197 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I wouldn't object to this... provided there are enough options that allow me to deliver the same dialogue in a number of different ways. It would be a total train wreck to try and actually create all this content, but it would be theoretically possible. More of a burden of juggling the sheer volume than a constraint on resources.

There are only so many variants a game can support. You get a few different ways of expressing an idea, with some wording differences. And that's it. No game has ever given more freedom than that. It's only blatant reality denial - the kind of reasoning that's actively ridiculed IRL if applied to anything - allows people to say that text allows for this. 

Admitting defeat and just resigning to the fact that video games can never be engaging emotionally or not have a set protagonist just seems incredibly depressing to me, is all.

I didn't say that. I just don't think the kind of make-believe freedom that people talk up about text-based games exist. There's lots of variants and templates of a single character, and some games do this better than others, but everything is bounded. There are only so many variants a game can support. 

[David7204]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The ability to be anything other than different shades of the set protagonist Bioware made is just the rule with a voiced protagonist.

That is just nonsense. You think the voice is somehow the one and only hurdle seperating you from this?

[Il Divo]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Admitting defeat and just resigning to the fact that video games can never be engaging emotionally or not have a set protagonist just seems incredibly depressing to me, is all.

Depressing, or logical? I could see your point if the game made some effort to actively support your playstyle.

But first consider that what happens in gameplay is never given any narrative weight. Yeah, you can have your PC run away from all the evil characters (which is a pain in the ass for gameplay), but it loses all weight when everyone talks about how great a leader or how amazing a fighter you are. Cowardly PCs, barring excessive headcanon, don't exist in any Bioware game I've ever played.

[Il Divo]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

You can have your PC run away from any and all enemies, having your companions mop them up. You can choose dialogue lines that are ambiguous enough to work. You can also do like Sylvius did, where he purposesfully set up a Game Over scenario where your PC dies and lost, making that the end of their story.

Which is a huge pain in the ass, especially on console, aside from which is never acknowledged by any character ever. I addressed this in my previous post. If I'm at the point where I have to make up conversations with characters in my head that never happened, then I can do the same when dealing with VO.

Any cowardly PC wouldn't make it past their Origin, let alone the rest of DA:O (or any other Bioware game).

Modifié par Il Divo, 04 janvier 2014 - 10:43 .

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
You can have your PC run away from any and all enemies, having your companions mop them up.

It doesn't matter. The game still treats you - and refers to you - as a legendary badd-ass. Your intro as a human noble as a warrior, for example, is about how brave and martial you are. The City Elf Origin is all about how (a) you are brave and self-determined, unlike your peers and like your mother and ( have unparalleled martial prowess. 

In fact, Duncan recruits you because of what oustanding martial prowess you have in every origin but the mage one, where you are an unparallaled magical talent. 

You can choose dialogue lines that are ambiguous enough to work. You can also do like Sylvius did, where he purposesfully set up a Game Over scenario where your PC dies and lost, making that the end of their story.

Active reality denial is not something the game supports. I can boot up DA2, close the game when the Ogre kills me, and then imagine that a time-portal opened up and Shepard and Garrus burst through and ended the blight using their sniper rifles. 

Yes, it involves headcanon. Yes, it is not playing as designed by the developers. That doesn't make it impossible. And it can be seen as a challenge, where being able to pull this off and finding it successful is rewarding to some. Just like Soloing the game on Nightmare, despite it being a party-based game - the enjoyment is in the challenge.  

It's impossible. I can imagine that Duncan never died at Ostagar and is in fact with the party the entire game - it's totally a "challenge", but so what? Hell, I can imagine (like that thread that was closed) that Essos is another continent in Thedas, and that after Ostagar the game ends because Alistair and the Warden get married, drink "super power juice" and then user their laser vision to fight the Others and enter a poly relationship with Jon Snow and Daenerys. 

The ability to be anything other than different shades of the set protagonist Bioware made is just the rule with a voiced protagonist. 

It's always possible to actively deny reality and live in a fantasy conconstructed in your own head. The VO doesn't prevent that - it's that people actually recognize how absurd doing that is with a VO'd PC instead of a silent one. 

