288 réponses à ce sujet

[Karlone123]

Angrywolves wrote...

Bethany joined the wardens in my playthrough.I thought it was safer than her being in the circle.

Just keep in mind the Grey Wardens take on just about anyone regardless of who they are. They could be grey wardens who may want to "touch" a young woman like Bethany.

[Karlone123]

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Every time you hear of "Abuses" it either comes from anders or people in the same camp as him.

Drop the Anders camp BS. You know damned well there was some messed up crap going on the Gallows.

I think in act 1 you can someone getting beat up in the Gallows.

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...
The point stands. "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down". Bethany was content with her life and the Templars left her alone.
It seems that the best way to avoid being abused by the Templars is to comply with the rules of the Circle. Who knew?

The issue is this: "If the only tool you have is a hammer - every problem has to look like a nail." 

The templars use force and that's it.

Rather than address bad templar imposed policies that lead to friction and rule-breaking - i.e. mages denied freely sending and receiving mail, mages being denied visits with family, being locked in their quarters, denied apperances at court, the incredible number of oppressive policies in general, and the rotten culture of the Kirkwall circle - mages are harshly punished - and expected to accept their harsh punishment on the excuse they broke a minor rule.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 05 janvier 2014 - 04:45 .

[Dr. Doctor]

Bethany seems more interested in being able to criticize the Circle in a civil manner without fear of being made tranquil while Anders is more interested in tearing down the establishment.

In general, there must be some way of allowing mages to live in society with templar oversight. There's no way you can find every mage and stick them in a tower for good, just from a manpower perspective.

Training each prospective mage, having them undergo the Harrowing, and then using phylacteries as a sort of GPS ankle bracelet that keeps track of them in the outside world could work but might require more work on the part of the Templars.

[Vandicus]

Rassler wrote...

Guys please, you either skip conversations or don't pay attention. Every mage that Hawke can click on and start a conversation with talks about the abuses. I started a new game and just went through this. Anders quoting Karl's letter which was the main cause Anders went to Kirkwall to save him









This was the diplomatic response to all this:

Huh, so more blood mages are killed by Hawke each year in Kirkwall than mages are made Tranquil(majority of which probably haven't passed the Harrowing, because if Tranquilizing Harrowed mages was common practice Elthina would've heard of it and Orsino would've made mention of it).

[Master Warder Z_]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

Bethany seems more interested in being able to criticize the Circle in a civil manner without fear of being made tranquil while Anders is more interested in tearing down the establishment.

In general, there must be some way of allowing mages to live in society with templar oversight. There's no way you can find every mage and stick them in a tower for good, just from a manpower perspective.

Training each prospective mage, having them undergo the Harrowing, and then using phylacteries as a sort of GPS ankle bracelet that keeps track of them in the outside world could work but might require more work on the part of the Templars.

There are tens of thousands of templars within White Thedas but your proposed idea would require even more then that. They would need far more resources and personal to be able to operate within whatever blighted village and blot on the map that a mage happened to decide to settle within.

Utimately having the mages centralized is just easier on manpower for the Templars.

[Veruin]

If people are going to quote that post...can you at least delete the pictures?

[BioFan (Official)]

Maybe it's the reason she went a little coo coo.....

[Invisible Man]

@ Master Warder Z
tranquilizing harrowed mages is about the one rule that is carved in stone in regards to what a templar can & can't do to a mage (in this case can't do). karl was a harrowed mage, that is one confirmed case right there.

Modifié par Invisible Man, 05 janvier 2014 - 04:24 .

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote....

Whether it was the process of constructing her mirror or the usage of blood magic or not is irrelevant it does bring it past the point of mere conjecture. So in her research she even admits that she may have been corrupted, for the good or her people or no and i will parapraise Meredith here.

Merrill doesn't say she's corrupted.

Master Warder Z wrote...

"Mages fall pray to demons regardless of noble intention." 

And in her case? I think she did.

