288 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

duckley wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@Lobsel: About Cullen, if he's a companion or a possible ally I think he'd accept (maybe reluctantly) the fact that the inquisiton is lead by a mage.
About the dalish, I agree, though dwarves and Tal-Vashots would probably be in the same position.

If Hawke was a mage - clearly Cullen respected Hawke so it is not an issue in my opinion 

They never really go into Cullen's thoughts about apostate Hawke being an illegal mage; the same is also true for Sebastian. One of the problems with Dragon Age II, in my opinion. I'm wondering if Cullen will have any issue with a non-Andrastian protagonist, since he does use the label 'heathen' in Origins and Dragon Age II, although he was very shaken up in the former (in reference to Oghren), and the latter concerned the Qunari, who are a serious threat to everyone in the rest of Thedas.

[dragonflight288]

andy69156915 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Merrill: A Sloth Demon, quick, think active thoughts like running, jumping!

What is this from? I've played DA2 many times and have never had this line said.

It's in Feynriel's dream, when approached by Torpor. If Anders/Justice isn't with you, she instantly recognizes him and offers swift advice.

[TheKomandorShepard]

rasloveszev wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...

rasloveszev wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...

rasloveszev wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

Seeing as some Templars rape and molest mages... I wonder how many of those raped mages are children? I mean one who is already willing to use someone else's body for their own pleasure is just a tiny single extra step from deciding they want to go go for someone a bit younger than usual.

Just a food for thought.

Even evil has its standards. 

lol that's a negative.

What you don't believe me? Well, in (American) prisons, pedophiles are given their own special cells. Why? Because the other prisoners would try to murder him/her (usually him). They have little tolerance for hurting children.

wel, yea. but this is thedas.  We're talking about people that hunt, imprison, murder, torture, and rape people just because they are what they are. 

People hunt, imprison, murder, torture, and rape on Earth to. I really don't see your point. In fact Dragon Age is heavily based off of relatity. Like I said, I  really don't see the point your trying to make. The psychology doesn't seem different. People are still appalled when you hurt children and innocent people. 

Thedas isn't real world it is dark fantasy world i don't have to tell you that it is cynical series... i don't think in thedas that would be much problem do this things i mean it is not that orlesian knights do that and peoples praise them or blood mages in tevinter or just templars choping mages in circles or humans killing elves and their childrens no one cares in thedas... deal with that

[rasloveszev]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

rasloveszev wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...

rasloveszev wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...

rasloveszev wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

Seeing as some Templars rape and molest mages... I wonder how many of those raped mages are children? I mean one who is already willing to use someone else's body for their own pleasure is just a tiny single extra step from deciding they want to go go for someone a bit younger than usual.

Just a food for thought.

Even evil has its standards. 

lol that's a negative.

What you don't believe me? Well, in (American) prisons, pedophiles are given their own special cells. Why? Because the other prisoners would try to murder him/her (usually him). They have little tolerance for hurting children.

wel, yea. but this is thedas.  We're talking about people that hunt, imprison, murder, torture, and rape people just because they are what they are. 

People hunt, imprison, murder, torture, and rape on Earth to. I really don't see your point. In fact Dragon Age is heavily based off of relatity. Like I said, I  really don't see the point your trying to make. The psychology doesn't seem different. People are still appalled when you hurt children and innocent people. 

Thedas isn't real world it is dark fantasy world i don't have to tell you that it is cynical series...

Compared to shows and video games I've seen/played, it's really not that dark. And just because it's fantasy doesn't mean it can't be realistic or be simular to reality whatsoever. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

rasloveszev wrote...



Compared to shows and video games I've seen/played, it's really not that dark. And just because it's fantasy doesn't mean it can't be realistic or be simular to reality whatsoever. 

