224 réponses à ce sujet

[RedCaesar97]

@Soja57: I took a quick glance at your Vanguard. I think it looks pretty balanced. I have small suggestion for a Charge evolution, but I want to take a closer look at it before I provide a full review.

@Abraham_uk: I will look at your stuff after Soja's.


Also, I think I might scrap my idea about a tech-detonation Engineer. It works in my head if I limit it to "only certain tech powers can prime and/or detonate". But who knows.


- - - 

Soja57 wrote...

1. I gotta say, ammo powers are now more awesome than ever. I didn't like how ME3 gave all of the ammo powers the same rank 5 evolutions, which felt like lazy design. My changes now makes each ammo power have unique evolutions. Of course, I need to do some research on how ammo powers proc, and how certain weapons stagger.

I saw these posts by capn233 in another thread:

capn233 wrote...

known_hero wrote...

The Kishock is one of my favorite weapons. I wonder if combined with Cryo Ammo, will it freeze enemies with one shot?

Proc chance is basically dependent on stat rate of fire in this game. Kishock has ROF of 70, which is fairly close to 60.

Proc chance = AmmoRating / (ROF / 60)

Cryo Ammo 1 has a rating of 1.0, IIRC

capn233 wrote...

known_hero wrote...

Every single shot sniper rifle can instantly freeze enemies with one shot, right?

Most have rates of fire that are around 60, so they are likely to freeze most of the time even with Cryo Ammo rank 1.  Rank 2 Cryo Ammo makes it basically certain with any of the slow ROF rifles.

- - -

Soja57 wrote...

2. I've attempted to address several issues with Cloak, such as making duration spec more viable and preventing Cloak from severely violating the cooldown system as it currently does.

I think we all have ideas that can make Cloak more balanced, but I am not sure if any of them are easily modable. It would probably require re-designing the power from scratch.

Modifié par RedCaesar97, 15 février 2014 - 07:29 .

[Soja57]

EDIT: After searcing around the forums, this is rather old news, but whatever.

Been testing my Soldier class lately in the Armax Arena lately, and wow, Incendiary Ammo damage seems bugged. Got very inconsistent results, because the burn damage over time doesn't stack as how one would expect.

-Cerberus Assault Trooper = 675 health
-Avenger Damage = 67.5 (10 shots to kill)
-Incendiary Ammo = +100% weapon damage as burn damage (essentially 2x damage, for test purposes)
-Avenger + Incendiary Total Damage = 135 (5 shots to kill)

I shoot the Cerberus trooper with a single shot, waiting for the burn damage to take effect and disappear before firing another shot. With this, it takes exactly 5 shots total (+ their burn damage), as one would expect.

However, shooting 3 shots in rapid succession managed to take down the Cerberus Trooper as the burn damage stacked with each shot. I made sure that I wasn't getting any headshots by using keybindings to slow down time while I shot. Basically, Avenger + Incendiary Ammo was doing about roughly between 11%~42% more damage than it should have when the burn damage stacks.

What a shame, I was hoping to test Incendiary Ammo on my redesigned Soldier, but every little variable matters in controlled testing.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Anyway, some stuff for discussion. What are everyone's thoughts on Adrenaline Rush? Particularly regarding both Rank 6 evolutions (Shield Boost and Bonus Power), and Hardened at Rank 4.

In my tests, Hardened seemed somewhat insignificant, but bumping it up to 35% made it more noticeable, though with shield/health bonuses and bonus power granting damage reduction, that may be a bit much. I might go with something similar to ME2 Hardened Adrenaline Rush, where health gains massive damage protection.

Shield Boost doesn't really make sense on Adrenaline Rush. I'm under the assumption that Adrenaline Rush releases adrenaline/endorphins to stimulate the body's performance in combat. Hardened can somewhat slip by as at least it makes sense for damage protection on player health.

I'm thinking of keeping Bonus Power, but making it add 50% of the offensive power's cooldown to Adrenaline Rush's cooldown. So let's say Adrenaline Rush has a 6 second cooldown, and Concussive Shot has 3 seconds. Using Concussive Shot as the offensive power would add 1.5 seconds, for a total of a 7.5 second cooldown.

I'm thinking of doing something similar to Tactical Cloak. Any thoughts?

Modifié par Soja57, 16 février 2014 - 06:50 .

[Abraham_uk]

I agree with adding a 50% bonus idea for both adrenaline rush and tactical cloak.
Go for it.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 18 février 2014 - 12:32 .

[RedCaesar97]

@Soja57: A few comments about your Vanguard;

1) Biotic Charge looks really balanced. Just a few comments:

a) Interesting that your Biotic Charge has a 1m Impact Radius. I am curious as to why you gave it a radius at rank 1, or is that actually in ME3 as well?

Does Focused Charge (Charge rank 4a) actually need additional weapon damage? I would consider removing that.

2) Nova looks really balanced.

3) Lasso seems interesting. Looks a lot like Lash with some minor changes. Seems pretty balanced, although without being able to test it, rank 4b Dual Lasso seems better than Rank 4a Heavy Lasso (although it could be twice as dangerous).

4) Stimulant Pack seems pretty balanced.

5) Warp Ammo rank 5a: I wonder if it needs a little extra damage? But maybe I am assuming that you would always try to prime enemies first, which would be a false assumption.

6) Assault Mastery looks pretty good.

7) Destroyer looks pretty good.

8) Champion looks pretty good as well.

I would consider switching Champion and Destroyer, so Destroyer is your combat and weapons, and Champion is your combat and biotics.


Other than that, your Vanguard looks great.

[RedCaesar97]

Soja57 wrote...

Anyway, some stuff for discussion. What are everyone's thoughts on Adrenaline Rush? Particularly regarding both Rank 6 evolutions (Shield Boost and Bonus Power), and Hardened at Rank 4.

In my tests, Hardened seemed somewhat insignificant, but bumping it up to 35% made it more noticeable, though with shield/health bonuses and bonus power granting damage reduction, that may be a bit much. I might go with something similar to ME2 Hardened Adrenaline Rush, where health gains massive damage protection.
....

