224 réponses à ce sujet

[RedCaesar97]

A few things before I need to get out of the way:
1) It was really hard to come up with 4 distinct evolutions for each power and try to make them all useful and balanced. I still do not think I have it right. For the most part, I could come up with 2 or 3 good evolutions, but the 4th was the hardest. You can tell I was really stretching it for some powers.

2) I am basing enemy health/protections on the following numbers:

Health/Protections
------------------
Basic - Elite - Super Elite

Easy: 150/0 - 300/300 - 900/900
Normal: 300/300 - 900/900 - 1800/1800
Hard: 600/600 - 1800/1800 - 3600/3600

3) I want armor to give +25%/-25% bonuses. So through armor, you can get another +25% bonus to one statistic but at the cost of -25% to another statistic. Choose from: Power Damage, Health, Shields, Shield Recharge Rate.


Okay, here is my Adept. Critique away!


Warp:
Rank 1: Warp
- Base Damage: 200
- Base cooldown: 8 seconds
- Cast type: Instant
- Multipliers: Shields 300%, Barriers 300%, Armor 0%
- Can detonate lifted enemies for 250 damage, 500 force in a 3m radius
- Combo multipliers: Shields 300%, Barriers 300%, Armor 100%

Rank 2: Recharge Speed
- Recharge speed -25%

Rank 3: Vulnerability
- Surrounds the enemy in a warp field.
- Enemy takes +50% damage and force from all sources.
- Warp field duration: 4 seconds.

Rank 4: Choose evolution:
a. Explosive Warp:
- +50% combo damage
- +50% combo force
- +50% combo radius
b. Heavy Warp:
- +100% damage
c. Area Warp
- 3m radius
- -50% damage
- -50% combo damage
- -50% combo force
- -50% Vulnerability duration
d. Damaging Warp
- Deals 25 damage/s during Vulnerability duration
- Enemy now take 100% damage and force from all sources

Singularity:
Rank 1: Singularity
- Base Duration: 6 seconds
- Base Cooldown: 6 seconds
- Base Radius: 2 meters
- Cast type: Instant
- Damage to protections: 25 damage/second
- Multipliers: Shields 300%, Barriers 300%, Armor 0%
- Will disapate if detonated by Warp

Rank 2: Recharge Speed
- Recharge speed -25%

Rank 3: Duration
- +25% duration

Rank 4: Choose evolution:
a. Wide Singularity
- +150% radius
b. Heavy Singularity
- +100% damage
- +50% duration
- -50% radius
c. Explosive Singularity
- Singularity explodes after its duration ends for 250 damage, 500 force in a 3m radius
- Explosion can detonate enemies affected by other biotics
d. Damaging Singularity
- Singularity now damages health
- +50% damage
- +50% combo damage
- +50% combo force

Pull:
Rank 1: Pull
- Base duration: 4 seconds
- Base cooldown: 4 seconds
- Base Force: 500N
- Cast type: Homing Projectile
- Can only pull unprotected enemies. Will stagger protected enemies.
- Multipliers: Shields 300%, Barriers 300%, Armor 0%

Rank 2: Recharge Speed
- Recharge speed -25%

Rank 3: Force
- +100% force

Rank 4: Choose evolution:
a. Area Pull
- 3 meter radius
- -50% force
- -50% duration
b. Heavy Pull
- Can now pull protected enemies, but at -50% force, -75% duration
c. Expose Pull
- Enemies take +50% damage and force from all sources
d. Damaging Pull
- Enemies take 100 damage/second

Throw:
Rank 1: Throw
- Base cooldown: 4 seconds
- Base Force: 500N
- +100% force on lifted or frozen targets
- Cast type: Homing Projectile
- Multipliers: Shields 300%, Barriers 300%, Armor 100%

Rank 2: Recharge Speed
- Recharge speed -25%

Rank 3: Damage and Force
- 100 damage on impact
- +100% force

Rank 4: Choose evolution
a. Heavy Throw
- +50% damage
- +100% force
b. Area Throw
- 3 meter radius
- -50% damage
- -50% force
- -50% combo force
c. Detonation Throw
- Can detonate enemies affected by Warp for a Warp explosion
- Can detonate lifted enemies with a force explosion. Radius 3m, Force 1000N
d. Instant Throw
- Throw changes from a projectile to an instant-cast power
- -50% damage
- -50% force

Stasis:
Rank 1: Stasis
- Base cooldown: 8 seconds
- Base Duration: 6 seconds
- Cast type: Instant
- Leaves a lasting biotic effect on an enemy that prevents catching the enemy in Stasis again
- Cannot damage an enemy that is in Stasis

Rank 2: Recharge Speed
- Recharge speed -25%

Rank 3: Vulnerability
- Enemy takes +25% more damage and force from all sources after Stasis ends

Rank 4: Choose evolution:
a. Improved Stasis
- +100% duration
b. Damaging Stasis:
- Stasis deals 25 damage/second to health
c. Enhanced Stasis:
- Can cast Stasis a second time on an enemy
- Enemy no longer takes extra damage after Stasis wears off
d. Vulnerability Stasis
- Can now damage an enemy in Stasis, but at -50% damage
- Can detonate Stasis, but at -50% combo damage and force
- Enemy now takes -50% damage after Stasis wears off

Biotic Mastery:
Rank 1: Power Recharge Speed
- Recharge speed -25% for all powers

Rank 2: Power Duration
- +25% duration for all powers

Rank 3: Weight Capacity
- undefined weapon carrying capacity increase here

Rank 4: Choose evolution:
a. Nemesis
- Unlocks the Nemesis passive tree. Nemesis provides bonuses to powers.
b. Bastion
- Unlocks the Bastion passive tree. Bastion provides bonuses to health and shields

Nemesis:
Rank 1: Power Damage
- +25% power damage to all powers

Rank 2: Power Duration
- +25% duration to all powers

Rank 3: Power Force
- +50% Force to all powers

Rank 4: Choose evolution:
a. Power Nemesis
- +50% Power Damage
- +50% Force
b. Combo Nemesis
- +50% Combo Damage
- +50% Combo Force

Bastion:
Rank 1: Extra Health
- +25% health

Rank 2: Extra Shields
- +25% shields

Rank 3: Shield Recharge
- +25% shield recharge rate

Rank 4: Choose evolution:
a. Shielded Nemesis
- Shields take -25% less damage
b. Medical Nemesis
- +100% medigel capacity
- Unity now restores shields to 100% when used.



NOTE: I may try again, but next time with Soja57's concept.

Throw was probably the hardest, followed by Pull. I tried really hard to make the radius evolutions less attractive, but still make them useful. Radius bonuses are really hard to balance against other evolutions, particularly on Pull.

Modifié par RedCaesar97, 29 janvier 2014 - 02:50 .

[Soja57]

Here is my critique of taking a general view of your Adept. I will try to go in-depth later on with what little free time that I have.

General Overview
From seeing both yours and Abraham_uk's Adept, I think choosing from 4 evos at a certain rank is proving to be difficult. I personally don't like the idea of choose between 4 evos, because it means the player misses on too much power evos at one choice, which limits the customization ability compared to what players have with ME3's system.

Also, all 4 of the evolutions have to be unique from each other, and can easily have redundancy or balance issues. Whereas with ME3's system, it is easier to create unique and balanced evolutions at a given rank. Also, rather than a sudden "choose only one out of the four" evolutions, ME3 gives each evolution a more fair chance.

Well, this applies to my evolution system at least, don't know if ME3 actually gives each evo a fair chance. Anyway, I also feel that with this system, you gave some unnecessary and somewhat heavy penalties to certain evos to balance the evolutions, which I find is somewhat of a poor way to balance Rank 4 choices.

Protection modifiersWhat does this exactly affect? For Warp, it affects combo effectiveness, but you never explicitly stated what each multiplier means for Throw, Pull, and Singularity.

Branching off from this question is why does Shields and Barriers have a 300% bonus, but Armor either 100% or 0%? Especially having a high shield modifier, I would think that the Engineer should be the anti-shield class.

Warp
How does Area Warp stack with combo detonation?

Pull
What exactly is Base Force? The "kick" that enemies receive to be pulled in one direction like Lift Force? I also think that the lack of duration evolutions somewhat limits the utility of Pull in terms of CC and combo setups.

With Heavy Pull, that is a heavy penalty to duration, reducing it to 1 second without any other duration bonuses. It almost trivializes the point of using Pull against protected targets. Though I guess this is more of a squad evo, where biotic squadmates can take advantage of lifted protected target for a detonation.

One other thing, how useful is 3 m radius (don't compare to another evo, just explain its utility)? Just curious, I haven't done playthroughs in awhile, so I may have forgotten opportunities where radius is very awesome.

Throw
Again, what are the purpose of the protection multipliers? Unsure if Instant Throw evo is worth the point cost, since instant cast is harder to aim targets (limited to forward only due to unable to curve/arc projectile), along with its penalties.

Stasis
I'm not really a fan of Stasis, as it just seems like a shield-piercing version of Cryo Blast, and doesn't fit with the Adept's concentration on flaying enemies with their mind. Well, you never mentioned it could pierce shields, I'm assuming that it does?

