288 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

I mean even Allain ends up using blood magic thus proving that even those we suspect of being innocent have resorted to learning the forbidden.

But wasn't Blood Magic needed to remove that ward thing that was trapping your sibling/LI/friend?

Was it's usage justified in this instance? Possibly but that is beside the point.

He still had to learn it, either by reading corruptive tomes that were penned by those who made pacts with Demons or Looking a demon in the eye to learn the ability himself. Eitherway that kid is hardly as clean as the driven snow.

The sad thing is? Only in DA do i actually frown upon Blood Magic, Where it exists elsewhere i generally have no opinion or support the usage of it. DA is diffrent Mainly due to its corruptive influences and source, But that said its more beign area's such as scying or in usage of Philacteries is acceptable.

[TK514]

Bethany wasn't abused because she wasn't their 'type'. Karras and Alrik both showed they preferred their victims spineless and/or defenseless. Bethany was neither. She also wasn't male, which seems to have been Karras' preference, given the only victim we know of. Lastly, she was extremely high profile. It would be rare for a full grown apostate to willingly go with Templars to a Circle, and then excel, which she did. That gave her all the protection she needed. The fact that every time we see her after going to the Circle, she's in the company of the First Enchanter probably doesn't hurt, either.

Bethany is as close to untouchable as it gets without being named "Orsino".

[The Elder King]

@In Exile: No, the mages aren't told that templars have dominion mages by divine right. That's what one templar said. We don't know anything about how mages are thaught. The Chant itself could be interpreted in different ways, as Anders shown. After all, there are plently of Libertarians and Aequitarians in the Circles, and they're not (necessarily in the case of Aeauitarians) pro-Chantry. The worsening of the conditions in the White spire and Lambert's threats didn't stop mages from rebelling. Though I agree that my post about them begin moronic for not rebelling was wrong.
I don't think that Meredith would've approved Alrik's actions , but there's no way for knowing it.
I believe that Bethany wasn't abused, and that would mean that not every mages was abused. I don't think that either our opinion could be proved. We have to agree to disagree.
@Master Warder Z: I highly doubt that it was just mage propaganda. The Kirkwall Circle was a mess, and it shown pretty clear the worst side of the templars (though DA2 shown the worst side of mages too).

[Afro_Explosion]

Master Warder Z wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

I mean even Allain ends up using blood magic thus proving that even those we suspect of being innocent have resorted to learning the forbidden.

But wasn't Blood Magic needed to remove that ward thing that was trapping your sibling/LI/friend?

Was it's usage justified in this instance? Possibly but that is beside the point.

He still had to learn it, either by reading corruptive tomes that were penned by those who made pacts with Demons or Looking a demon in the eye to learn the ability himself. Eitherway that kid is hardly as clean as the driven snow.

The sad thing is? Only in DA do i actually frown upon Blood Magic, Where it exists elsewhere i generally have no opinion or support the usage of it. DA is diffrent Mainly due to its corruptive influences and source, But that said its more beign area's such as scying or in usage of Philacteries is acceptable.

Alain didn't have to read forbidden tomes or make deals with demons henis traveling with blood mages they can teach him.

Modifié par mx_keep13, 04 janvier 2014 - 10:42 .

[LobselVith8]

mx_keep13 wrote...

Alain didn't have to read forbidden tomes or make deals with demons henis traveling with blood mages they can teach him. 

True. Considering that Alain is getting raped by templars whether Kerras is alive or dead, I'm not certain why anyone would vilify him for using blood magic with no malevolent intent (since it's not an inherently evil school of magic), especially given that he's working with a templar to overthrow an oppressive regime.

[Master Warder Z_]

mx_keep13 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

I mean even Allain ends up using blood magic thus proving that even those we suspect of being innocent have resorted to learning the forbidden.

But wasn't Blood Magic needed to remove that ward thing that was trapping your sibling/LI/friend?

