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[Master Warder Z_]

Rassler wrote...

Guys please, you either skip conversations or don't pay attention. Every mage that Hawke can click on and start a conversation with talks about the abuses. I started a new game and just went through this. Anders quoting Karl's letter which was the main cause Anders went to Kirkwall to save him









This was the diplomatic response to all this:

Covered this point during my first post on the thread.

Every time you hear of "Abuses" it either comes from anders or people in the same camp as him.

[Veruin]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Covered this point during my first post on the thread.

Every time you hear of "Abuses" it either comes from anders or people in the same camp as him.

Obviously those mages are too scared to mention it or indoctrinated.  I mean, Anders isn't biased in the slightest.

[JCAP]

3 reasons:

1º- Cullen promised Hawke to keep an eye on her (if I remember right)

2º- Hawke, act 2 he is bloody rich (and therefore, he has influence), act 3 he is the Champion (Meredith would never dream pissing off Hawke)

3º- If Bethany was abused, it would automatically turn the player agains't the Templars.

[Lord Raijin]

eluvianix wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Rassler wrote...

You are right about cullen. Also another matter is most amusing. Three Mages of Starkhaven (Grace and others) were made tranquil chosen randomly. So this means the mastermind behind the escape and wife of a blood mage who becomes possessed later in the game remains unpunished. Also there were no proof of them being blood mage and they passed their harrowing and shouldn't have been made tranquil especially not chosen randomly for it. You can hear these comments when you speak with Alian and Grace after Grace and the others have been caught if you help them escape (in act 2) 

Is that if you turn them in? Because Meredith executes 3 random ones if they are caught later if you help them escape. 

Yeah, what happens to the 3 mages changes based on your actions at the end of the quest. Either made Tranquil or executed.

The Templar's need a good dose of Justice because they've gone too far in their authority. Even when I do think outside the box I can't find any logical excuse to warrant such random executions on mages or force a harrowed mage to undergo the Rite just to set an example. That is flat out murder and you wonder why a mage like Ander's sought revenge by blowing up the Chantry.

[Hellion Rex]

Veruin wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Covered this point during my first post on the thread.

Every time you hear of "Abuses" it either comes from anders or people in the same camp as him.

Obviously those mages are too scared to mention it or indoctrinated.  I mean, Anders isn't biased in the slightest.

Doesn't change the fact that there was abuse, sexual and physical, that occured within that Circle.

[MisterJB]

Karl was the lover of a terrorist who escaped the Circle seven times; he was smuggling letters to said terrorist and you are surprised he gets made Tranquil. There is no reason to believe his personality is anything like Bethany. She was someone who disliked her magic and was content with her life on the Circle which means she didn't breed animosity with the Templars which reduces the chances of her being abused.
I'm not going to say Kirkwall's Circle was perfect but it's pretty obvious that not EVERY mage was being whipped for asking for more food. For example, Ser Alrik was a despicable man who liked turning mages into Tranquil and then using them as sex toys. However, the two mages we know for sure he Tranquilized; or was going to; was:
a)Said lover of terrorist smuggling letters asking for help escaping.
some girl who escaped the Circle to visit her mother.

Now, you can say that the Rite is too harsh a punishment for these crimes and I will agree. But it's evident that the mages had to at least do SOMETHING in order to merit these overly harsh punishments.
Bethany was clearly well behaved and the fact her brother/sister was rich and then the Champion also helped.

PS: "Mages fall to demons. The Chantry can't trust them with the same freedoms as normal men."

[Hellion Rex]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Every time you hear of "Abuses" it either comes from anders or people in the same camp as him.

Drop the Anders camp BS. You know damned well there was some messed up crap going on the Gallows.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

1.It's the usage of blood implacement of Mana, that by it self? I have no issue with its the method of its aquirement, its source so to speak. Its pure idiocy to let Power gleaned and formed by demons to be used by those they wish to possess above all others.

