75 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Reorte wrote...
If the "damaged but not wiped out" idea also removed the Reaper upgrades from the geth you'd keep the interesting part but it seems rather too neat and contrived, although it's actually marginally more believable than wiping them out altogether.

It would probably have to be one or the other.  Either the geth get decimated or lose the Reaper upgrades.  If both happened, there probably wouldn't be enough geth left for the consensus to retain sentience.

 Or if they could there's be, like a dozen platforms active tops.

Edit:  though simply having hte geth lose their upgrades would be interesting as well.  Reverting them back to a consensus would make them a more alien life form.  They'd be harder to understand and, by extension, to make peace with.

Modifié par iakus, 03 janvier 2014 - 09:27 .

[PsyrenY]

I honestly see no reason for the Geth to lose their upgrades. Being decimated would be more than enough of a setback.

AlanC9 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
Why it's better than Control/Synthesis as presented: Whatever else the blue and green endings mean for the galaxy, they both mean one thing - a fleet of super-advanced AI-piloted dreadnaughts on our side that can solve any plot problem serious enough to be worth the name in a moment's notice. If the problem is too small for them to be concerned with, then there is no tension as there are no stakes; if the problem is too big for them to take care of, then everyone is screwed anyway. In other words, as I said before, Control and Synthesis (as presented) are much more interesting universes to daydream or write stories about, than to play actual games in.

I don't 100% agree with this. There are a lot of serious problems that blowing everything up with a bunch of super battleships will make worse, not better.( I'm not a huge fan of another galactic apocalypse story anyway.) However, there is plenty of room to doubt that Bio has the chops to pull off such a story.

You're forgetting the Reapers' other major ability (i.e. the one besides the death rays of death.) Namely, their ability to influence someone's mind so subtly they don't even know you're doing it.

There's very, very few problems you can't solve with a combination of near perfect mental control and armada-level firepower. The Reapers don't even have to physically be present for the control one, they can simply ensure that some of their tech gets into the hands of the person they want to affect (or someone close to them at least.)

AlanC9 wrote...
But I wasn't at all clear above. I meant to question the value of compromise itself. It looks to me like you're incurring 100% of the cost of canonizing MEHEM, or even IT, without gaining 100% of the possible benefits.

What cost, and benefits, would those be?

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I'm still trying to figure out what problem is being solved by this proposal. The costs are obvious, but I don't see the benefit.

Edit: OK, I can see that it solves iakus' problem with the morality of the choices, but that's a bug, not a feature.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.  I'm not saying this scenerio "solves" anything.  But it is one i'm willing to explore.  Bascially because the possibility of a few survivors means synthetics won't simply be brushed aside.  There would be some who remembered the sacrifice made, who may not regard Shepard as "The Shepard" and who may remind the galaxy of the price exacted in defeating the Reapers.  And who may be resentful at the whitewash being done.

Think of Balak and Ghorek in ME3, calling Shepard out on the events of Arrival.  Regardless of whether or not Shepard's actons were "necessary"  there is a cost.

Agreed here. This is another positive benefit, that some people might resent Shepard's actions. Granted, I think resentment would be a much more interesting scenario under Control or Synthesis, but it could apply to this as well.

[Lvl20DM]

This is interesting. The 4 endings are different enough from one another that any game set after ME3 would need to pick one, I think. I suspect that Bioware will choose a canon ending that best serves the story they are trying to tell in ME4 or any future games in the ME universe. I suspect that, if it is a sequel, they will set the game many years in the future - this would allow the player, whether new to the series or not, to have the sense of exploring a new, strange world.

Perhaps they could make Control the canon ending (which results in the least amount of change to the universe) and find some reason for the Shep/Reaper fleet to not be involved. Perhaps the fleet leaves the known galaxy after helping rebuild, or maybe it only acts in extreme circumstances (only apocalyptic threats, not conflicts between species).

On the other hand, Destroy is similar to Control, but it annihilates the Geth and kills EDI. EDI's survival probably isn't important to ME4 (as few characters from the first trilogy are likely to appear in it). The removal of the Geth is more of a problem, I think. We know that, if you save both species, the Geth upload into Quarian suits. Perhaps the "destroy" pulse eliminates the Geth, but somehow "fuses" those uploaded into Quarian suits with their hosts, creating organic/machine hybrids (the Synthesis ending on a smaller scale). This would effectively preserve the Quarians while also keeping the legacy of the Geth in the universe. Personally, I'm not entirely sure that the Geth will even be a large part of the ME universe going forward - if they are, then destroy obviously cannot be used without substantial modification.