[Fast Jimmy]

In Exile wrote...

There are only so many variants a game can support. You get a few different ways of expressing an idea, with some wording differences. And that's it. No game has ever given more freedom than that. It's only blatant reality denial - the kind of reasoning that's actively ridiculed IRL if applied to anything - allows people to say that text allows for this.

I'll screenshot the below BG mod:



It's possible to do. 11 dialogue options are a LOT. Was it in the standard game? No. It was done by a modder with some spare time (let alone a AAA development studio if they really wanted to). 

Could anyone, in the history of anywhere, do such a thing with a voiced protagonist? No. They could not.

Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it's not possible. It just means no one is doing it. Back in the 90's, there were limits to how much text you could put in a game, not to mention much smaller budgets and much more rudimentary tools. If someone had a development budget of one of the bigger Kickstarters, a text based game could do exactly this - lots of options with lots of variations. And even lots of reactions to said dialogue choices. 

So it's not impossible. It might not be a huge seller that earns its money back twofold, but it is possible. The voiced PC makes this inherently impossible.

I didn't say that. I just don't think the kind of make-believe freedom that people talk up about text-based games exist. There's lots of variants and templates of a single character, and some games do this better than others, but everything is bounded. There are only so many variants a game can support. 

They are bounded in the way they are designed, yes... but not in the way they can be played. Not entirely, at least. 

Again - you are saying it is impossible. It is not. You just don't like having to fill in the gaps to make it so.

[Fast Jimmy]

Il Divo wrote...

Which is a huge pain in the ass

I never once claimed it was easy.

, especially on console,

I'm not sure it was exactly a cake walk on PC, either.

aside from which is never acknowledged by any character ever.

Neither is the fact that you are a Blood Mage. Point?

I addressed this in my previous post. If I'm at the point where I have to make up conversations with characters in my head that never happened, then I can do the same when dealing with VO.

Any cowardly PC wouldn't make it past their Origin, let alone the rest of DA:O (or any other Bioware game).

A Human Noble always has a companion, either their mabari or a servant, during the Origin. It basically consists of you running away. As a spoiled noble, it would be entirely possible to envision a character that is pampered all of their life and fearful of any danger, especially after going through the ordeal of losing their entire family.

Just as an example.

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'll screenshot the below BG mod:

It's possible to do. 11 dialogue options are a LOT. Was it in the standard game? No. It was done by a modder with some spare time (let alone a AAA development studio if they really wanted to). 

Could anyone, in the history of anywhere, do such a thing with a voiced protagonist? No. They could not.

I think this is kind of a funny example. You show me a mod - so not something that the developers did, or scripted, or wrote, or otherwise prepared - and then declare that's something that a text-based game could do but not a voiced-protagonist game. 

Of course they could do this with a voiced protagonist - it would just be expensive. For example, Bioware could cut out all party-based NPCs, just make the game about the PC travelling alone, and then use the entire word and VO budget solely for the PC. Voila - it's done! 

But it's quite informative that the only game that's ever done something like this was PS:T, and that was a commercial flop. 

If someone had a development budget of one of the bigger Kickstarters, a text based game could do exactly this - lots of options with lots of variations. And even lots of reactions to said dialogue choices.  

Let's see if Project Eternity ever does this. In fact, let's see if the new Tornment game ever does something like this. 

So it's not impossible. It might not be a huge seller that earns its money back twofold, but it is possible. The voiced PC makes this inherently impossible.

Again, that's just wrong. It's entirely possible to do this with a voiced PC. You can even do it in a AAA game. You just have to choose what you cut. Now, you might say it's not worth doing that. Sure, I'd agree. But that's not "impossible". 

Again - you are saying it is impossible. It is not. You just don't like having to fill in the gaps to make it so. 

No, I'm saying it requires the kind of reasoning that IRL that's ridiculed. I'm filling all the gaps with time travelling Shepard and Garrus, both of whom are there to defeat the Blight. The Warden is just a coward who's taking the credit for Shepard's unparalleled heroism. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Your intro as a human noble as a warrior, for example, is about how brave and martial you are.