So its a threat first and foremost, not a school of magery.

There's no evidence blood magic originated from demons. It's inception is a matter of dispute. And we've met mages who use blood magic and aren't inherently evil; even Duncan notes some Grey Warden mages use blood magic to give them an edge against the darkspawn.

Master Warder Z wrote...

2.  After learning of the mirror from a source that would be biased at best, She does fail to realize the demon was merely using her and her desires against her, she let demonic influence cloud her common sense, when in truth all it was doing is corrupting her. My Final point is, its either pure idiocy or demonic corruption.

After blatantly ignoring the fact that Merrill got her information about the Eluvians from the shard and the lore she gathered, you decided to say her efforts to stop the plight of the People were idiotic or corrupt because she didn't share your pro-templar point of view. She learned blood magic from a trapped demon that was powerless to harm her because it was trapped inside a totem by ancient elven magic since the war between the Arlathan elves and the Tevinter Magisters, but you're not addressing that because...?

Master Warder Z wrote...

I mean the Dalish obviously know the risks of consorting with Demons yet Merril was willing to overlook them all for at the word of a demon, if that isn't corruption i don't know what is.

The Dalish don't even have the same religious views as Andrastians to see Spirits and Demons; they see all denizens of the Beyond as spirits, and view them all as dangerous. And I'm not certain why you keep ignoring the fact that Audacity was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem; all it could do was talk and show images, nothing more.

Master Warder Z wrote...

3.That doesn't mean it doesn't affect them, Its just another feature that wasn't implemented. 

There is no evidence anywhere that states that blood magic automatically corrupts the user, and we've met blood mages who aren't evil or inherently corrupted.

1.You didn't even hear me mentioning duncan or the darkspawn and the practices of the Gray Wardens really don't interest me, they are better equiped then most to handle any abominations regardless i just view it as a pointless risk.

2.You seem to think Demons need to physically attack or attempt to possess mages to corrupt them; It lured her to blood magic, to do its bidding and turned her into something that in my eye needs to be destroyed thats a matter of perspective but just because a good portion of its power was sealed doesn't automatically mean it cannot mislead her for its own ends WHICH it did.

Which is a point you don't seem to want to admit.

3. If you state Jowan i will merely laugh and then point out him slitting his wrists and then hurtling magic at templars while abandoning his lover is hardly noble. If you state Merril i will point out how she was led by the nose for seven years by a demon. About the only blood mage i would consider inherently "non" corrupted by its influence would be a person who used it only when required and then shelved it for the rest of his life.

Malcolm Hawke.

There are valid uses of it i will not agrue that point, but those are so rare within DA the situations that require them can be counted on a single hand.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

Karl was the lover of a terrorist who escaped the Circle seven times; he was smuggling letters to said terrorist and you are surprised he gets made Tranquil. There is no reason to believe his personality is anything like Bethany. She was someone who disliked her magic and was content with her life on the Circle which means she didn't breed animosity with the Templars which reduces the chances of her being abused.
I'm not going to say Kirkwall's Circle was perfect but it's pretty obvious that not EVERY mage was being whipped for asking for more food. For example, Ser Alrik was a despicable man who liked turning mages into Tranquil and then using them as sex toys. However, the two mages we know for sure he Tranquilized; or was going to; was:
a)Said lover of terrorist smuggling letters asking for help escaping.
some girl who escaped the Circle to visit her mother.

Now, you can say that the Rite is too harsh a punishment for these crimes and I will agree. But it's evident that the mages had to at least do SOMETHING in order to merit these overly harsh punishments.
Bethany was clearly well behaved and the fact her brother/sister was rich and then the Champion also helped.

PS: "Mages fall to demons. The Chantry can't trust them with the same freedoms as normal men."

Bear in mind though, that at this point, Anders was not a terrorist. He had escaped the Circle 7 times, but had not proven to be maleficar or otherwise. Karl was indeed smuggling letters to Anders, but Anders was nothing more than a Grey Warden at that time.