Well comparing to witcher and berserk yes but still it is cynical series.fiction is is written so world and world rules are up to author so ultimately if author will want make this realistic he will write creation with his own outlook on real world(which can be idealistic or cynical and how much).If you want look closer how wrriten is da just look on companions backstory...  if thats not enough for you read on what devs inspire when they created da...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 05 janvier 2014 - 08:23 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Oh... This again? With that extremely mindblwoing amount of certified cases of rape in the Gallows (TWO) I can certainly see why people think that the Gallows is basically jsut a deviant pleasure house for Tempalrs. I mean, if there were a whooping amount of TWO rapes in my hometown then I would suredly also denounce it as the rape capital of the world.... It is only logic...

[Grieving Natashina]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Oh... This again? With that extremely mindblwoing amount of certified cases of rape in the Gallows (TWO) I can certainly see why people think that the Gallows is basically jsut a deviant pleasure house for Tempalrs. I mean, if there were a whooping amount of TWO rapes in my hometown then I would suredly also denounce it as the rape capital of the world.... It is only logic...

It goes beyond just "a couple of rapes."  When was your last playthrough of DA2?  I finished my latest pro-Mage session last week, and my first pro-Templar session three days ago.  It's the same no matter your perspective, from what I've seen.  It's not a couple of isolated instances.

Ser Alrik, from the evidence gathered from NPCs in the Gallows, was a serial rapist and abuser.   It's very creepy.  You can even find a mage that was not Tranquil in the first act that is Tranquil by the second act.  "I am Ser Alrik's now."  

Another Templar (Karras, I think he name is) had a habit of going into younger mages rooms and...doing things with them.  Alain will even tell you as such if you let him live after Act of Mercy.  Many NPCs also talk about how bad the Kirkwall Circle is versus Ferelden and Starkhaven.  Since Meredith has more or less given her Templars full authority, there are some that will take advantage of that.

Note that I said some.  Kirkwall may be one of the worst places for mages in Thedas, however it's not easy for a Templar to keep his/her wits about them in that city.  Just like with the number of mages that turn to Blood Magic, Templars seem even more effected by lyrium withdrawl.

The thin Veil above Kirkwall effects everyone, especially those with ties to magic.  This includes Templars, from what I've observed.  This is coming from a player that's very pro-Mage, though I have my limits.

Kirkwall is a horrible place, for mages, templars and the poor.  Will I say it's the absolute worst place for mages?  No, because we (the players) haven't seen more of Thedas.  Really, we've seen little outside of Ferelden and Kirkwall.  

Modifié par Starsyn, 05 janvier 2014 - 08:54 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

There are TWO certified cases of rape. Alain and ONE of the Tranquil Alrik had raped (disregarding it can hardly be called rape in this case, but it is still sick). You can then argue all you want that there probably were many other Tranquil that Alrik had had his way with, and I might even agree. But I would ask for proof of your claims, and you would have none.

At the end of the day, there is only enough proof for TWO cases of rape in the Gallows.

[Grieving Natashina]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There are TWO certified cases of rape. Alain and ONE of the Tranquil Alrik had raped (disregarding it can hardly be called rape in this case, but it is still sick). You can then argue all you want that there probably were many other Tranquil that Alrik had had his way with, and I might even agree. But I would ask for proof of your claims, and you would have none.

At the end of the day, there is only enough proof for TWO cases of rape in the Gallows.

So, two proven cases of rape is okay?  So, those that talk about being abused and raped are lying?  I wasn't referring to just rape, but also physical abuse.  And even in Ser Alrik's case, it's implied that he's "creepy" and that mages are particularly afraid of him.  

Oh and actually read my post please.  I said while Kirkwall seems to be the worst, we haven't seen much of Thedas yet.  I don't know if it's the #1 place for mage abuse; other Circles could have been a lot worse. I wouldn't call Kirkwall a "rape captial," but the level of abuse and beating can't be denied here.

What about those like Alain, that not only talk about sexual abuse, but also about being locked down day and night, with the Templars beating them at a whim?  Here's from the wiki:

If Hawke subsequently talks to Alain in the Gallows courtyard, he remarks that the Starkhaven Circle was never like this. The templars beat the mages and no one says a thing. They won't let him send mail out, and he found a letter to his parents that they burned in the furnace. Finally, if Karras was spared, Alain states that Karras promised to make him Tranquil if Alain told anyone he has been in Alain's chambers.