I think with Hardened, you need to get at least 50% damage reduction. I think it depends on whether or not you add damage protection at an earlier rank (1 or 3, assuming rank 2 is cooldown). 

Although with a bonus power, it may depend on how much damage protection you allow from a bonus power. So maybe 40% then?

So in your mind (before testing), what is the max damage protection you think should get from a bonus power? 25%? 40% 50%?


Another question: Are you using ME3 damage protection mechanics which penalizes you -40% damage reduction when out of cover on Insanity?

Shield Boost doesn't really make sense on Adrenaline Rush. I'm under the assumption that Adrenaline Rush releases adrenaline/endorphins to stimulate the body's performance in combat. Hardened can somewhat slip by as at least it makes sense for damage protection on player health.

This is partially why earlier in the thread I wanted to categorize powers. As an "armor power", you can can explain it by having your armor hardsuit release adrenaline/endorphins into your bloodstream, and with the Shield Boost evolution, your suit recharges its own shields when activating the power.

I'm thinking of keeping Bonus Power, but making it add 50% of the offensive power's cooldown to Adrenaline Rush's cooldown. So let's say Adrenaline Rush has a 6 second cooldown, and Concussive Shot has 3 seconds. Using Concussive Shot as the offensive power would add 1.5 seconds, for a total of a 7.5 second cooldown.

I'm thinking of doing something similar to Tactical Cloak. Any thoughts?

I am inclined to maybe remove Bonus Power so you do not have that problem. Maybe something like:

4a: Increased Time Dilation
4b: Increased Duration

5a: Hardened
5b: Shield Boost

It may also depend on whether you want to add Melee damage in there as well. Adrenaline has been known to increase strength.

And yes, I think Weapon Damage should be removed from Adrenaline Rush. I never liked it as part of the power.

 - - -

As for Bonus Power to Tactical Cloak, I don't think Cloak should have ever allowed you to use one power while cloaked, let alone two with Bonus Power.

"Bonus Power" should have allowed you to use one (1) power while cloaked, but then cloak breaks.


Those are just my thoughts.

[Soja57]

@RedCaesar97

I don't know if Biotic Charge needed a Base Radius. I just threw it in there because that's been the theme with powers that have a Rank 4 Radius evolution. Might just be better to remove it.

With Focused Charge, I wanted to incorporate Biotic Charge's Weapon Synergy evolution, as I felt that with only Time Dilation, the opposite evolution "Rank 4b Heavy Charge: Damage, Force, Radius" was way better. I may consider enhancing the Time Dilation effects but slightly reducing the damage bonus.

I personally think Rank 4 for Lasso is balanced. The range boost is very significant, along with the perks of damage and duration.

I don't really understand what you are asking with Warp Ammo. Are you talking about Unstable or Enhanced Warp Ammo?

Yeah, I should change around the specialization names to follow ME2 format.

- - - - - - - - - -

I am quite surprised at your review, as usually you have a lot more to say. Though I guess my Vanguard is well designed. There are so many potential builds and playstyles with this Vanguard. I might have to do what Abraham_uk is doing and perhaps come up with potential builds.

Modifié par Soja57, 16 février 2014 - 07:51 .

[Soja57]

 I think a bonus power such as Fortification should grant a maximum of 40% Damage Protection. I haven't done any tests on Damage Protection, though I did mod to remove the 40% penalty when out of cover. I'll probably start testing this soon.

I suppose that Shield Boost makes sense when Adrenaline Rush is an armor power. I'll have to think about it some more.

I have mixed opinions on Bonus Power. It does partially bypass the cooldown system, which is unfair for other classes, but it also somewhat cuts down on Concussive Shot use. The problem with the combat classes in ME2 (Soldier, Infiltrator, Vanguard) was that they were too much of "one-trick ponies" because of their signature power. Sentinel could also potentially be lumped under the same category.

Adept was good because of biotic combos (detonations and physics-based). Engineer was good because each power had a different role in various situations.

For now, I think bonus power is balanced with the 50% penalty. Also, the way that I am handling Cloak means that bonus power at base is actually fairly balanced, at least in my eyes.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

I think Weapon Damage bonus fits for Adrenaline Rush. It doesn't particularly make much sense lore-wise, but Adrenaline Rush isn't very useful with just Time Dilation alone. The Infiltrator gets Time Dilation bonuses from passives, therefore Adrenaline Rush needs something extra.

Besides, I think removing Weapon Damage drastically changes the Soldier class too much, and seems to be "fixing" what isn't broken. Maybe in ME2 it was broken, but ME3 handled Adrenaline Rush pretty well.

Modifié par Soja57, 16 février 2014 - 07:46 .

[RedCaesar97]

Soja57 wrote...
I think Weapon Damage bonus fits for Adrenaline Rush. It doesn't particularly make much sense lore-wise, but Adrenaline Rush isn't very useful with just Time Dilation alone. The Infiltrator gets Time Dilation bonuses from passives, therefore Adrenaline Rush needs something extra.

Besides, I think removing Weapon Damage drastically changes the Soldier class too much, and seems to be "fixing" what isn't broken. Maybe in ME2 it was broken, but ME3 handled Adrenaline Rush pretty well.

We just have different philosophies with how these powers should work.

As it currently stands, ME3 Adrenaline Rush:
 - adds weapon damage
 - adds time dilation
 - can add damage protection
 - can add melee damage
 - can add shields or allow you to use another power

You can remove the weapon damage and Adrenaline Rush still works just fine:
 - reduce incoming damage
 - increase speed so you can rush/flank the enemy or take a new defensive postion
 - slow down time to line up a headshot


And as it stands, you are already giving the weapons-oriented classes extra weapon damage in their passives, which means they will already deal more weapon damage than the casting-oriented classes. I just do not think you need to add additional weapon damage in a power unless it is a weapon-based power like Marksman. (I can see maybe adding additional weapon damage to Cloak, but only as a rank 5 evolution that grants something like +x% weapon damage for 0.5 seconds or something).

