288 réponses à ce sujet

[DarthSliver]

Maybe ill try to replay through DA2 soon, I need to replay it so I get all the ingredients trophy. I only missed it last time because I wasnt playing nice with Isabella, well I wasnt mean either lol

[Orian Tabris]

eluvianix wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Because it would have encouraged some people to side against the templars if Bethany was abused. There's not an actual reason to explain it story-wise; the entire reason Alain sided with Thrask was to topple the oppressive system that was permitting this kind of abuse unchecked, since he was a rape victim.

Who was a rape victim now?

Alain was. If Ser Karras lives after Act of Mercy, Alain tells you that Karras visits him in his quarters at night.

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

Karras was ugly enough as is! Now he also rapes male mages?! I'm glad that bastard always died in my games.... Wait! Did my goody-goody Hawke kill him?! Oh god!

[In Exile]

eluvianix wrote...
Hang on. Cullen never agreed with Alrik's ideas. Heck, even Meredith said no to the Tranquil solution.

Cullen thought it was going to far... right now. But to him it was a good solution, and he said he doesn't get why the mages whine so much about it since they're not being executed instead. 

[The Elder King]

@In Exile: Sorry, how can those Cullen's comments (which I recall. i thought you meant specific comments about Bethany) heavy imply that Bethany was abused? The fact that Cullen has extremistic views doesn't mean he raped and abused mages.
I'd say it's irrealistic to believe that every mages were abused. First, if it was Orsino would've mentioned it. Second, Alrik and Karras were hiding their abuses, or threatening mages to not say anything. That would mean that they know they'd be punished if the truth was revealed. So abuses were against the order.
Third, if every mages were abused, they'd be completely moronic to not rebel.

[Orian Tabris]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

rasloveszev wrote...
The papers she wrote make it seemed like she loved it there. 

~ahem~

Dear Hawke,
I hope this letter finds you well. My time in the Circle has been bearable, even after the templars made a point of putting me through the Harrowing as soon as I arrived. They thought I was at risk of possession or running away like Father. Glad it's over with.

I've started mentoring apprentices. I enjoy time with the children, teaching them basic spells. One of them, Ella, has taken a shine to me. Adorable!

Life's not perfect here, mind you. The templars are mostly polite, and I know they're just doing their jobs, but some hold extreme views. There's one creep named Ser Alrik who likes harassing mages, but I'll steer clear of him!

I'm doing fine! Please don't worry about me.
With love,

Bethany

What.

Yeah, she could not have loved it there. Actually, now that I think about it, when I first read that in the game, my initial reaction, was that she wasn't having the time of her life, but the Circle was OK.

OP, there must be something wrong with you, if you thought she loved it there.

[In Exile]

Rassler wrote...

You are right about cullen. Also another matter is most amusing. Three Mages of Starkhaven (Grace and others) were made tranquil chosen randomly. So this means the mastermind behind the escape and wife of a blood mage who becomes possessed later in the game remains unpunished. Also there were no proof of them being blood mage and they passed their harrowing and shouldn't have been made tranquil especially not chosen randomly for it. You can hear these comments when you speak with Alian and Grace after Grace and the others have been caught if you help them escape (in act 2) 

Is that if you turn them in? Because Meredith executes 3 random ones if they are caught later if you help them escape. 

[Hellion Rex]

In Exile wrote...

Rassler wrote...

You are right about cullen. Also another matter is most amusing. Three Mages of Starkhaven (Grace and others) were made tranquil chosen randomly. So this means the mastermind behind the escape and wife of a blood mage who becomes possessed later in the game remains unpunished. Also there were no proof of them being blood mage and they passed their harrowing and shouldn't have been made tranquil especially not chosen randomly for it. You can hear these comments when you speak with Alian and Grace after Grace and the others have been caught if you help them escape (in act 2) 

Is that if you turn them in? Because Meredith executes 3 random ones if they are caught later if you help them escape. 

Yeah, what happens to the 3 mages changes based on your actions at the end of the quest. Either made Tranquil or executed.

[The Elder King]

Yes, the fate of the Starkhaven mages is different based on what you did in Act of Mercy.

[Mr.House]

Bethany enjoys living in the circle more then becoming a grey warden. Anyways Cullen and her connection to Hawke are probably the two big reasons why templars like Alrik didn't even try to do anything.

Modifié par Mr.House, 04 janvier 2014 - 09:57 .

[In Exile]

hhh89 wrote...

@In Exile: Sorry, how can those Cullen's comments (which I recall. i thought you meant specific comments about Bethany) heavy imply that Bethany was abused? The fact that Cullen has extremistic views doesn't mean he raped and abused mages.

I didn't say that. I said that those are the only comments I recall Cullen making, and that I'll search for his actual lines regarding Bethany's treatment. What those comments do show, however, is what the enviroment at the Circle is like, and there's lots of IRL research that shows that there is systemic and rampant abuse in prison-like environments where guards share those beliefs. 