Biotic Mastery + Specializations
Overall looks solid, though I think Bastion is somewhat weaker in comparison to Nemesis. I also think Bastion should have more emphasis on biotics, as it seems that it is a specialization that could be given to any class without any lore/gameplay issues (like Fitness passive).

- - - - - - - -  - - -  - -

Again this is just a rough, at a glance critique. I've got a lot of stuff going on, but hopefully I can dive deeper into you Adept class and provide more meaningful and helpful critique.

Modifié par Soja57, 29 janvier 2014 - 04:58 .

[Abraham_uk]

Red Ceasar


You are probably not going to like this review.
You were expecting a barrage of criticism.
Instead I have a barrage of praise. I love it!



I love the fact you can choose between 4 final evolutions!


______________________________________________________________________________


Throw: 

Ranks 1-3 are standard fare.

Rank 4: 4 amazing choices here.

You can go for a high flying thrust to send one foe into the skies, or knock back multiple enemies. Perhaps biotic detonations are your thing. Maybe you loathe those projectile based powers (that most enemies dodge most of the time ugh!) that is what instant cast is for.

I love the choices available. If someone is feeling nostalgic for ME 1, they'll grab instant cast. If they're more ME 2 inclined they'll go for heavy or areay throw. If they want to unleash their inner Michael Bay there is an explosive option. (I am not taking the mick, I really love Michael Bay's explosions:devil:!)


______________________________________________________________________________

Protections:

Your stats for different difficulties are a great addition.

I'm going to do some calculations at some point to try and guage how much damage your adept does versus these protections (at some point).

I'm glad you put these up. At least experienced number crunchers such as  can evaluate them.

______________________________________________________________________________


Pull

You have 4 great evolution choices here.

There is a nice area of effect evolution. I'd either pick singularity for the area of effect rag dolling or pick pull with this evolution.

If I am going to have pull and singularity in my arsenal, then the other 3 evolutions are really going to help.

A counter protection pull. Now I can be a ME 1 style adept.


Expose and damage are great for the supportive adept. The kind that makes enemies easier to kill through damage over time or vulnerability type effects. With a soldier to mow those foes down, pull is a great addition.



______________________________________________________________________________


Warp


Warp is that power that turns telekinetic specialist into a damage dealing specialist. No bullets fired and biotic projectiles for everyone.


Once again ranks 1-3 are standard fare. The stats are balanced in ranks 1-3 so it's all good stuff.

Rank 4 is where the excitement begins.

You have an instant damage warp for adepts who want to ditch guns and warp spam their way to victory.
You have a damage over time warp for a more support style adept who likes to combine powers and gunplay.
You have an area of effect warp for support adepts who want to take out multiple targets.
Then there is the explosive warp for people like me who want the adept to obliterate all enemies.

Your evolutions here take into account multiple approaches to the adept.

If I was to compare my version of Warp  (1a, 1b, 2a, 2b, 3a, 3b, 4a, 4b) to yours, I'd say that all of my evolutions for warp have a lot of overlap. Each of your evolutions for warp are very distinct with little to no overlap making different choices more meaningful.

You've managed to some how make a regular feature of the adept exciting again (a challenging feat indeed).


______________________________________________________________________________


Singularity

If my adept doesn't have singularity then I just don't care.

Sentinels and Vanguards can use the adepts other powers. However singularity is unique to the adept and is the most visually stunning power. A blue version of a black hole (the most horrorfying object in space).

So for this power I'm expecting spectacular evolutions to match the ferocity of the singularity.


Explosive singularity. Well you've won me over already. Now onto the other evolutions


The wide singularity is another awesome evolution. I have a hard time choosing between a large singularity or explosive singularity.

Damaging singularity and heavy singularity are great options for dps adepts who don't want to detonnate their way through the campaign.

Great power. Great choices. I love it!<3


______________________________________________________________________________


Stasis:


This is a power I'm reserving for my sentinel concept. The reason why is because it's a great defensive power.


Your concept for stasis works well though. There is no reason why an adept shouldn't be defensive. If you fancy yourself a "Bastion" of the battlefield, then hold those enemies in place so that your squad are less overwhelmed.


You can pick a ME 3 style stasis with vulnerability. Hit those foes when they can't hit you. Should be illegal, but I love it!

Enhanced stasis provides two stasis fields for the price of one! Makes the battlefield a lot easier to dominate when you have 2 less foes to worry about.

You have a damage over time stasis field to ensure when the foe comes out, they have less hit points. Another great evolution.

Then there is the duration stasis field which is great for that one foe who insists on carrying a sword to a gun fight only to take you down in one hit. Phantoms can now be held in place till I'm ready to deal with them.

I love this power. Great addition to the adept.


______________________________________________________________________________


Biotic Mastery:

Taking a leaf out of Soja 57's epic Adept concept you've crafted an exciting passive concept.


The Bastion is all about surviving the battle with extra health and extra medigel. My only issue (which is my only issue with your concept) is why are there two Bastion evolutions called "Shielded Nemesis" and "Medical Nemesis" Shouldn't they be called "Shielded Bastion" and "Medical Bastion".


Then there is the Nemesis. This is for the adept who wants to destroy everything in site, and then follow up with more mass destruction to ensure all foes have been decimated.  You can go for straight up combos or you can go for straight up damage.


Whilst I am normally the combo killing machine basking in those goregeous blue explosions:devil:, I am also the type of commando who keeps dying:crying:. So I'd be torn between your bastion who can have more shields/barriers or more and better medigel or the damage dealing Nemesis.


______________________________________________________________________________

Summary:

The challenge here is not only coming up with loads of possible builds, but also making all of them viable and making sure that there isn't much overlap between different playstyles. 


There are 4 main distinct playstyles here.



The defensive bastion who weakens enemies so that squadmates can kill foes quickly.
The gun tooting adept who weakens foes with biotics to finish them of by themself.
The damage over time nemesis who plagues multiple targets with illness before finishing foes off with (melee, guns or warp).
Then the explosive adept who just wants to destroy everything in sight.


I haven't even listed every type of playstyle for this adept.


The great thing about your concepts (if you follow through) is that if someone only wants to play soldier (for example) they will have at least 4 types of soldier and gain 4 playthroughs.

I may be the kind of guy who plays 6 playthroughs (one for each class), but I might just reserve 2 playthroughs for the adept. One for a bastion and one for a nemesis (because I have difficulty choosing between explosions and support).

Good work!



______________________________________________________________________________

Post Summary (if there is such a thing):


Soja 57 doesn't seem all that keen on 4 final evolutions.

I can kind of see where he's coming from.

A choice between 4 evolutions is a much harder choice to make.
A guy like me will gravitate towards big explosions (surprise, surprise) and may not give the other evolutions much of a chance.


Personally I love the 4 evolutions at rank 4 idea because of the reasons I listed in my summary. It's a great way of making different versions of the same power distinct.


When I did the 4 evolutions concept I had difficulty creating 4 meaningful choices. A lot of that was down to this setup

R1
R2
R3

R4a
R4b

R5a
R5b

R6a
R6b
R6c
R6d

I had a lot of gimicks. By the time I reached rank 6 most of my interesting evolutions were in ranks 4 & 5.

When you did the 4 final evolutions, you didn't seem to suffer from this issue since ranks 1-3 were linear and you had a lot more room for creativity when it came to the final 4.

This is going to be a contensus issue, so I'll leave it to you.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 29 janvier 2014 - 07:40 .

[Abraham_uk]

I've edited my Engineer
I've also edited my Adept

Coming soon... My Sentinel!

[RedCaesar97]

@Soja57:

Thank you for the feedback. I want to respond to some of your statements and questions.

Soja57 wrote...

Here is my critique of taking a general view of your Adept. I will try to go in-depth later on with what little free time that I have.
...

I think choosing from 4 evos at a certain rank is proving to be difficult.
...
all 4 of the evolutions have to be unique from each other, and can easily have redundancy or balance issues.
...
I also feel that with this system, you gave some unnecessary and somewhat heavy penalties to certain evos to balance the evolutions, which I find is somewhat of a poor way to balance Rank 4 choices.

Trying to come up with four distinct evolutions is hard, at least for some powers. Some powers are easier than others. For example, I think coming up with 4 evolutions for Adrenaline Rush or Overload is much easier than Pull.

As for heavy penalties with some evolutions, I was trying to balance what I think would be an obvious evolution choice otherwise. Take Pull for example. With my system, the Adept can have Pull on a 2-second cooldown and a 4-second duration before any duration bonuses are added (which could get it to 6s duration). So how do you balance this evolution against the other choices? I think this is a problem with most radius evolutions.

Now with your system, putting the radius evo opposite another evo would be good if you provide a good opposite evo. But you also have to weigh both choices against the other choice to see if you have actually made it possible to have 2-4 solid builds for that power alone. Very difficult as we have both seen. I don't think either of us has quite got it, although I think you may have come closer.

Protection modifiersWhat does this exactly affect? For Warp, it affects combo effectiveness, but you never explicitly stated what each multiplier means for Throw, Pull, and Singularity.