[MisterJB]

The point stands. "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down". Bethany was content with her life and the Templars left her alone.
It seems that the best way to avoid being abused by the Templars is to comply with the rules of the Circle. Who knew?

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

The point stands. "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down". Bethany was content with her life and the Templars left her alone.
It seems that the best way to avoid being abused by the Templars is to comply with the rules of the Circle. Who knew?

Bah. You and your silly logic.

[Lulupab]

MisterJB wrote...

The point stands. "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down". Bethany was content with her life and the Templars left her alone.
It seems that the best way to avoid being abused by the Templars is to comply with the rules of the Circle. Who knew?

Knight commander herself fears Hawke. Who would dare touch Bethany? I mean she knows Hakwe is an apostate (if hawke is a mage) who has 2 apostate friends as well yet she can't do **** about it. 

Modifié par Rassler, 05 janvier 2014 - 03:13 .

[Veruin]

eluvianix wrote...
Bear in mind though, that at this point, Anders was not a terrorist. He had escaped the Circle 7 times, but had not proven to be maleficar or otherwise. Karl was indeed smuggling letters to Anders, but Anders was nothing more than a Grey Warden at that time.

I'm not sure how much being a "templar murderer" (Remember, that rylock gal or someone from Awakening assumed Anders murdered his templar hunters.) would play a part, but it's worth considering and with Amaranthine being on the northern part of Ferelden and close to Kirkwall, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume the templars sent word there in case Anders fled the country.

[Lord Raijin]

Anders: The Rite of Tranquility is the whole problem. If they didn't have that to hold over us, we'd have so many more options.
Bethany: Right! If we want to fight back... or just engage in intelligent debate... they make sure we can't do it.
Anders: They're forcing our hands. There's no way to change things peacefully.
Bethany: There must be something.
Anders: If it's Tranquility or death, we have no choice but to make every confrontation a life-or-death struggle.
Bethany: I know, but... there are good people in the Circle, the Chantry. There has to be a way to reason with them.
Anders: Not if they take away your ability to reason.

[Hellion Rex]

Veruin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Bear in mind though, that at this point, Anders was not a terrorist. He had escaped the Circle 7 times, but had not proven to be maleficar or otherwise. Karl was indeed smuggling letters to Anders, but Anders was nothing more than a Grey Warden at that time.

I'm not sure how much being a "templar murderer" (Remember, that rylock gal or someone from Awakening assumed Anders murdered his templar hunters.) would play a part, but it's worth considering and with Amaranthine being on the northern part of Ferelden and close to Kirkwall, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume the templars sent word there in case Anders fled the country.

Templar killer or not though, those Templars who attempted to catch him were attempting to supercede the Right of Conscription, something the Chantry has always bowed to.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The point stands. "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down". Bethany was content with her life and the Templars left her alone.
It seems that the best way to avoid being abused by the Templars is to comply with the rules of the Circle. Who knew?

Bah. You and your silly logic.

I'm just saying. Wynne defends the Circle = has a child with a templar and is trusted enough to travel without an escort while half of Ferelden is fleeing.
Anders escapes seven times = spends a year in solitary.

Raging against the system will only lead to the system cracking down on you harder.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
Templar killer or not though, those Templars who attempted to catch him were attempting to supercede the Right of Conscription, something the Chantry has always bowed to.

I believe Veruin was referring to the Templars Anders claims were killed by Darkspawn.

Also, if the Warden Commander goes along with Anders' scheme, then s/he is effectivelly invading Chantry proprierty in order to steal something that belonged to them.
I know we are biased in favor of our PCs, but the Warden-Commander clearly took the first step towards antagonizing the Chantry, not the other way around.

[Veruin]

eluvianix wrote...

Templar killer or not though, those Templars who attempted to catch him were attempting to supercede the Right of Conscription, something the Chantry has always bowed to.