Was it's usage justified in this instance? Possibly but that is beside the point.

He still had to learn it, either by reading corruptive tomes that were penned by those who made pacts with Demons or Looking a demon in the eye to learn the ability himself. Eitherway that kid is hardly as clean as the driven snow.

The sad thing is? Only in DA do i actually frown upon Blood Magic, Where it exists elsewhere i generally have no opinion or support the usage of it. DA is diffrent Mainly due to its corruptive influences and source, But that said its more beign area's such as scying or in usage of Philacteries is acceptable.

Alain didn't have to read forbidden tomes or make deals with demons henis traveling with blood mages they can teach him.

It doesn't excuse picking up the craft, even if it is a trick he learned from some one Hawke beheaded.

I really don't see much defense here; So he learned it, Used it with out hestitation and we are susposed to expect him never to do so again when the mood strikes?

Blood Mages deserve only a single thing from the circle and templars and that is Death.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

Alain didn't have to read forbidden tomes or make deals with demons henis traveling with blood mages they can teach him. 

True. Considering that Alain is getting raped by templars whether Kerras is alive or dead, I'm not certain why anyone would vilify him for using blood magic with no malevolent intent (since it's not an inherently evil school of magic), especially given that he's working with a templar to overthrow an oppressive regime.

In the one instance shown there was no Malevolent intent and considering his entire posse just got obliterated inside fifteen seconds by the champion...There wouldn't be would there?

Doesn't mean he doesn't need to die for knowing it though.

And it is pretty much an inherently evil school of magic.

[whogotsalami]

Veruin wrote...

rasloveszev wrote...

Then why would they allow her to write about Ser Alrik and how extreme the templars are? I would think if they would want people to believe little angels.

Then either they don't check the letters or they aren't as corrupt/bad as you think they are.

Either way it's inconsistent writing imo

[Aolbain]

Maybe she wasn't? There was a lot of mages in Kirkwall and the psychos can't get to everyone.

[Grieving Natashina]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

rasloveszev wrote...

I'm very shocked about how things worked out in Act 2. Bethany seemed to love the Circle!....despite the fact that the Kirkwall Circle is known for their sadistic ruther Templars and a certain one that's raping the mages. How does Bethany seem to avoid all of that going on?

My only guess is that she was guarded by the non-corupted Templars (and Cullen maybe).

The answer is simple - the abuse isn't as spread as many pro-mages want to belive.


To quote Bethany:
"The templars are mostly polite, and I know they're just doing their jobs, but some hold extreme views."

I'm pro-Mage and I approve of this message.  Also, while Bethany says the Circle is "bearable," she does mention that she really enjoys teaching the children there.  While "very happy" might be a stretch, she'd found some happiness working with kids.  She should have been a mother and I'm personally glad I helped save one of her apprentices from Vengence.  

For those that didn't know, if you stop Anders/Vengence from killing the girl (from the Tranquil Solution quest,) and Bethany is in the Circle, you receive a letter not only giving Hawke thanks for saving her life, but that she looks up to and admires Bethany.

Anyhow, I think with a few horrible exceptions, most Templars are just trying to do their jobs.  To not only protect the world from mages, but also to protect mages from the world.  I'm sure rumors spread about which Templars needed to be avoided.  Plus, I thought at some point that Cullen told Hawke that he'd keep an eye out for Bethany.

I swear, poor Cullen was one of the last sane people left in the entire city at that point.

Finally, even before she became the Champion, Hawke was a well-respected noble, respected by the Viscount, with plenty of contacts throughout the city.  She (I always play ladies) would have found out about it and found a way to manulipate the Viscount into getting involved.  I didn't mind the guy, but the Viscount really had no spine.  Anyhow, pissing off the local noblity is a bad idea, and it's safer to abuse people with no ties to the city and/or peasants.  It doesn't make it right, but being noble does have it's perks.