So, is that okay because there was only a couple of people that spoke up?  Even Bethany was scared of Alrik, in case you have forgotten.  If you really believe that  systematic abuse of two mages is just "a couple of cases of rape," you're wrong.  This has been implied to go on for a really long time.  Two mages got raped, one of which repeatedly.  So already, the whole "only TWO rapes" thing is out the window.  Mulitple visits to Alain's room = a lot more than two times.

FYI: I've said this repeatedly before, even as a pro-Mage player.  I don't think most Templars in Kirkwall were like that.  I'm betting many were just like Cullen, and wanted to protect the mages from the world as well as the world from mages.  I wouldn't paint all of them with the same brush.  However, even if it was just one (or possible) two Templars doing that, repeatedly taking sexual advantage and abusing a position of authority is more "a rape."   And it's still wrong.

Oh and you never answered my question either: When was the last time you actually played DA2 from start to finish?  

Modifié par Starsyn, 05 janvier 2014 - 09:17 .

[SeekerOfLight]

The primary issue is that for abusers it's about power. Abusers are predaters, they prey on those who are less likely to be believed or fight back, which tend to be very young or marginalized people (prostitutes, mentally ill people etc).

In the DA universe, mages are marginalized by default because of chantry oversight.

My primary concern with the circle system has always been the fact that the mages seem to have no official vehicle to air their grievances. Technically, I could see the senior enchanters and the first enchanter working with the templar leadership to do this, but in practice it doesn't seem to work way, certainly not in Kirkwall.

My point is the fact that a predater like Ser Alrik and the other one (I forgot his name) could behave as they did, even if was by 'flying under the radar', is a failure of leadership on Meredith's behalf.

She as a leader seems to forgotten that as she is not only in charge of the Kirkwall circle, but the templars that are stationed there, and that their behaviour reflects on her suitability to be Knight Commander.

[Grieving Natashina]

helo89 wrote...

The primary issue is that for abusers it's about power. Abusers are predaters, they prey on those who are less likely to be believed or fight back, which tend to be very young or marginalized people (prostitutes, mentally ill people etc).

In the DA universe, mages are marginalized by default because of chantry oversight.

My primary concern with the circle system has always been the fact that the mages seem to have no official vehicle to air their grievances. Technically, I could see the senior enchanters and the first enchanter working with the templar leadership to do this, but in practice it doesn't seem to work way, certainly not in Kirkwall.

My point is the fact that a predater like Ser Alrik and the other one (I forgot his name) could behave as they did, even if was by 'flying under the radar', is a failure of leadership on Meredith's behalf.

She as a leader seems to forgotten that as she is not only in charge of the Kirkwall circle, but the templars that are stationed there, and that their behaviour reflects on her suitability to be Knight Commander.

The other Templar that you're thinking of is Ser Karras.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Karras

From the top of his page: 

“These robes are gonna get their lesson.”

Ser Karras serving in Kirkwall. He is known for his strong anti-Mage views and for abusing his charges.

Modifié par Starsyn, 05 janvier 2014 - 09:20 .

[dragonflight288]

helo89 wrote...

The primary issue is that for abusers it's about power. Abusers are predaters, they prey on those who are less likely to be believed or fight back, which tend to be very young or marginalized people (prostitutes, mentally ill people etc).

In the DA universe, mages are marginalized by default because of chantry oversight.

My primary concern with the circle system has always been the fact that the mages seem to have no official vehicle to air their grievances. Technically, I could see the senior enchanters and the first enchanter working with the templar leadership to do this, but in practice it doesn't seem to work way, certainly not in Kirkwall.

My point is the fact that a predater like Ser Alrik and the other one (I forgot his name) could behave as they did, even if was by 'flying under the radar', is a failure of leadership on Meredith's behalf.

She as a leader seems to forgotten that as she is not only in charge of the Kirkwall circle, but the templars that are stationed there, and that their behaviour reflects on her suitability to be Knight Commander.

Especially since all the evidence against them can be gathered by simply walking around the courtyard, and she lives right there.

