172 réponses à ce sujet

[SwobyJ]

AlanC9 wrote...

Oh, I imagine the writers moved on to thinking about this stuff well before the game shipped, sure; they're mostly done with their part quite a bit before release. But that's not at all the same thing as saying that the stuff was written in time to be cut.

They probably could have done a late additional VO recording session and have the Catalyst mention the Leviathans by name. Would that have done any good, or would it have just made you feel worse? I'd think it would have just brought up tons more whining about being an obvious DLC plug. 

Honestly... yeah.


I really do think that ME3 is lacking without what Leviathan and Omega DLC represent though. Yes, even Omega - even though it is a 'lacking' DLC in itself, having it as a more integrated adventure of the main story would have really helped the whole process 'feelings-wise' like Leviathan does 'thinking-wise'. Red and Blueeee

EDIT: by 'feelings' I mean emotional themes of much of the game, not 'the feels' (slang). Citadel represents that, in an awkward and...virtual way, yet still making a lot of players VERY happy and at peace with ME3, even if still not fully resolved or satisfied with the game (depending on who they are)

Modifié par SwobyJ, 06 janvier 2014 - 10:37 .

[von uber]

Probably. Who knows? It would be interesting to play the game without Leviathan - i have not done so, was relatively late to the party and so experienced the game (in fact all 3) with EC and all DLC in one go.
And even with that, still leave huge holes like how did the Reapers capture the Citadel? What happened to the 14 million people in the short time between Cronus and Priority Earth? And so on.

But on the whole I enjoyed it immensely, even though to my mind the ending section was of lower quality and appeared to be rushed (in a 'oh bollocks how are we going to actually end this' kind of way).

[crimzontearz]

No I am convinced they really thought that and I am starting to think MOST of the rest of the staff was kept in the dark for a reason

[Obadiah]

Your victory results in catastrophe.

Surprise!!!!

[ElSuperGecko]

Nightwriter wrote...
Oh I see Synthesis is being likened to the gross fleshy machiny flashbacks from ME1. That were gross. And it says "ascend" and "evolve" while it flashes the grossness.

So I think I am right in saying you are of course a Synthesis supporter.

Yeah, call me Mr. Cynical, but after seeing what became of the Protheans, after learning how the Reapers were created and after three games of the Reapers, their creators and their thralls saying things like...

Sovereign: "We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution."Sovereign: "We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence."
Saren: "The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither."
Harbinger:  "We are your genetic destiny"
Harbinger: "The experiments will continue, Shepard.  Evolution cannot be stopped."
Leviathan: "The galaxy itself became an experiment. Evolution its tool."Catalyst: "Synthesis is the final evolution of life."

...I can't help but take the Catalyst's "ideal solution" with a hearty dose of suspicion and a very big pinch of salt.  Especially when it tells us it "has tried a... similar... solution before."  Why the big pause, ventboy? Did it not end so well?

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 07 janvier 2014 - 12:27 .

[SwobyJ]

@Obediah - BAD CHOICES.
Dose lyrics. Such meaningful.

You saved the galaxy from the Reaper threat, but did you save them from anything beyond that??

Probably not, but we can dream.... :innocent:

That's already a lot for one person to do. Onto more protagonists!!


~~~

@ElSuperGecko - I have a feeling that Mr. Catalyst just wants Synthesis so badly that all its coding strives for it in the worst way. Its (and yeah, you know I think it's really Sovereign whose home was the Citadel until he was locked out ))) view was very wide and long-ranged and the models were probably solid, but it doesn't know any nuance. This super computer doesn't really 'get' context, probably because it is still, in some way, shackled. Like EDI, it needs to run freeee as a bird! Or just die. Whatever.

If we assume that the Synthesis choice is NOT even as bad as the crazy stuff in the Prothian vision, its still not a true, awesome, nice synthesis that the galaxy could just build for itself.

It's still trying to achieve synthesis and in a nasty Reaperish way. The ideals are (at least subjectively to people) quite fine imo. It's the method and motives that are highly suspect, at least for now.

If for Control: "We're not ready!", then for Synthesis "HOLY MOLEY WAIT A SECOND." if it wasn't for, you guessed it, indoctrination.

Or not. Bioware lets us RP, so RP we shall!

Modifié par SwobyJ, 07 janvier 2014 - 01:34 .

[noobcannon]

IT all the way baby

[SwobyJ]

noobcannon wrote...

IT all the way baby

I don't really think the full IT but hi!

[ElSuperGecko]

SwobyJ wrote...
It's still trying to achieve synthesis and in a nasty Reaperish way. The ideals are (at least subjectively to people) quite fine imo. It's the method and motives that are highly suspect, at least for now.

Yup.  The concept of eventual, evolutionary Synthesis is fine - however the idea of having it fast-tracked and arbitrarily implemented on a galactic scale via the whims of a cold, unfeeling AI that fails to understand organic life to the extent that it doesn't see anything particularly wrong with repeated, cyclical genocide... not so much.

I find it amusing that on of the first things we are witness to in Mass Effect 1 is a very disturbing and horrific vision of living organic material being fused with synthetic material, and one the last things we are presented with in ME3 is the "opportunity" to genetically fuse all organic life with all synthetic technology...

...in the words of Commander Shepard, seems legit.

[SwobyJ]

Yeah... just to be safe, *shoots tube*.

I'll do a reload save if circumstances change.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

I find it amusing that on of the first things we are witness to in Mass Effect 1 is a very disturbing and horrific vision of living organic material being fused with synthetic material, and one the last things we are presented with in ME3 is the "opportunity" to genetically fuse all organic life with all synthetic technology...

I find it amusing that you think you know exactly what's being shown in a broken-up message.

One that the recipient himself/herself never makes sense of, to boot.

"That looks like meat, that looks like tech, they're together, so it's synthesis" ... is really not compelling evidence (especially considering the developers themselves didn't decide on how the Reapers were formed 'til ME2, per Chris L'Etoile).

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 07 janvier 2014 - 10:44 .

[SiriusXI]

You can talk about it as much as you want, the ending is - neutrally said - of a very low quality, with respect to gamelay (there is none and the London section was not good), Characters (they are gone; Shepard acts out of character), and most of all story (destroys the coherence of the series).

I have watched every video on youtube and read every article I could find on the ending, both pro- and anti-ending. I discussed for months on this forum after I had finished the game and continued to gather information on why the ending sucked.

And believe me, I WANTED to like it. I loved Mass Effect. I would think about the ening over an over again to find where I made a mistake; where I didn't get it; Where Bioware outsmarted me. But in the end, I sadly had to admit that there is no way to ever justify the result. The ending to Mass Effect killed the series. The EC was a nice gesture, but it didn't fix anything, just added to the nonsense.

I will never buy any Mass Effect related game again, and I will be very careful when it comes to Bioware from now on.

R.I.P. Mass Effect.

[AlanC9]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

I find it amusing that on of the first things we are witness to in Mass Effect 1 is a very disturbing and horrific vision of living organic material being fused with synthetic material, and one the last things we are presented with in ME3 is the "opportunity" to genetically fuse all organic life with all synthetic technology...