Still though.  "Mage x has murdered a few templars, but is protected by being a Grey warden.  Watch out for him"   Doesn't seem like too far of a stretch.  They can't do anything to Anders, but a mage conversing with someone they believe has murdered their own?  They could take precations, although tranqulity was a little too far.

MisterJB wrote...
I believe Veruin was referring to the Templars Anders claims were killed by Darkspawn.

We don't know if he did or not, but those templars thought he did.

Modifié par Veruin, 05 janvier 2014 - 03:25 .

[AntiChri5]

Bethany is probably the worst target in the circle.

She is:

An accomplished combatant capable of surviving for years as a mercenary or within a criminal organisation, capable of defeating Templars in combat. Despite this, she is a model mage and doesn't make trouble.

The sister of the richest person in the city, who saved the Templars from a blood mage plot which could have destroyed them, saving the second in command of the Templars in the process. This person also does odd jobs for the Viscount, and saved his sons life.

Personal friends with the captain of the guard.

Always seen near and around Orsino. They appear to be close, she seems to be almost a student of his.

A self confident apostate without the habitual submission to Templars of a Circle Mage.

Bethany makes an absoultely terrible target. The only person less likely to be targeted is Orsino.

The Templars would have to be 90% psychotic rapists for her to be abused, and however you feel about the Kirkwall Templars you can't deny they aren't that bad.

[Vit246]

delete

Modifié par Vit246, 05 janvier 2014 - 03:29 .

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The point stands. "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down". Bethany was content with her life and the Templars left her alone.
It seems that the best way to avoid being abused by the Templars is to comply with the rules of the Circle. Who knew?

Bah. You and your silly logic.

I'm just saying. Wynne defends the Circle = has a child with a templar and is trusted enough to travel without an escort while half of Ferelden is fleeing.
Anders escapes seven times = spends a year in solitary.

Raging against the system will only lead to the system cracking down on you harder.

That's why I liked Wynne more than Anders or Fiona.

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

1.You didn't even hear me mentioning duncan or the darkspawn and the practices of the Gray Wardens really don't interest me, they are better equiped then most to handle any abominations regardless i just view it as a pointless risk.

I see nothing pointless about it.

Master Warder Z wrote...

2.You seem to think Demons need to physically attack or attempt to possess mages to corrupt them; It lured her to blood magic, to do its bidding and turned her into something that in my eye needs to be destroyed thats a matter of perspective but just because a good portion of its power was sealed doesn't automatically mean it cannot mislead her for its own ends WHICH it did.

Which is a point you don't seem to want to admit.

That's because my comments address the reality of the narrative. Do I need to revisit the facts again? Apparently so: Merrill researched the lore and extrapolated information from the shard; she build an Eluvian from her own research. She learned blood magic from Audacity, but never made any bargain to release him; she chose to pursue revolutionary technology of her own volition because it might have irrevocably changed the lives of the People for the better. Merrill says time and again that she thinks this technology might save the People. Even several years later, Merrill makes it clear to an aggressive Hawke that releasing Audacity isn't an option. Marethari released Audacity, and her dialogue suggests she fell prey to Audacity's machinations; Merrill didn't.

Master Warder Z wrote...

3. If you state Jowan i will merely laugh and then point out him slitting his wrists and then hurtling magic at templars while abandoning his lover is hardly noble. If you state Merril i will point out how she was led by the nose for seven years by a demon. About the only blood mage i would consider inherently "non" corrupted by its influence would be a person who used it only when required and then shelved it for the rest of his life.

Jowan's mistakes were of his own making, and he can end up dedicating himself to protecting refugees from the darkspawn. Merrill isn't 'lead by the nose'; she wanted to reconstruct the Eluvian, and did so from her own research. Marethari is the one who falls prey to Audacity, while Merrill never releases Audacity.

Master Warder Z wrote...

