse Song, Chr21
25 Bard12
26 AA10
27 Bard13, Great Chr II
28 AA11, Chr23
29 AA12
30 AA13, Great Chr III
31 AA14, EWF: Longbow
32 Bard14, Chr 25
33 AA15, Great Chr IV
34 Bard15
35 AA16
36 AA17, Great Chr V, Chr28
37 Bard16
38 AA18, Epic Prowess
39 AA19, Great Chr VI
40 Bard17, Chr30

Combat Vitals
HP: 372
AB: 45 (mundane longbow)
Attack Schedule: 45/40/35/30
Buffed Attacked Schedule: 65/60/55/50/65
AC: 29 (mundane plate)
Buffed AC (with +5 items): 64
Ideal Damage Delivery: +1d6 piercing, +10-16 Divine, +10 Enchant Arrow, +2-8 Mighty, +3 Piercing (Bard Song), +1d6 sneak, +2 PBS

Saving Throws:
Fortitude: 33 (42)
Will: 29 (38)
Reflex: 36 (45)

[PracticalKat]

Overview of Corellon's Chanteuse

Class: Bard 12, Champion Of Torm 10, Arcane Archer 18
Race: Elven
(Female - Leyrana Ma'fer)
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
PvM (No idea about PvP)

STR: 14
DEX: 16 (30)
CON: 12
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 14

01: Bard(1): Lingering Song
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): Weapon Focus: Longbow
04: Bard(4): DEX+1, (DEX=17)
05: Bard(5)
06: Bard(6): Point Blank Shot
07: Bard(7)
08: Bard(8): DEX+1, (DEX=18)
09: Arcane Archer(1): Weapon Focus: Rapier
10: Arcane Archer(2)
11: Champion of Torm(1)
12: Champion of Torm(2): DEX+1, Extend Spell, Weapon Finesse, (DEX=19)
13: Arcane Archer(3)
14: Champion of Torm(3): {Smite Evil}
15: Champion of Torm(4): Improved Critical: Longbow, Rapid Shot
16: Arcane Archer(4): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
17: Champion of Torm(5)
18: Champion of Torm(6): Knockdown, Blind Fight
19: Champion of Torm(7)
20: Arcane Archer(5): DEX+1, (DEX=21)
21: Arcane Archer(6): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=22)
22: Bard(9)
23: Arcane Archer(7)
24: Arcane Archer(8): DEX+1, Epic Will, (DEX=23)
25: Arcane Archer(9)
26: Champion of Torm(8): Epic Prowess
27: Bard(10): Curse Song
28: Arcane Archer(10): DEX+1, (DEX=24)
29: Arcane Archer(11)
30: Arcane Archer(12): Epic Fortitude
31: Arcane Archer(13)
32: Bard(11): DEX+1, (DEX=25)
33: Champion of Torm(9): Great Dexterity II, (DEX=26)
34: Arcane Archer(14): Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow
35: Arcane Archer(15)
36: Arcane Archer(16): DEX+1, Epic Weapon Focus: Rapier, (DEX=27)
37: Champion of Torm(10): Armor Skin
38: Arcane Archer(17)
39: Arcane Archer(18): Great Dexterity III, Great Dexterity IV, (DEX=29)
40: Bard(12): DEX+1, (DEX=30)

Hitpoints: 356
Skillpoints: 238
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 31/27/40
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +9, Mind Effects: +2
BAB: 28
AB (max, naked): 42 (melee), 51 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 30/33
Spell Casting: Bard(4)

[Empyre65]

HotU only takes you to about level 27 or 28, but if you follow that with the Sands of Fate series, you will get all the way to level 40. I recently did that with a Rogue 17 / Wizard 1 / AA 22, and it went well.