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

True. Considering that Alain is getting raped by templars whether Kerras is alive or dead, I'm not certain why anyone would vilify him for using blood magic with no malevolent intent (since it's not an inherently evil school of magic), especially given that he's working with a templar to overthrow an oppressive regime.

In the one instance shown there was no Malevolent intent and considering his entire posse just got obliterated inside fifteen seconds by the champion...There wouldn't be would there?

Doesn't mean he doesn't need to die for knowing it though.

Alain was part of a group of templars and mages who wanted to topple a despot, and the rebel templars and mages wanted to work together as equals; I'm not seeing how Alain is deserving of death for that.

Master Warder Z wrote...

And it is pretty much an inherently evil school of magic. 

No, it isn't. This is blood magic, not the dark side of the Force. It's used for benevolent applications, and it doesn't automatically corrupt the user.

[dragonflight288]

Master Warder Z wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

I mean even Allain ends up using blood magic thus proving that even those we suspect of being innocent have resorted to learning the forbidden.

But wasn't Blood Magic needed to remove that ward thing that was trapping your sibling/LI/friend?

Was it's usage justified in this instance? Possibly but that is beside the point.

He still had to learn it, either by reading corruptive tomes that were penned by those who made pacts with Demons or Looking a demon in the eye to learn the ability himself. Eitherway that kid is hardly as clean as the driven snow.

The sad thing is? Only in DA do i actually frown upon Blood Magic, Where it exists elsewhere i generally have no opinion or support the usage of it. DA is diffrent Mainly due to its corruptive influences and source, But that said its more beign area's such as scying or in usage of Philacteries is acceptable.

Or by using it to power a spell he already knows but can't do without a lot of lyrium.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

True. Considering that Alain is getting raped by templars whether Kerras is alive or dead, I'm not certain why anyone would vilify him for using blood magic with no malevolent intent (since it's not an inherently evil school of magic), especially given that he's working with a templar to overthrow an oppressive regime.

In the one instance shown there was no Malevolent intent and considering his entire posse just got obliterated inside fifteen seconds by the champion...There wouldn't be would there?

Doesn't mean he doesn't need to die for knowing it though.

Alain was part of a group of templars and mages who wanted to topple a despot, and the rebel templars and mages wanted to work together as equals; I'm not seeing how Alain is deserving of death for that.

Master Warder Z wrote...

And it is pretty much an inherently evil school of magic. 

No, it isn't. This is blood magic, not the dark side of the Force. It's used for benevolent applications, and it doesn't automatically corrupt the user.

He deserves to die for submitting to the forbidden and for his possible threat of using it, him being with traitors and conspiritors is just icing on the cake.

I don't see the Darkside and Blood Magic as Opposites of each other namely because The Darkside in SW is mainly made up of emotions that are inherently labeled as Negative but are in truth the truest of the passions that said i won't divert off topic to explain how the Darkside isn't "evil".

And furthermore it sort of does corrupt the user considering that with heavy usage you get strange notions such as using people as cattle for larger and more grander applications, You get cozy around demons and spirits and it just opens the can of worms a little to far.

Honestly the whole Merril agrument does get tiresome. 

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

I mean even Allain ends up using blood magic thus proving that even those we suspect of being innocent have resorted to learning the forbidden.

But wasn't Blood Magic needed to remove that ward thing that was trapping your sibling/LI/friend?

Was it's usage justified in this instance? Possibly but that is beside the point.

He still had to learn it, either by reading corruptive tomes that were penned by those who made pacts with Demons or Looking a demon in the eye to learn the ability himself. Eitherway that kid is hardly as clean as the driven snow.

The sad thing is? Only in DA do i actually frown upon Blood Magic, Where it exists elsewhere i generally have no opinion or support the usage of it. DA is diffrent Mainly due to its corruptive influences and source, But that said its more beign area's such as scying or in usage of Philacteries is acceptable.