First, if it was Orsino would've mentioned it.

Orisono does mention it. Like the forcible confinement. 

Second, Alrik and Karras were hiding their abuses, or threatening mages to not say anything. That would mean that they know they'd be punished if the truth was revealed. So abuses were against the order.

They were forcing tranquility on Harrowed mages, in Alrik's case. That doesn't happen without serious collaboration. 

Third, if every mages were abused, they'd be completely moronic to not rebel.

You need to open a history book. 

[Iakus]

Orian Tabris wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

rasloveszev wrote...
The papers she wrote make it seemed like she loved it there. 

~ahem~

Dear Hawke,
I hope this letter finds you well. My time in the Circle has been bearable, even after the templars made a point of putting me through the Harrowing as soon as I arrived. They thought I was at risk of possession or running away like Father. Glad it's over with.

I've started mentoring apprentices. I enjoy time with the children, teaching them basic spells. One of them, Ella, has taken a shine to me. Adorable!

Life's not perfect here, mind you. The templars are mostly polite, and I know they're just doing their jobs, but some hold extreme views. There's one creep named Ser Alrik who likes harassing mages, but I'll steer clear of him!

I'm doing fine! Please don't worry about me.
With love,

Bethany

What.

Yeah, she could not have loved it there. Actually, now that I think about it, when I first read that in the game, my initial reaction, was that she wasn't having the time of her life, but the Circle was OK.

OP, there must be something wrong with you, if you thought she loved it there.

Bethany's codex entry if she joins the Circle:

Bethany communicates often with her family since entering the Circle, and she is adjusting to her new life with ease.  For the first time, she can study magic without watching over her shoulder.  After passing her much-delayed Harrowing, she took a senior position within the Circle, teaching and mentoring the newest apprentices.  Bethany is surprised at how many templars are honest Andrastians, who believe they serve the Maker and the people by keeping mages from using blood magic.  However, this up-close look at the templars has also shown her the abuses that inevitably occur when one group of people is given life-and-death power over another. Bethany supports the Circle as it is, but this grows harder as Knight-Commander Meredith clamps down more tightly.

Emphasis mine

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I'll search for them. All I can recall now is his general attitude - I only recently replayed Act III with a mage Hawke and Cullen talks about how the Chantry has "dominion" over mages by divine right. There are also his comments about the Tranquil solution being a good idea. 

Hang on. Cullen never agreed with Alrik's ideas. Heck, even Meredith said no to the Tranquil solution.

Cullen wasn't altogether opposed to Alrik's ideas, either.  What you hear from him is an indirect not-answering-the-question "there's an argument to be made for a wider application."

[Lulupab]

Also depending on your actions a mage Hawke can become exactly like Anders and don't think Hawke will act rational. Hawke says this to Anders when Anders tells him about Templar abuses. Imagine if Mage Hawke had bethany instead of carver as sibling and his sister was abused in circle. Hawke would destroy all building that had templars in them

[The Elder King]

@In Exile: I don't. The fact that in our world groups of people haven't rebelled when completely abused doesn't mean that it should happen in DA. Beside, it's not the same thing. Mages know the they hav rights and should've better conditions in the Circle. They aren't trained in believing that they should be abused. I have no problem in believing that the majority of the sareebas don't rebel, for example.
What are you referring to 'forcible confinement'? Did he said that all mages are forced in confinement?
As for Alrik, I know he had support. The quests shown that, since he was with othe templars. That doesn't change the fact that Meredith rejected the idea so she would've been against what Alrik was doing.
I'm not saying that some/a lot of templars were corrupted. Meredith (and Cullen) ideas probably made her more easily fooled (until Act 3). The system in Kirkwall was bad. But that doesn't mean that every templar was corrupted or that every mages were abused.

[Orian Tabris]

Mr.House wrote...

Bethany enjoys living in the circle more then becoming a grey warden. Anyways Cullen and her Connection to Hawke are probably the two big reasons why templars like Alrik didn't even try to do anything.

Indeed.

In Act 3 Meredith tells Anders that his connection to Hawke is what protects him. She refers to Hawke as "The Champion," but still. If it weren't for Hawke, Anders would have been captured by Act 2, since his home is well known to the rest of Kirkwall (minus probably nobles living it up in Hightown).

Hawke's asociation with (Guard Captain) Aveline and his success in the Deep Roads expedition, cemented his/her power in Kirkwall. Anyone who is friends with Hawke is pretty much safe. Merrill would have been caught too. She gets lost around Kirkwall all the time, and once found herself in the viscount's garden.

Meredith knew about every one of Hawke's companions, yet did nothing since Hawke became very powerful since moving to Hightown. I think Meredith was afraid of what would happen to her rule if she went up against Hawke since - quoting Orana - "Many people know of you."