Modifié par RedCaesar97, 16 février 2014 - 08:34 .

[capn233]

Soja57 wrote...

However, shooting 3 shots in rapid succession managed to take down the Cerberus Trooper as the burn damage stacked with each shot. I made sure that I wasn't getting any headshots by using keybindings to slow down time while I shot. Basically, Avenger + Incendiary Ammo was doing about roughly between 11%~42% more damage than it should have when the burn damage stacks.

I can look in the code and see, but I think it was assumed that Incendiary Ammo in SP uses the same incorrect DOT update formula as the match consumable and as such will stack incorrectly.  In SP it is harder to notice because most people are taking IEB which will add an enormous amount of damage with rapid fire weapons by itself, which is instant damage.

edit: Yep, it is wrong.  Basically since it is DOT the formula should be adding the new hit damage as a rate (since that is how the formula is based), but instead adds it as total damage.  DOT length is 3s, and is always 3s, so by itself each hit should increase the rate more or less 3x higher than it should if it hits while DOT is still active.

edit2: one thing I forgot to mention.  The Rank 5 choices are the interesting ones because they don't actually affect the ammo itself whatsoever.  The extra ammo is obvious, but the headshot bonus is actually a weapon headshot damage modifier.

Modifié par capn233, 17 février 2014 - 01:19 .

[Soja57]

As it currently stands, I am sticking with damage bonuses for Cloak and Adrenaline Rush, since that is how both Cloak and Adrenaline Rush have been in ME2 and ME3 (though Cloak Rank 1 in ME2 had no base damage bonus).

I will try to test these two powers with and without damage bonuses, and see how they compare to the Adept, Engineer, and Vanguard at base. Perhaps my opinion may change, though I'm going in these tests with the impression that damage bonus is somewhat necessary.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Also, anything new on class redesigns? I've still got a long way before I can post mine, therefore I am patiently waiting for anyone's redesign.

[Abraham_uk]

Soja57 wrote...
Also, anything new on class redesigns? I've still got a long way before I can post mine, therefore I am patiently waiting for anyone's redesign.

Tommorow I'll be delivering my Infiltrator redesign.

[Abraham_uk]

Base Health: 500
Shields: 500

Heavy Melee: Disruptor Omniblade slash
Running Heavy Melee: Running Disruptor Omniblade Thrust

Carry Capacity: Can carry 3 guns in combat (4 if weapons' training has been chosen in Stealth Mastery)


___________________________________________________________________________


Tactical Cloak: 

Become invisible and gain a massive damage bonus when breaking to attack.
Please note that without power synergy evolution, you will be unable to use powers whilst cloaked.

Rank 1: Unlock:

Base Recharge Speed: 10 seconds
Duration: 6 seconds
Damage Bonus: 20% (this applies to guns and melee. Not powers)


Rank 2a: Duration Cloak:
Increase duration by 30%

Rank 2b: Damage Bonus: 
Damage bonus for guns and melee increased by 20%


Rank 3a: Recharge Speed:
Reduce the cooldown of tactical cloak by 20%

Rank 3b: Silent Running:
Sprinting does not break you from tactical cloak.
 

Rank 4a: Shadow Strike:
An additional 20% damage to melee attacks. 


Rank 4b: Power Synergy:
Can use one power without breaking from cloak.
In addition, Decoy, Proximity Mine and Smoke Screen deal 20% extra damage.
Please note that using a power during tactical cloak, will increase tactical cloaks cooldown by 30%. 


Rank 5a: Assassin Cloak:
+50% Headshot Damage


Rank 5b: Marksman Cloak:
Can fire up to 10 shots from a fully automatic weapon without breaking from tactical cloak.
Can fire up to 3 shots from a semi automatic weapon without breaking from tactical cloak.
Can fire 1 additional shot from a non-automatic weapon without breaking from tactical cloak.

In addition, this evolution reduces recoil by 50%

___________________________________________________________________________


Decoy

Distract oponents with a holographic version of the caster.The decoy is usually deployed 2 metres in front of the caster.


Rank 1: Unlock

Recharge Speed: 5 seconds
Duration: 10 seconds
Decoy Shields: 800

Rank 2a: Durable Decoy
Increases Decoy Shields by 50%

Rank 2b: Duration Decoy
Increases Decoy Duration by 50%


Rank 3a: Shock Pulse
When the decoy's shields are depleted, they will explode dealing 100 points of damage (x2 versus shields and barriers), to all foes within 2m radius of the decoy.

Rank 3b: Mobile Decoy 
The decoy will be more mobile, moving around the battle field and copying your movements. Whilst this decoy can't shoot, use melee attacks or launch powers, they will look as though they are.


Rank 4a: Durable Decoy: Increases decoy shields by 50% and decoy duration by 50%.

Rank 4b: Rapid Decoy: Reduces recharge speed of decoy by 50%, but also reduces duration by 30%.


Rank 5a: Double Decoy: 
Project 2 decoys instead of one.
Both decoys will have 30% less shields.
This also reduces duration by 20%


Rank 5b: Stunning Decoy: 
The decoy fires stun pulses every 5 seconds that deal 10 points of damage (x2 versus shields and barriers) and stun any foe without armour (even if they have shields or barriers).


___________________________________________________________________________


Smoke Screen:

Send out a smoke screen that reduces enemies ability to see and target the infiltrator and their allies. The infiltrator and their squad will have no trouble being able to see through the smoke. Just the enemies.

Enemies within the smoke screen will suffer a damage over time effect.

Rank 1: Unlock

Radius: 2 metres 
Reduction in enemy accuracy: 20%
Reduction in enemy damage output: 20%
Vulnerability: enemies take 20% more damage from all sources.
Movement speed reduction: enemies movement speed reduced by 20%
Damage Over Time: 5 points of damage per second.

Cooldown: 6 seconds
Duration: 6 seconds



Rank 2a: Slow
Slow down enemy movement speed by a further 20%

Rank 2b: Reduce Accuracy
Reduce enemy accuracy by a further 20%

Rank 3a: Reduce Damage Output:
Reduce enemy damage output by a further 20%

Rank 4a: Weapon Synergy
Guns deal an extra 20% damage to foes within the smoke.