I like the second build you posted better, but here is a tweaked version:

Class: Bard 12, Champion Of Torm 10, Arcane Archer 18
Race: Elven
(Female - Leyrana Ma'fer)
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
PvM (No idea about PvP)

STR: 14
DEX: 16 (32)
CON: 12
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 14

01: Bard(1): Point Blank Shot
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): Weapon Focus: Longbow
04: Bard(4): DEX+1, (DEX=17)
05: Bard(5)
06: Bard(6): Lingering Song
07: Bard(7)
08: Bard(8): DEX+1, (DEX=18)
09: Arcane Archer(1): Blind Fight
10: Arcane Archer(2)
11: Champion of Torm(1)
12: Champion of Torm(2): DEX+1, Extend Spell, Weapon Finesse, (DEX=19)
13: Arcane Archer(3)
14: Champion of Torm(3): {Smite Evil}
15: Champion of Torm(4): Improved Critical: Longbow, Rapid Shot
16: Arcane Archer(4): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
17: Champion of Torm(5)
18: Champion of Torm(6): Great Fortitude, Called Shot
19: Champion of Torm(7)
20: Arcane Archer(5): DEX+1, (DEX=21)
21: Arcane Archer(6): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=22)
22: Bard(9)
23: Arcane Archer(7)
24: Arcane Archer(8): DEX+1, Epic Will, (DEX=23)
25: Arcane Archer(9)
26: Champion of Torm(8): Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow
27: Bard(10): Curse Song
28: Arcane Archer(10): DEX+1, (DEX=24)
29: Arcane Archer(11)
30: Arcane Archer(12): Epic Prowess
31: Arcane Archer(13)
32: Bard(11): DEX+1, (DEX=25)
33: Champion of Torm(9): Great Dexterity II, (DEX=26)
34: Arcane Archer(14): Great Dexterity III (DEX = 27)
35: Arcane Archer(15)
36: Arcane Archer(16): DEX+1, Great Dexterity IV, (DEX=29)
37: Champion of Torm(10): Armor Skin
38: Arcane Archer(17)
39: Arcane Archer(18): Great Dexterity V, Great Dexterity VI, (DEX=31)
40: Bard(12): DEX+1, (DEX=32)

Hitpoints: 356
Skillpoints: 238
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 29/27/40
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +9, Mind Effects: +2
BAB: 28
AB (max, naked): 39 (melee), 52 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 31/34
Spell Casting: Bard(4)

[PracticalKat]

Hi Empyre, thanks I like your tweaks - more focussed on ranged attack. In the OC I'm running a melee Fighter 4 / Bard X and enjoying it tremendously. At one stage I rebuilt and dropped Cha to 14 (from 16) to be able to increase Strength (and AB), but reverted because of the way Curse Song was weakened.

I'll play with your suggestion, and maybe bring in Curse Song earlier and boost Cha to 16 along the way. Other than that, I think that a focus in a melee weapon is needed for CoT.

Cheers!

[MrZork]

I couple quick thoughts on the last Ba/CoT/AA build:

The allowable alignments are CG, CN, TN, NG. LN isn't an option without several alignment shifts.

The toon isn't buildable without Weapon Focus in a melee weapon. It's required for the CoT class. I suspect that Extend Spell or one of the saving throw feats is on the chopping block.

This is something of a personal preference, but in DEX builds that take it, I like to take Weapon Finesse as early as I can. People often say forget about it for an archer, but this is a real toon that will be played through the early levels, not some build that gets a pass to level 40. You will spend a fair amount of early combat in melee, especially in a build like this that won't have much in the way of tanking summons. Much better to be able to hit something and better to take it earlier than later. The difference between STR and DEX early on may not seem like much, but keep in mind that you will be looking for DEX items and you will have Cat's Grace from level 4 on.

(BTW, that isn't to say that this toon and similar dexer toons can't survive without Weapon Finesse. Certainly, with summon scrolls and the right choice of henchmen, he could. It's just that leveling is easier with the feat.)

I would try and get along without CHA over 14. It seems like the benefits of CHA 16 will be marginal in a build that doesn't need it for bard spells.

Modifié par MrZork, 05 janvier 2014 - 06:34 .

[MagicalMaster]

I'm still trying to get the benefit of Champion of Torm in this build. I'd probably go something like Fighter 8/Bard 3/AA 29 or something similar -- or if you wanted Bard Song, probably Bard 16/AA 24 or Bard 21/AA 19 (for Lasting Inspiration).

[Empyre65]

*Facepalm* I forgot about that requirement for CoT.

