288 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

hhh89 wrote...

If the Chantry's purpose on the Circle was to enrich themselves, they'd have tranquilized more mages. Or they wouldn't have started a research to cure Tranquility.

The research to cure Tranquility was a complete secret, and seems to be Jusitinia's little project as a way to improve relations with the mages.

[Fredward]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

No, of course it isn't. It's just
that most human beings consider such things wrong and morally repugnant
and would prefer it if they didn't happen to anyone. I hear it's pretty
basic empathy.

Ritght... just come back if someone will kick your ass in in the middle of the city and no one will react... peoples just prefer don't know such things and if they see that they will do much just to ignore that... so i don't see problenm 

That's called the bystander effect if you're curious, not everyone is prone to it. And sonny Jim just because you don't do anything or feel like you should doesn't mean other people won't. Your apathy is just as unwarranted and meaningless as the people who care.


Does anyone remember that thread that was about the thing and the thing? It was a big thread 20 pages + I think. Old but not that old. I can't find it. I don't think it started out as an argument about mages but it became about it later on because this is the BSN.

[The Elder King]

dragonflight288 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

If the Chantry's purpose on the Circle was to enrich themselves, they'd have tranquilized more mages. Or they wouldn't have started a research to cure Tranquility.

The research to cure Tranquility was a complete secret, and seems to be Jusitinia's little project as a way to improve relations with the mages.

Indeed, but that mean that the tranquil's contribute to the Chantry's economy isn't that important. Which means that the Circle system wasn't created to enrich the Chantry.
Beside, I don't recall if the Chantry takes profit on the tranquils' works. The only source I can find on the matter said that the tranquils are the main source of the Circle's fundings, and doesn't say anything about the Chantry. But the wikia isn't necessarily reliable.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Starsyn wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Veruin wrote...
The only thing people are handwaving is this idea where two rapes somehow means the whole order is corrupt and if you support them you support rape.

The whole order is corrupt. Not because they all rape mages but because they serve the Chantry and the Chantry uses the mages like a resource to enrich itself.

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

I don't see how beating , torturing or raping mages should be problem for someone outside mages im wrong?

No, of course it isn't. It's just that most human beings consider such things wrong and morally repugnant and would prefer it if they didn't happen to anyone. I hear it's pretty basic empathy.

I agree.  I think that Meredith's lack of proper leadership lead to this abuse.  And yes, I think Kirkwall was a place where a lot abuse was going on.  The worst part for me?  It's all the good Templars that looked the other way. There is no way that some of the other Templars didn't know what was going on.  Rather than report it to say, Cullen, they kept letting this go on.  Many Templars seemed as afraid to speak up as the mages.  Kirkwall itself is a rather poisonous place.  More than the Templars or the mages, I lay the blame solely on the magisters that built the place as a giant blood rune.

Was every mage in the Kirkwall Circle abused?  I'd say no, judging from what I've seen.  However, I also witnessed those less fortunate than Bethany getting abused.  No matter the level of abuse, it was wrong and should not have happened.

Templars are supposed to protect mages, and enough of them failed to do so.  Whether they did the abusing or just stood by, the ones that knew are almost as guilty as the abusers themselves.  

Evil is what happens when good men stand by and do nothing.

I don't agree with Anders' action with blowing up the Chantry.  I have this issue with people harming innocents, and I know that the number of people the PC sees in the Chantry does not reflect the actual number of NPCs that were in there.   Yet I do agree with a dissolving of the Circles, partially because of abuse that can happen behind closed doors.  Mages are being oppressed and treated unfairly.  There was a great thread a couple of weeks ago that talked about reforming the Circles by working together.  I agreed with it 100%.

I've said my piece on this.  I'd rather not get into a protracted debate on the BSN why rape is wrong and those that did it were wrong.  

evil or good exist only in your own morality. 

"Templars are supposed to protect mages"
naive and there is nowhere said they have to...
peoples will abuse other peoples deal with that
Peoples will choose what is convenient and profitable not what is morally right most just can't handle that so thats why peoples came up with "necessary evil" or "i did what i had to do" ...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

No, of course it isn't. It's just
that most human beings consider such things wrong and morally repugnant
and would prefer it if they didn't happen to anyone. I hear it's pretty
basic empathy.

Ritght...
just come back if someone will kick your ass in in the middle of the
city and no one will react... peoples just prefer don't know such things
and if they see that they will do much just to ignore that... so i
don't see problenm 

That's called the bystander effect if you're curious, not everyone is prone to it. And sonny Jim just because you don't
do anything or feel like you should doesn't mean other people won't.
Your apathy is just as unwarranted and meaningless as the people who
care.


Does anyone remember that thread that was about the
thing and the thing? It was a big thread 20 pages + I think. Old but not
that old. I can't find it. I don't think it started out as an argument about mages but it became about it later on because this is the BSN.