Branching off from this question is why does Shields and Barriers have a 300% bonus, but Armor either 100% or 0%? Especially having a high shield modifier, I would think that the Engineer should be the anti-shield class.

Protections modiers affects damage to protections. Damage can be from power damage or power force. I'm thinking it should be like ME3 where I believe 10% of force is converted to damage.

As for Warp affecting Shields... This was a common complaint in ME2, where some players (let's call them morons) complained that Warp did not get a damage multiplier against shields, but did against armor and barriers. Some said they thought Warp should deal extra damage to shields and armor but not barriers. I just turned that around and made it so it damaged shields and barriers, but not armor.

Engineer has Overload and Incinerate for shields and armor.

Warp
How does Area Warp stack with combo detonation?

I am thinking it is additive. So -50% + 50% = net 0 reduction/gain. Of course, -50% from Area Pull and -50% from Area Warp = -100%, or no explosion damage+force. May just need numbers tweaks, such as 45% instead of 50%. But that is mostly to discourage lifting three enemies with Pull then detonating all three enemies with Warp and killing all three.

Pull
What exactly is Base Force? The "kick" that enemies receive to be pulled in one direction like Lift Force? I also think that the lack of duration evolutions somewhat limits the utility of Pull in terms of CC and combo setups.

With Heavy Pull, that is a heavy penalty to duration, reducing it to 1 second without any other duration bonuses. It almost trivializes the point of using Pull against protected targets. Though I guess this is more of a squad evo, where biotic squadmates can take advantage of lifted protected target for a detonation.

One other thing, how useful is 3 m radius (don't compare to another evo, just explain its utility)? Just curious, I haven't done playthroughs in awhile, so I may have forgotten opportunities where radius is very awesome.

Base force: basically for a minimum damage to protections, and also the force that enemies are pulled or how fast they are pulled away or into the air.

For Heavy Pull, the max cooldown is 2s, and you get +25% from Biotic Master (+1s) and you can get another +25% from Nemesis (another +1s). So even with the -75%, you can still have a 3s duration on the enemy with a 2s cooldown. Note that the penalty is only for protected enemies, and enemies on health get full duration. Maybe I did not make that clear.

Throw
Again, what are the purpose of the protection multipliers? Unsure if Instant Throw evo is worth the point cost, since instant cast is harder to aim targets (limited to forward only due to unable to curve/arc projectile), along with its penalties.

Just for the initial damage to protections.
As for instant throw, I was running out of good evolution ideas that seemed balanced. And some players may want a return to the ME1-style throw that I still think sucks ass even though some ME1 fans liked it.

Stasis
I'm not really a fan of Stasis, as it just seems like a shield-piercing version of Cryo Blast, and doesn't fit with the Adept's concentration on flaying enemies with their mind. Well, you never mentioned it could pierce shields, I'm assuming that it does?

I wanted a return of ME2 Stasis. Basically a CC power to remove a particularly tough enemy from the battlefield regardless of protections. I tried to balance it by making it single-use. And like in ME2 and ME1 (non-Bastion) you cannot damage enemies in Stasis.

Biotic Mastery + Specializations
Overall looks solid, though I think Bastion is somewhat weaker in comparison to Nemesis. I also think Bastion should have more emphasis on biotics, as it seems that it is a specialization that could be given to any class without any lore/gameplay issues (like Fitness passive).

With your Adept that has two damage-focused powers (Warp and Impulse) and two duration powers (Pull and Singularity) you could focus damage on one branch and duration on the other. With my adept, it is mostly duration, so I decided to focus on survivability on branch 2. This way could take Barrier or some other shield power for an Adept that likes to survive a bit longer while casting powers.

I thought about adding Barrier as a power instead of Stasis originally.


I want to thank you again for the feedback. I think this really shows us and whoever reads this that designing a game is harder than you think. And we are not really designing a game so much from scratch as we are taking established ideas and tinkering with them.

I think this is a great excercise. 

Modifié par RedCaesar97, 30 janvier 2014 - 01:28 .

[Soja57]

 @RedCaesar97
For 4 evolutions at rank 4, it is very difficult to weigh 4 evolutions against each other in comparison to my system with only 2 evolutions for higher ranks. It makes it easier for both the developer and the player; the developer would have an easier time creating balanced evolutions while the player is given more equal chances to pick each evolution.

I also think that with your system, the build possibilities are more restricted. Sure, it provides the same amount of ways to build a power as my system (4 ways), but it all relies on a single variable, in this case, a single rank. But with my system, even though it has the same amount of ways to build a power, the builds are both simple and complex at the same time.

Simple in the way that you simply switch out one evolution for the other at rank 4 or 5 to create a new build, but complex in mix-and-matching evolution combinations of both ranks in order to fit your playstyle. I think that is what RPG gamers like; comparing combinations of certain things to create the ideal combination for their character/power.

Well, at least with your classic evolutions, you are reaching out to more audiences than I have. But yeah, I can see that creating 4 evolutions balanced towards each other is very difficult.

- - - - - - - - -  - - - 

I guess I can understand the Adepts who complained about the classes inept ability against shields. Now in ME3, biotics dominate against everything. With my revamped combo/detonation system and piercing evolutions, I tried to consider both of these issues into consideration while still making the class fun yet powerful.

- - - - - - - -  - - - 

For Heavy Pull, I misread the way the the penalties work. Personally, I don't like how current ME3 handles certain reduction/penalty evolutions such as Nova Half Blast or Efficient Phase Disruptor. I think these penalties should be multipliers to reduce confusion.

The reason I thought that your penalty was too harsh was because I thought the 75% reduction in duration was a multiplier. So even with passives, Pull would still have 1.5 seconds until I rechecked the evolution of being a subtractive bonus. I guess it is balanced, though somewhat confusing, for me at least.

- - - - - - - - -

Again, I can't comment much on Stasis since I'm not a big fan of the power (though ME2 it was a pretty decent, and somewhat overpowered, power). I just think it fits more as a bonus power or squadmate power. This also goes back to my Sentinel; still unsure what to do about that class.

- - - - - - - - - - 

Regarding feedback, I think this thread has taught everyone here a lot of things about the development behind games, such as balancing issues and the difficulty in formulating ideas for certain things.

Well, I'll be back with either some more analysis or perhaps finally my Engineer class or even my Adept showcase video. Working hard on those, and almost done with the former. Can't wait for some heavy criticism.

Modifié par Soja57, 30 janvier 2014 - 03:50 .

[Abraham_uk]

Today or tomorrow I shall be posting the Sentinel.
The concept is a bit controversial to say the least...

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 30 janvier 2014 - 08:40 .

[Soja57]

@Abraham_uk, I've seen your newly designed Engineer, and here are my thoughts. Prepare for a length post.

I will be using your Overload's base stats as the primary basis for reviewing your other powers and combos, as I feel your Overload at base is simple but balanced.

- - - - - - - - - - -

Combos
While your tech combo system does give the Engineer an incentive to create power combos, the combos aren't very unique, in that they are all just pure damage without much crowd control. The combos feel almost like clones of each other, with the exception of Dispersion combos.

I personally don't like tech combos, but nevertheless, I may have an idea on how to make each combo awesome and unique.

Electric Fire
What exactly is an electric fire? Seems kind of like a weird combination of elements. With that said, Electric Fire is the most balanced combo, but I would change a few things to make it more unique than a pure damage combo.

The damage is pretty balanced, but I'd say give it a 1.5x multiplier vs all protections, since it incorporates both fire and electric elements. Also, it should stun any unprotected enemy (fire vs organic, electric vs synthetic) for half of its duration. This makes Electric Fire the most versatile combo, but not necessarily the best.

For example, you can use Electric Fire to strip any defense with massive damage (due to 1.5x vs protections), or stun unprotected targets.

Tech Burst
In comparison to other tech combos and powers, Tech Burst deals too much damage. I'd say bring it down to 200 damage (400 vs shields and barriers), and allow it to stun unprotected synthetics for 5 seconds. The reason for the slight damage nerf is because it deals instantaneous damage in comparison to other tech combos.

So Tech Burst would be the best anti-shield and anti-synthetic combo.

Steam Combo
Way too weak of a combo in comparison to others, even when taking its radius and damage multiplier into account. Only 75 damage, 150 vs armor and health? I'd say bump up its damage to 40 damage per second, allowing it to deal 200 total damage (400 vs health and armor). Also allow it to stun organic enemies for 5 seconds.

This makes Steam Combo the best anti-armor/anti-organic combo.

- - - - - -

These changes would make the combos more unique in comparison to each other. Otherwise, people would probably just stick to Tech Burst since it is the most powerful combo. I think you should throw in radius for Tech Bursts and Electric Fire, to make combos more rewarding, though with these changes, it may be unnecessary. Just another thing to take into account.

-------------------------------------------

Well, onto the powers now.

Combat Drone

While Combat Drone is meant for crowd control more than anything else, its damage is very weak. It's total damage per second is only 2.5 or 4 (5 or 8 DPS against shields and barriers), and makes Rank 2a Close Quarters Drone a weak evolution. You could probably triple or even quadruple its damage and it would still be balanced.

I'm not trying to make the Combat Drone a primary damage power, but at least with increased damage, Rank 2a should make the Combat Drone deal moderate damage.