[MrZork]

MM, I was assuming that CoT was to avoid XP penalties and to give +5 to saves (which are decent for an AA, pity there's no evasion, though). If the penalty is not a factor (and there isn't some other reason for CoT), fighter is more attractive, IMO. Effectively, swapping CoT for fighter gives two extra feats: one from fighter level one and one freed up from the need to take WF in a melee weapon. If nothing else, using those feats for WS and EWS longbow would greatly increase the damage output of the build, not to mention that swapping four of the pre-epic bard levels for fighter would increase AB by a point.

[PracticalKat]

@MM, I want to take elf for the extra dexterity and am aiming for solid bard song, so CoT was a way of gaining feats without XP penalty.

There are no sample epic Bard 16/AA 24 builds, but if going that way I'd adapt the one below for Elf, raise Str and Int to 14 and drop Wis to 8. I'd still want to fit Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus: Rapier in somewhere.

I'm leaning towards Bard 16 / CoT 6 / Arcane Archer 18 at the moment as a compromise. Are there any sound reasons for not going this way, apart from reduced saving throw benefits?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Piercing Ballad: Bard 21 / Arcane Archer 19

Race: Half-Elf
Alignement: Any/Non-Lawful

Playable 1-40 PvM
(No - Mid Magic server)
Preferably in party (semi-support build)

Abilities:

Str: 10
Dex: 16 (30)
Con: 12
Wis: 10
Int: 12
Cha: 15 (16)

Level Progression:

1: Bard 1: Lingering Song
2: Bard 2
3: Bard 3: WF: Longbow
4: Bard 4: Dex +1 (17)
5: Bard 5
6: Bard 6: Point Blank shot
7: Bard 7
8: Bard 8: Dex +1 (18)
9: Bard 9: Extend Spell
10: Arcane Archer 1: (Enchant Arrow I)
11: AA 2
12: AA 3: Imp. Crit: Longbow, Dex +1 (19)
13: AA 4
14: AA 5
15: AA 6: Rapid Shot
16: AA 7: Dex +1 (20)
17: Bard 10: (Skill dump)
18: AA 8: Called Shot
19: AA 9: (Enchant Arrow V)
20: AA 10: Dex +1 (21)

Epic Levels:

21: Bard 11: EWF: Longbow
22: Bard 12
23: Bard 13
24: Bard 14: Curse Song, Dex +1 (22)
25: Bard 15
26: Bard 16
27: Bard 17: Great Cha I (16)
28: Bard 18: Dex +1 (23)
29: Bard 19
30: Bard 20: Lasting Inspiration
31: AA 11
32: AA 12: Dex +1 (24)
33: AA 13: Epic Prowess
34: AA 14: Great Dex I' (25)
35: AA 15
36: AA 16: Great Dex II, Dex +1 (27)
37: AA 17
38: AA 18: Great Dex III' (28)
39: AA 19: Great Dex IV, (Enchant Arrow X) (29)
40: Bard 21: Dex +1 (30) (Skill Dump)

Prime feats (marked ') are the AA bonus feats.

The Numbers (All are done in head so there might be some minor errors)

BAB: 17 (4 attacks per round)
Melee AB: 38/33/28/23
Ranged AB: 51/46/41/36
Rapid Shot mode: 49/44/39/34/29

With buffs: (Ranged)
War Cry +2
Cats grace +2
Bard song +2
= 57 AB

Damage: 1-8 + 10
Crit: 19-20 x3
Buffed:
+2 War Cry
+3 Bard Song
+2 Mighty (with bulls strength active)
= 18 + 0-7

AC: 30
Buffed AC:
Cats Grace +2
Bard Song +5
Mage Armour +4
Haste +4
(Protection from alignement +2)
= 55 (57 vs good/evil)

HPs: 320 +26 from bard song.

Saves:
Reflex: 32 (40) +2
Fortitude: 21 (31) +2
Will: 20 (30) +3
(vs. spells) + song

Skills:
Tumble 40 (50)
UMD 42 (45)
Spellcraft 43 (44)
Perform 42 (45)
Discipline 43
+ 7 to all with song.

Left over: 5 points.

