197 réponses à ce sujet

[Champion1]

So I'm sure this has already been thought of by other fans and BioWare staff, then been turned down because it would cost a fortune, but it won't stop buzzing in my head.

In DA2 there were three base options: dipolmatic, sarcastic, and aggressive, which were substituted on rare occasions for peaceful, charming, and absolute.  Over the course of the game many players like myself realized that 99% of the time these options were tied to being helpful, inqusitive, and uncooperative, respectively.  In some conversations you had the chance to say no or perform an action, but otherwise the game continued on its way.  But what if those three weren't tied together?  Instead there could be nine options: diplomatic helpful, diplomatic inquistive, diplomatic uncooperative, sarcastic helpful, sarcastic inquistive, sarcastic uncooperative, aggressive helpful, aggressive inquistive, and aggressive uncooperative.  The first, fifth, and last are what we already have, but I think making the other six options could make the idea of a dominant voice more refined if BioWare ever wanted to try it again, or if not just give the player a more personal feeling when talking through the PC.

Obviously it's too late in the game to work something like this into DA:I, but opinions?

[Kikidori]

I rather have the dialogue wheel show the entire line of dialogue your character will say (With the help of subtitles above, which you can turn off) so you get an idea of what you will say, and how you will say it. Rather than be like "Stop it!" Option becomes "Shut up, your spineless minion of weakness!" I just wanted to tell them to stop messing around, not insult them and sound like a ******.

[CybAnt1]

OK: here's a crazy idea.

How about a dialogue tree where there are several responses, and it's not necessarily the case that there are three and only three responses, one being aggressive, one being joking, and one being diplomatic? Oh and when you pick one, your character sometimes says something verbally that's quite different from what you just picked.

NOT a dialogue wheel fan. Just not.

And if the player sometimes needs a clue that what they're saying has a certain tone or nature, just use brackets? So that to indicate that the response is flirty/romantic, just put it in brackets? I know the big complaint is that I guess people ended up flirting with their companions without realizing they were doing it -- well there's a simple solution.

"[Romantic] Oh Zevran what nice ears you have?"

Guess what system that was? Oh yeah: the Origins system, and yes I'd like it back.

I liked options like this:

"[Persuade] Give me the nug."
"[Coercion] Give me the nug or else."
[Lie] That's my nug you have there"
[Combat] That's it, no more mister nice guy, you've got my nug and you're dead."
[Stealth/Distraction] "Hey look over there (take the nug while he's not looking)"

I just think a dialogue TREE is better for a world where people have more than 3 emotional states, and more than 3 generic ways of responding to something.

If I had to choose between a silent protagonist, and one that seems strangely constrained in the way he interacts with people, I guess I'm still part of that weirdo minority that PREFERS the FIRST option. There is this thing called imagination, it used to be part of game playing, I can IMAGINE him in my head saying things the way I picture it. In turn, I get more choices as to how he responds to the world around him.

[PorcelynDoll]

Kikidori wrote...

I rather have the dialogue wheel show the entire line of dialogue your character will say (With the help of subtitles above, which you can turn off) so you get an idea of what you will say, and how you will say it. Rather than be like "Stop it!" Option becomes "Shut up, your spineless minion of weakness!" I just wanted to tell them to stop messing around, not insult them and sound like a ******.

Me too. It was so infuritating in 2 to pick a line because you wanted to say that and then something different comes out of the character's mouth. The dialouge wheel is here to stay and that's fine but it would be nice if the paraphrase would be accurate.

[Champion1]

Of the two, yes I'd like the DA:O system back as well. I love having your stats effect what your character is capable of saying, though I also like what Mike Laidlaw talked about with breaking the Coercion skill tree into less "I'm charming so do as I say" and more "I've studied about [X], so I get more dialogue options when talking about [X]."  Since the DA team is vehemently against bring the DA:O system back for whatever reason, just thought I'd drop an idea I had. Please don't turn this into another "Silent vs Voiced Protagonist" thing, since that's what's really been beaten to death. I'd rather see the topic die.

Modifié par Champion1, 03 janvier 2014 - 04:28 .

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Silent protagonist isn't coming back, doesn't look right in a 3rd person game anyway imo.