While the facts tell a different story entirely. Merrill was constructing the Eluvian based on her own research, not through Audacity. Audacity provided blood magic; that's it. The entire point of seeking out Audacity in Act III is that she exhausted all the alternatives, and she wanted to speak to Audacity, who was trapped inside a totem. Doing something you disagree with doesn't make Merrill corrupt.

[Rotward]

Secretlyapotato wrote...

Because most templars are nice and don't usually rape mages?

Most prison guards in real life are abusive. It's fair to assume that most templars are abusive, too. 

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote....

Whether it was the process of constructing her mirror or the usage of blood magic or not is irrelevant it does bring it past the point of mere conjecture. So in her research she even admits that she may have been corrupted, for the good or her people or no and i will parapraise Meredith here.

Merrill doesn't say she's corrupted.

Master Warder Z wrote...

"Mages fall pray to demons regardless of noble intention." 

And in her case? I think she did.

While the facts tell a different story entirely. Merrill was constructing the Eluvian based on her own research, not through Audacity. Audacity provided blood magic; that's it. The entire point of seeking out Audacity in Act III is that she exhausted all the alternatives, and she wanted to speak to Audacity, who was trapped inside a totem. Doing something you disagree with doesn't make Merrill corrupt.

Mmm I do love pointing this out to you but she did truck with the Demon for information regarding the history, construction and methods of activation of her little mirror. She gave the Demon far more of herself then merely the amount required for a simple lesson.

Listen her to conversation with Hawke roughly at 5:52



She perhaps did gain some insight into the mirror from her clan's lore but i would agrue from that statement and several others like it through out this very quest and those preceding it that most of her knowledge of the mirror or looking glass came from the demon.

So in my opinion?

She basically would have been possesed had the demon been within the ancient hunk of stone and had the mirror been activated.

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Mmm I do love pointing this out to you but she did truck with the Demon for information regarding the history, construction and methods of activation of her little mirror. She gave the Demon far more of herself then merely the amount required for a simple lesson.

Listen her to conversation with Hawke roughly at 5:52



She perhaps did gain some insight into the mirror from her clan's lore but i would agrue from that statement and several others like it through out this very quest and those preceding it that most of her knowledge of the mirror or looking glass came from the demon.

So in my opinion?

She basically would have been possesed had the demon been within the ancient hunk of stone and had the mirror been activated. 

Your proof is Merrill addressing that Audacity taught her blood magic? Which I already addressed previously? I guess you must love telling me what I already know then.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Mmm I do love pointing this out to you but she did truck with the Demon for information regarding the history, construction and methods of activation of her little mirror. She gave the Demon far more of herself then merely the amount required for a simple lesson.

Listen her to conversation with Hawke roughly at 5:52



She perhaps did gain some insight into the mirror from her clan's lore but i would agrue from that statement and several others like it through out this very quest and those preceding it that most of her knowledge of the mirror or looking glass came from the demon.

So in my opinion?

She basically would have been possesed had the demon been within the ancient hunk of stone and had the mirror been activated. 

Your proof is Merrill addressing that Audacity taught her blood magic? Which I already addressed previously? I guess you must love telling me what I already know then.

Proof? No its merely the actual game to address the claim that all her connect with the demon was merely about the magic.

Did you miss the fact she addressed that the Demon spoke of the creation of the Mirror, Told her about the repairing process and history of the Mirror?

Unless if that information was dropped for free, she struck a bargain and considering it was a demon of Pride its likely she had to strike deal after deal to learn what she needed to know. Unless if you think the demon took her in as a charity case and decided to help her out as a freebie.

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Your proof is Merrill addressing that Audacity taught her blood magic? Which I already addressed previously? I guess you must love telling me what I already know then. 

Proof? No its merely the actual game to address the claim that all her connect with the demon was merely about the magic.

Did you miss the fact she addressed that the Demon spoke of the creation of the Mirror, Told her about the repairing process and history of the Mirror?

Unless if that information was dropped for free, she struck a bargain and considering it was a demon of Pride its likely she had to strike deal after deal to learn what she needed to know. Unless if you think the demon took her in as a charity case and decided to help her out as a freebie. 