Also, Rank1b Defense Drone has both Recharge Speed and Cooldown? Which one is which?

Rocket Drone has a seriously long cooldown, the Drone would probably be only to fire one rocket on higher difficulties before dying. I don't know if reducing the cooldown would be a good idea though, because that may conflict with the Drone's traditional zapping attack.

How long does the Flamethrower last? Depending on its duration, its damage may be too weak. And only 1 meter range? The drone might as well be kissing the enemy to death.

Rank 4 evolutions seem pretty good. Again, the cooldown for shield restore may be a bit long.

Overload

How long does Overload stun enemies?

Rank 2a Neural Shock is kind of an odd evolution. What is the difference between incapacitate unprotected organic targets for 3 seconds, stun unprotected targets for 2 seconds?

Otherwise, Overload seems like one of your best designed powers.

Incinerate
You may want to fix Incinerate, as you state many things that contradict each other. For example, you say Incinerate does not deal instant damage, but then you list Instant Damage and Damage Per Second. You also have the damage values from before you edited your Engineer?

The Duration values are also ridiculously long. 15 second for Heavy Incinerate, and 10 for Carnage? Sure, fires can burn for a long time, but having long durations somewhat trivializes the purpose of speccing into duration bonuses, and many enemies would die faster than the duration of this power.

This also makes performing combos such as electric fire or steam combo too easy. Combos should be difficult but rewarding to perform; players should strategize squadmates and manage cooldowns to effectively perform them (ME3 was way too easy to perform combos, which I hated).

Otherwise, most of the evolutions look great.

Cryo Blast
10 second duration? Again, the duration is a little too long, since it can freeze and effectively shut down enemies easily.

Unsure about the utility of certain evolutions, such as Snowblind, Disruption, and Damping. This is because we aren't familiar with the context we are working, i.e. the enemies. Perhaps I will provide a general guide to enemies later on. Overall, the other evolutions make Cryo Blast a great debuff power.

Sabotage
Seems like a ridiculously long duration that can completely own enemies. Rank 1a Focused Sabotage's 20 second Hack duration makes Rank 3b Durable AI somewhat useless, since its duration is already pretty long. Unsure about the utility of Radius Sabotage, but its duration is balanced.

Some of your evolutions treat Sabotage's duration as if it were only 10 seconds. For example, with Rank 1a Focused Sabotage and and Rank 2b Improved Hacking, isn't that a reduction in Duration (from 20 to 15 seconds)? Be careful of how you treat your duration bonuses.

Tech Mastery
Power Cooldown feels superior to Power Damage, since Cooldown has a bigger bonus and is more rare to obtain.

Master Saboteur treats Sabotage strangely, in that it only affects Sabotage's disfunction duration but not hacked duration.

You say rank 4a Puppet Master increases Drone's duration, but your Drone doesn't have a duration?

- - - - - - - - - - -

Overall, a big improvement to your previous Engineer class, but there are fragments, both of your previous Engineer and some typos/errors, that may need some cleaning up.

Also, you add in some evolutions that affect things that we don't have much knowledge of such as enemy cooldowns, or accuracy. Not saying that the evolutions are bad, but it is difficult for me to judge the utility of the power because of this.

One last thing, be careful about the sense of time, such as cooldowns or duration. Too long of a duration can shut down enemies with ease and easily set up combos. Combat Drone and Sabotage have really long cooldowns in comparison to the other powers, which may turn players off from using those powers.

[Soja57]

Also, I have a few questions before I can start posting more content.

I'm planning on posting a sample enemy faction, and will need both of your collaboration to create enemies that we can all agree upon. This would give us a general idea of enemy health values, weapons, and powers, thus allow us to compare our classes relative to enemies. I personally think that since the Geth have been in all 3 games, they would be the best to work with. Right now, I'm currently creating Geth units with their unique powers.

Second, we need to know the difficulty modes in order to design enemies correctly. I'm thinking that the current amount of difficulty modes is too much. RedCaesar97's post on enemy health values is a good start, with only 3 difficulties.

Third, while it may seem that we are almost redesigning the game from ground up, we need to establish a foundation in order to design our classes effectively. There are still so many other factors that we haven't taken into consideration, such as weapons, armor, squadmates (though I touched a bit on this) that may throw our classes off balance. Character levels and talent points are also another consideration.

Modifié par Soja57, 31 janvier 2014 - 07:05 .

[Abraham_uk]

Soja57 wrote...

Also, I have a few questions before I can start posting more content.

I'm planning on posting a sample enemy faction, and will need both of your collaboration to create enemies that we can all agree upon. This would give us a general idea of enemy health values, weapons, and powers, thus allow us to compare our classes relative to enemies. I personally think that since the Geth have been in all 3 games, they would be the best to work with. Right now, I'm currently creating Geth units with their unique powers.

Second, we need to know the difficulty modes in order to design enemies correctly. I'm thinking that the current amount of difficulty modes is too much. RedCaesar97's post on enemy health values is a good start, with only 3 difficulties.

Third, while it may seem that we are almost redesigning the game from ground up, we need to establish a foundation in order to design our classes effectively. There are still so many other factors that we haven't taken into consideration, such as weapons, armor, squadmates (though I touched a bit on this) that may throw our classes off balance. Character levels and talent points are also another consideration.

I'd love to take part.

You know what this thread is?
Applied Maths.
A very complex balancing act that involves taking into account a lot of variables.
I am beginning to really appreciate the combat designers of Mass Effect.

They have done a fantastic job of making the 6 classes interesting across the trilogy. Ironic conclusion given that this thread was born out of the premise of "can we do better?"

It's actually hard work. But it's the fun kind of hard work.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 01 février 2014 - 04:56 .

[Soja57]

Well, this thread isn't necessarily "can we do better", but more of "can we shape the classes to meet our vision?" Whether or not these classes are better than Bioware's default classes is subjective; everyone has their own vision of what would make great classes (as most evident in this thread).

Let's first hammer down the difficulties:

-Casual = Recommended for players new to shooters and RPGs.

-Normal = Recommended for players familiar with shooters or RPGs.

-Hardcore = Recommended for players looking for a challenge. Comparable to current ME3 Insanity (which seems somewhat easier than ME2 Insanity).

-Insanity? = Unlocked only by beating the game. Recommended only for those seeking the ultimate challenge. Comparable to MP Gold/Platinum difficulty?

I've always liked the idea of unlocking a difficulty mode after beating the game. Its kind of like the first playthrough is a tutorial for Insanity mode. This emphasizes that the player must master nearly every aspect of the game in order to prepare for the ultimate challenge. In a way, this goes back to ME1, where Hardcore and Insanity were only unlocked by completing the previous difficulty mode.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

One power I feel that is best to balance our powers around is Overload, since it is a direct damage (no damage per second to take into account), and has simple protection modifiers. Here is a sneak peak of my Engineer. Do note that because we still need more information on enemies, damage is still a work in progress.

Overload

Shock enemies with this power surge, stunning unprotected synthetic enemies and dealing bonus damage vs shields. Does not stun hacked synthetic targets. Staggers unprotected organics.

Damage = 240 damage (2x vs Shields, 1.5x vs Barriers)
Stun Duration = 3 seconds
Cooldown = 6 seconds

Evolutions

Rank 2: Cooldown +20%

Rank 3: Damage +20%

Rank 4a: Damage +30%, Duration +50%

Rank 4b: Shield Stun
Overload can stun any shielded target. 50% stun effectiveness vs shielded targets that have armor under their shields.

Rank 5a: Synthetic Overload
Deals 1.5x damage vs synthetics, regardless of protections (stacks with base shield multiplier for 3x shield damage vs synthetics). Synthetics killed by this power explode to damage nearby enemies (Can stack with Sabotage Overclock evo).
-Explosion Damage = 240 damage
-Explosion Radius = 4 meters

Rank 5b: Chain Overload
Overload can jump to 2 additional targets within 8 meters, but dealing 0.5x damage per jump.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

The reason for having a 2x vs shields is so that Overload is still a viable option against health. 1.5x barriers is so that the Engineer would be comparable to the Adept in terms of stripping Barriers, making biotic squadmates who can strip barriers more rewarding.

For a basic Geth Trooper, on Hardcore mode, they would have 600 health/600 shields. But I'm also thinking that Geth should have the highest shields in comparison to other enemy factions. For example, perhaps a basic Cerberus Assault Trooper would have the same amount of hit points, but lower shields and higher health.

Ex: 750 health, 450 shields. This way, Overload can strip the shields off of Cerbereus Assault Troopers with ease, but a bit of power damage would help Overload fully strip Geth Trooper shields.

Modifié par Soja57, 01 février 2014 - 05:55 .

[RedCaesar97]

Soja57 wrote...

Also, I have a few questions before I can start posting more content.

1) I'm planning on posting a sample enemy faction, and will need both of your collaboration to create enemies that we can all agree upon. This would give us a general idea of enemy health values, weapons, and powers, thus allow us to compare our classes relative to enemies. I personally think that since the Geth have been in all 3 games, they would be the best to work with. Right now, I'm currently creating Geth units with their unique powers.