[AlanC9]

Optimystic_X wrote...
You're forgetting the Reapers' other major ability (i.e. the one besides the death rays of death.) Namely, their ability to influence someone's mind so subtly they don't even know you're doing it.

There's very, very few problems you can't solve with a combination of near perfect mental control and armada-level firepower. The Reapers don't even have to physically be present for the control one, they can simply ensure that some of their tech gets into the hands of the person they want to affect (or someone close to them at least.)

I didn't forget that, but since you didn't mention indoctrination I didn't bother. Note that Asimov's Second Foundation uses Indoctrination wholesale. (R.Daneel somewhat less often, but he came up with the scheme in the first place.) I could put up more examples) -- Hamilton's Sentient Intelligence, perhaps -- but unless we have some faith in Bio's ability to work within these constraints it would be a purely formal exercise.

What cost, and benefits, would those be?

I figured that people who prefer non-canon endings would prefer having those endings become canon, so there's be a benefit to having some subset of them get their way. But I'm hardly an authority on their views.

The cost of decanonizing the existing endings isn't obvious? Can I just play a personal taste card here, or do you want the whole spiel?

Modifié par AlanC9, 03 janvier 2014 - 11:14 .

[Reorte]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I honestly see no reason for the Geth to lose their upgrades. Being decimated would be more than enough of a setback.

Because the "upgrades" were what ruined the geth as an interesting alien race. Removing them and decimating them both has some impact on them as well as makes them interesting again. The whole upgrade idea, as well as being rather counter to most of what Legion said in ME2 has a huge "More like us is better!" feel to it which I find rather offensive.

[PsyrenY]

AlanC9 wrote...

I figured that people who prefer non-canon endings would prefer having those endings become canon, so there's be a benefit to having some subset of them get their way. But I'm hardly an authority on their views.

For one, you're assuming that preferring an ending means wanting it to be canon. As has been stated multiple times in this thread for instance, even those who chose Refuse and Synthesis don't want to play a game where either of those were chosen. Hell, Synthesis is far and away my favorite ending (see sig) but I'm smart enough to know that there's no way they can use it as a springboard for anything.

AlanC9 wrote...

The cost of decanonizing the existing endings isn't obvious? Can I just play a personal taste card here, or do you want the whole spiel?

I addressed it when I said people would whine (briefly) that their choices don't matter. Just like they did for KOTOR2 and ME2. Again, for me, that cost is a very small price to pay for more Mass Effect.

[Obadiah]

Just go find the Geth backups and restore them.

[Sion1138]

Total destroy.

Everything is destroyed and when you load up the game, it'll just be a black screen.

[durasteel]

Crafting an ending that will satisfy fans was a task for the Mass Effect 3 team. That time is past. The task now is to put the game universe into a state that will accommodate and encourage future Mass Effect games.

Having Geth existing on Rannoch peacefully with the Quarians provides not only opportunities for new Geth stories, but it keeps the Quarians ostracized from galactic society, which was one of the more interesting aspects of the race. How the Geth survived, or whether the Reaper code was all excised, doesn't really make a difference.

The galaxy is a more interesting place if there are Reaper survivors, too. Obviously there shouldn't be many, and there should be no practical threat of the cycle ever starting again--that's story's over.

I think maybe a partial control is an easier load to lift than partial destroy. I believe it is possible to thread between the two without committing to either, but if you were to have to choose one control would be the easier to base a return to the status quo upon. All you would need to do is to adjust the slide show factoids, which (if Dragon Age is any indication) they are very willing to do. After the blue space magic explosion, the Reapers stopped fighting... but the Turians, Krogan, Asari, Salarians, etc. didn't. Free to attack with impunity once the Reaper fleet quit shooting back, they inflicted heavy losses and only a few capital ships escaped to vanish into the void between the stars.

Their best course of action would be to remain as vague as possible about the end of the Reaper War in the next game. They should keep the story personal, and the major galactic locations low-key. For example, when the next protagonist goes to the Citadel the setting should be on one or two wards, not on the Presidium, and the NPCs the protagonist runs into there should be minding their business and not talking about the War or the reconstruction afterward.

After people become interested in the next story line, then they can address those issues as needed in future games. If it makes sense for Edi to show up in a scene in ME5, for example, no one will care much that they thought she died two games back. Same with the Geth, really. After all, no one saw them die, right?

Seriously, two games down the road, will anyone whine that something turned out different than the Reaper holo-brat said it would? I don't think so.