About how people have HEARD you are.

What arl wouldn't consider lying that his weakling heir is in fact a dangerous warrior?

The City Elf Origin is all about how (a) you are brave and self-determined, unlike your peers and like your mother and ( have unparalleled martial prowess.

It wouldn't work for every Origin. You can't play a Blood Mage in every Origin either. But you can RP a Mage who is lured into the power of Blood Magic.

Active reality denial is not something the game supports. I can boot up DA2, close the game when the Ogre kills me, and then imagine that a time-portal opened up and Shepard and Garrus burst through and ended the blight using their sniper rifles.

Given how incredibly undefined things ended after ME3, you might as well do this. The game's complete lack of definition means you can headcanon anything you dang well please.

And if the game doesn't actively prevent it, it passively supports it. Just like if there isn't a law that says I can't wear a clown suit every Wednesday, then that means I can, if I abide by the other restrictions and known social and legal barriers I encounter along the way.

It's always possible to actively deny reality and live in a fantasy conconstructed in your own head. The VO doesn't prevent that - it's that people actually recognize how absurd doing that is with a VO'd PC instead of a silent one.

How would one do this, exactly? Aside from using mental instability, that your character is either psychotic and yells out things they don't mean or has a form of Turrette's?

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
A Human Noble always has a companion, either their mabari or a servant, during the Origin. It basically consists of you running away. As a spoiled noble, it would be entirely possible to envision a character that is pampered all of their life and fearful of any danger, especially after going through the ordeal of losing their entire family.

Except for the part that you participated in military tournaments and are a peerless soldier, a respect leader, and someone so brilliant that most talk about your father passing over Fergus to name you heir to the Teyrn's seat. Or that, alternatively, you're someone with an extensive knowledge of poisons and killing. 

The game actively works against this. 

[Il Divo]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Neither is the fact that you are a Blood Mage. Point?

Pretty sure you just made it. It's not acknowledged, it's not a role-playing option. Seems a straightforward enough distinction.

Though for the Blood-Mage I will say that is at least acknowledged once via the demon who grants you the ability.

A Human Noble always has a companion, either their mabari or a servant, during the Origin. It basically consists of you running away. As a spoiled noble, it would be entirely possible to envision a character that is pampered all of their life and fearful of any danger, especially after going through the ordeal of losing their entire family.

No, this is simply an example of you being difficult, beyond comprehension. Unless you intend to create in your head conversations which never actually happen, this doesn't work. Do you plan to ignore every time some companion compliments you on your combat skills? Your knowledge of magic? The fact that you're regarded .as the best damn fighter ever? The fact that you're forced to accompany your squad on treks through the Deep Roads? Ah, but your PC is secretly a coward.

If we follow your logic, we can ignore any and all facts the game presents us in lieu of our own headcanon. Mass Effect allows a cowardly PC. All you have to do is ignore everything Shepard says/does and imagine your own interactions in its place. A game doesn't "support" a play-style if you have to navigate your way around the system to create the possibility.

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

About how people have HEARD you are.

What arl wouldn't consider lying that his weakling heir is in fact a dangerous warrior?

You are the Champion in a tournament. Peerless warrior: it's an objective fact. 

It wouldn't work for every Origin. You can't play a Blood Mage in every Origin either. But you can RP a Mage who is lured into the power of Blood Magic.

It doesn't work for any origin. The very premise of DA:O is that you're a badass normal recruited in the GWs for being a badass normal. 

How would one do this, exactly? Aside from using mental instability, that your character is either psychotic and yells out things they don't mean or has a form of Turrette's?

Nope. You never said those words. The NPCs didn't hear that noise. They're reacting to something else you said off-screen. Just like Duncan is alive and the human noble is a coward. 

[Il Divo]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
About how people have HEARD you are.

What arl wouldn't consider lying that his weakling heir is in fact a dangerous warrior??

Again, great ideas, terrible role-playing.