[Fortlowe]

Champion1 wrote...

So I'm sure this has already been thought of by other fans and BioWare staff, then been turned down because it would cost a fortune, but it won't stop buzzing in my head.

In DA2 there were three base options: dipolmatic, sarcastic, and aggressive, which were substituted on rare occasions for peaceful, charming, and absolute.  Over the course of the game many players like myself realized that 99% of the time these options were tied to being helpful, inqusitive, and uncooperative, respectively.  In some conversations you had the chance to say no or perform an action, but otherwise the game continued on its way.  But what if those three weren't tied together?  Instead there could be nine options: diplomatic helpful, diplomatic inquistive, diplomatic uncooperative, sarcastic helpful, sarcastic inquistive, sarcastic uncooperative, aggressive helpful, aggressive inquistive, and aggressive uncooperative.  The first, fifth, and last are what we already have, but I think making the other six options could make the idea of a dominant voice more refined if BioWare ever wanted to try it again, or if not just give the player a more personal feeling when talking through the PC.

Obviously it's too late in the game to work something like this into DA:I, but opinions?

If only.

[Eurypterid]

Threat300 wrote...

Silent protagonist isn't coming back, doesn't look right in a 3rd person game anyway imo.

Fired up DA:O a few days ago and am about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way through. After playing for hours, I can say I far prefer the silent protagonist with the dialog tree.

[Veruin]

The dialogue wheel as a concept is fine. Bioware just used it pretty badly in DA2.

Modifié par Veruin, 03 janvier 2014 - 05:01 .

[CybAnt1]

You know, I really don't want to have to take sides in the voiced vs. unvoiced protagonist debate. It's not like I'm against having a voiced protagonist. But I AM against the dialogue wheel, and unfortunately it seems everyone, most notably the devs, seem to say there's no way to get rid of it and have a voiced protag .... so .... here I am stuck with advocating against something I'm not really against.

[KC_Prototype]

CybAnt1 wrote...

OK: here's a crazy idea.

How about a dialogue tree where there are several responses, and it's not necessarily the case that there are three and only three responses, one being aggressive, one being joking, and one being diplomatic? Oh and when you pick one, your character sometimes says something verbally that's quite different from what you just picked.

NOT a dialogue wheel fan. Just not.

And if the player sometimes needs a clue that what they're saying has a certain tone or nature, just use brackets? So that to indicate that the response is flirty/romantic, just put it in brackets? I know the big complaint is that I guess people ended up flirting with their companions without realizing they were doing it -- well there's a simple solution.

"[Romantic] Oh Zevran what nice ears you have?"

Guess what system that was? Oh yeah: the Origins system, and yes I'd like it back.

I liked options like this:

"[Persuade] Give me the nug."
"[Coercion] Give me the nug or else."
[Lie] That's my nug you have there"
[Combat] That's it, no more mister nice guy, you've got my nug and you're dead."
[Stealth/Distraction] "Hey look over there (take the nug while he's not looking)"

I just think a dialogue TREE is better for a world where people have more than 3 emotional states, and more than 3 generic ways of responding to something.

If I had to choose between a silent protagonist, and one that seems strangely constrained in the way he interacts with people, I guess I'm still part of that weirdo minority that PREFERS the FIRST option. There is this thing called imagination, it used to be part of game playing, I can IMAGINE him in my head saying things the way I picture it. In turn, I get more choices as to how he responds to the world around him.

**** that! Dialogue wheel FTW!

[Veruin]

CybAnt1 wrote...

You know, I really don't want to have to take sides in the voiced vs. unvoiced protagonist debate. It's not like I'm against having a voiced protagonist. But I AM against the dialogue wheel, and unfortunately it seems everyone, most notably the devs, seem to say there's no way to get rid of it and have a voiced protag .... so .... here I am stuck with advocating against something I'm not really against.

The dialogue wheel and voice protag are not required to use the other.  

[In Exile]

CybAnt1 wrote...
I liked options like this:

"[Persuade] Give me the nug."
"[Coercion] Give me the nug or else."
[Lie] That's my nug you have there"
[Combat] That's it, no more mister nice guy, you've got my nug and you're dead."
[Stealth/Distraction] "Hey look over there (take the nug while he's not looking)"

I just think a dialogue TREE is better for a world where people have more than 3 emotional states, and more than 3 generic ways of responding to something.