Modifié par durasteel, 04 janvier 2014 - 03:27 .

[AlanC9]

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
[quote]AlanC9 wrote...
I figured that people who prefer non-canon endings would prefer having those endings become canon, so there's be a benefit to having some subset of them get their way. But I'm hardly an authority on their views.[/quote]
For one, you're assuming that preferring an ending means wanting it to be canon. As has been stated multiple times in this thread for instance, even those who chose Refuse and Synthesis don't want to play a game where either of those were chosen. Hell, Synthesis is far and away my favorite ending (see sig) but I'm smart enough to know that there's no way they can use it as a springboard for anything.[/quote]
This doesn't seem to relate to my point, unless your point is only that canonizing IT or MEHEM would have zero value for IT and MEHEM fans themselves, which I suppose is conceivable. Again, I'm not qualified to judge. If the added value really is zero, then yeah, no point doing it. I was assuming that there was a benefit, and no further cost since you're already trashing the setting.

[quote]
[quote]
The cost of decanonizing the existing endings isn't obvious? Can I just play a personal taste card here, or do you want the whole spiel?[/quote]

I addressed it when I said people would whine (briefly) that their choices don't matter. Just like they did for KOTOR2 and ME2. Again, for me, that cost is a very small price to pay for more Mass Effect.[/quote]

If that cost is necessary. I don't think it is. Anyway, you asked me a question. I wasn't asking you to address anything.

[/quote]

Modifié par AlanC9, 04 janvier 2014 - 03:28 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

 Optimystic!


But I disagree with the thread. Sync 4 Canon '15. Space cyberpunk would be awesome.

[Ieldra]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
In other words, you're suggesting that they canonize MEHEM.

No thanks.

Dito. I could live with any canon ending, even those I don't like, but I'd hate it if the downsides of any one were removed in order to make the scenario more acceptable to certain fans. Especially if it was one I don't like.

That's assuming I'll have any interest in the next game at all. Which is far from assured at the moment.

Having said that, a sequel based on a Synthesis ending could be really cool. Here they'd have to add a few downsides which would plausibly exist.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 janvier 2014 - 11:25 .

[PsyrenY]

Ieldra2 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
In other words, you're suggesting that they canonize MEHEM.

No thanks.

Dito. I could live with any canon ending, even those I don't like, but I'd hate it if the downsides of any one were removed in order to make the scenario more acceptable to certain fans. Especially if it was one I don't like.

I admit I'm a bit surprised at you, Ieldra. Did you read the whole thread? Specifically the two posts (one by me and one by iakus) that pointed out the many, many differences between this proposal and MEHEM?

I mean, you're free to dismiss this as being "canon MEHEM" if you like but at least be honest and say why you think they are the same so we can try to have a debate. Whether you have any interest in ME4 or not, some level of compromise is going to be necessary to move forward.

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 Optimystic!


But I disagree with the thread. Sync 4 Canon '15. Space cyberpunk would be awesome.

Yo! 

I'm afraid I have to disagree - synthesis is not cyberpunk, not even close. Cyberpunk settings generally draw their primary source of conflict from being a dystopia - a technological wonderland with the potential to solve all the world's problems, that nevertheless possesses an extremely sharp sociopolitical divide, where most of this wondrous tech is the exclusive province of the privileged and powerful. Deus Ex and Shadowrun are shining examples of this. 

Synthesis does not fit this mold because the sociopolitical problems are either already solved in EDI's epilogue or very close to being so. Perfect cultural understanding, immortality and functional resurrection, harmony between synthetics and organics, and most of all, absolute distribution of this technology across social strata are antithetical to cyberpunk. Phrases like "peace across the galaxy and unlimited access to knowledge" are absolutely not terms you would hear in cyberpunk. 

I'm not saying that some new conflict couldn't arise in Synthesis. What I'm saying is that such a conflict would likely not be anything we could relate to. EDI paints a picture of a galaxy so far removed from mundane concerns like hunger, disease, communication barriers and scarcity that it changes genres completely into full-on fantasy.

Which is not to say that Fantasy Mass Effect is impossible to be made worth playing; just very unlikely.

[PsyrenY]

AlanC9 wrote...

This doesn't seem to relate to my point, unless your point is only that canonizing IT or MEHEM would have zero value for IT and MEHEM fans themselves, which I suppose is conceivable. Again, I'm not qualified to judge. If the added value really is zero, then yeah, no point doing it. I was assuming that there was a benefit, and no further cost since you're already trashing the setting.