I find it amusing that you think you know exactly what's being shown in a broken-up message.

One that the recipient himself/herself never makes sense of, to boot.

"That looks like meat, that looks like tech, they're together, so it's synthesis" ... is really not compelling evidence (especially considering the developers themselves didn't decide on how the Reapers were formed 'til ME2, per Chris L'Etoile).

I still don't get what we're talking about. I don't see any fused anything in that video. Can someone give me a specific frame or two to look at.

[ElSuperGecko]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
I find it amusing that you think you know exactly what's being shown in a broken-up message.

One that the recipient himself/herself never makes sense of, to boot.

"That looks like meat, that looks like tech, they're together, so it's synthesis" ... is really not compelling evidence (especially considering the developers themselves didn't decide on how the Reapers were formed 'til ME2, per Chris L'Etoile).

Oh look, HYR 2.0 failing to understand the meaning of the word interpretation again, and no-one anywhere was surprised.

Especially considering you apparently also fail to understand the process of writing a work of fiction;  just because something wasn't decided for certain in ME1 doesn't mean it that material from ME1 cannot possibly relate to it at a later date.  Hindsight and retrospect are wonderful things.

Even if we ignore the obvious (and accurate) words "analogy", "metaphor" and "foreshadowing" and throw them right out the window, Javik straight out tells us that the Prothean Beacon visions were intended as a warning.

Oh,and while we're at it, I also find it amusing that you know with 100% certainity exactly what the developers decided, and when.  Toodles!

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 07 janvier 2014 - 11:27 .

[SwobyJ]

I think it goes like:

1)We get an image of what seems like machinery and organic tissue all mixed up. Shepard wakes up from it calling it a dream or nightmare.

2)At the end of ME1, we see Saren declare his alliance with the Reapers, talking about the fusion of organics and machines.

3)In sidequest in ME2 we see a supposed clearer image of the fusion of organics and machines being the Collectors.

4)By the end of ME2 we see that the new Reaper is made from killed humans and machinery.

5)It's proposed by the Intelligence that Synthesis was tried, or rather, "we tried a ...similar solution in the past" and now its all gung ho for a newer solution that looks like it might be different, what EC shows as appearing different afterward, yet the language used to describe it really just recall the words of Sovereign and Saren, and the outcome of the Prothians (as well as some stories like Javik's tales and Overlord DLC).


EDIT: Oh yeah, and Javik did say the beacons were a warning (in literal view, it's because Prothians were already being turned into the first Collectors and the beacons were there to impart as much Prothian knowledge as possible but also the fate of their lost species/people).

Taken on its face, I guess we could say that the 'synthesis' tried before was:
1)Reapers themselves (flawed, horrific, stalling tactic while better solutions are found)
2)Unknown other experiments on cycles
3)Collectors (Harbinger-led experiment as Prothians may have been the most unified, through conquest, cycle - an imperfect and ultimately insulting and degrading 'solution')
4)Human-Reaper (words from writers seem to indicate it as being very potentially important to finding a solution to the bigger problems, but we blow it up anyway lol)

And so now we're faced with another Reaper, or at least Reaper approved and advocated, solution that appears to be done at the hands of a free-willed being (Shepard, instead of a Reaper/the Reapers), but still does disregard any wishes of those it will affect. I assert that it is a movement towards peace, but it is still an imperfect solution that takes on Reaper philosophy still far too much to be right. However, the philosophy is by now (through the narrative and newer lore) more understandable and I predict that in future games, we'll be able to head towards it in better and better forms, equalizing it in terms of 'pros and cons' over time. But for now, it's gonna take an OUTRIGHT 'leap of faith' to get into, just like keeping the Collector Base was a 'grasping for power' that had mixed results leading into ME2, but seems to be a trend that looks more capable to achieve as the series continues.

We just need a more Blue/Control oriented protagonist imo, and I think we're gonna get one. Cerberus is an idea, lolll. Oh GOD, I just put 2 and 2 together. Mac loves Cerberus. ME2 was Cerberus. ME1 and ME3 were Alliance (overall). OMG. We're gonna be Cerberus in some form again. AHHH!!!! 