Peoples always talk about morals or about being hero when they don't have to choose as i said peoples don't care they prefer don't know if they know they will want forget or justify that i explained above. 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 05 janvier 2014 - 09:50 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

AresKeith wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Veruin wrote...
The only thing people are handwaving is this idea where two rapes somehow means the whole order is corrupt and if you support them you support rape.

The whole order is corrupt. Not because they all rape mages but because they serve the Chantry and the Chantry uses the mages like a resource to enrich itself.

Come now AresKeith you know fully well that profitizing off of ANYTHING is the epitome of evil. Damn entrepreneurs!

[Adanu]

Side with the mages during the rebellion with Bethany there. She comes to think the Circle is a mistake.

[Grieving Natashina]

@ Sheperd.

What?  So abuse and rape is only subjectively evil?  I don't see the good that can come from that. 

"Templars are supposed to protect mages"
naive and there is nowhere said they have to...

Wrong!   So very very wrong.  It's a part of their vows as Templars. From the Dragon Age wiki about Templars:

Templars are sworn to protect the world from the dangers of magic, but they also protect mages from the outside world, a world that fears these magic users for very good reasons. It is the templars' place to watch their charges for signs of weakness or corruption and, should they find it, to act without hesitation for the good of all.

In short, a Templar that abuses his charges has broken his vows.  They do have to protect the mages, according to their own freaking Order.

Here's a link so you can read it yourself.

http://dragonage.wik...i/Templar_Order

peoples will abuse other peoples deal with that

It. Doesn't. Make. It. Right.  So, if someone abused your best friend or family member, you should just "deal with it?"  If it's a stranger, does that make it any better to look away?  NO.  The only way abuse stops is if someone speaks up.

Peoples will choose what is convenient and profitable not what is morally right most just can't handle that so thats why peoples came up with "necessary evil" or "i did what i had to do" ...

So, again, why is that relevant?  Why was it a "necessary evil" to beat mages?  Or for Alrik to constantly abuse Alain?  I don't get how that has any meaning here.

Rape and abuse is wrong.  Period. 

 I'm out of this thread.  Knock yourselves out.

Edit: Formatting issue.

Modifié par Starsyn, 05 janvier 2014 - 10:05 .

[Heimdall]

To answer the OP, it was always my impression that the abuse wasn't as widespread in the circle as some people think. Certainly there were a number of corrupt Templars abusing a number of mages, but I don't believe every Mage was systematically subjected to this abuse, perhaps not even most.

[SeekerOfLight]

Quick question. How does the chantry's authority stack up to the Grey Wardens rite of conscription?

Because all this Anders talk reminded me of the first time we met him and the whole Rylock affair that came after.

After the PC conscripted him, and the monarch says "...I'll allow it..." and you do his personal quest. Rylock says "The Chantry supercedes the crown in this matter".

Ok. Does this mean that the chantry thinks it can overrule the rite of conscription or am I reading too much into this?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Starsyn wrote...

chop

Well then lets explain me why rape or killing is wrong and for who for rapist it isn't wrong for victim it is for third person (that may be or not ) it is up to your morality.Yes probably many guardians of morality will show up to tell me how terrible person im and call me rapist...

And it is very naive to belive is organization tells you that care about you that mean organisation will do that they don't have to until someone will force them to do that.

As i said what makes that right or not exists only in your head if someone abuse me it is my problem not someone else and peoples act that way...

I never said that locking mages or anything where that excuse is used us "right" it is only justification to do that what is convenient...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 05 janvier 2014 - 10:06 .

[Fredward]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Come now AresKeith you know fully well that profitizing off of ANYTHING is the epitome of evil. Damn entrepreneurs!

Tut, tut. I'd say I expected better but I didn't. The Chantry isn't corrupt because it profits off of mage slavery, it's corrupt because that isn't it's purported purpose. What the Chantry is supposed to do, what it says it does, is protect the mundanes from the mages and the mages from the mundanes. And the mages from themselves. It's a noble self sacrifice, yah see? Tough job but someone's got to do it. Except that's not what happens. Through mages the Chantry gets military and economic gain, through economic and military power it gains political influence. Now you can say this is all a happy side-effect of a necessary system, it's nice but it's not why the Chantry does what it does, they keep mages locked up because it HAS to be done. Except the worst of thing of this whole setup is that it's not working. As the war so aptly shows, if nothing else. Almost every single mage we've seen that's gone mad or turned into an abomination or whatevethe**** has done so in direct response to the Circle system. The current setup isn't fixing or containing the problem, it's creating a self-sustaining system that the Chantry suckles off like some fat, slimy slug-maggot creature thing.

And oh my gawd I'm getting dragged into this damnable argument again. I must FLEE! FLEE I SAY.

[The Elder King]

@helo89: technically, it shouldn't. The Grand mother was pissed when Duncan recruited Alistair, but she couldn't do anything legally to stop it.