Rank 4b: Mine Synergy
Proximity Mine deals an extra 20% damage if detonated within the smoke.

Rank 5a: Radius
Increase radius by 50%

Rank 5b: Damage Over Time
Increase damage over time by 50%


___________________________________________________________________________


Proximity Mine:

Fire this sticky mine into traffic. It will detonate when enemies step into range.

Rank 1: Unlock
Recharge Speed: 10 secondsDamage: 200
Radius: 2 metres


Rank 2a: Enhanced Area
Radius + 50%

Rank 2b: Enhanced Damage
Damage + 50%


Rank 3a: Knock Back 
The blast will knock back any foe without protections
In addition the explosion will deal 20% extra damage versus shields, barriers and armour.

Rank 3b: Corrosive Mine
The mine send out acid that will uniformly deal 10 points of damage per second for 5 seconds to any foe caught in the blast.

Rank 4a: Smoke Screen Synergy:
Proximity Mine deals 20% more damage when detonated within a smoke screen.


Rank 4b: Rapid Mines:
Reduces cooldown by 20%

Rank 5a: Amplified Mine
The mine will take into account the active ammo type.

Ammo types include: incendiary ammo, cryo ammo and warp ammo (which can be borrowed from a squadmate) and distuptor ammo (which the infiltrator has).


Rank 5b: Cluster Mines:
The infiltrator will deploy 5 mines in a general area.
The radius of each mine will be reduced by 50%.
The damage of each mine will be reduced by 50%


___________________________________________________________________________


Disruptor Ammo:
Bring down your enemy's barriers and shields by applying this ammo mod to your weapons.

Any ammo power can be applied to the following:


Certain Powers: Any Power that has a "Amplify" evolution.
Grenades
Regular Guns: Pistols, SMG's, Shotguns, Assault Rifles and Sniper Rifles
Heavy Weapons


Rank 1: Unlock
Health Damage bonus + 5%
Shield and Barrier Damage bonus + 20%


Rank 2a: Enhanced Disruptor Ammo
Increase health damage by 5%
Increase Shield and Barrier damage by 10%

Rank 2b: Squad Disruptor Ammo
Squad gains disruptor ammo at 50% effectiveness.
The squad will benefit from all evolutions 1-5 but at only 50% of the stat bonuses.


Rank 3a: Stun Chance:
Disruptor Ammo has a small chance of stunning any target without armour (even if they have barriers or shields).
The odds of this happening is dependant on the weapon being wielded.

Rank 3b: Sabotage Chance:
Disruptor Ammo has a small chance of making enemy weapons overheat (regardless of whether or not the foe has protections). The odds of this happening is dependant on weapon being wielded.
If the target has no guns, this will merely reduce their melee damage output by 50%.


Rank 4a: Discharge:
Foes affected by disruptor ammo will discharge after 5 seconds. This discharge will send sparks to the nearest enemy deal 10 points of damage and briefly stagging them.

The chances of an enemy discharging depends on the enemy type.


Rank 4b: Stagger:
Shooting at enemies will cause them to stagger.
This will increase weapon recoil by 10%


Rank 5a: Phasic Ammo: 
Disruptor Ammo completely ignores shield gate.
Ammo can pass through light cover (less than 0.5 metres thick). 50% penality to damage when shooting at foes behind light cover.
In addition this gives the infiltrator a 30% headshot damage bonus.

Rank 5b: Counter Shields
Deal 20% extra damage versus shields and barriers.



___________________________________________________________________________

Bonus Power can be unlocked:

___________________________________________________________________________


Stealth Mastery: 

Rank 1: Damage and Durability:

Increases damage output of melee, guns and powers by 20%
Increases health by 20%
Increases shields by 20%

Rank 2a: Vitality
Increases health by 20%
Increases shields by 20%

Rank 2b: Weapons Training
Can carry one extra weapon.
That's 4 weapons in total.Weapons will also deal an additional 20% damage.




Rank 3a: Subtefuge
Increases durations on smoke screen, decoy and tactical cloak by 20%.
Increases decoy shields by 20%.

Rank 3b: Sabotage 
Increases damage output of proximity mine, decoy and smoke screen by 20%

Rank 4a: Specialist
Reduce cooldowns by 20%
Increase movement speed by 20%

Rank 4b: Shadow
+20% melee and weapon damage bonus when cloaked.

Rank 5a: Ranged Assassin
Headshot damage + 30%

Rank 5b: Melee Assassin
Melee damage +30%

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 21 février 2014 - 04:49 .

[Abraham_uk]

So what do you think about my infiltrator?

[capn233]

What is the shieldgate percentage in your version of the game, Abraham? And how does it work? In ME3 powers already ignore shieldgate, and I will get to that in a minute.

Overall I think you moved Cloak in the right direction evolution wise. Does it have the partial cooldown mechanic, or is it a flat cooldown no matter how long it lasts? The other bit, which is related to shieldgate, is the Assassin evolution with increased headshot damage. In the current form of SP with 100% shieldgate, headshot damage usually isn't helpful (at least not on high damage rifles) since it doesn't affect ammo power damage, and ammo damage doesn't get any bonus from headshots. Hence if you ever have enough ammo damage to get around shields, it doesn't matter if it is a head shot or body shot. This is why I abandoned 100% shieldgate when I was doing my mod. If your shieldgate is less than 100%, then headshot evolutions become very useful.

It is interesting that your cloak breaks if you sprint. That isn't a bad idea.

Regarding the Marksman evolution, you would need to be careful about how you design the guns. For instance, the Black Widow actually behaves as a fully automatic. You can hold the trigger and it will fire continuously, abeit at the standard slow rate of fire. If you could get 10 shots in cloak with that gun it would probably instantly be better than any other weapon. Just as an example.