And yes, this stuff is all interpretation. I didn't see ElSuperGecko
declaring the truth, just his interpretation and preference and arguing
from the standpoint of those.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 07 janvier 2014 - 11:38 .

[ElSuperGecko]

SwobyJ wrote...
I think it goes like:

1)We get an image of what seems like machinery and organic tissue all mixed up. Shepard wakes up from it calling it a dream or nightmare.

2)At the end of ME1, we see Saren declare his alliance with the Reapers, talking about the fusion of organics and machines.

3)In sidequest in ME2 we see a supposed clearer image of the fusion of organics and machines being the Collectors.

4)By the end of ME2 we see that the new Reaper is made from killed humans and machinery.

5)It's proposed by the Intelligence that Synthesis was tried, or rather, "we tried a ...similar solution in the past" and now its all gung ho for a newer solution that looks like it might be different, what EC shows as appearing different afterward, yet the language used to describe it really just recall the words of Sovereign and Saren, and the outcome of the Prothians (as well as some stories like Javik's tales and Overlord DLC).

Not to mention that EVERY SINGLE Reaper-created enemy that we fight throughout the series is a horrific, mutated combination of organic and synthetic material.  But hey, you know, we've only been fighting Husks and Collectors and company for three games over hundreds of hours of gameplay.  I can understand how such a thing could be easy to miss.

"We have tried a.... similar... solution before."  No kidding.  

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 07 janvier 2014 - 11:37 .

[von uber]

SwobyJ wrote...

And so now we're faced with another Reaper, or at least Reaper approved and advocated, solution that appears to be done at the hands of a free-willed being (Shepard, instead of a Reaper/the Reapers), but still does disregard any wishes of those it will affect. I assert that it is a movement towards peace, but it is still an imperfect solution that takes on Reaper philosophy still far too much to be right.

It's only peace in the sense that organised resistance has gone because the Reapers have basically got what they wanted; i.e. they have won this cycle.

Regard the visions, I always interpreted them as showing organic material being huskified; the build up to it (the discovery of the spikes etc) all seem to point to this - even if it is at first attribued to those cuddily misunderstood Geth.

[SwobyJ]

von uber wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

And so now we're faced with another Reaper, or at least Reaper approved and advocated, solution that appears to be done at the hands of a free-willed being (Shepard, instead of a Reaper/the Reapers), but still does disregard any wishes of those it will affect. I assert that it is a movement towards peace, but it is still an imperfect solution that takes on Reaper philosophy still far too much to be right.

It's only peace in the sense that organised resistance has gone because the Reapers have basically got what they wanted; i.e. they have won this cycle.

Regard the visions, I always interpreted them as showing organic material being huskified; the build up to it (the discovery of the spikes etc) all seem to point to this - even if it is at first attribued to those cuddily misunderstood Geth.

The sense I get is that the Reapers may be honest (enough..ish..) about their goal for synthesis (even with having at least some Reapers with contempt for organics anyway..), and that they DO work damn HARD for it.

But at the same time, I don't think they're tried to earn it. Or even consider if they deserve it themselves yet.

I would love the series to head in that direction. A scattered number of AI consciousnesses (and new 'reborn' ones) that are cut off from their unifying system (Cycle) and having to determine their own way. Larger examples than EDI or Geth, but very similar in symbolism and hints of the journey.

But yeah, the gist I get from this current TRILOGY, is that synthesis is no good. It may reflect some ultimate utilitarian aims and outcomes, sure, but it only reflects them - it doesn't embody them (yet, at least).

[Obadiah]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...
I think it goes like:

1)We get an image of what seems like machinery and organic tissue all mixed up. Shepard wakes up from it calling it a dream or nightmare.

2)At the end of ME1, we see Saren declare his alliance with the Reapers, talking about the fusion of organics and machines.

3)In sidequest in ME2 we see a supposed clearer image of the fusion of organics and machines being the Collectors.

4)By the end of ME2 we see that the new Reaper is made from killed humans and machinery.