2) We need to know the difficulty modes in order to design enemies correctly. I'm thinking that the current amount of difficulty modes is too much. RedCaesar97's post on enemy health values is a good start, with only 3 difficulties.

3) while it may seem that we are almost redesigning the game from ground up, we need to establish a foundation in order to design our classes effectively. There are still so many other factors that we haven't taken into consideration, such as weapons, armor, squadmates (though I touched a bit on this) that may throw our classes off balance. Character levels and talent points are also another consideration.

1) I will get back  to you on that.

2) I am thinking just three modes:
Easy. Enemies have the lowest amount of health and damage. Only elite and greater enemies have protections. Think ME2 Normal/Veteran difficulty.

Normal. All enemies have some form of protection (shields, armor, or barriers). Enemies have moderate amounts of health and protecion and deal moderate amounts of damage. Think ME2 Hardcore difficulty.

Hard. Enemies deal their most damage. All enemies have protections and health and protections are at their strongest. Think ME2 Insanity.

You could even make Easy+Normal enemy health/protections the same values, just that basic enemies have no protections. That could make it easier to try and balance powers across difficulties.

3) I have some similar thoughts and questions. I will try to post these across a few days.


As for character levels/talent points, you have wrote in the past that you like the ME2 system of powers/points and I liked it as well. Just enough points to shape a character/playstyle with enough room for different builds and playstyles.

So if we take ME2 as a basis:
 a. Each class in ME2 had 5 powers, one passive and one bonus power. Each talent tree cost 10 points.
 b. With a bonus power, each class had 51 points, enough to max 5 trees with 1 point left over for one other power. 

So with Soja57's class build ideas and my class build ideas (I haven't read your latest edits Abraham_uk), we have 5 powers, 1 passive, and 1 unlockable passive (of 2). So if you take the ME2 approach, you want enough points to allow the player to max 6 trees: typically 4 powers and the 2 passives (and 1 point left over?).

That being said, maybe 4 powers is too much? In which case, 3 powers and 2 passives (with 1 point left over?). As a console player, I can only play with 3 powers anyway if I want to play without pausing.

Once you figure out how many maxed-out talent trees you want to allow, the ttotal amount of talent points needed is easy to figure out. With Soja57's idea of 5 ranks with a 1-2-3-4-5 point system (15 points per power), then:
 - 4 powers + 2 passives + 1 bonus point = 91 points
 - 3 powers + 2 passives + 1 bonus point = 76 points

You can always figure out how you want to dole out points later (XP from objectives and/or missions completed, and so on).

[Abraham_uk]

Enemy types

Following traditional RPG rules, enemies can be classed in 3 classic RPG archetypes.
These three types work together to obliterate you and your squad. However there are in fact many types of melee, commandos and casters on the battlefield. Each with their own unique abilities, strengths and weaknesses.

Melee (Warrior/Assassin)
Commando (Ranger)
Caster (Wizard)


Below is just a generalised list of enemy types you might face in the main game. This is not meant to be an exclusive list.


Please note that these are common enemy types. They do not include boss enemy types.

_______________________________________________________________________


Commando Types:

These have ONE primary weapon: Heavy Weapon or Assault Rifle or Sniper Rifle or Shotgun
ONE  backup weapon: Pistol or SMG
and ONE enhancement power: e.g. Adrenaline Rush, Tactical Cloak etc.

On insanity commando types also use grenades.

Average accuracy: 80% (depends on specific enemy and difficulty)
Average health/armour: 500 (depends on specific enemy and difficulty)
Average shields/barriers: 500 (depends on specific enemy and difficulty)

Average power duration: 12 seconds
Average power cooldowns: 10 seconds


There are 4 main commando types:
Soldiers: Assault Rifles (these are the most common infantry types. They make up 40% of all infantry in the game.)
Snipers: Sniper Rifles
Shocktroopers: Shotguns
Specialist: Heavy Weapons (there is a specialist for every type of heavy wepaon, form flame throwers, to missile launcher types, to black star types, to chaingun types, to grenade launcher types etc).


_______________________________________________________________________


Caster Types: 

These have one weapon: usually either a Pistol, SMG or Assault Rifle. (Only elite casters use Assault Rifles)
They have 2 active powers which they use in battle (3 active powers on insanity).

Average weapon accuracy: 70% (depends on specific enemy and difficulty)
Average power accuracy:  (depends on specific enemy and difficulty) Please note that projectile powers can be evaded by dodging 1 second before the projectile is within 1 metre of you. So timing is everything.
Average health/armour: 500 (depends on specific enemy and difficulty)
Average shields/barriers: 500 (depends on specific enemy and difficulty)

Average Cooldowns: 6 seconds (if you use cryo blast, you can increase enemy cooldowns)


Caster Types include:

Engineers: Incinerate,  Combat Drone and  Overload (only used on insanity),
These are ranged damage dealers. They distract you with their drones, then they overload your shields and finish you off by using incinerate. On insanity they can even exploit the same power combos available to you.


Saboteurs: Cryo Blast,  Smoke Screen and Sabotage (only used on insanity),
Their job is to weaken you and your squad. They slow down your movement speed and power cooldowns with cryo blast, they block your vision with smoke screen and can make your weapons inoperable for a while with sabotage.


Medics: Shield Boost,  Supply Pylon, Medigel, (used only on insanity)
Their job is to keep their allies alive. Their sypply pylon, supplies their squad with weapon ammo, whilst their medigel and shield boost keep their squad alive.


Mechanic:  Repair Synthetics, Hex Shield, Combat Turret, (used only on insanity)
The mechanic is to synthetics what the medic is to organics. They can repair synthetic allies. They also have a combat turret for distraction.  Being squishy, they use hex shield to form cover.


Modifier: Squad Incendiary Ammo, Squad Cryo Ammo, Squad Disruptor Ammo [Only appear on insanity]
Unique to insanity, the leader is the provider of ammo modification for an entire group of enemies. If you kill the Modifier first, you will greatly harm the dps of the entire enemy faction.

Adept:  Warp, Shockwave, Singularity, (used only on insanity)
A devastating enemy type that can stagger you and your squad with both shockwave and singularity. You can't be ragdolled by an adept's powers except on insanity and only when both your shields/barriers are down and you're health is less than 50%.


Vanguard: Warp Ammo, Charge, Smash [Exclusive to insanity]
Vanguards are powerful shotgun wielding combatants that love close ranged combat.
Their biotic charge deals no damage, but the biotic smash or shotgun blast that follows can be devastating.

Please note that the vanguard can only biotically charge at you if you stay still for 3 seconds. They have a targeting laser that is pointed at you. If you move, the laser loses track of you. So when you see a vanguard, don't go cover shooting. Just keep moving and shooting.

 
Berserker: Tech Armour, Draw Attention and Tech Armour Detonation (exclusive to insanity)
Berserkers are the annoying attention seeking combatants with the most hitpoints. They lack damage output, but are very good at staggering you and your squad.

In addition they have an ability called "draw attention". This will make all other enemies appear transparent (like glass). Your allies will automatically target the Berserker when the berserker using this ability. 


Concussive Trooper: Thanks to Frostbite 3 engine, all cover is destructible.
Concussive troopers only have one power. Concussive shot. The concussive shot will do next to little damage against you and your squadmates (will stagger you if your shields/barriers are down).

However, where this trooper excels is destroying cover. Concussive shot has been modified to obliterate any cover, from light cover to heavy cover. All walls, ceilings, crates, and even riot shields can be destroyed by concussive shot.  Please note that if you chose the soldier class you can have a go at destroying cover with concussive shot.


_______________________________________________________________________

Melee Types:

These are aggressive melee fighters. 

They come in 3 categories.


Beasts: They are fast beasts who can literally run much faster than you can. Averaging about 30 miles an hour. Their claws completely ignore your shields/barriers directly damaging your health.
However they have very little in the way of hit points even on insanity. 100 health. 200 shields.


Assassins: Known for their use of electrified samurai sword and palm disruptors these fighters are trained to attack you from behind. They don't appear on your raidar, so you must pay attention for a transparent glass figure moving though the battlefield. Unlike the phantoms from Mass Effect 3, they do not come out of tactical cloak even when attacking.

However, all of their attacks can be dodged. If you do find yourself in a 1 hit kills animation, don't worry. If you press the melee button at the right time you can kill them in one hit with your omniblade.


Juggernauts: Large enemy with lots of hitpoints and a 2 handed weapon. They are very slow but if they get close to you they can deal a lot of damage. A typical juggernaut type unit is the Krogan Warlord that can smash you with their warhammer.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 01 février 2014 - 06:25 .

[Soja57]

@RedCaesar97
I think 75 points is the best for my system. The player can max out 2 passives + 3 powers. Of course, bonus power would give a free point (76). For squadmates, it would be 45 points, allowing them to max out 3 out of the 4 talents. This could be either powers only and no passive, or 2 powers + Passive.

Also, I already have a chart created about how talen points would be dispersed for every level, up to Level 30. Feels like a very good system, better than ME3 and comparable to ME2.

@Abraham_uk

I personally think that, while it seems a lot of thought went into your enemy archetypes, they stray too close to traditional RPG games, particularly melee archetypes.