Or by using it to power a spell he already knows but can't do without a lot of lyrium.

That doesn't apply in this situation though considering said person was imprisioned using blood magic and thus it required it to get out.

And Furthermore if such a spell or ritual needed so much lyrium why wouldn't you just get more mages to concentrate their efforts? You don't need to sell your soul off to a demon merely to make a bigger fireball.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Blood magic isn't "evil" as well like dark side powers (well both are harmful for other but pretty much everything from sword to fireball is) however strange phenomenon is in both causes because most users just become insane or super di*** with only few good guys using it. Well it would be stupid not use blood magic if you are abused by guys that only way to defeat them is blood magic just to follow law and restrictions guys who abuse you...

    

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Starsyn wrote...
Anyhow, I think with a few horrible exceptions, most Templars are just trying to do their jobs.  To not only protect the world from mages, but also to protect mages from the world.  I'm sure rumors spread about which Templars needed to be avoided.  Plus, I thought at some point that Cullen told Hawke that he'd keep an eye out for Bethany.

I swear, poor Cullen was one of the last sane people left in the entire city at that point.

Yeah. Most of the Templars you talk to, from Cullen to Thrask to the recruits, seem like pretty decent people. Cullen may have some extreme views, but considering what he went through in Origins I can't blame him for that.

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

He deserves to die for submitting to the forbidden and for his possible threat of using it, him being with traitors and conspiritors is just icing on the cake.

Do you also think Grey Warden mages who use blood magic should be killed? Or that the Joining should be abolished since it's a form of blood magic? And I'm not seeing Meredith as a leader who should be followed, so I'm not seeing Thrask or his rebellion as villainous; I wish his plot was explored, instead of tossed aside for another insane and stupid mage. I thought Thrask was an interesting character.

Master Warder Z wrote...

I don't see the Darkside and Blood Magic as Opposites of each other namely because The Darkside in SW is mainly made up of emotions that are inherently labeled as Negative but are in truth the truest of the passions that said i won't divert off topic to explain how the Darkside isn't "evil".

And furthermore it sort of does corrupt the user considering that with heavy usage you get strange notions such as using people as cattle for larger and more grander applications, You get cozy around demons and spirits and it just opens the can of worms a little to far.

Honestly the whole Merril agrument does get tiresome. 

Merrill and the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic disprove that it automatically corrupts the user.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

He deserves to die for submitting to the forbidden and for his possible threat of using it, him being with traitors and conspiritors is just icing on the cake.

Do you also think Grey Warden mages who use blood magic should be killed? Or that the Joining should be abolished since it's a form of blood magic? And I'm not seeing Meredith as a leader who should be followed, so I'm not seeing Thrask or his rebellion as villainous; I wish his plot was explored, instead of tossed aside for another insane and stupid mage. I thought Thrask was an interesting character.

Master Warder Z wrote...

I don't see the Darkside and Blood Magic as Opposites of each other namely because The Darkside in SW is mainly made up of emotions that are inherently labeled as Negative but are in truth the truest of the passions that said i won't divert off topic to explain how the Darkside isn't "evil".

And furthermore it sort of does corrupt the user considering that with heavy usage you get strange notions such as using people as cattle for larger and more grander applications, You get cozy around demons and spirits and it just opens the can of worms a little to far.

Honestly the whole Merril agrument does get tiresome. 

Merrill and the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic disprove that it automatically corrupts the user.

Gray Wardens have been a subject of concern obviously within the chantry and templars considering that apparently at least a few Apostates including Blood Mages warrented enough talent to actually join and thus be shielded from Justice in the name of combating the blight.

But individually? Yes i do, Blood Magic shouldn't be allowed, it shouldn't be condoned and it shouldn't be painted as something other then what it is.

And Merrill wasn't corrupted? Seeking out console with Demons, Ignoring the perril of the path, Falling pray to Demonic suggestion all point out otherwise. I mean i would prefer to see that being demonic corruption to her just being that stupid but perhaps its a mixture of childish and willful ignorance, stupidity and corruption.