Proxi Mine seems to be the only real direct damage power on the infiltrator now. That seems fairly radical to me. I also don't know that I could give up Damage Taken. I guess this completely separates him from the Engineer if that is what you are going for.

And getting back to shieldgate, how does Disruptor Ammo's Phasic evolution work? In ME3 ammo already ignores shieldgate, but if there are still shields the gun suffers the gate penalty. If it takes all the shields, the gun has no shieldgate to pass. Does this evolution turn off shieldgate for the weapon regardless of how many shields are left after ammo damage application?

I would also wonder if the Rank 3 choices aren't too similar. At the most simplistic level, they are both CC, just in a different manner, and in fact the stunned enemies from the Stun choice won't be firing at you, so it is sort of as if you get weapon overheat for free. One way to differentiate them might be for Stun to only work on enemies who are down to health, but it lasts longer, and for Sabotage to work on protected enemies, but would need to be refreshed more often. This would also mean that Stun is probably better against mooks, and Sabotage would be better against mid-tier and higher enemies (barring any duration penalties on top end units).

Modifié par capn233, 20 février 2014 - 03:21 .

[Soja57]

 @Abraham_uk's Infiltrator redesign

Just a heads up that I always review with a bias towards ME2 and ME3. Cloak is going to get hit the hardest since I consider it a "broken" power in ME3.

Cloak
10 second Cloak cooldown? Which cooldown system are you using, ME3's encumbrance system or ME2's static cooldowns? Assuming ME2's cooldowns, that is quite a long cooldown. Since many things went unstated, I'm assuming it works similar to ME3's Cloak. In that case, cloak still has the issues of its current ME3 form, especially the cooldown bypass when cloak is deactivated, with the only significant change is the potential damage spike.

Rank 2 evolutions look pretty balanced. Rank 3a Recharge Speed: Could be either a poor evolution or a great evolution depending on how Cloak cooldown mechanics work; need more information on this.

Rank 3b Silent Running: Why is this an evolution? Does sprinting break cloak at Rank 1? In that case, this limitation on cloak manueverability heavily leans cloak towards the cloak sniper. While that isn't necessarily bad, the bad part is that this heavily discourages shotgun and melee infiltrator until this evolution is taken.

Rank 4b: Power Synergy. Why does Power Synergy suddenly add a cooldown penalty, when at Rank 1 Cloak, the player can cloak and use a power without the cooldown penalty? Doesn't seem worth the evolution just for 20% power damage and not breaking cloak. This was the issue with ME3 Cloak; bonus power was near useless (only good on N7 Shadow) because the user could cast powers faster by immediately breaking cloak rather than pick bonus power evolution to cast two powers.

Rank 5b: Marksman Cloak. Way too complex of an evolution, not only does the player have to count the number of shots in cloak in order to maximize cloak, it is also very difficult to balance weapons with these specific "shot values". Also, isn't non-automatic and semi-automatic pretty much the same thing? Recoil reduction isn't particularly useful for both shotgun and sniper infiltrators, recoil reduction mainly benefits assault rifle uses, which seems more like a Soldier kind of thing.

Decoy
How does the Decoy behave at Rank 1? Does it spawn in front of the user like in ME3 and stand in place?

Rank 3b Mobile Decoy seems gimmicky. Looks pretty cool to have a decoy that moves around the battlefield and replicates the player's movements, but not really sure on how useful it actually is.

Rank 4 evolutions look solid. Rank 5 evolutions are also pretty good, as it allows for either crowd control spec or damage spec for decoy.

Smoke Screen
How does this power work? Cooldown? Consumable? Honestly, it is difficult to review the power if there isn't any criteria on its limitations of use. Otherwise, seems like a pretty good debuffing power. I'm glad that the power doesn't make the AI turn dumb like ME2's Cloak, which is what many people have suggested for a smoke screen power or grenade.

The evolutions look pretty good, the only one I have an issue with is Mine Synergy. It somewhat imposes a playstyle on players, but this one bit is kind of just nitpicking. Overall a decent power, just need some more information on how it works.

Proximity Mine
Again, assuming ME2 cooldowns, 10 seconds is too long of a cooldown. But Rank 2 looks good and balanced.

Rank 3 Corrosive Mine seems kind of weak in damage output, considering how it is a damage over time effect. Usually, damage over time effects have a comparable or higher damage output compared to instant damage. You could probably bump up the damage to 15 or maybe even 20 and it would still be balanced.

Rank 5 Amplified Mine: No Armor-Piercing? Otherwise, Rank 5 looks good. Cluster Mines would be pretty cool to use.

Disruptor Ammo
Seems kind of early for a squad evolution at Rank 2.

Ranks 3 and 4 somewhat limits on builds. It centers around crowd control, but leaves an empty gap for the people who are looking for pure damage (such as snipers who are looking for that one-shot kill). However, these evolutions are great for shotgun infiltrators and other weapon uses.

Rank 4 Discharge may be a bit overpowered on automatic weapons. This was an issue with ME3 Explosive Incendiary Ammo. Since Discharge grants a flat damage bonus, and has a chance to apply for every shot, the damage can stack extremely high for high rate of fire weapons like geth pulse rifle.

Rank 4 Stagger doesn't really fit Disruptor ammo (seems redundant with stun), and the recoil penalty seems somewhat unnecessary. I'm assuming that the stagger chance depends on the weapon.

Rank 5 Phasic Ammo is pretty awesome, but I think it does a bit too much. Seems kind of redundant with Armor-Piercing Ammo with its light cover piercing, but from the looks of things, it looks like you are removing Armor-Piercing Ammo. I think the headshot bonus should replace Rank 4 Stagger.

Rank 5b Counter shields looks good.

Stealth Mastery
Looks very good. The evolutions are meaningful and balanced. It also supports quite a variety of builds, though Rank 3 is kind of weak in terms of supporting the weapon infiltrator.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Overall your best class, as there are less gimmicky features and more meaningful evolutions. With that said, I would try to provide more information on the Rank 1 of certain powers, but it is good to see that there is only one evolution for Rank 1 to create a strong base power. You've got some good ideas here

Modifié par Soja57, 20 février 2014 - 05:03 .