Mass Effect itself has a unique approach to enemies compared to traditonal RPG enemies. Thus, following RPG rules for enemies seems like regresssion; the key here is to create enemies that follow along the lines of Mass Effect gameplay.

Also, I think you are jumping too many hoops ahead. We are treading on very new territory here, so I'd say we should present small ideas and analyze them first, which will eventually evolve into bigger ideas.

Modifié par Soja57, 01 février 2014 - 06:47 .

[Soja57]

EDIT: This was originally stats about the Geth Trooper, but decided to do some more testing and research before posting stats of certain enemies.

Modifié par Soja57, 01 février 2014 - 09:58 .

[Soja57]

By PC modding, I've been able to heavily modify powers, weapons, and enemy health values. Lately I've been testing my Adept class in the Armax Arsenal Arena against Cerberus Centurions and Combat Engineers.

I had to establish a few things in order to create a controlled environment:

=====================================

Location: Armax Arsenal Arena

Probably the most important choice for controlled testing, the Armax Arsenal Arena allows for controlled testing via the choice of no squadmates, enemy type, and having great maps.

Armax Classic looks awesome while providing opportunities for both close and long range engagements, and has death pits for physics-based biotics.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Enemy: Cerberus Centurion & Combat Engineer

Health = 750
Shields = 450

When Super Elite Cerberus is chosen in the Armax Arena, the first wave consists of Cerberus Centurions, Combat Engineers, and Turrets.

The former two represent the basic enemy that would have shields (which we established earlier in this thread). One thing I had to change though was their health/shield ratio, as it gave enemies too little of health and somewhat trivialized biotic powers (of course, my version of biotics is more similar to ME2 than in ME3).

The Turret would represent the medium-tier enemy. I haven't set on what armor and shields values it would have, but I rolled with 1200 armor, 1200 shields (barring in mind that shield gate and armor reduction for weapons has been removed).

=====================================

Weapon: Avenger Assault Rifle



Mass Effect's gameplay revolves around combining both weapons and powers together in order to obliterate enemies effectively. Thus, I needed to establish a base weapon that other weapons would be based around. Combat classes also heavily rely on weapons in order to be balanced correctly.

The Avenger Assault Rifle is the most iconic weapon of the series, and is also very simple yet versatile to use, therefore it was the best choice for the base weapon. I simplified many of its stats and changed a few values for testing purposes.

Base Damage = 30 damage
Protection Multiplier = 1.25x vs Shields, Barriers, and Armor
Damage Per Second = 300 damage
Headshot Multiplier = 2x

Rounds Per Minute = 600 RPM (rate of fire)
Rounds Per Second = 10 RPS
Refire Time = 0.10 seconds (delay between each shot)

Clip Size = 30 shots
Spare Ammo = 240 shots/8 clips
Clip Depletion Time = 2.9 seconds (time to fire full clip)

Encumbrance Value = 50 encumbrance (disabled for testing purposes)

=====================================

Powers:
After a bit of testing, I have a few changes in mind for my Adept class.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Singularity

So far, the changes to Singularity are:
-Duration changed to Hold Duration (Singularity Duration would be 1.5x Hold Duration, so 7.5 seconds at base)

I never mentioned the difference between Singularity's Hold Duration and Singularity Duration in my Adept class. I just made the assumption that the Singularity would last as long as the Hold Duration, which is 5 seconds. I never found a purpose for a super long Singularity Duration like in ME3 (20 or so seconds).

But after testing it in game, I now realized the significance of an increased Singularity vs Hold Duration, considering how I faced all shielded targets. By increasing the Singularity Duration, the power gained more utility against protected targets, which differentiated it even more from Pull.

-Damage changed from 30 to 40 damage
By increasing Singularity's base damage, the power would become a more viable option against protected targets. Because Singularity's Base Duration is now longer than its Hold Duration, you can cast the power on protected targets, and still manage to lift them.

Protected targets are staggered when they remain in the Singularity; combine Singularity's damage and your weapons to strip the defenses, allowing the enemy to be lifted by Hold Duration.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Singularity was the power that I tested the most, since it is what makes the Adept unique with our new bonus power system. Each class has 4 powers that can be unlocked as bonus powers for other classes, but one power that is specific to that class.

I needed Singularity to be worth its class-exclusive power, and also different from Pull. That said, I'm working on testing the other powers as well. So far, the biggest change I feel that is required is Impulse.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Impulse, while a great power in theory, seemed like it was in a weird spot. It took Warp's role as a primary detonator, yet by itself, it lacked utility. The power was difficult to balance, but that may have been because it was very hard to test using current ME3 powers (heavily-modified Flare).

Nevertheless, I couldn't balance the power with how it worked currently. So I'm considering on making it a grenade power...

More to come as I test more things...

Modifié par Soja57, 06 février 2014 - 01:48 .

[RedCaesar97]

Okay, getting back to powers. This is something I was thinking about for the past few days.

QUESTION: Should single-target powers -- like Cryo Blast, Throw, or Pull -- even have radius evolutions? For most powers, it seems that radius evolutions are better than the opposite evolution. This can make it hard to balance some evolutions, like we have seen with Pull.

Take ME2 for example. Because of the game mechanics:
 - Powers better with Radius evolution: Pull, Cryo Blast, Overload, Incinerate, Reave, Flashbang, Neural Shock, Concussive Shot, Energy Drain
 - Powers better with the non-radius evolution: AI Hacking, Dominate, Singularity
 - Powers where radius evo depends on playstyle or does not matter: Throw, Inferno Grenade (because who cares)

In ME3, the list is slightly different:
 - Powers better with Radius: Reave, Slam, Pull, Proximity Mine, Concussive Shot
 - Powers better with the non-radius evolution: Throw, Lift/Cluster/Frag/Sticky/Inferno Grenades
 - Powers where radius evo depends on personal preference or does not matter: Incinerate, Overload (radius being chain overload), Carnage, Energy Drain, Singularity


NOTE: These lists are my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

So I am wondering if -- with exceptions like Singularity where radius is built in -- powers should remain single-target in our new structure? Note that this could cause problems with some powers like Incinerate where you do not have many options to begin with.


QUESTION 2: If you do include radius evolutions, how do you make the other option equally attractive? Do you add penalties to the radius option (like I did in my suggestions)?

Or do you make the radius option "bad" enough so that it stops working at higher difficulties? For example, if on the hardest difficulty mode (Hard, Insanity, or whatever you want to call it) Radius Overload cannot fully strip the shields of the most basic of mooks even with max power damage bonuses elsewhere, does that make it balanced, or just not viable on higher difficulties, meaning you locked out an evolution on certain difficulties.

And for multi-evolution system like ME3, you could balance the radius evolution with its opposite evolution, but would the radius evolution still be more attractive if it couples better with the other evolution choices? This is the problem that Pull and Cryo Blast have in ME3, where the radius just becomes the much better option.



Thoughts?

Modifié par RedCaesar97, 04 février 2014 - 01:10 .

[RedCaesar97]

@Soja57:

Great that you did some testing. I am still not sure that the duration of singularity should be different than the hold duration. If you find it is too short, then maybe the base duration should be increased? Or would it be too long then with duration modifiers from passives/evolutions?

Do you think Singularity should be instant-cast? I always felt that the ME2 and ME3 Adept lacked instant-cast abilities. I feel that Singularity should be instant-cast and possibly Warp as well. At least with Singularity, having it instant-cast would help differentiate it from Pull more and also give Pull more utility when combined with your changes. Instantly cast on protected enemies, then you could use Pull on enemies behind cover or other unprotected enemies.

Not sure if that is changeable with coalesced changes. I know it has a cast speed and you could increase it so it moves fast enough that it could it seem instant. But what if you set it to 0 or -1? I know for some program code (no ME-related), changing a setting value to 0 means infinite/never, but for ME it could mean instant. Or maybe it would just crash the game.

[Soja57]

Radius Evolutions
I think making certain single-target powers miss out on radius evolutions takes out a lot of content with powers. For example, who doesn't love Throwing multiple Husks away or freezing them? It also presents a form of playstyle, ultimate CC vs a single target, or CC against multiple targets albeit a bit weaker?

But I can see the issue with a few Radius evolutions. A couple things I have tried is adding a base radius to powers that would normally highly benefit from a radius evo (Pull, Throw, Cryo Blast). So you can still potentially hit multiple targets if they are very close, but choosing the radius evo would increase its capability.

Adding in too much negative bonuses to the Radius evo seems like too many strings attached to that particular evolution. Your example with Overload: Overload should be able to strip the defenses of very basic enemies before the said evolution/rank, but the radius would allow stripping of multiple basic enemies. The counter evolution would be a high efficiency against higher-tier enemies. Though, Overload itself is a decent power with no issues of Radius evolution.

Radius evolutions should stay in, but both evolutions should be viable without significantly hindering other stats of the power. I'm still working on Pull's 4th rank and trying to see how Lift Force factors into the power. Well, I'd like to ask, what do you think of how I handled Throw's 4th rank? Choice between Direct Damage and Force/Radius.