One conversation in with Duncan should reveal how idiotic this is as a concept. Your parents (willingly) sending you with Duncan should reveal how idiotic a concept this is.

Modifié par Il Divo, 04 janvier 2014 - 11:05 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
A Human Noble always has a companion, either their mabari or a servant, during the Origin. It basically consists of you running away. As a spoiled noble, it would be entirely possible to envision a character that is pampered all of their life and fearful of any danger, especially after going through the ordeal of losing their entire family.

Except for the part that you participated in military tournaments and are a peerless soldier, a respect leader, and someone so brilliant that most talk about your father passing over Fergus to name you heir to the Teyrn's seat. Or that, alternatively, you're someone with an extensive knowledge of poisons and killing. 

The game actively works against this.

Human Noble is my least favourite origin for this very reason.

[Fast Jimmy]

In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
A Human Noble always has a companion, either their mabari or a servant, during the Origin. It basically consists of you running away. As a spoiled noble, it would be entirely possible to envision a character that is pampered all of their life and fearful of any danger, especially after going through the ordeal of losing their entire family.

Except for the part that you participated in military tournaments and are a peerless soldier, a respect leader, and someone so brilliant that most talk about your father passing over Fergus to name you heir to the Teyrn's seat. Or that, alternatively, you're someone with an extensive knowledge of poisons and killing. 

The game actively works against this. 

You aren't given the background of these tournaments. It's entirely possible that you had people paid to lose to you. 

And since when is having knowledge of poisons instantly not someone who can be a coward? 

And "many" people showering praise consist of vassals of your father. Surely you can imagine a scenario where people would either be easily tricked into believing such a thing were true by virtue of reputation alone, or just outright lying to attmept flattery and not incur the arl's wrath?

Again - mental gymnastics, I'll readily admit. But nowhere are you forced by the game to say "I am a chivalrous knight without fear!" Yet you can be forced (or, rather, tricked, I suppose) to having your voiced character say something just as breaking to your character. Something which you admit.

It comes down to preference, ultimately. You prefer that Bioware fill the gaps in for you with a voice if you can never have a character you can completely control. I prefer the gaps be filled in with imagination or flexibility, so that a truly "outside the box" character could be possible. But it's not preference to say you can do more with a silent PC than you can a voiced one, from sheer logistics alone. Good writing can equate a voiced performance, but no voice can equal the open-endedness of text.



At the end of the day, more foreknowledge and understanding using the voice is ultimately what I would want for the DA series, since we won't get a silent PC back, to get this back on topic. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 04 janvier 2014 - 11:57 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Il Divo wrote...

Pretty sure you just made it. It's not acknowledged, it's not a role-playing option. Seems a straightforward enough distinction.

Though for the Blood-Mage I will say that is at least acknowledged once via the demon who grants you the ability.

The game not reacting to it doesn't make it a NOT a role-playing decision. 

No, this is simply an example of you being difficult, beyond comprehension. Unless you intend to create in your head conversations which never actually happen, this doesn't work.

Assuming every conversation that happens in the entire game is shown is silly. Are we assuming that in the weeks/months of DA:O (or the years of DA2), the game shows every conversation you have with the NPCs you encounter? The game tells you this isn't true - Hawke doesn't become a mute for years on end, nor does the Warden not have conversations with others aside from the maybe 300 or so they have across DA:O. I have that many conversations in a WEEK.

Do you plan to ignore every time some companion compliments you on your combat skills? Your knowledge of magic? The fact that you're regarded .as the best damn fighter ever? The fact that you're forced to accompany your squad on treks through the Deep Roads? Ah, but your PC is secretly a coward.

I'd argue you don't have to go to the Deep Roads at all.

If we follow your logic, we can ignore any and all facts the game presents us in lieu of our own headcanon. Mass Effect allows a cowardly PC. All you have to do is ignore everything Shepard says/does and imagine your own interactions in its place. A game doesn't "support" a play-style if you have to navigate your way around the system to create the possibility.

Ignoring what your own character says is the problem. You can have your character interpret the world any way you see fit, but when the character themselves starts breaking the rules/mold you've made for them, then the entire exercise cannot work.