[Abraham_uk]

Thanks for the feedback.

I am going to edit the first 4 classes before moving onto the Soldier and Vanguard.

[capn233]

10s isn't necessarily too long a base cooldown for Cloak even in an ME2 style system. ME2's was only 6, but it was locked at that with no applicable bonus, wasn't it? In the above system, if the cooldown bonus from passive applies, then you could potentially reduce it to 6s CD.

As for the power use evo, I assumed it didn't allow any power use at base. It definitely says no power use without that evolution now, which I think is one of the best changes to cloak you can make from the ME3 version.

I would say sprint causing decloak is an interesting idea, and it would make duration bonuses more useful. I haven't decided if putting it opposite Recharge is optimal though. If you really wanted to run around as a CQB infiltrator, giving up the 2s CD might be worthwhile, especially given 5b. Depending on what "footstep" mechanics you use though, you could change it such that sprinting in base cloak has longer AI detection and blindfire range than the alternative.

In any event, to give a more definitive analysis, I would need some of the questions from the previous post answered, and would need to know more about the AI, their hp pool, and in game weapon stats. If I was assuming ME3 like enemies and mechanics, with ME3 guns, evolving with all "b" evolutions would still be very powerful if you choose the right gun (Raider or Wraith).

[Soja57]

I still don't know how Abraham_uk handled Cloak's cooldown or the cooldown system. It is somewhat difficult to discuss this topic unless there is more information.

Depending on whether or not the system is dynamic cooldown system or simply a subtractive bonus, Cloak could either have a 7.14 second cooldown or 6 second cooldown. In either case, the cooldown is too long and causes issues of power synergy (one-trick pony or making bonus power evolution on cloak a necessity). Not sure if Cloak can be manually cancelled for a shorter cooldown.

Again, I went into the review with ME3 in mind. Good thing Abraham_uk changed it for clarity. Now that I think about it, I think I am too heavily biased towards ME3, and have to re-analyze my ideas for Cloak and Adrenaline Rush. I probably have to start a new playthrough in ME2 to get a good grasp of the change in mechanics between ME2 and 3.

I still think that the player should be able to sprint during cloak. If sprint caused decloak, it could make duration bonuses more useful, but only because cloak has been somewhat handicapped. It is more difficult to flank enemies if the player can only walk around enemies, and I think giving cloak better flanking ability is better than the damage boost that most players use cloak for.

[Abraham_uk]

Okay there are 4 classes that need some serious editing.
Infiltrator will be the first since it is at least since it is the class with the least issues.
First thing is that this post is going to be out of date when the changes come in.
This is more of an explaining what is going on (because explanation has been so lack lustre in the aformentioned post).

___________________________________________________________________________


Tactical Cloak:

This power may not seem that complicated, but it isn't the easiest power to explain.
There is a flat cooldown of 10 seconds.

If tactical cloak runs out or the player's actions causes them to decloak, that cooldown will remain.



Regarding sprinting. You can still run without sprinting. This is a mechanic you'll find in many shooters. What happens is on gaming consoles your analogue goes slightly forward to walk or move slowly. To run your analogue stick goes fully forward.

For sprinting there is a separate sprint button. On the keyboard there would probably be separate keys representing running and sprinting.

You will be able to move quickly in cloak without deactivating the cloak.


___________________________________________________________________________

Weight of Weapons:

Is no longer a factor.
Don't get me wrong, I love the weight cooldown system, but I have a major issue.
In order to implement it well you need to reduce the number of guns available.

Weapon weight impact on weapon is difficult to get right.
Since I am not designing weapons and going through the lenghy process of comming up with stats I thought it would be best to leave it out.

I have proposed a different system.

Weapon number restrictions. This means that any class can equip any weapon but can only equip so many.
Going from least to most weapons.


Adepts, Engineers and Sentinels can equip only 1 weapon (which can be increased to 2 with weapons training picked in class passive)

Infiltrators and Vanguards can equip only 3 weapons (which can be increased to 4 with weapons training picked in class passive)

Soldiers can equip all 6 weapons [A pistol, smg, shotgun, assault rifle, sniper rifle and heavy weapon].


Don't worry, any class can equip any weapon.

______________________________________________________________________________


Shield Gate 

By the way the shield gate is at 30%

I know Capn 233, Soja 57 and Red Ceasar 97 know how the shield gate mechanic works.
I'm going to explain it anyway just in case you guys think I have something different in mind.


When there is a slither of shields or barriers left  this creates a barrier to dealing any kind of damage to health/armour.

Lets say we shoot a foe that has 10 points of shields left. Now our sniper rifle shot deals 100 points of damage.
That would mean that 10 points of that damage goes towards taking out the shields.

Now because we've penetrated the shields only 70% of the remaining 90 points of damage will actually hurt the enemies health (63 points of damage).

So instead of dealing 100 points of damage, we are dealing 73 points of damage.



Increases in weapon damage though ammo powers will not further aid the guns ability to pass though the shield gate. It will only boost the gun's overall weapon damage. However disruptor ammo has an evolution that flat out removes issue. Meaning the sniper rifle in the example will be able to deal 100 points of damage regardless.

______________________________________________________________________________


Cover Decimation: 

I don't think the soldier has enough to differentiate itself.
Sure it can carry all 6 weapons, but it is essencially a commando class when we have 5 other classes that can be effective commandos.

The soldiers new unique selling point is cover decimation.


All of the environment is destructable. Each wall will have hit points.
Sadly the other 5 classes will be dealing lack lustre damage against these walls since walls have been designed to withstand a lot of punishment. 

Thick cover (more than 0.5 metres thick) will have on average 2000 points of health.
Thin cover (less than 0.5 metres thick) will have on average 1000 points of health.

This is where the soldier comes in.

The soldier's incendiary ammo (now labelled ballistic rounds but still fiery in nature) will be able to deal a lot more damage to over. In addition the concussive shot has been replaced with ballistic blades that have been especially designed to punch holes in cover.