[Fredward]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
Because the majority of mages aren't abused. Unless we are to believe that the average Thedosian is significantly more malicious and sociopathic than Earth humans, it comes as no surprise to anyone who doesn't believe that all public school teachers are sexual predators that the mages who experience such unfortunate things are in the minority.

'Cept unjustified indefinite confinment.

Fixed.

Now, now Lotion if I have to have this dance again I'd at least prefer having it with a new partner.


Aaaaand I can't seriously believe people are handwaving rape because it "only" happened "twice." Blegh.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I don't see how beating , torturing or raping mages should be problem for someone outside mages im wrong?

[dragonflight288]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

I don't see how beating , torturing or raping mages should be problem for someone outside mages im wrong?

It's a problem because it exists and shouldn't be there. It's a problem because the perpetrators are not investigated or punished. It's a problem because the whole system that exists to protect the mages from the world and protect the world from mages fails miserably at both.

[Veruin]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Aaaaand I can't seriously believe people are handwaving rape because it "only" happened "twice." Blegh.

The only thing people are handwaving is this idea where two rapes somehow means the whole order is corrupt and if you support the templars, then you support rape.

Modifié par Veruin, 05 janvier 2014 - 09:28 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Who said ANYTHING about rape being okay?.... TWO cases in GRAND TOTAL of certified rape, is NOT a sufficient amount to judge the entirety of the Gallows as some sort of sick deviant pleasure house for Templars, as soooooo many BSN'ers do.

YES rape is a very bad thing and should not be tolerated. NO the Templars cannot do so out of hand and freely. The ones who we know commited such transgression (Alrik and Kerras) went to great lengths to hide their deeds, which shows that they know that they WILL be punished if found out.

Sure, the Templars are much more physical in their handling of the mages, but then again, the mages are also far more rebellious than in other Circle. Cause and effect. This of course leads to the downwards spiral of violence, that I am sure you know about.

Abuse can happen in ANY system. To demand that the Circle system be comletely void of abuse before it can be acceptable is unrealistic and simply unreasonable.

But no no, let us not use empirical proof and reasoning. Let us just side with the poor "oppressed" mages out of hand, just because they seem to be having a hard time....

And the last time I played through DA2 was about one months ago.

[Fredward]

Veruin wrote...
The only thing people are handwaving is this idea where two rapes somehow means the whole order is corrupt and if you support them you support rape.

The whole order is corrupt. Not because they all rape mages but because they serve the Chantry and the Chantry uses the mages like a resource to enrich itself.

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

I don't see how beating , torturing or raping mages should be problem for someone outside mages im wrong?

No, of course it isn't. It's just that most human beings consider such things wrong and morally repugnant and would prefer it if they didn't happen to anyone. I hear it's pretty basic empathy.

[TheKomandorShepard]

dragonflight288 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

I don't see how beating , torturing or raping mages should be problem for someone outside mages im wrong?

It's a problem because it exists and shouldn't be there. It's a problem because the perpetrators are not investigated or punished. It's a problem because the whole system that exists to protect the mages from the world and protect the world from mages fails miserably at both.

It always was , is and will be everywhere and i still fail why non-mages should care about that... sure mages can rebel i don't forbid them that but everyone cares for their own mages in tevinter have similar rule...
And system wasn't create to protect mages only world from mages (well non-mages from mages) other part is just there to look pretty...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

No, of course it isn't. It's just
that most human beings consider such things wrong and morally repugnant
and would prefer it if they didn't happen to anyone. I hear it's pretty
basic empathy.

Ritght... just come back if someone will kick your ass in in the middle of the city and no one will react... peoples just prefer don't know such things and if they see that they will do much just to ignore that... so i don't see problenm 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 05 janvier 2014 - 09:35 .

[AresKeith]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Veruin wrote...
The only thing people are handwaving is this idea where two rapes somehow means the whole order is corrupt and if you support them you support rape.

The whole order is corrupt. Not because they all rape mages but because they serve the Chantry and the Chantry uses the mages like a resource to enrich itself.

[Fredward]

AresKeith wrote...