[Il Divo]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

You aren't given the background of these tournaments. It's entirely possible that you had people paid to lose to you. 

And since when is having knowledge of poisons instantly not someone who can be a coward? 

And "many" people showering praise consist of vassals of your father. Surely you can imagine a scenario where people would either be easily tricked into believing such a thing were true by virtue of reputation alone, or just outright lying to attmept flattery and not incur the arl's wrath?

As opposed to say, Morrigan never remarking on how much of a coward your PC is? Or Duncan? Or Alistair while gathering the darkspawn blood?

Again - mental gymnastics, I'll readily admit. But nowhere are you forced by the game to say "I am a chivalrous knight without fear!" Yet you can be forced (or, rather, tricked, I suppose) to having your voiced character say something just as breaking to your character. Something which you admit.

This is a terrible point, considering you've already admitted to the use of mental gymnastics. Why would the game forcing your character to say X have any relevance, when you're headcanoning away anything which contradicts your fantasy?

If we can accept the Warden as a coward despite every character and his mother thinking you're a charismatic, brilliant fighter, then you shouldn't have much trouble ignoring contradictory dialogue.

It comes down to preference, ultimately. You prefer that Bioware fill the gaps in for you with a voice if you can never have a character you can completely control. I prefer the gaps be filled in with imagination or flexibility, so that a truly "outside the box" character could be possible. But it's not preference to say you can do more with a silent PC than you can a voiced one, from sheer logistics alone. Good writing can equate a voiced performance, but no voice can equal the open-endedness of text.

Not really. A more accurate summation of what you're doing is erasing some of the filled gaps while claiming they were left open, which can also be done with VO.  

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

In fact, Duncan recruits you because of what oustanding martial prowess you have in every origin but the mage one, where you are an unparallaled magical talent.

This isn't how I remember it at all.

In the Dwarf Noble and City Elf origins, you demonstrate your ability to get out of dangerous situations, but Duncan never really knows how you do that.

In the Dalish Elf origin, you get yourself poisoned, and at no point demonstrate effectiveness.  Being a skilled hunter does not equal being a skilled warrior.

In the Dwarf Commoner origin, you do demonstrate martial prowess, but you do it within the game, so its actually something that you make your character do (which should be how everything works).

And in the Mage origin, I don't remember anyone talking about you being an unparalleled magical talent.

Only in the Human Noble origin does the game assign you a particularly rigid background with regard to your behaviour, but even then your motives are left up to you.

Active reality denial is not something the game supports. I can boot up DA2, close the game when the Ogre kills me, and then imagine that a time-portal opened up and Shepard and Garrus burst through and ended the blight using their sniper rifles.

DA2 very explicitly supports active reality denial through the use of the unreliable narrator.  In my DA2 headcanon, Hawke was the serial killer - he needed subjects for his Avernus-style magical research.  It was Hawke who blew up the Chantry.  Bu then Varric goes all Verbal Kint and makes up a detailed cover story to confound the authorities.

It's impossible. I can imagine that Duncan never died at Ostagar and is in fact with the party the entire game - it's totally a "challenge", but so what? Hell, I can imagine (like that thread that was closed) that Essos is another continent in Thedas, and that after Ostagar the game ends because Alistair and the Warden get married, drink "super power juice" and then user their laser vision to fight the Others and enter a poly relationship with Jon Snow and Daenerys.

Didn't you just demonstrate that it isn't impossible?

It's always possible to actively deny reality and live in a fantasy conconstructed in your own head. The VO doesn't prevent that - it's that people actually recognize how absurd doing that is with a VO'd PC instead of a silent one.

But with the VO, there's an extra step, in that you have to actively deny things you see and hear happen.  With a silent protagonist, you're just filling in gaps.  You never have to contradict the game with a silent protagonist.

To be fair, you shouldn't have to do it with the voiced protagonist, either.  It's only the obfuscatory paraphrase system that makes that necessary.

This is just like the discussions we had about how the ME2 interrupt system breaks characters by forcing the players to make choices without first telling them what they're choosing.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Il Divo wrote...