Just a little note. You'll be able to tell how much damage cover has taken, by looking at how ravaged it looks. As it takes more damage the Frosbite Engine will make it look more damaged, until the cover has been decimated. Once decimated enemies and allies alike will be unable to use that cover for protection.



The soldier is very useful addition to any squad, taking care of cover so that enemies have nowhere left to hide.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 20 février 2014 - 10:44 .

[capn233]

Perhaps. That's why I threw in the bit about detection. In ME3 the enemies can "hear" you, and it is more pronounced if you are running. You could accomplish something similar in spirit to 3b if you modified the AI detection to be less sensitive if that is taken. How useful it would be would depend on how good the AI is. In ME2 enemies were pretty dumb when you cloaked, and only fire that was already locked would hit you.

I don't know how the cooldown would work, if I was in charge of mechanics it would be the same CD regardless of when it is canceled, since "attacking" basically gives you the full benefit of cloak, and there is hardly any reason to cancel manually early, except for a shorter CD, which begs the question of why you cloaked in the first place. If you did so to break an enemy lock, then you already got the benefit of the power, so should get the whole CD. This is in contrast to something like Flamer where active time is proportional to the damage.

ME2 did go about things fairly differently, although it is probably a result of change to cooldown mechanics and then combos as much as anything.

I noticed one of your comments earlier was something about Adrenaline Rush without a damage boost, and I am not completely sure how that would be workable unless you turn it into predominantly a defense power, in which case it is more like ME1 Immunity.

I think you can simplify most powers in the ME universe into one of three things (which isn't combat, tech, biotic since those are more superficial): Damage, CC, Protection. Some powers combine these multiple facets, and when they do they are well designed if they aren't the best at those things relative to a different power that only focuses on one.

Adrenaline Rush in ME2 gets some flak because it is one of the better Damage powers, and also offers good protection via Hardening and also Time Dilation (less incoming fire to absorb). Most of the people who think it is grossly overpowered probably used the Mattock, but that is in reality a special case. In the base game it might be one of the best trademark powers, but Soldier doesn't really have any other useful powers in that game and so it works out ok in the end, IMO.

In ME3 they scaled back the damage, the time dilation, and the possible protection. I am not sure what they were thinking. It was as if they wanted to get rid of the ARush playstyle by making it less useful, but on the other hand they reduced CS's cooldown and if that was enough had the Bonus Power evo. Maybe they thought Soldier too powerful with bigger bonuses in ARush because of Explosive Burst stats that are out of balance, or because they never realized that Incendiary Ammo doesn't stack correctly.

If we really want to go down memory lane, we could jump back to ME1, in which case all of the Soldier's damage powers were in the weapon talents. Otherwise you just had protection powers (immunity, shield boost), and passives. Weapon talents went away for power streamlining in ME2, and that is probably a good thing. And since those were gone, they just rolled the damage into the protection and got the single Adrenaline Rush. Concussive Shot was maybe a derivative of Carnage, it is hard to say how it came to be.

What is better? I don't know. I sort of prefer the Soldier with less actual cooldown abilities, since it is the pure combat class, so more like ME2. Which really isn't too far from how ME3MP Human Soldier ends up playing. The alternative would be to go back to separate damage and then protection powers, like if you made a custom class with Marksman and a modern Immunity style power to replace ARush. These would obviously fight for the shared cooldown. If you went to something like a no-cd based DR power like Fortification, you are starting to push balance. You would end up with high damage output via cooldown, but always on DR, which in the end probably makes you more powerful than with a balanced Adrenaline Rush.

edit: I took too long to type this, so I didn't see Abraham's reply before this post.

Modifié par capn233, 20 février 2014 - 10:26 .

[capn233]

Briefly regarding shieldgate, in ME3 a 70% shieldgate means that the gate blocks 70% of the damage. So in the above example, the 90 point shot against a 70% gate would mean only 27 points of damage gets through the gate to damage health.

If you are intentionally designing it differently, I would suggest considering a different number. The gate works better as a balance tool if it is fairly high, but not 100%. This allows the high powered rifles to actually get kills on protected mooks, albeit with headshots (if they are all well designed...).  To be clear, this is my opinion on where the gate should be if it is used as a balance tool, not necessarily an endorsement of the mechanic itself.

For the Phasic Evolution, if you shieldgate is only mitigating 30% of the damage, then I suppose the evolution is ok. If you went to higher damage mitigation for the gate, then this evolution would start to become unbalanced relative to the other one since it already grants several other benefits.

Modifié par capn233, 20 février 2014 - 10:40 .

[RedCaesar97]

It looks like I have a lot of reading to do.
But I have a ME1 game in progress that I would rather play.
I will read later.

[Soja57]

I think it is good if Cloak has a static cooldown. In ME3, players were "punished" when cloaked too long, and encourages players to break cloak immediately. This also encouraged the damage-spec Infiltrator, where Cloak is primarily used as a form of Adrenaline Rush, rather than for the unique cloaking ability.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Adrenaline Rush tests
The purpose of this test was to test the viability of Adrenaline Rush as a pure defensive power (removed weapon damage bonus). I basically removed the weapon damage bonus, and specced for Hardening (now with 30% damage reduction), Duration, and Shield Boost. Base Duration is 5 seconds and cooldown 6 seconds.

Disruptor Ammo was modded with 62.5% shield damage, and 15.625% health damage (somewhat represents a damage-specced Disruptor Ammo + weapon defense multiplier). Combat Mastery modded to have 25% weapon damage bonus, and Carnage (which represents my redesigned Concussive Shot) deals base 135 damage with 4.5 second cooldown, and specced for Damage at Rank 4 for 202.5 damage.

- - - - - 

The Soldier lost a lot of DPS when tested against my Engineer with +45% power damage from passives and Rank 4 Overload damage, Incinerate damage, explosive Drone, and Rank 1 Sabotage. Both classes primarily used the Avenger Assault Rifle, and a Katana Shotgun as a backup weapon. The Engineer was able to drop enemies faster when combining the Avenger AR and damage powers.