My point is that I'm not canonizing MEHEM at all. "Compromise" means exactly that - nobody gets everything they want.

IT is a joke and has no business in this thread at all.

AlanC9 wrote...
If that cost is necessary. I don't think it is. Anyway, you asked me a question. I wasn't asking you to address anything.

Asked to or not, I did address the cost (fans possibly disgruntleed that the endings were tweaked again) as being negligible and worth paying.

Basically, I have no problem with the endings but I feel that Bioware wrote themselves into a corner if they do plan on continuing the franchise. Something has to give.

[crimzontearz]

Full reboot please, let's forget this ordeal

[Reorte]

Ieldra2 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
In other words, you're suggesting that they canonize MEHEM.

No thanks.

Dito. I could live with any canon ending, even those I don't like, but I'd hate it if the downsides of any one were removed in order to make the scenario more acceptable to certain fans. Especially if it was one I don't like.

If the downsides are shoved in arbitrarily in order to have downsides then good riddance to them.

[Iakus]

Optimystic_X wrote...


I admit I'm a bit surprised at you, Ieldra. Did you read the whole thread? Specifically the two posts (one by me and one by iakus) that pointed out the many, many differences between this proposal and MEHEM?

Indeed.  I mean, look at our banners.  If we can at least agree the idea is worth talking about, it's probably worth talking about 

[Wulfram]

I'd like an ending that was basically destroy but without the gratuitous Geth destruction tacked on as canon. It's the simplest way to allow the setting to move forward without too much trouble. And even the writers don't seem to be too committed to the dead geth thing, since the EC basically ignores it.

I wouldn't have Shepard surviving, though, it just creates more problem. Or at least, I wouldn't have them explicitly surviving - maybe leave enough room for head canon survival.

[General TSAR]

EDI must be neutralized, no exceptions.

[PsyrenY]

Reorte wrote...

If the downsides are shoved in arbitrarily in order to have downsides then good riddance to them.

Except it's not arbitrary. The Geth need heavy losses, both to set them back (so the organic-synthetic conflict can take a backseat in the next title), and to emphasize the brutal nature of the war. Low numbers of Geth also reduce their capability to handle the next threat, whether that is Leviathans, resurgent Krogan, ascendant Yahg or something entirely new, thus demanding more heroism/sacrifice from the player.

Erasing them totally though would do a major disservice to the franchise; they're the most interesting race in the series by far. To quote Javik: "They are more alien than you and I are to each other." Everybody else is mostly a working stiff with some minor biological quirks.

General TSAR wrote...

EDI must be neutralized, no exceptions.

Sidelined, at a minimum. (Though actually, she would make an interesting spinoff protagonist too.)

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 04 janvier 2014 - 08:59 .

[General TSAR]

Optimystic_X wrote...
Erasing them totally though would do a major disservice to the franchise

The Geth were fascinating when they were a Networked Intelligence then the Rannoch Arc happened and the machines got turned into Genocidal Pinocchios, yuck thankfully they can be permanently deactivated and removed from the story by player choice. 

Optimystic_X wrote...

Sidelined, at a minimum.

Hell no, scrapheap for the sexbot.

 (Though actually, she would make an interesting spinoff protagonist too.)

HELL NO.

Modifié par General TSAR, 04 janvier 2014 - 09:08 .

[DextroDNA]

I wouldn't mind a midquel, but a prequel is completely out of the question for me.

As for canon ending - I think instead of making a canon ending they should slightly retcon the current endings so they're not as drastic. Then come up with some plot point so that the differences between ending choice are feasible to implement into a game.

But get rid of Synthesis. Just **** that.

[Mangalores]

The Geth and EDI have been pretty much conceptually raped via storywriting. Their concepts in ME2 as entirely different kinds of intelligence (one incorporeal, the other a dynamic hive mind) were interesting, but were turned into boring stereotypes in ME3 (a hormone driven sexbot and average joe Geth who want to find their souls).

Well, Control would be indeed interesting when the new protagonist ends up being the guy to put a bullet in Shepard's non existing head to finally end the Reapers. Could make old Shepard into the tragic hero who commited all the evils of being a space dictator to prevent the apocalypse...


though it's not good to lift a storyline straight from Fable 3 I guess.

[durasteel]

Mangalores wrote...
...
though it's not good to lift a storyline straight from Fable 3 I guess.

Didn't play the Fable games, but in general it is better to steal the plot of a good story than to create your own horrible pile of poo from scratch.