And the Warden was a PC so unless if you want to roleplay the corruption into it, it wouldn't become a subject of concern within DAO because it wasn't a feature implemented.

[lady_v23]

Who said she wasn't? Maybe Bethany is a perverted masochist.. Ever thought of that?

But seriously, messing with the champion's sister is a bad idea.

[Skorm777]

rasloveszev wrote...

General TSAR wrote...

A better question is why are you posting so many speculative threads?

And people don't?

They do, and both you and them can stop anytime. Why don't you lead the effort. 

[Jaison1986]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

He deserves to die for submitting to the forbidden and for his possible threat of using it, him being with traitors and conspiritors is just icing on the cake.

Do you also think Grey Warden mages who use blood magic should be killed? Or that the Joining should be abolished since it's a form of blood magic? And I'm not seeing Meredith as a leader who should be followed, so I'm not seeing Thrask or his rebellion as villainous; I wish his plot was explored, instead of tossed aside for another insane and stupid mage. I thought Thrask was an interesting character.

Master Warder Z wrote...

I don't see the Darkside and Blood Magic as Opposites of each other namely because The Darkside in SW is mainly made up of emotions that are inherently labeled as Negative but are in truth the truest of the passions that said i won't divert off topic to explain how the Darkside isn't "evil".

And furthermore it sort of does corrupt the user considering that with heavy usage you get strange notions such as using people as cattle for larger and more grander applications, You get cozy around demons and spirits and it just opens the can of worms a little to far.

Honestly the whole Merril agrument does get tiresome. 

Merrill and the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic disprove that it automatically corrupts the user.

Gray Wardens have been a subject of concern obviously within the chantry and templars considering that apparently at least a few Apostates including Blood Mages warrented enough talent to actually join and thus be shielded from Justice in the name of combating the blight.

But individually? Yes i do, Blood Magic shouldn't be allowed, it shouldn't be condoned and it shouldn't be painted as something other then what it is.

And Merrill wasn't corrupted? Seeking out console with Demons, Ignoring the perril of the path, Falling pray to Demonic suggestion all point out otherwise. I mean i would prefer to see that being demonic corruption to her just being that stupid but perhaps its a mixture of childish and willful ignorance, stupidity and corruption.

And the Warden was a PC so unless if you want to roleplay the corruption into it, it wouldn't become a subject of concern within DAO because it wasn't a feature implemented.

The irony is that without blood magic, the wardens would never be able to create their joining ritual, they would never be able to slay the archdemon and the Chantry and their templars would never exist in the first place. The irony is that while many claim that blood magic created the darkspawn, it was blood magic too that saved the world from them. 

So just to blow your mind buddy, blood magic pretty much is what saved the world long time ago.

Modifié par Jaison1986, 04 janvier 2014 - 11:55 .

[Veruin]

Jaison1986 wrote...

The irony is that without blood magic, the wardens would never be able to create their joining ritual, they would never be able to slay the archdemon and the Chantry and their templars would never exist in the first place. The irony is that while many claim that blood magic created the darkspawn, it was blood magic too that saved the world from them. 

So just to blow your mind buddy, blood magic pretty much is what saved the world long time ago.

So, that's what?  Good application of blood magic 4, evil applications 30?

Modifié par Veruin, 04 janvier 2014 - 11:58 .

[Hellion Rex]

Veruin wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

The irony is that without blood magic, the wardens would never be able to create their joining ritual, they would never be able to slay the archdemon and the Chantry and their templars would never exist in the first place. The irony is that while many claim that blood magic created the darkspawn, it was blood magic too that saved the world from them. 

So just to blow your mind buddy, blood magic pretty much is what saved the world long time ago.

So, that's what?  Good application of blood magic 4, evil applications 30?