[Hellion Rex]

Orian Tabris wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Bethany enjoys living in the circle more then becoming a grey warden. Anyways Cullen and her Connection to Hawke are probably the two big reasons why templars like Alrik didn't even try to do anything.

Indeed.

In Act 3 Meredith tells Anders that his connection to Hawke is what protects him. She refers to Hawke as "The Champion," but still. If it weren't for Hawke, Anders would have been captured by Act 2, since his home is well known to the rest of Kirkwall (minus probably nobles living it up in Hightown).

Hawke's asociation with (Guard Captain) Aveline and his success in the Deep Roads expedition, cemented his/her power in Kirkwall. Anyone who is friends with Hawke is pretty much safe. Merrill would have been caught too. She gets lost around Kirkwall all the time, and once found herself in the viscount's garden.

Meredith knew about every one of Hawke's companions, yet did nothing since Hawke became very powerful since moving to Hightown. I think Meredith was afraid of what would happen to her rule if she went up against Hawke since - quoting Orana - "Many people know of you."

On the Merrill thing though, Varric paid off the gardeners so they wouldn't do anything about Merrill. Varric always watched out for her, although I am sure being Hawke's companion also helped.

[LobselVith8]

Rassler wrote...

Also depending on your actions a mage Hawke can become exactly like Anders and don't think Hawke will act rational. Hawke says this to Anders when Anders tells him about Templar abuses. Imagine if Mage Hawke had bethany instead of carver as sibling and his sister was abused in circle. Hawke would destroy all building that had templars in them

Hawke can also tell him (to paraphrase) they will kill all the templars (in Act II, after killing Alrik).

[sandalisthemaker]

Rassler wrote...

Also depending on your actions a mage Hawke can become exactly like Anders and don't think Hawke will act rational. Hawke says this to Anders when Anders tells him about Templar abuses. Imagine if Mage Hawke had bethany instead of carver as sibling and his sister was abused in circle. Hawke would destroy all building that had templars in them

LMAO AT THAT STAFF.  

[Wulfram]

Bethany is strong willed in her way, has the independence of being raised free of the circle, and has a good reputation with the tower leadership. She's a poor choice of target. If an abusive Templar is looking for a victim, they'd go for someone who they're confident won't tell tales, and who wouldn't be believed if they did. Someone who has done something wrong that they can hold over their head and can be credibly tranquilled if necessary.  Preferably someone who doesn't have any powerful family contacts outside who can kick up a fuss.

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 janvier 2014 - 10:17 .

[rasloveszev]

Orian Tabris wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

rasloveszev wrote...
The papers she wrote make it seemed like she loved it there. 

~ahem~

Dear Hawke,
I hope this letter finds you well. My time in the Circle has been bearable, even after the templars made a point of putting me through the Harrowing as soon as I arrived. They thought I was at risk of possession or running away like Father. Glad it's over with.

I've started mentoring apprentices. I enjoy time with the children, teaching them basic spells. One of them, Ella, has taken a shine to me. Adorable!

Life's not perfect here, mind you. The templars are mostly polite, and I know they're just doing their jobs, but some hold extreme views. There's one creep named Ser Alrik who likes harassing mages, but I'll steer clear of him!

I'm doing fine! Please don't worry about me.
With love,

Bethany

What.

Yeah, she could not have loved it there. Actually, now that I think about it, when I first read that in the game, my initial reaction, was that she wasn't having the time of her life, but the Circle was OK.

OP, there must be something wrong with you, if you thought she loved it there.

The reason I thought she loved it there  is because I expected nothing less than "it's a living hell".

[In Exile]

hhh89 wrote...

@In Exile: I don't. The fact that in our world groups of people haven't rebelled when completely abused doesn't mean that it should happen in DA.  

The psychology of abuse isn't magically different between this setting and IRL. These systemic power differences create an atmosphere of powerlessness. It's why tyranies and dictatorships survive as long as they do. If you blame the mages as 'idiots' for not rebelling, then you have to hold the same view of the hundreds of thousands of people that suffered under communist. 
 

Mages know the they hav rights and should've better conditions in the Circle. They aren't trained in believing that they should be abused. I have no problem in believing that the majority of the sareebas don't rebel, for example.

Mages are told that the Chantry has dominion over them by divine right. It's not about being trained to believe they should be abused: it's about fearing that they'd get killed (or worse) if they stood up and tried to organize. It's a fear that everything they do is watched and that they'd be executed just for trying to start up a conspiracy. 

What are you referring to 'forcible confinement'? Did he said that all mages are forced in confinement?

Yes. That was in Act III. 

As for Alrik, I know he had support. The quests shown that, since he was with othe templars. That doesn't change the fact that Meredith rejected the idea so she would've been against what Alrik was doing.