Bard Song lv 19 with 45 perform.
Lasting 105 rounds. (10,5 turns)

Key spells: (not in order of importance)
Cat's grace
Bulls Strength
Eagles Splendor
Ghostly Visage
Clarity
Improved Invisibility
Protection From Alignement
War Cry
Mage Armour
Haste
Dismissal
Energy Buffer

Other Nifty (but not crucial spells):
Summon Creature (as you level up, useless in later levels)
Dirge
Healing Spells
Mass Haste
Ice Storm
Expeditious Retreat
Neutralize Poison
Remove Curse/Desease (low fort saves)
Greater Magic Weapon (to boost your backup rapier)

[PracticalKat]

OK, here is my proposal based on previous posts. I'm trying to keep the bard song (16) but still adding some extra feats to be more flexible. Str has had to go down to up Cha, but Bull's Strength should compensate.

This is my first epic build, so I haven't got the hang of the spreadsheet that does all the AB calcs etc. Bard skillpoints to be allocated as in "Piercing Ballad" above.

Class: Bard 16, Champion Of Torm 6, Arcane Archer 18Race: ElvenAlignment: Chaotic GoodPvM (No idea about PvP)
STR: 12DEX: 16 (30)CON: 12WIS: 8INT: 14CHA: 15 (16)
01: Bard(1): Lingering Song02: Bard(2)03: Bard(3): Weapon Focus: Longbow04: Bard(4): DEX+1, (DEX=17)05: Bard(5)06: Bard(6): Point Blank Shot07: Bard(7)08: Bard(8): DEX+1, (DEX=18)09: Arcane Archer(1): Weapon Finesse,10: Arcane Archer(2)11: Champion of Torm(1)12: Champion of Torm(2): DEX+1, Extend Spell, Weapon Focus: Rapier, (DEX=19)13: Arcane Archer(3)14: Champion of Torm(3): {Smite Evil}15: Champion of Torm(4): Improved Critical: Longbow, Rapid Shot16: Arcane Archer(4): DEX+1, (DEX=20)17: Champion of Torm(5)18: Champion of Torm(6): Called Shot, Blind Fight19: Bard(9)20: Arcane Archer(5): DEX+1, (DEX=21)21: Arcane Archer(6): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=22)22: Bard(10): Curse Song23: Arcane Archer(7)24: Arcane Archer(8): DEX+1, Epic Will, (DEX=23)25: Arcane Archer(9)26: Bard (11) 27: Bard(12): Great Charisma I (CHA=16)28: Arcane Archer(10): DEX+1, (DEX=24)29: Arcane Archer(11)30: Arcane Archer(12): Armor Skin31: Arcane Archer(13)32: Bard(13): DEX+1, (DEX=25)33: Bard(14): Great Dexterity II, (DEX=26)34: Arcane Archer(14): Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow35: Arcane Archer(15)36: Arcane Archer(16): DEX+1, Epic Weapon Focus: Rapier, (DEX=27)37: Bard(15)              38: Arcane Archer(17)39: Arcane Archer(18): Great Dexterity III, Great Dexterity IV, (DEX=29)40: Bard(16): DEX+1, (DEX=30)

Modifié par brendonwp, 06 janvier 2014 - 07:25 .

[MagicalMaster]

brendonwp wrote...

@MM, I want to take elf for the extra dexterity and am aiming for solid bard song, so CoT was a way of gaining feats without XP penalty.

Fair enough, but I don't think the feats are worth it -- every 2 AA levels give you 1 AB/1 damage and every 4 levels gets you a feat.  To put that in perspective, if you skipped 2 CoT levels for 2 more AA levels and dropped Epic Prowess, you'd still come out 1 damage ahead.

brendonwp wrote...

There are no sample epic Bard 16/AA 24 builds, but if going that way I'd adapt the one below for Elf, raise Str and Int to 14 and drop Wis to 8. I'd still want to fit Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus: Rapier in somewhere.

I really wouldn't recommend this -- with something like AA 24, you're giving up 13 AB/damage (12 from AA plus 1 from Point Blank Shot) to switch to a melee weapon.  12 AB is MASSIVE.  Yes, you'll avoid an AoO if you're in melee, but you're giving up like 50% of your damage to get hit 25% less or something.  And if you get Dodge/Mobility, that's an extra 4 AC versus those AoO.

The only time an AA should ever consider NOT using a bow is if the enemy is completely immune to piercing damage or something.