This was addressed in Merrill's short story. Audacity said it was there during the creation of the Eluvian; no bargain was struck, and no one makes such a claim throughout the narrative of Kirkwall. Audacity isn't even in the Fade to wield any real power; it is trapped, and as the short story points out, harmless because he's encased inside a totem by ancient magic. Even the developers stated that Merrill was building the Eluvian from her own research.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Your proof is Merrill addressing that Audacity taught her blood magic? Which I already addressed previously? I guess you must love telling me what I already know then. 

Proof? No its merely the actual game to address the claim that all her connect with the demon was merely about the magic.

Did you miss the fact she addressed that the Demon spoke of the creation of the Mirror, Told her about the repairing process and history of the Mirror?

Unless if that information was dropped for free, she struck a bargain and considering it was a demon of Pride its likely she had to strike deal after deal to learn what she needed to know. Unless if you think the demon took her in as a charity case and decided to help her out as a freebie. 

This was addressed in Merrill's short story. Audacity said it was there during the creation of the Eluvian; no bargain was struck, and no one makes such a claim throughout the narrative of Kirkwall. Audacity isn't even in the Fade to wield any real power; it is trapped, and as the short story points out, harmless because he's encased inside a totem by ancient magic. Even the developers stated that Merrill was building the Eluvian from her own research.

I read that short story and it stated as much that is true, but unless if there are detailed plans on how to construct a looking glass just happening to lie around the campsite she would have had to have delt with the demon to have constructed her own considering that all she gleaned from that short vision it projected to her was a glimsp into the past because of the old elvish kingdom.

And i have never once heard a dev stated as much.

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

This was addressed in Merrill's short story. Audacity said it was there during the creation of the Eluvian; no bargain was struck, and no one makes such a claim throughout the narrative of Kirkwall. Audacity isn't even in the Fade to wield any real power; it is trapped, and as the short story points out, harmless because he's encased inside a totem by ancient magic. Even the developers stated that Merrill was building the Eluvian from her own research. 

I read that short story and it stated as much that is true, but unless if there are detailed plans on how to construct a looking glass just happening to lie around the campsite she would have had to have delt with the demon to have constructed her own considering that all she gleaned from that short vision it projected to her was a glimsp into the past because of the old elvish kingdom.

And i have never once heard a dev stated as much. 

Here you go then:

David Gaider wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Gotcha. So she basically recreates the rest of the eluvian she has in her house during Act II-III from the shard she takes via magic or whatever, I assume? 

She just has the one shard. She incorporates it into the mirror she builds, extrapolating its construction both from the shard itself and what lore she's been able to collect. Probably why she wasn't able to get it to work. 

[Fredward]

I'm just going to pop in here and say that as a fervent mage-supporter that in all likelihood mages aren't all constantly abused for ****s and giggles. That's a bit much. Especially not the sheep who all go along with what the Chantry wants anyway. You're going to get the sadistic templars just like you get the sadistic anything everywhere.

Not that it matters since the entire Circle system is a corrupt, unjustified, twisted construct anyway. It's not like mages need more reason to be rebel.

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 05 janvier 2014 - 06:08 .

[Dean_the_Young]

eluvianix wrote...

Veruin wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Covered this point during my first post on the thread.

Every time you hear of "Abuses" it either comes from anders or people in the same camp as him.

Obviously those mages are too scared to mention it or indoctrinated.  I mean, Anders isn't biased in the slightest.

Doesn't change the fact that there was abuse, sexual and physical, that occured within that Circle.

And it doesn't change that said abuses in the Circle can be exagerated and blown out of proportion by Anders and those inclined towards him. An unbiased source they are not, and yet their claims are seized upon as the minimum and then frequently exagerated.

Any source that claims that people are being severely punished for the slightest crime, while simultaneously claiming that only a dozen were punished so in the last year, is trying to sell you a bridge. One that many people seem to buy, considering that for all that we know of one serial abuser who has to act in secrecy, the assumption becomes that almost everyone in the Circle is being raped.