I don't know what game you played, but DA:O was nothing like this. Not even New Vegas, which heavily relies on dialogue skills (especially compared to DA:O) doesn't come close to having so many options. 

Not to mention that, ignoring the steal option, DA2 had multiple situations exactly like that. 

So while your post is clever and all, it's pretty wrong on two counts: (1) Describing what DA:O was like; (2) Describing what DA2 was like. 

[CybAnt1]

Veruin wrote...
The dialogue wheel and voice protag are not required to use the other.  

Cool! Then it's all over! Ditch the f'n wheel, keep a voiced protag, and I'm happy! 

Whatever. It's a non-debate; as I recall, we're getting something new, a "reaction wheel" which may ... reinvent the wheel, I suppose. I guess we'll see. 

Is it wrong that I want my character to be capable of more than 3 emotional states or responses to every situation?

This was the core of what bugged me about "the wheel". I don't think every situation is best met with choosing between funny, diplomatic, or aggressive. There should be more options.

Modifié par CybAnt1, 03 janvier 2014 - 11:34 .

[CybAnt1]

Ap7HR.jpg

Not sure how embed images works on this forum, but this link I think illustrates the difference.

I know which I prefer. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 03 janvier 2014 - 11:46 .

[In Exile]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Ap7HR.jpg

Not sure how embed images works on this forum, but this link I think illustrates the difference.

I know which I prefer. 

My favourite part of DA:O was when I played a fixed gendered male protagonist in a surrealist D&D setting back at the turn of the millennium. It's almost like this is an intellectually  bankrupt post with no applicability. 

[CybAnt1]

I'm not saying that was a DA:O dialogue tree, but it does show that a dialogue tree can have more complexity than a wheel with a bunch of short phrases "paraphrasing" what your character is about to say.

You can still have dialogic complexity, without having to have a protagonist fixed in gender, race, 'alignment', or anything else.

I know, call me crazy, but I really want to actually dialogue with people in an RPG using complex words that express complex thoughts, not just pick from "jokey, peaceful, mad."

[ianvillan]

Is the dialogue wheel able to be made so we know what would be said. Bioware have repeatedly said that they have heard the complaints from fans not knowing what will be said and that they will fix it in the next game.

After ME1 Bioware they would make it better, then ME2 came out exactly the same with the same bad paraphrasing, Bioware then said they heard the problems and would make it better, then ME3 came out and the dialogue wheel was in my opinion worse then before.

Before the release of DA2 fans were worried about the dialogue wheel and Bioware said they had looked at Mass Effect and would make the wheel for DA2 better so fans would know what was being chosen, yet we got the icons that were just different red/blue Mass Effect icons. The paraphrasing was still the same and fans were still choosing things that were totally different than what they thought they were getting.

The dialogue wheel must be an inherently flawed system if after all the games it is not able to be improved and still has the same problems it had before even after Biowares continual attempts to make it work better.

[Sully13]

Screw all that you need a sassy gay option because thats the one im going to use.

[O_OotherSide]

I don't see why we can't have a tree with the three personality choices in parentheses and the inquisitive options all written out.

[Sully13]

Four options don't forget the sassy Gay option.

[Paul E Dangerously]

People also forget how so many of DAO's options just led to the same NPC dialogue anyway, no matter what you chose.

Also, someone using Planescape: Torment as an example is screwy, because it's an aberration even among D&D games. It's by far the most dialogue driven RPG of that era.

A silent protagonist just won't work with the style of games Bioware does these days. It looks awkward if you're ever going to show the protagonist up close anywhere near a conversation and just standing there gaping like a fish. It
worked for older games because you had at best a zoomed-out sprite and portrait, but once you change camera angles..yeah.

Modifié par Sopa de Gato, 04 janvier 2014 - 01:27 .

[Sully13]

Or just here me out on this.. use a voiceless protagonist.

[Guns]

I'd rather have a silent protagonist with a dialogue tree than a talking character with a wheel any day.