In general, here are the feats you need pre-epic:

WF
IC
PBS
Rapid Shot
Curse Song
Blind Fight

That leaves you free to still take Extend Spell, Toughness, or Called Shot.  And, frankly, you can probably skip Rapid Shot -- it gives an extremely low benefit once you have haste and 4 APR.  For example, imagine your foe has 30 AC and you have 28 AB.  That's 95%/70%/45%/20%/95% = 3.25 hits per round.  Add in Rapid Shot and you get 85/60/35/10/85/60 = 3.35 hits per round -- a 3% increase.

In Epic Levels, you want

Lasting Inspiration
EWF
EP
Great Dex ??
Armor Skin (if ending on an odd dex score)

If we start with...

14 STR
18 Dex
12 Con
10 Int
8 Wis
14 Cha

Then you can raise CHA to 16 and Dex to 26 naturally.  If you go Bard 21/AA 19 you get 9 feats in epic, so...

Lasting Inspiration
EWF
EP
Great Dex VI

For 32 total Dexterity.

[Empyre65]

Edit: Ninja'd because I took so long. I still stand by my advice, though, which doesn't conflict with MM's advice (much).

brendonwp wrote...

OK, here is my proposal based on previous posts. I'm trying to keep the bard song (16) but still adding some extra feats to be more flexible. Str has had to go down to up Cha, but Bull's Strength should compensate.

This is my first epic build, so I haven't got the hang of the spreadsheet that does all the AB calcs etc. Bard skillpoints to be allocated as in "Piercing Ballad" above.

Class: Bard 16, Champion Of Torm 6, Arcane Archer 18
Race: Elven
Alignment: Chaotic Good
PvM (No idea about PvP)

STR: 12
DEX: 16 (30)
CON: 12
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 15 (16)

01: Bard(1): Lingering Song
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): Weapon Focus: Longbow
04: Bard(4): DEX+1, (DEX=17)
05: Bard(5)
06: Bard(6): Point Blank Shot
07: Bard(7)
08: Bard(8): DEX+1, (DEX=18)
09: Arcane Archer(1): Weapon Finesse,
10: Arcane Archer(2)
11: Champion of Torm(1)
12: Champion of Torm(2): DEX+1, Extend Spell, Weapon Focus: Rapier, (DEX=19)
13: Arcane Archer(3)
14: Champion of Torm(3): {Smite Evil}
15: Champion of Torm(4): Improved Critical: Longbow, Rapid Shot
16: Arcane Archer(4): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
17: Champion of Torm(5)
18: Champion of Torm(6): Called Shot, Blind Fight
19: Bard(9)
20: Arcane Archer(5): DEX+1, (DEX=21)
21: Arcane Archer(6): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=22)
22: Bard(10): Curse Song
23: Arcane Archer(7)
24: Arcane Archer(8): DEX+1, Epic Will, (DEX=23)
25: Arcane Archer(9)
26: Bard (11)
27: Bard(12): Great Charisma I (CHA=16)
28: Arcane Archer(10): DEX+1, (DEX=24)
29: Arcane Archer(11)
30: Arcane Archer(12): Armor Skin
31: Arcane Archer(13)
32: Bard(13): DEX+1, (DEX=25)
33: Bard(14): Great Dexterity II, (DEX=26)
34: Arcane Archer(14): Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow
35: Arcane Archer(15)
36: Arcane Archer(16): DEX+1, Epic Weapon Focus: Rapier, (DEX=27)
37: Bard(15)
38: Arcane Archer(17)
39: Arcane Archer(18): Great Dexterity III, Great Dexterity IV, (DEX=29)
40: Bard(16): DEX+1, (DEX=30)

I added new lines to make the build readabe. To avoid that problem, copy-and-paste from the spreadsheet's Output page into Notepad, and then copy-and-paste from there into the forums. Now I can see the problems with the build:
You are taking CoT before taking WF in a melee weapon. You can't do that. I made a similar mistake myself earlier in this thread, and was called on it.
You are taking a feat at level 22. You can't do that. Bard 10 has no bonus feat, and there is no general feat at level 22.
I recommend taking Point Blank Shot at level 1 so you can melee with your bow from the very beginning.
I like the Peircing Ballad build better, but here it is with some tweaks in bold and comments added by me in brackets {}.