[In Exile]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Any source that claims that people are being severely punished for the slightest crime, while simultaneously claiming that only a dozen were punished so in the last year, is trying to sell you a bridge. One that many people seem to buy, considering that for all that we know of one serial abuser who has to act in secrecy, the assumption becomes that almost everyone in the Circle is being raped

That's not what Anders said. Citing the number of US executions does not tell us the number of prisoners in total. It's the same here, looking at the number of mages made tranquil.

[Dean_the_Young]

Youth4Ever wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
The point stands. "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down". Bethany was content with her life and the Templars left her alone.
It seems that the best way to avoid being abused by the Templars is to comply with the rules of the Circle. Who knew?

The issue is this: "If the only tool you have is a hammer - every problem has to look like a nail." 

The templars use force and that's it.

Rather than address bad templar imposed policies that lead to friction and rule-breaking - i.e. mages denied freely sending and receiving mail, mages being denied visits with family, being locked in their quarters, denied apperances at court, the incredible number of oppressive policies in general, and the rotten culture of the Kirkwall circle - mages are harshly punished - and expected to accept their harsh punishment on the excuse they broke a minor rule.

The court thing is a bit weird (why would mages have access to outsider jurisdiction anyway?), but the rest make sense in the context of what the Circle is: an isolation center. Room arrest is easy to abuse and easier to avoid abusing, but the whole mail and family thing is a pretty integral part of breaking the mages apart from outside society and leaving them internally connected. When dealing with a cloister setting, limiting outside contact and breaking foreign ties is a pretty fundamental piece of keeping the cloister intact: when outside communication and visitation is free, you both invite the security concerns (of coordinating breakout) and diminish the psychological investment in the community (by encouraging breakout to the outside connections).

Point is, if you're trying to make people buy into a new and separate group, breaking outside communications is more than just mean-spirited. It's part of the psychological conditioning and investment needed to keep a cloister functioning.



Of course, if you feel the cloister is inherently unjustified, none of the above matters past the horror of its effectiveness. You can certainly take it to incredible extremes: anyone who thinks the mages have it bad should read up on Maoist criticism meetings during WW2. That was psychological breakdown and reconstruction on line with torture.

[Dean_the_Young]

In Exile wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Any source that claims that people are being severely punished for the slightest crime, while simultaneously claiming that only a dozen were punished so in the last year, is trying to sell you a bridge. One that many people seem to buy, considering that for all that we know of one serial abuser who has to act in secrecy, the assumption becomes that almost everyone in the Circle is being raped

That's not what Anders said.

He's citing a letter, somewhat, but the point remains.

Citing the number of US executions does not tell us the number of prisoners in total. It's the same here, looking at the number of mages made tranquil.

That's turning apples and apples to apples and oranges. Two different standards of numbers, since in this context it wouldn't be number of prisoners in total but rather... the total number of executions. Because, in his words, the smallest crime is meeting that punishment. If all crimes garner the punishment, then the number of punishments is the number of crimes.

When someone says 'people are being executed for the smallest sin,' and 'a dozen were executed last year', that implies one of two things: either only twelve people made any sins in the last year, or that the first claim was wildly exagerated. Having spent the better part of the last year working with people in stressful environments, I have no doubt you can find more than twelve ****ups a person in a year, let alone twelve in a group of any significant size.

In this case, when Anders is talking about tranquility, it's the later. We see a number of repeat offenders who are not made tranquil, even when by all rights they could have or even should have, so the smallest thing part is demonstratably an exageration. But then, so is a lot of Anders' dialogue in general- once he grips on a legitimate grievance he tosses accuracy away for impact, and so begins to blow it out of proportion and ignore mitigations. Take that previously quoted dialogue exchange between him and Bethany, in which he claims that the Templars are making dissidents tranquil to prevent debate. This is complete and utter bull****, because we know of a number of times (and so does he) when mages talk or discuss and press grievances without being made so. That was a case of Anders employing a reducto ad absurdem fallacy in order to score rhetorical points and justify his stance of a life-or-death struggle. When, well, it wasn't.