What? Don't look at me like that. It makes total sense, just think about it. I'd go through my whole spiel again but I haven't recovered from the last time. I'll try and find the thread I discussed it in last.

[SeekerOfLight]

dragonflight288 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

I don't see how beating , torturing or raping mages should be problem for someone outside mages im wrong?

It's a problem because it exists and shouldn't be there. It's a problem because the perpetrators are not investigated or punished. It's a problem because the whole system that exists to protect the mages from the world and protect the world from mages fails miserably at both.

Exactly, the circle system is a failure because first and foremost, most of the temporal governments of Thedas have ceded legal authority of a group their citizens to a transnational religious organization, therefore they (the gov'nts) have no real ability to exercise any oversight over the mages.

[The Elder King]

If the Chantry's purpose on the Circle was to enrich themselves, they'd have tranquilized more mages. Or they wouldn't have started a research to cure Tranquility.

[TheKomandorShepard]

helo89 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

I don't see how beating , torturing or raping mages should be problem for someone outside mages im wrong?

It's a problem because it exists and shouldn't be there. It's a problem because the perpetrators are not investigated or punished. It's a problem because the whole system that exists to protect the mages from the world and protect the world from mages fails miserably at both.

Exactly, the circle system is a failure because first and foremost, most of the temporal governments of Thedas have ceded legal authority of a group their citizens to a transnational religious organization, therefore they (the gov'nts) have no real ability to exercise any oversight over the mages.

Any atempt of controling mages is doomed to failure at start because mages can't be controled thats why circles are failure ignoring templars incompetence,No matter who will hold leash there is no leash that could handle this dog. 

hhh89 wrote...

If the Chantry's purpose on the Circle was
to enrich themselves, they'd have tranquilized more mages. Or they
wouldn't have started a research to cure Tranquility.

As far i renember new divine started research what was quickly kicked out by others in chantry.Well chantry have very screwd up morality like leaving you to death slowly eaten by darkspawn is mercy...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 05 janvier 2014 - 09:42 .

[Grieving Natashina]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Veruin wrote...
The only thing people are handwaving is this idea where two rapes somehow means the whole order is corrupt and if you support them you support rape.

The whole order is corrupt. Not because they all rape mages but because they serve the Chantry and the Chantry uses the mages like a resource to enrich itself.

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

I don't see how beating , torturing or raping mages should be problem for someone outside mages im wrong?

No, of course it isn't. It's just that most human beings consider such things wrong and morally repugnant and would prefer it if they didn't happen to anyone. I hear it's pretty basic empathy.

I agree.  I think that Meredith's lack of proper leadership lead to this abuse.  And yes, I think Kirkwall was a place where a lot abuse was going on.  The worst part for me?  It's all the good Templars that looked the other way. There is no way that some of the other Templars didn't know what was going on.  Rather than report it to say, Cullen, they kept letting this go on.  Many Templars seemed as afraid to speak up as the mages.  Kirkwall itself is a rather poisonous place.  More than the Templars or the mages, I lay the blame solely on the magisters that built the place as a giant blood rune.

Was every mage in the Kirkwall Circle abused?  I'd say no, judging from what I've seen.  However, I also witnessed those less fortunate than Bethany getting abused.  No matter the level of abuse, it was wrong and should not have happened.

Templars are supposed to protect mages, and enough of them failed to do so.  Whether they did the abusing or just stood by, the ones that knew are almost as guilty as the abusers themselves.  

Evil is what happens when good men stand by and do nothing.

I don't agree with Anders' action with blowing up the Chantry.  I have this issue with people harming innocents, and I know that the number of people the PC sees in the Chantry does not reflect the actual number of NPCs that were in there.   Yet I do agree with a dissolving of the Circles, partially because of abuse that can happen behind closed doors.  Mages are being oppressed and treated unfairly.  There was a great thread a couple of weeks ago that talked about reforming the Circles by working together.  I agreed with it 100%.

I've said my piece on this.  I'd rather not get into a protracted debate on the BSN why rape is wrong and those that did it were wrong.