Piercing Ballad: Bard 21 / Arcane Archer 19

Race: Elf
Alignement: Any/Non-Lawful

Playable 1-40 PvM
(No - Mid Magic server) {SoU, HotU, and Sands of Fate are very high magic, btw.}
Preferably in party (semi-support build) {Use a henchman when you can.}

Abilities:

Str: 10
Dex: 16 (30) {fewer points spent here (keeping this at 16) ...}
Con: 12 {... so you can keep this at 12 ...}
Wis: 10
Int: 14 {... and get more skills!}
Cha: 15 (16)

Level Progression:

1: Bard 1: Point Blank Shot {so you can melee with your bow right away}
2: Bard 2
3: Bard 3: WF: Longbow
4: Bard 4: Dex +1 (17)
5: Bard 5
6: Bard 6: Lingering Song
7: Bard 7
8: Bard 8: Dex +1 (18)
9: Bard 9: Extend Spell
10: Arcane Archer 1: (Enchant Arrow I)
11: AA 2
12: AA 3: Imp. Crit: Longbow, Dex +1 (19) {Maybe take Weapon Finesse here ...}
13: AA 4
14: AA 5
15: AA 6: Rapid Shot {... which would move Imp Crit to here ...}
16: AA 7: Dex +1 (20)
17: Bard 10: (Skill dump)
18: AA 8: Called Shot {... and move Rapid Shot to here.}
19: AA 9: (Enchant Arrow V)
20: AA 10: Dex +1 (21)

Epic Levels:

21: Bard 11: EWF: Longbow
22: Bard 12
23: Bard 13
24: Bard 14: Curse Song, Dex +1 (22)
25: Bard 15
26: Bard 16
27: Bard 17: Great Cha I (16)
28: Bard 18: Dex +1 (23)
29: Bard 19
30: Bard 20: Lasting Inspiration
31: AA 11
32: AA 12: Dex +1 (24)
33: AA 13: Epic Prowess
34: AA 14: Great Dex I' (25)
35: AA 15
36: AA 16: Great Dex II, Dex +1 (27)
37: AA 17
38: AA 18: Great Dex III' (28)
39: AA 19: Great Dex IV, (Enchant Arrow X) (29)
40: Bard 21: Dex +1 (30) (Skill Dump)

Prime feats (marked ') are the AA bonus feats.

Modifié par Empyre65, 06 janvier 2014 - 11:35 .

[MagicalMaster]

Empyre65 wrote...

Str: 10
Dex: 16 (30) {fewer points spent here (keeping this at 16) ...}
Con: 12 {... so you can keep this at 12 ...}
Wis: 10
Int: 14 {... and get more skills!}
Cha: 15 (16)

I don't see a point in Wisdom 10.  The 1 better Will save won't matter.  Empyre's build here is giving up 2 damage, 1 AB, and 1 AC to gain two more skill points per level -- and Bards/AAs already get four per level.  Perform, Tumble, UMD, and Spellcraft.  Not sure what else you really want.

I'd strongly suggest using

Str: 10
Dex: 18
Con: 12
WIs: 8
Int: 10
Cha: 14

As your starting point.  Then you have 4 more points to split between Str and Int.  Every 2 points in Str gives +1 damage (which tends to be very helpful for AA's since they usually have high AB but low damage) and every two points in Int gives 1 more skill point per level.

[PracticalKat]

Thanks for the feedback guys! @MM, I'd like a few more skillpoints to play with so that I don't need to rely on a rogue as a henchman. Also, since I'm investing in Cha I was thinking of trying out Cha-based skills. In addition to the ones you mentioned I want to have decent Open Lock, Persuade and Taunt as well as some in Hide and Move Silently, and the first three aren't AA skills. I enjoy the game a lot more when I have skills to use to try out different tactics.

I'm probably going to end up building the two in PGCC, equip them identically and test before deciding.

Oops on the formatting! Thanks Empyre for sorting that out.

[PracticalKat]

Thanks for the feedback guys! I'm probably going to end up building different variants in PGCC, equip them identically and test before deciding.  Maybe even try out MM's Siege of the Heavens.