I think you have to take it up on a case by case basis, rather than just keep score like that. On the whole, yes, the majority of blood magic has been used for evil or corrupt purposes. But does that mean that it cannot be used for good intentions? No, I don't believe that. Although I do find it ironic, that blood magic did start the Blights, and that a form of blood magic now rectifies the hubris of the magisters.

[Jaison1986]

Veruin wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

The irony is that without blood magic, the wardens would never be able to create their joining ritual, they would never be able to slay the archdemon and the Chantry and their templars would never exist in the first place. The irony is that while many claim that blood magic created the darkspawn, it was blood magic too that saved the world from them. 

So just to blow your mind buddy, blood magic pretty much is what saved the world long time ago.

So, that's what?  Good application of blood magic 4, evil applications 30?

It means that it's biased to vilify it when it can be used for good things when handled by the right people.

[Master Warder Z_]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

He deserves to die for submitting to the forbidden and for his possible threat of using it, him being with traitors and conspiritors is just icing on the cake.

Do you also think Grey Warden mages who use blood magic should be killed? Or that the Joining should be abolished since it's a form of blood magic? And I'm not seeing Meredith as a leader who should be followed, so I'm not seeing Thrask or his rebellion as villainous; I wish his plot was explored, instead of tossed aside for another insane and stupid mage. I thought Thrask was an interesting character.

Master Warder Z wrote...

I don't see the Darkside and Blood Magic as Opposites of each other namely because The Darkside in SW is mainly made up of emotions that are inherently labeled as Negative but are in truth the truest of the passions that said i won't divert off topic to explain how the Darkside isn't "evil".

And furthermore it sort of does corrupt the user considering that with heavy usage you get strange notions such as using people as cattle for larger and more grander applications, You get cozy around demons and spirits and it just opens the can of worms a little to far.

Honestly the whole Merril agrument does get tiresome. 

Merrill and the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic disprove that it automatically corrupts the user.

Gray Wardens have been a subject of concern obviously within the chantry and templars considering that apparently at least a few Apostates including Blood Mages warrented enough talent to actually join and thus be shielded from Justice in the name of combating the blight.

But individually? Yes i do, Blood Magic shouldn't be allowed, it shouldn't be condoned and it shouldn't be painted as something other then what it is.

And Merrill wasn't corrupted? Seeking out console with Demons, Ignoring the perril of the path, Falling pray to Demonic suggestion all point out otherwise. I mean i would prefer to see that being demonic corruption to her just being that stupid but perhaps its a mixture of childish and willful ignorance, stupidity and corruption.

And the Warden was a PC so unless if you want to roleplay the corruption into it, it wouldn't become a subject of concern within DAO because it wasn't a feature implemented.

The irony is that without blood magic, the wardens would never be able to create their joining ritual, they would never be able to slay the archdemon and the Chantry and their templars would never exist in the first place. The irony is that while many claim that blood magic created the darkspawn, it was blood magic too that saved the world from them. 

So just to blow your mind buddy, blood magic pretty much is what saved the world long time ago.

Truely? Considering that me just skimming through both the DA wiki and World of Thedas guide to DA stated little about the Warden's Joining other then the known Ingreidents and how fatal it is.

So is Blood Magic truely required or is it do merely to replace a Mortar being used in its place? It seems any half talented Alchemist could mix the concotion together.

And i really doubt it involves blood magic considering that in the case of DAO you had the circle mages preparing the brew after the components were gathered by the Wardens, I STRONGLY doubt that they would practice blood magic right in front of the templars even at the warden's request.

Furthermore Blood Magic doesn't enter into the forumala until you run into Avernus which his speculation was the cause of its usage upon Wardens and his modified "Joining" Ritual. 

So while there has been at least one notable exception, in my eye? You don't need Blood Magic to produce Wardens, at least until more light is shed upon the subject and more of the process of its brew is revealed.

So did my lore blow your mind buddy?