As opposed to say, Morrigan never remarking on how much of a coward your PC is? Or Duncan? Or Alistair while gathering the darkspawn blood?

We don't know that they don't.  We just never see them do it.

This is the important difference.  Things we see happen, do happen.  Things we don't see happen, might happen.

This is how knowledge works.  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  We can't ever know for sure that something isn't occurring.  As Bertrand Russell put it, we cannot prove that there is not a rhinoceros in the room.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

You aren't given the background of these tournaments. It's entirely possible that you had people paid to lose to you.

Well done.

[Fast Jimmy]

Il Divo wrote...

Not really. A more accurate summation of what you're doing is erasing some of the filled gaps while claiming they were left open, which can also be done with VO.  

"Erasing" and "explaining away" are two totally different activities. 

Erasing the fact that Hawke says he believes in the Maker and wishes his mother is at his side is nearly impossible to do when your Hawke is supposed to not believe in the Maker and thinks his mother is worm food. 

Imagining a scenario where a lord would lie about his fighting ability and where others falsely bolster that reputation out of sycophantic flattery is not hard to imagine at all. In fact, it has been done so many times in medieval fantasy settings, it is practically a literary tool.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Il Divo wrote...

No, this is simply an example of you being difficult, beyond comprehension. Unless you intend to create in your head conversations which never actually happen, this doesn't work.

This is much of my gameplay in these games.  I routinely invent conversations that take place off-camera.

Ah, but your PC is secretly a coward.

Why does it have to be a secret?

I have a Warden PC who never participated in combat unless he was the only one there.  Aside from the origin and the fade, he never fought anything.  Not one thing.

If we follow your logic, we can ignore any and all facts the game presents us in lieu of our own headcanon. Mass Effect allows a cowardly PC. All you have to do is ignore everything Shepard says/does and imagine your own interactions in its place. A game doesn't "support" a play-style if you have to navigate your way around the system to create the possibility.

I don't think we should have to ignore anything the game says.  We just have to fill in the gaps between those things.

DA2 doesn't leave predictable gaps.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

"Erasing" and "explaining away" are two totally different activities.

Exactly.  In one, you're denying reality.  In the other, you're simply interpreting that reality differently.  You're not claiming that something we've seen occur didn't happen - you're just claiming that the explanation for that occurence is not as obvious as it might appear.

I find formal logic extremely helpful with this.  It shows us what we know to be true, and what we don't know to be true.  Everything we don't know is an opportunity for us to invent something.

And we don't know much.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Except for the part that you participated in military tournaments and are a peerless soldier, a respect leader, and someone so brilliant that most talk about your father passing over Fergus to name you heir to the Teyrn's seat. Or that, alternatively, you're someone with an extensive knowledge of poisons and killing.

Why is Fergus being passed over?  Do we know this?

Maybe he has a dark secret.  Maybe he's a vile blackmailer.  Maybe he's a mage, and the Teyrn is trying to hide this.

[Il Divo]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The game not reacting to it doesn't make it a NOT a role-playing decision. 

I'm afraid it does.

Assuming every conversation that happens in the entire game is shown is silly. Are we assuming that in the weeks/months of DA:O (or the years of DA2), the game shows every conversation you have with the NPCs you encounter? The game tells you this isn't true - Hawke doesn't become a mute for years on end, nor does the Warden not have conversations with others aside from the maybe 300 or so they have across DA:O. I have that many conversations in a WEEK.

If the only encounters which occur do so in you're brain, you're not role-playing. You're writing. Role-playing is built on a fundamental action-reaction dynamic. This is the purpose of the DM and other characters in pen and paper, to provide an outside influence to acknowledge and respond to your stimuli.

If I wanted to write a story, I'd be making a novel.

Ignoring what your own character says is the problem. You can have your character interpret the world any way you see fit, but when the character themselves starts breaking the rules/mold you've made for them, then the entire exercise cannot work.

If you'd like to write a story, you're in the wrong medium. Writers control every fabric of the universe. A role-player experiences one end of that dynamic.