@MM, I'd like a few more skillpoints to play with so that I don't need to rely on a rogue as a henchman. Also, since I'm investing in Cha I was thinking of trying out Cha-based skills. In addition to the ones you mentioned I want to have decent Open Lock, Persuade and Taunt as well as some in Hide and Move Silently, and the first three aren't AA skills.

Oops on the formatting! Thanks Empyre for sorting that out.

Modifié par brendonwp, 07 janvier 2014 - 05:40 .

[Empyre65]

Also, Listen is a nice Bard skill to have, making it harder for enemies to sneak up on you.
MM has a good point about Wisdom. In the build I tweaked, drop WIS to 8 and increase STR to 12.

Modifié par Empyre65, 07 janvier 2014 - 05:47 .

[PracticalKat]

Empyre, will do. Just a pity that Search is not a Bard skill, or I'd be virtually independent of rogue henchmen! I've got nothing against rogues, I'm just too squishy as a bard already.. I need a decent meatshield 

Modifié par brendonwp, 07 janvier 2014 - 10:09 .

[MagicalMaster]

brendonwp wrote...

In addition to the ones you mentioned I want to have decent Open Lock, Persuade and Taunt as well as some in Hide and Move Silently, and the first three aren't AA skills.

FWIW, Open Lock isn't a Bard skill OR AA skill.  Taunt also requires you to be in melee range.  Persuade and Stealth skills are fine, though, if you want to invest in those.

Empyre65 wrote...

Also, Listen is a nice Bard skill to have, making it harder for enemies to sneak up on you.
MM has a good point about Wisdom. In the build I tweaked, drop WIS to 8 and increase STR to 12.

The problem with Listen is that you have to really, really focus in it for it to be worthwhile and you're not a wisdom build.  It's very easy for stealthed characters to have high dexterity and/or items which have extra Hide/Move Silently.  Unless you want to pick up Epic Skill Focus: Listen, it's not really worth investing in.

brendonwp wrote...

Empyre, will do. Just a pity that Search is not a Bard skill, or I'd be virtually independent of rogue henchmen! I've got nothing against rogues, I'm just too squishy as a bard already.. I need a decent meatshield 

As your level goes up and your Dex/Bard SOng keeps increasing that'll be much less of a problem.

[PracticalKat]

@MM - Oh rats! Just checked the bard wiki entry and you're right about open lock. I'm sure I remember Sharwyn opening locks in the OC. I thought none of those henchmen were multiclassed, so no idea how that worked.

That make lower Int and higher Str a more attractive option then. In any case the bard levels are not at all evenly distributed, so keeping up bard skills will be difficult anyway.

[MagicalMaster]

Sharwyn might have taken cross-class skills and Bard Song can give a small skill bonus at higher levels -- with your high dexterity you could probably open most locks in the official campaigns, at least, though you may need to use lockpicks at times.

[Westan Willows]

But you have to put at least 2 skill points into open lock in order to use that skill.

[Empyre65]

If you don't want to mess with a Rogue henchman, maybe you could play as a Rogue yourself, like I did recently. Here is a tweaked version of the build I played in SoU, HotU, and Sands of Fate recently: In SoU, I had Dorna level only as Cleric, and she became quite powerful. The low Spellcraft is not a problem because Sands of Fate is such a high-magic world that you can maximize your saves with gear.

Elven Guardian (Rogue 17 / Wizard 1 / Arcane Archer 22)
Elf, Any Alignment
Playable 1 - 40, PvM

Abilities:
STR: 12
DEX: 18 (34)
CON: 14
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 8