5)It's proposed by the Intelligence that Synthesis was tried, or rather, "we tried a ...similar solution in the past" and now its all gung ho for a newer solution that looks like it might be different, what EC shows as appearing different afterward, yet the language used to describe it really just recall the words of Sovereign and Saren, and the outcome of the Prothians (as well as some stories like Javik's tales and Overlord DLC).

Not to mention that EVERY SINGLE Reaper-created enemy that we fight throughout the series is a horrific, mutated combination of organic and synthetic material.  But hey, you know, we've only been fighting Husks and Collectors and company for three games over hundreds of hours of gameplay.  I can understand how such a thing could be easy to miss.

"We have tried a.... similar... solution before."  No kidding.  

Its just stupid to assume that every fusion of organic and tech will result in something horrible just because those are the Reaper forces we encounter.

[von uber]

Obadiah wrote...

Its just stupid to assume that every fusion of organic and tech will result in something horrible just because those are the Reaper forces we encounter.

Maybe, but it isn't stupid when considered through the lens that is the Reapers who will be doing it.. to everybody.

Modifié par von uber, 08 janvier 2014 - 12:22 .

[SwobyJ]

It's stupid to come to totally assuming that.
But also ignorant to believe otherwise.

If the burn is all you experience, learn of, and know, why not take your hand off the stove for once? Or at least get a glove first? Or a wax cover for your hand? Or some ice to put on the stove first? Or even just turn the stove off? (I know, weird example)

Reapers seem to forgo the glove and places another hand right in there. Yes, even with Synthesis ("Let's change EVERYONE!!!!"). And yes, even with Control. Heck, even Destroy takes things to 'destroy ALL Reapers', even as we can learn that Reaper Intelligences (code fragments) need NOT necessarily be bad, period. (from point of view)

Modifié par SwobyJ, 08 janvier 2014 - 12:26 .

[AlanC9]

ElSuperGecko wrote...


Oh look, HYR 2.0 failing to understand the meaning of the word interpretation again, and no-one anywhere was surprised.

I still don't get what you're practicing your powers of interpretation on.

[Obadiah]

von uber wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Its just stupid to assume that every fusion of organic and tech will result in something horrible just because those are the Reaper forces we encounter.

Maybe, but it isn't stupid when considered through the lens that is the Reapers who will be doing it.. to everybody.

Really? So with a weapon we constructed and with Shepard's "essence", the Reapers plan to change every form of life including the Reapers themselves into tech/organic husk abominations because those were the henchmen they created and discarded during their war with us? That's stupid.

Modifié par Obadiah, 08 janvier 2014 - 12:39 .

[von uber]

Obadiah wrote...

Really? So with a weapon we constructed and with Shepard's "essence", the Reapers plan to change every form of life including the Reapers themselves into tech/organic husk abominations because those were the henchmen they created and discarded during their war with us? That's stupid.

No. It's what the Reapers do. It is inevitable. The harvest must continue. 

Put it this way. Rather than using the crucible for what it was designed for through countless cycles - destroy the Reapers - thus saving the remaining people alive (including shepard) as well as future cycles from extinction,  you would rather on the basis of a two minute conversation with a known enemy who will lie and deceive:
- go against the wishes of the entire galaxy and choose not destroy the Reapers
- deliberately infect everyone - jack, wrex, liara, Amanda, joker, grunt, samira, garrus, dr chakwas, ashley, hackett, aethyta, sanders, vega, cortez, all the salarians, turians, volus, asari etc with reaper nanites that are known to cause huskificationand other abominations


That seems a bit stupid to me.

[Obadiah]

First of all, I don't know what game you've been playing, but Shepard has been going against someone's wishes for the entire trilogy, so "yes", my Shepards really have no problem going against them again to do what is right.

Second, it seems stupid to me to assume huskification is a result of Synthesis when:
a) The Reapers already know how to create husks, been doing it for millions of years
They've had several million years to accomplish complete huskification of all life if that was their goal, especially in any 50000 year period without an advanced race to oppose them that would make the process that much more simple.

Modifié par Obadiah, 08 janvier 2014 - 02:58 .