There are valid uses of it i will not agrue that point, but those are so rare within DA the situations that require them can be counted on a single hand. 

You and I will have to simply disagree on that.

[MisterJB]

edit: Vit46 deleted the post I was responding to.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 janvier 2014 - 03:32 .

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

1.You didn't even hear me mentioning duncan or the darkspawn and the practices of the Gray Wardens really don't interest me, they are better equiped then most to handle any abominations regardless i just view it as a pointless risk.

I see nothing pointless about it.

Master Warder Z wrote...

2.You seem to think Demons need to physically attack or attempt to possess mages to corrupt them; It lured her to blood magic, to do its bidding and turned her into something that in my eye needs to be destroyed thats a matter of perspective but just because a good portion of its power was sealed doesn't automatically mean it cannot mislead her for its own ends WHICH it did.

Which is a point you don't seem to want to admit.

That's because my comments address the reality of the narrative. Do I need to revisit the facts again? Apparently so: Merrill researched the lore and extrapolated information from the shard; she build an Eluvian from her own research. She learned blood magic from Audacity, but never made any bargain to release him; she chose to pursue revolutionary technology of her own volition because it might have irrevocably changed the lives of the People for the better. Merrill says time and again that she thinks this technology might save the People. Even several years later, Merrill makes it clear to an aggressive Hawke that releasing Audacity isn't an option. Marethari released Audacity, and her dialogue suggests she fell prey to Audacity's machinations; Merrill didn't.

Master Warder Z wrote...

3. If you state Jowan i will merely laugh and then point out him slitting his wrists and then hurtling magic at templars while abandoning his lover is hardly noble. If you state Merril i will point out how she was led by the nose for seven years by a demon. About the only blood mage i would consider inherently "non" corrupted by its influence would be a person who used it only when required and then shelved it for the rest of his life.

Jowan's mistakes were of his own making, and he can end up dedicating himself to protecting refugees from the darkspawn. Merrill isn't 'lead by the nose'; she wanted to reconstruct the Eluvian, and did so from her own research. Marethari is the one who falls prey to Audacity, while Merrill never releases Audacity.

Master Warder Z wrote...

There are valid uses of it i will not agrue that point, but those are so rare within DA the situations that require them can be counted on a single hand. 

You and I will have to simply disagree on that.

1. Excuse me for thinking that the Magic of war is just as suitable for battling darkspawn as slitting your own writs or dragging slaves into the field and using them to achieve the same result.

2.  The demon was only released because it came to that point, had Merril abandoned her path that would have never been nessary and agruing otherwise to me seems like throwing dust into the wind; Moving along. Of her own volition? She learned of the mirror via delving into her people's lore true but she learned of its process of creation and method of construction through conversations with a demon, and during the very quest she goes to seek concil with the demon once again she seems to think that her previous dealings with the demon will leave her vulerable to possession that seems to lean towards the agrument of her gleaning that knowledge with a price.

Whether it was the process of constructing her mirror or the usage of blood magic or not is irrelevant it does bring it past the point of mere conjecture. So in her research she even admits that she may have been corrupted, for the good or her people or no and i will parapraise Meredith here.

"Mages fall pray to demons regardless of noble intention." 

And in her case? I think she did.

3. He can never atone for his "dabbling" and only because it wasn't there for her to release.

4. I could have told you that at the begining, i don't view Blood Magic as acceptable for any mage to possess therefore the usages of it that would be acceptable are next to non existant in my eye.

[BlueMagitek]

eluvianix wrote...

Bear in mind though, that at this point, Anders was not a terrorist. He had escaped the Circle 7 times, but had not proven to be maleficar or otherwise. Karl was indeed smuggling letters to Anders, but Anders was nothing more than a Grey Warden at that time.

That isn't quite correct.  Anders was, shall we say, a people person.  He had unique tastes.  You might say he was a humanitarian. 

By that I mean that Anders eats people.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 05 janvier 2014 - 03:44 .