Leveling Guide:
Elf: (Hardiness vs. Enchantments, Keen Sense, Low-light Vision, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Search, Skill Affinity: Spot, Sleeplessness)
01: Rogue(1): Point Blank Shot
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Rogue(3): Weapon Focus: Longbow, {Uncanny Dodge I}
04: Rogue(4): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
05: Rogue(5)
06: Rogue(6): Weapon Finesse
07: Rogue(7)
08: Rogue(8): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
09: Wizard(1): Called Shot, {Scribe Scroll}
10: Arcane Archer(1)
11: Arcane Archer(2)
12: Rogue(9): DEX+1, Improved Critical: Longbow, (DEX=21)
13: Arcane Archer(3)
14: Arcane Archer(4)
15: Arcane Archer(5): Blind Fight
16: Arcane Archer(6): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
17: Rogue(10): Improved Evasion
18: Arcane Archer(7): Rapid Shot
19: Arcane Archer(8)
20: Arcane Archer(9): DEX+1, (DEX=23)
21: Rogue(11): Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow
22: Arcane Archer(10)
23: Rogue(12)
24: Arcane Archer(11): DEX+1, Great Dexterity I, (DEX=25)
25: Rogue(13): Defensive Roll
26: Arcane Archer(12)
27: Rogue(14): Epic Dodge
28: Arcane Archer(13): DEX+1, (DEX=26)
29: Arcane Archer(14): Great Dexterity II, (DEX=27)
30: Arcane Archer(15): Epic Prowess
31: Arcane Archer(16)
32: Rogue(15): DEX+1, (DEX=28)
33: Arcane Archer(17): Great Dexterity III, (DEX=29)
34: Arcane Archer(18): Armor Skin
35: Arcane Archer(19)
36: Arcane Archer(20): DEX+1, Great Dexterity IV, (DEX=31)
37: Rogue(16): Skill Mastery
38: Arcane Archer(21)
39: Arcane Archer(22): Great Dexterity V, Great Dexterity VI, (DEX=33)
40: Rogue(17): DEX+1, (DEX=34)

Stats:
Hitpoints: 362
Skillpoints: 336
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 21/17/35
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +2, Mind Effects: +2, Traps: +4
BAB: 26
AB (max, naked): 39 (melee), 53 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 32/35
Spell Casting: Wizard(1)
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills:
Disable Trap 43(47), Hide 43(55), Listen 43(44), Lore 10(12), Move Silently 43(55), Open Lock 1(13), Search 38(42), Set Trap 31(45), Spellcraft 8(10), Tumble 40(52), UMD 36(35)

01: Disable Trap(4), Hide(4), Listen(4), Lore(4), Move Silently(4), Open Lock(1), Search(4), Set Trap(4), Tumble(4), UMD(4), Save(3)
02: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(4)
03: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(5)
04: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(7)
05: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(9)
06: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(11)
07: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(13)
08: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(15)
09: Spellcraft(8), Save(11)
10: Hide(2), Listen(2), Move Silently(2), Save(11)
11: Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Save(14)
12: Disable Trap(4), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Search(4), Set Trap(4), Tumble(4), UMD(4), Save(1)
13: Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Save(4)
14: Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Save(7)
15: Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Save(10)
16: Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Save(13)
17: Disable Trap(5), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Search(5), Set Trap(5), Tumble(5)
18: Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Save(3)
19: Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Save(6)
20: Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Save(9)
21: Disable Trap(4), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Search(4), Set Trap(4), Tumble(4)
22: Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Save(3)
23: Disable Trap(2), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Search(2), Set Trap(2), Tumble(2), UMD(2)
24: Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Save(3)
25: Disable Trap(2), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Search(2), Set Trap(2), Tumble(2), UMD(2)
26: Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Save(3)
27: Disable Trap(2), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Search(2), Set Trap(2), Tumble(2), UMD(2)
28: Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Save(3)
29: Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Save(6)
30: Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Save(9)
31: Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Save(12)
32: Disable Trap(5), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Search(5), Set Trap(1), Tumble(5), UMD(3)
33: Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Save(3)
34: Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Save(6)
35: Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Save(9)
36: Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Save(12)
37: Disable Trap(5), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Search(3), Tumble(5), UMD(6)
38: Hide(1), Listen(1), Lore(3), Move Silently(1)
39: Hide(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Save(2)
40: Disable Trap(3), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), UMD(6)

Modifié par Empyre65, 07 janvier 2014 - 11:54 .

[MagicalMaster]

Westan Willows wrote...

But you have to put at least 2 skill points into open lock in order to use that skill.

Since you'd be maxing out the skill anyway, I don't see the point of this statement.  At level one you'd put 4 points into Open Lock -- yes, you'd get 2 ranks instead of 4 ranks, but either way you're investing 4 points.

[Westan Willows]

What is the reason for maxing out open lock?