Singularity
If I increase Singularity's Hold Duration, then it would be too easy to create biotic combos. It also shuts down enemies for too long; basic enemies should still be threat even though they are at health only.

I think regarding instant-cast, it may be more difficult to curve powers with instant-cast. Or it may be visually-awkward when you Throw an enemy to the left when curving the power with instant-cast.

Although making the projectile significantly faster would be great. I like seeing the trail of Singularity when I curve it, as it gives a good indication of where I casted the power. Faster allows for quicker and more efficient combo and CC.

I tested around with fast projectile speed, and I got very inconsistent results. It was hard to curve any projectile power to hit targets in cover a level higher than I was. Also, when targets were hit with Pull or Throw, they would move in a completely random direction. Overall, the current speed in ME3 is good for consistent gameplay.

When using zero for projectile speed, the projectile just stays in place in front of Shepard, and doesn't deploy. With negative values, the power moves backwards and most likely strays off-course without hitting the target.

Modifié par Soja57, 04 février 2014 - 02:23 .

[RedCaesar97]

Soja57 wrote...

Adding in too much negative bonuses to the Radius evo seems like too many strings attached to that particular evolution. Your example with Overload: Overload should be able to strip the defenses of very basic enemies before the said evolution/rank, but the radius would allow stripping of multiple basic enemies. The counter evolution would be a high efficiency against higher-tier enemies. Though, Overload itself is a decent power with no issues of Radius evolution.

But to me, that is an issue with Overload: If I have the opportunity to take an evolution that can strip the shields off multiple basic enemies at once, I will take that every time, since basic enemies are the most common. It does not matter what the other evolution is, unless you have tech detonations and the other power increases tech detonation damage, radius, and force.

Well, I'd like to ask, what do you think of how I handled Throw's 4th rank? Choice between Direct Damage and Force/Radius.

With throw, that choice is fine. Although for me, I will always take the direct damage if I have a radius Pull: Radius Pull for mutliple enemies, single-target throw for a single enemy. The only exception would possibly be for a ME2/ME3 Sentinel or as an unlockable bonus power for an Engineer with Cryo Blast if I want to try and have fun with Radius Cryo Blast + Radius Throw.

[RedCaesar97]

Okay, another question:

Should powers designed to strip defenses (Warp, Overload, Incinerate) be able to strip the shields off a basic enemy on the hardest difficulty starting at rank 1, or should you need to add extra power damage first, either through passives and/or power ranks?

The reason I ask is related to how the game would handle enemy health/protection values. Consider:
1) Enemy health/protection values are fixed. Enemies have the same heath/protections throughout the entire game. With this setup, a defense-stripping power would need to strip protections at rank 1 to make it worth using at rank 1.

2) Enemy health/protection values scale with the player's rank. Enemies gain health/protections as the player levels up. This is how ME2/ME3 handles enemy health/protection values. With this setup, a defense-stripping power can gain power damage as the player allots skill points, allowing it to always strip defenses of basic enemies.

[Soja57]

I think enemy health/protections should somewhat scale with the player's rank.

Rank 1 powers should be able to strip the defenses of most but not all basic enemies on the hardest difficulty up to mid to late game playthroughs. However, I'd say there should be few basic enemies such as Geth who require more power damage in order to fully strip their shields.

Perhaps also include more mid-tier enemies to the factions, or perhaps just add more units per faction in general.

[Soja57]

Adept Changes

I've made some changes to the Adept after extensive in-game testing. Some changes may be controversial, thus I would like some input. Here is a changelog, which is also at the beginning of my Adept post.

Changelog

-Added new guidelines
-Fixed descriptions for piercing evolutions for clarity on mechanics
-Formatting changed for powers to reduce eye-sore from extreme boldness and allow an easier distinction between ranks and evolutions
-Changed the changelog to only incorporate major changes; previous balance changes are now applied in full

Singularity
-Singularity now has a distinction between Singularity Duration and Hold Duration

Throw
-Added 30 Base Damage
-Force multiplier removed but Base Force increased from 600 to 900 N, making Throw more of a viable option as a bonus power
-With Rank 4 Radius, Throw now can obtain a 2.5 meter radius due to 1 meter base radius

Pull
-Added 30 Base Damage
-With Rank 4 Radius, Pull now can obtain a 2.5 meter radius due to 1 meter base radius

Warp
-Warp now detonates biotically-primed enemies at Rank 1 due to changes to Impulse, Detonation Warp evolution changed to Unstable Warp evolution
-Warp debuff moved to evolution and also increased its effectiveness

Impulse Grenade
-Was originally a cooldown-based power, but lacked utility outside of its Impulse detonation and felt underpowered for its lengthy cooldown, thus felt the power needed to change
-Detonation has been moved to an evolution

Modifié par Soja57, 06 février 2014 - 01:43 .

[Soja57]

And suddenly, my Engineer class. There are a couple of guidelines to follow along with the Engineer class, particularly a revamped tech combo system.

1. Tech combos have been removed, and only a few combos can be accomplished via evolutions. The only real combos are Omni-combos and a Shatter combo, though some powers can be used together for very high effectiveness, but without being classified as a true combo.

2. Omni-combo is primed when an enemy is attacked by the Combat Drone. Any following tech power has significantly increased effectiveness vs primed enemies. Only one omni-combo can be performed per drone cast.

3. Shatter combo occurs when an enemy is frozen by Cryo Blast, and then killed by Incinerate's Instant Damage. This causes an explosion that deals massive damage against nearby enemies, particularly armor.

4. All Weapons have a damage multiplier vs certain protections like how they were in ME2. So SMGs and Shotguns are generally good against shields and barriers, Sniper Rifles and Pistols are good against armor, while Assault Rifles are good at stripping all protections, but not the best against a particular protection in comparison to the previous weapon categories.

____________________________________________________________________________




Health
-Capacity = 600 health (3 segments, 200 health per segment)
-Regeneration = 6 seconds (4 second delay, 2 seconds per segment)

Shields
-Capacity = 600 shields
-Regeneration = 8 seconds (4 second delay, 25% restored per second)

Heavy Melee: Flaming Omni-Tool
Ignite enemies with your omni-tool, panicking unprotected organic enemies and dealing bonus damage vs armor.
-Instant Damage = 300 damage (1.5x vs Armor)
-Damage Per Second = 50 damage (1.5x vs Armor)
-Duration = 3 second
-Impact Radius = 1.5 meters

____________________________________________________________________________


Combat Drone

Deploy a mobile drone that shocks the targeted enemy to damage and distract them. Does not stagger targets.

Rank 1: Combat Drone
-Shock Damage = 20 damage (2x vs shields)
-Shock Rate = 2 attacks per second (or 0.5 second shock interval)
-Shock Range = 10 meters
-Drone Shields = 900 shields
-Cooldown = 3 seconds

Rank 2: Cooldown
-Cooldown +20%

Rank 3: Damage & Shields
-Damage & Shields +20%

Rank 4:

a. Damage & Shields
-Damage & Shields +30%

b. Explosive Drone
-Drone explodes when destroyed, damaging and staggering all targets.
-Explosive Damage = 180 damage
-Explosive Radius = 5 meters

Rank 5:

a. Chain Lightning
-The drone's shock attack can jump to damage and distract 2 other targets within 8 meters.

b. Omni-Combo
-The enemy currently attacked by the drone is primed for an Omni-Combo. A tech power used on the primed enemy will have significantly increased effectiveness. Only one omni-combo per drone cast.
-Combo Damage = 1.5x
-Combo Radius = 1.5x
-Combo Duration = 1.5x


- - - - - - - - - -


Sabotage

Hacks synthetics to fight for your side, while temporarily sabotaging the weapons and powers of other enemies. Both effects can work through protections, but lose 50% of duration for every successive cast on the same target.

Rank 1: Sabotage
-Synthetic Hack Duration = 12 seconds (0.5x per successive cast)
-Sabotage Duration = 4 seconds (0.5x per successive cast)
-Cooldown = 6 seconds

Rank 2: Cooldown
-Cooldown +20%

Rank 3: Duration
-Duration +30%

Rank 4:

a. Synthetic Overclock
Hacked synthetics move faster and deal more damage. When a synthetic dies during the duration of this power, they will detonate to damage nearby enemies.
-Hacked Synthetic Damage = +50% damage
-Hacked Synthetic Speed = +20% movement speed
-Explosion Damage = 180 damage
-Explosion Radius = 5 meters

b. Lasting Sabotage
-Even after enemy organic weapons and powers are restored after being sabotaged, their weapons and powers remain in a weakened state for awhile longer, along with slowing down enemy power use. Cannot stack with itself.
-Enemy Penalty = 30% penalty to enemy weapon damage, power damage, power cooldown
-Enemy Penalty Duration = Same as Synthetic Hack Duration (0.5x per successive cast)

Rank 5:

a. Tech Vulnerability
-Tech power damage +30% vs targets affected by Sabotage (both hacked synthetics and sabotaged organics). Works against enemies affected by Lasting Sabotage.

b. Sabotage Link
-When a hacked synthetic dies, sabotage's effects can jump to another target within 8 meters. This jump prioritizes on hacking another synthetic target, but if there isn't any synthetic within the vicinity, the jump effect sabotages the combat capabilities of organics. Can allow for multiple jumps if all linked targets are synthetics.
-Jump Radius = 8 meters
-Duration +45%


- - - - - - - - - -


Overload

Shock enemies with this power surge, stunning synthetic enemies. Does not stun organics or hacked synthetic targets. Deals bonus damage vs shields.