I felt that using the Soldier's Carnage was very beneficial due to dealing a moderate amount of damage and staggering enemies to line up those headshots for sniper rifles, shotguns, and assault rifles. Adrenaline Rush felt too situational, I primarily only used it against Cerberus Turrets since they can't be staggered and to reduce damage from turret fire. Because Carnage was able to stagger targets, it also effectively reduced incoming enemy fire.

Adrenaline Rush's time dilation affects the perception of weapon DPS. Since time is slowed down, the rate of fire of the Avenger is also slowed down to scale with the time dilation. This makes its DPS output seem lower than without Adrenaline Rush, even though the effective DPS stays the same, which makes A. rush feel as though it is gimping the player's damage output.

Of course, this issue doesn't really apply to sniper rifles and shotguns, as these weapons primarily deliver a powerful single shot, where DPS is less relevant. Also, time dilation is more helpful for these weapons: sniper rifles to line up the headshots, and shotguns to hit dodging enemies at close range. Assault Rifles however have less trouble with these issues due to the fast rate of fire.

Adrenaline Rush as a defensive power may benefit assault rifles in allowing the player to pull off more shots without having to retreat to cover. However, the same could be said for certain shotguns and sniper rifles as well. Overall, Adrenaline Rush without weapon damage felt like it was biased towards shotguns and sniper rifles, when the Soldier class should be good with all 3 primary weapons.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  -

Simply put, I would prefer Adrenaline Rush to have some weapon damage output rather than rolling in more weapon damage in passives in order to keep the Soldier's DPS comparable to caster classes. It also keeps the balance between the Soldier's powers. Though how much damage Adrenaline Rush gives is questionable. I personally found that 30% at base, with 50% with Heightened was a good balance for me. This is because my redesigned Soldier now has better power synergy than in ME2 and 3.

Modifié par Soja57, 21 février 2014 - 04:07 .

[Soja57]

Just a recap of my Soldier class, with Augmentation switched out for Ammo Pack, which is a heavily modified version of ME3's Thermal Clip Pack in the MP.

Soldier
-Adrenaline Rush - Temporarily heighten your reflexes, allowing you to line up the perfect shot. Can be deactivated at any time, but cooldown remains constant. Unlike in ME3, does not replenish current thermal clip.

-Concussive Shot - Fire a concentrated blast from your weapon that can stagger affected enemies and deal damage proportional to heat generated in current weapon clip (more shots used of current clip yields a higher damage output). Total damage consists of two damage calls; impact damage which is a constant variable, and heat damage which is dependent on current ammo in clip. Heat damage does not apply when a weapon has run out of all "ammo".

-Incendiary Ammo

-Ammo Pack - Utilize a specialized ammo pack to partially restore spare ammo in weapons and refresh the current clip. Also grants a temporary weapon damage and magazine boost. After the duration ends, weapon magazine size returns to normal, returning extra ammo, if applicable, to the spare ammo pool. Uses a limited consumable supply. Works very similarly to ME3's MP Thermal Clip Packs.

-Frag Grenades

- - - - - - - - - - -

How does Ammo Pack sound? If need be, I can post the base stats of the power. But just judging from the description, is there any balance issues that specifically stand out?

Modifié par Soja57, 21 février 2014 - 04:29 .

[Abraham_uk]

Soja57 wrote...
Just a recap of my Soldier class, with Augmentation switched out for Ammo Pack, which is a heavily modified version of ME3's Thermal Clip Pack in the MP.

:crying:Can augmentation be an unlockable bonus power then?
I really loved that power!
Heck if it's a bonus power, then it's available to all classes (in some ways that's even better).

Soja57 wrote...
Soldier
-Adrenaline Rush - Temporarily heighten your reflexes, allowing you to line up the perfect shot. Can be deactivated at any time, but cooldown remains constant. Unlike in ME3, does not replenish current thermal clip.

I like this power a lot. I am glad that you aren't introducing drastic changes to how this power works.
The deactivation is nice.
I never cared much for the thermal clip evolution anyway. In ME 3, I never ran out of ammo (except during Leaving Earth and Mars missions).

Soja57 wrote...
-Concussive Shot - Fire a concentrated blast from your weapon that can stagger affected enemies and deal damage proportional to heat generated in current weapon clip (more shots used of current clip yields a higher damage output). Total damage consists of two damage calls; impact damage which is a constant variable, and heat damage which is dependent on current ammo in clip. Heat damage does not apply when a weapon has run out of all "ammo".

Clever. I like how this weapon power is an actual weapon power that uses up ammo. Good call.

Soja57 wrote...
-Incendiary Ammo

Incendiary Ammo is a good power.

Soja57 wrote...
-Ammo Pack - Utilize a specialized ammo pack to partially restore spare ammo in weapons and refresh the current clip. Also grants a temporary weapon damage and magazine boost. After the duration ends, weapon magazine size returns to normal, returning extra ammo, if applicable, to the spare ammo pool. Uses a limited consumable supply. Works very similarly to ME3's MP Thermal Clip Packs.

How does Ammo Pack sound? If need be, I can post the base stats of the power. But just judging from the description, is there any balance issues that specifically stand out?

Ammo pack. You know what? I have a similar idea for my Soldier.
I call it a Utility Pack. Don't worry though, it will be different.  I look forward to your ideas.

I am not the "is it balanced" kind of guy. Red Ceasar 97 and Capn 233 are much better at that. However I can tell you that I love the concept. In a private message you said that the soldier already has a unique niche (guns blazing). This power works well with that niche.

Soja57 wrote...
-Frag Grenades

They're grenades. They're useful to have in any situation.
I'm glad ME 3 brought them back. In ME 2 they were bonus powers that dealt weak sauce damage. In ME 1 they felt lacking. ME 3 grenades feel like grenades.

So if you're going in the ME 3 direction then I salute you.

Nothing on this list raises a red flag. It's all good stuff.
I look forward to your epic soldier! (There is no excited emoticon other than the party wizard).

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 21 février 2014 - 04:59 .