No. That shows that Meredith didn't want to turn all the mages into templars. It doesn't tell us that she didn't approve of the smaller scale abuse that he was perpetrating before that.

I'm not saying that some/a lot of templars were corrupted. Meredith (and Cullen) ideas probably made her more easily fooled (until Act 3). The system in Kirkwall was bad. But that doesn't mean that every templar was corrupted or that every mages were abused. 

Neither does it say that they weren't. All we have is a lot of evidence of abuse with every single Circle mage we meet that speaks to us except for Bethany. 

[SgtSteel91]

eluvianix wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
It's heavily implied......where, exactly?

Other than the wishy- the tone of her letter, through the consistency of abuse we see mages subjected to and the very scant commnents you have from Cullen on Bethany. 

Not every mages was abused in Kirkwall. For Cullen's comments, I have to find them (or you can told me), since I don't recall them. I've made the Circle-Bethany choice only once, since I roleplay my warrior/rogue Hawke in a way that they would never let Bethany remain alone in Kirkwall during Act 1.

Yup. Kirkwall was probably the worst of the Circles, but even then, not all mages were abused within the Gallows walls. And I never let my brother/sister anywhere near the Gallows. Always put them into the Grey Wardens.

I roleplay Hawke as not sure he could protect Bethany from Darkspawn after what happened to Carver and wanted Bethany to stay with their mother if anything happened to him during the expedition.

[Master Warder Z_]

rasloveszev wrote...

I'm very shocked about how things worked out in Act 2. Bethany seemed to love the Circle!....despite the fact that the Kirkwall Circle is known for their sadistic ruther Templars and a certain one that's raping the mages. How does Bethany seem to avoid all of that going on?

My only guess is that she was guarded by the non-corupted Templars (and Cullen maybe).

Notice that most of those rumors come from either Anders or those within the same camp as him.

I really wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the stories of how horrible that circle really was merely pro mage propaganda.

[Master Warder Z_]

In Exile wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@In Exile: I don't. The fact that in our world groups of people haven't rebelled when completely abused doesn't mean that it should happen in DA.  

The psychology of abuse isn't magically different between this setting and IRL. These systemic power differences create an atmosphere of powerlessness. It's why tyranies and dictatorships survive as long as they do. If you blame the mages as 'idiots' for not rebelling, then you have to hold the same view of the hundreds of thousands of people that suffered under communist. 
 

Mages know the they hav rights and should've better conditions in the Circle. They aren't trained in believing that they should be abused. I have no problem in believing that the majority of the sareebas don't rebel, for example.

Mages are told that the Chantry has dominion over them by divine right. It's not about being trained to believe they should be abused: it's about fearing that they'd get killed (or worse) if they stood up and tried to organize. It's a fear that everything they do is watched and that they'd be executed just for trying to start up a conspiracy. 

What are you referring to 'forcible confinement'? Did he said that all mages are forced in confinement?

Yes. That was in Act III. 

As for Alrik, I know he had support. The quests shown that, since he was with othe templars. That doesn't change the fact that Meredith rejected the idea so she would've been against what Alrik was doing.

No. That shows that Meredith didn't want to turn all the mages into templars. It doesn't tell us that she didn't approve of the smaller scale abuse that he was perpetrating before that.

I'm not saying that some/a lot of templars were corrupted. Meredith (and Cullen) ideas probably made her more easily fooled (until Act 3). The system in Kirkwall was bad. But that doesn't mean that every templar was corrupted or that every mages were abused. 

Neither does it say that they weren't. All we have is a lot of evidence of abuse with every single Circle mage we meet that speaks to us except for Bethany. 

Notice almost every single mage we speak to has either escaped the circle and thus is on the run, is practicing forbidden magic and making pacts with demons or otherwise breaking chantry and circle law. I mean even Allain ends up using blood magic thus proving that even those we suspect of being innocent have resorted to learning the forbidden.

Not exactly the most compelling agruments for the circle being LESS strict no? When they are doing it regardless of measures to prevent it, thus the grip must be tightened.

Furthermore the Mages are only forced into confiment after Thrask little love circle is uncovered which to be honest? That's a fairly mild reaction in my book, It makes sense as well for both templar and mages to go under even closer supervision and screening after you have a templar turning his back completely on his duties and allowing the forbidden to happen in his very midst with out even a comment.

So in my eye? Kirkwall was an extreme situation because extreme methods were required, not because it was "abusive" there were a few bad templars certainly and that didn't aid the situation but there were more then a few bad mages within that city and that was what led to almost every trouble it faced besides the Qunari.

[SgtSteel91]

Master Warder Z wrote...

I mean even Allain ends up using blood magic thus proving that even those we suspect of being innocent have resorted to learning the forbidden.

But wasn't Blood Magic needed to remove that ward thing that was trapping your sibling/LI/friend?