Rank 1: Overload
-Instant Damage = 150 damage (2x vs Shields)
-Stun Duration = 3 seconds
-Cooldown = 6 seconds

Rank 2: Cooldown
-Cooldown +20%

Rank 3: Damage
-Damage +20%

Rank 4:

a. Heavy Overload
-Damage +30%, Duration +50%

b. Shield Stun
Overload can stun any unprotected and shielded target. 50% stun effectiveness vs shielded targets that have armor under their shields.

Rank 5:

a. Synthetic Overload
-Deals 1.5x damage vs synthetics, regardless of protections (stacks with base shield multiplier for 3x shield damage vs synthetics). Synthetics killed by this power explode to damage nearby enemies (Can stack with Sabotage Overclock evo).
-Explosion Damage = Same as Overload Damage
-Explosion Radius = 5 meters

b. Chain Overload
-Overload can jump to 2 additional targets within 8 meters, but dealing 0.5x damage per jump.


- - - - - - - - - -


Incinerate

Ignite enemies into flames, panicking unprotected organic enemies and dealing bonus damage vs armor. Synthetic enemies are also dealt full damage but will not panic.

Rank 1: Incinerate
-Instant Damage = 100 damage (2x vs Armor)
-Damage Per Second = 33.34 damage (2x vs Armor)
-Duration = 3 seconds (DPS and panic duration)
-Impact Radius = 1 meter
-Cooldown = 6 seconds

Rank 2: Cooldown
-Cooldown +20%

Rank 3: Duration
-Duration +30%

Rank 4a:

a. Damaging Incinerate
-Damage +30%

b. Area Incinerate
-Impact Radius +1.5 meters

Rank 5:

a. Heavy Burn
-Damage Per Second +50%, Duration +30%
-Deals 1.5x damage vs organics, regardless of protections (stacks with base armor multiplier for 3x armor damage vs organics).

b. Shatter Combo
-Instant Damage +50%
-Killing a frozen enemy with Incinerate's Instant Damage will create a Shatter Explosion. A Shatter Explosion increases Incinerate's Instant Damage and Radius, but does not increase Incinerate's damage over time.
-Shatter Instant Damage = 1.5x Incinerate Instant Damage (Gains Armor Multiplier as well)
-Shatter Radius = 2x Incinerate Radius


- - - - - - - - - -


Cryo Blast

Freeze unprotected enemies in place while increasing damage that frozen enemies take from all sources. Protected enemies are chilled and have reduced movement speed, but armored targets are also weakened against any form of damage.

Rank 1: Cryo Blast
-Frozen/Armor Damage Multiplier = 1.2x (Does not affect the currently-casted Cryo Blast, but can affect successive Cryo Blasts)
-Direct Damage = 30 damage (Deals only 0.5x damage vs shielded and barrier targets)
-Movement Speed Reduction = 45%
-Duration = 3 seconds (1.5x for movement speed reduction)
-Impact Radius = 1 meter
-Cooldown = 3 seconds

Rank 2: Cooldown
-Cooldown +20%

Rank 3: Duration
-Duration +20%

Rank 4:

a. Area Freeze
-Impact Radius +1.5 meters

b. Heavy Freeze
-Duration +30%, Movement Speed Reduction +30%

Rank 5:

a. Deep Freeze
-Cryo Blast deals massive damage to enemies upon impact, along with further weakening frozen and armored targets.
-Direct Damage 4x
-Frozen/Armor Multiplier Bonus = +20% (or +0.2x for a total of 1.4x)

b. Piercing Freeze
-Can freeze through shields and barriers while also allowing Direct Damage to deal full damage, but freeze duration is 0.5x as effective. Movement Speed Debuff Duration remains the same.


- - - - - - - - - -


Tech Mastery

Improve the Engineer's abilities in combat.

Rank 1: Tech Mastery
-Power Damage Bonus = +10%
-Power Cooldown Bonus = +10%
-Weight Capacity Bonus = +10%

Rank 2: Power Damage
-Power Damage Bonus +10%

Rank 3: Weight Capacity
-Weight Capacity +10%

Rank 4:

a. Power Damage
-Power Damage +25%

b. Power Cooldown
-Power Cooldown Bonus +20%

Rank 5:

a. Unlock Demolisher Specialization
-Specialize in obliterating enemy targets with your omni-tool.

b. Unlock Mechanic Specialization
-Specialize in using your omni-tool to bolster combat performance.

____________________________________________________________________________


Specializations:

- - - - - - - - - -

Demolisher Specialization (Unlock via Tech Mastery)
Specialize in obliterating enemy targets with your omni-tool.

Rank 1: Demolisher Specialization
-Power Duration Bonus = +25%
-Power Radius Bonus = +25%

Rank 2: Power Duration
-Power Duration +15%

Rank 3: Power Radius
-Power Radius +15%

Rank 4:

a. Power Bonus
-Power Damage +25%
-Power Duration +10%

b. Machine Mastery
Any machine under your control (drone, hacked synthetics, or perhaps bonus power if applicable) deal more damage, are more resilient to damage, and move faster.
-Machinery Damage = +50% damage
-Machinery Damage Protection = +50% damage protection
-Machinery Speed = +20% movement speed

Rank 5:

a. Power Mastery
-Powers that have a multiplier vs certain defenses (shields, barriers, armor) have an increased multiplier.
-Multiplier Increase = 1.25x

b. Caster Mastery (Work in Progress)
-???????????

- - - - - - - - - -


Mechanic Specialization (Unlock via Tech Mastery)
Specialize in using your omni-tool to bolster combat performance.

Rank 1: Mechanic Specialization
-Health & Shields Bonus = +20%
-Melee Damage = +25%

Rank 2: Weight Capacity
-Weight Capacity Bonus +15%

Rank 3: Health & Shields
-Health & Shields Bonus +25%

Rank 4:

a. Shield Bonus
-Shield Delay Reduction +40%

b. Melee Mastery
-Melee Damage +25%
-Heavy Melee deals 1.5x damage vs organics, regardless of protections (stacks with base armor multiplier for 2.25x armor damage vs organics). Heavy melee duration +50%, allowing it to panic unprotected organic enemies longer while increasing its overall damage dealt over time.

Rank 5:

a. Shield Mastery
-Health & Shields Bonus +30%
-Shield Regeneration Rate +40%.

b. Shield Modifier
-Weapons deal 1.2x damage vs Shields (Multiplies base weapon shield multiplier)

Modifié par Soja57, 14 février 2014 - 05:20 .

[RedCaesar97]

@Soja57:

1) Interesting that testing your Impulse power showed it lacked utility when it was a cooldown-based power. So now it is a consumable. Hmmmm. I wonder if there was something else you could have done to still make it a cooldown-based power? I am assuming that reducing its cooldown did not help?

2) The other changes seem pretty minor as they are just some balancing changes. Glad Warp detonates biotically-primed enemies now starting at rank 1 instead of an evolution. That was a defining feature of Warp since ME2.

- - - 
- - - 

I think I am going to start work on an Engineer, and then maybe revisit my Adept. For the Engineer:

1) I think I may try 2 versions: one without tech detonations (a la ME2) and one with tech detonations (tweaked ME3 system).

2) I am going to try to use Soja57's method of 3 ranks, then 2 ranks of two evolutions each.

3) Previously, I was basing power cooldown on a 4 - 6 - 8 second base cooldown with a -50% hard cap (for a max 2 - 3 - 4 second cooldown). -25% from power rank and -25% from passive.

I think I am going to use Soja57's/ME3 dynamic cooldown system and go to a 3 - 4.5 - 6 second base cooldown system. Like Soja, "weapon weight" will not be added to the formula; if this was ME3, then weight capacity=0%. What I will do however, is have the following bonuses:
> -25% from power rank 2
> -25% from passive talent rank(s)
> -25% from armor if chosen *

* In my head, armor starts with 0 bonuses to stats. You can purchase upgrades/armor that allow you to modify armor stats in the following areas:
- Power Damage
- Power Cooldown
- Shields
- Health
- Shield Regen speed

In this system, you can add a stat bonus but only if you subtract one other stat bonus (you cannot subtract from multiple stats to increase one stat). You can add/subtract up to +/-25%

So cooldowns would be as follows for -0% --> -25% --> -50% --> -75%
> 6 --> 4.8 --> 4 --> 3.43
> 4.5 --> 3.6 --> 3 --> 2.57
> 3 --> 2.4 --> 2 --> 1.71

Incidently, this closely resembles the maximum tech/biotic cooldowns in ME2 for the Soldier, Infiltrator/Adept, and Engineer respectively. Note that if I tweaked the formula so you could get +100% cooldown, then the cooldowns would resemble the max cooldowns of the ME2 Sentinel (3, 2, and 1.5). Not sure I want to go that far.

Modifié par RedCaesar97, 06 février 2014 - 02:10 .