It's the same misuse of rhetoric that has people going 'the Templars are raping the mages!' rather than 'one templar in particular is raping a small number of people in secret, for fear of being caught and having his ass hanged by the authority.' One implies a huge systemic trend, and the other points out that not only is it an outlier, it's an outlier that would be punished by its own group if his deviance was caught.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 janvier 2014 - 06:32 .

[dragonflight288]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Your proof is Merrill addressing that Audacity taught her blood magic? Which I already addressed previously? I guess you must love telling me what I already know then. 

Proof? No its merely the actual game to address the claim that all her connect with the demon was merely about the magic.

Did you miss the fact she addressed that the Demon spoke of the creation of the Mirror, Told her about the repairing process and history of the Mirror?

Unless if that information was dropped for free, she struck a bargain and considering it was a demon of Pride its likely she had to strike deal after deal to learn what she needed to know. Unless if you think the demon took her in as a charity case and decided to help her out as a freebie. 

This was addressed in Merrill's short story. Audacity said it was there during the creation of the Eluvian; no bargain was struck, and no one makes such a claim throughout the narrative of Kirkwall. Audacity isn't even in the Fade to wield any real power; it is trapped, and as the short story points out, harmless because he's encased inside a totem by ancient magic. Even the developers stated that Merrill was building the Eluvian from her own research.

As a Merrill lover, I actually kind of have to disagree with you on only one point.

Audacity was still dangerous, minutely, but still. He was able to influence and interject his thoughts on Merrill and Merethari in the short story, and they both recognized him as a demon and went to investigate. They found that the closer they got, the more powerful his influence was.

This actually supports your debate here for the following.

After Merrill left Sundermount with the shard and started building the eluvian herself, Audacity was still stuck in the statue on Sundermount. There was no longer any proximity between him and Merrill, so Merrill was no longer under his influence.

Merethari, on the other hand, had stayed on Sundermount....

[Danny Boy 7]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote....

Whether it was the process of constructing her mirror or the usage of blood magic or not is irrelevant it does bring it past the point of mere conjecture. So in her research she even admits that she may have been corrupted, for the good or her people or no and i will parapraise Meredith here.

Merrill doesn't say she's corrupted.

Master Warder Z wrote...

"Mages fall pray to demons regardless of noble intention." 

And in her case? I think she did.

While the facts tell a different story entirely. Merrill was constructing the Eluvian based on her own research, not through Audacity. Audacity provided blood magic; that's it. The entire point of seeking out Audacity in Act III is that she exhausted all the alternatives, and she wanted to speak to Audacity, who was trapped inside a totem. Doing something you disagree with doesn't make Merrill corrupt.

Not that I think Merrill is corrupt, stupid or any other unflattering description, but it's not like she hasn't fallen prey to a demon before. She actually betrayed Hawke (along with most of the other companions, so please don't think I'm singling her out) during the Night Terror's quest so while reconstructing the Eluvian is certainly not a reason one could call her corrupt, her willingness to deal with demons does make it a little hard to call her incorruptible.

Dealing with a trapped demon, questionable, but relatively safe. Dealing with a demon, not trapped, ehhh not for lack of a better term, ideal.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Merril is blind fool everyone keep telling her that dealing with demons will end badly with tears and gnashing teeth but no "im so intelligent and powerful" (yeah my ***) i  have nothing against blood magic she is right about that but trying outsmart something that can read you like a book is bad idea well as far only warden was able to do that to that point... 

On other hand merril is also mooron because she tried play with mirror that killed her friend and almost did it with second well not killed tainted him to become ghoul girl is far too stupid to deal with such things and it will be her ultimate doom.


It is shame that only 3 blood mages are somehow decent (jowan,merril and alain) and every of them is an idiot.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 05 janvier 2014 - 10:02 .