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[Bleachrude]

 So...one of the commong arguments against the chantry is that it is responsible for the mage hate in Thedas...but assuming that there was no actual chantry created ater Andraste's death, how do you counter Tevinter?

Even with the Chantry opposing them, Tevinter went back to its bad old ways (and the lore indicates this was because the chantry was actually TOO lenient in how it treated the magisters). Indeed,  Tevinter started to try and take back its former colonies and only by the Chantry marshalling exalted marches were they able to force Tevinter back.

So, if there is no Chantry, how exactly do you stop Tevinter before the quanari appear? As an aside, if the Chantry is responsible for the fear of mages in Thedas, how do you explain the treatment of mages by the quanari which have no Chantry to be inluenced in how they treat mages.

[Gorkanus]

Bleachrude wrote...

 So...one of the commong arguments against the chantry is that it is responsible for the mage hate in Thedas...but assuming that there was no actual chantry created ater Andraste's death, how do you counter Tevinter?

Even with the Chantry opposing them, Tevinter went back to its bad old ways (and the lore indicates this was because the chantry was actually TOO lenient in how it treated the magisters). Indeed,  Tevinter started to try and take back its former colonies and only by the Chantry marshalling exalted marches were they able to force Tevinter back.

So, if there is no Chantry, how exactly do you stop Tevinter before the quanari appear? As an aside, if the Chantry is responsible for the fear of mages in Thedas, how do you explain the treatment of mages by the quanari which have no Chantry to be inluenced in how they treat mages.

by smacking monachs on the head, it wasnt the Chantry who stopped them,it was Military power,You need Army to fight it,even chantry didnt lead war against Tevenvinter With Faith but with fire and steel.

[LobselVith8]

Bleachrude wrote...

 So...one of the commong arguments against the chantry is that it is responsible for the mage hate in Thedas...but assuming that there was no actual chantry created ater Andraste's death, how do you counter Tevinter?

People address that the religious teachings of the Andrastian Chantry, from blaming mages for the Blights and the darkspawn to referring to mages as cursed, play a role in how Andrastians perceive mages.

Bleachrude wrote...

Even with the Chantry opposing them, Tevinter went back to its bad old ways (and the lore indicates this was because the chantry was actually TOO lenient in how it treated the magisters). Indeed,  Tevinter started to try and take back its former colonies and only by the Chantry marshalling exalted marches were they able to force Tevinter back.

So, if there is no Chantry, how exactly do you stop Tevinter before the quanari appear? As an aside, if the Chantry is responsible for the fear of mages in Thedas, how do you explain the treatment of mages by the quanari which have no Chantry to be inluenced in how they treat mages. 

The Avvar, the Chasind, the Rivaini, and the Dalish demonstrate that people don't automatically hate mages for having magical ability.

[Wulfram]

I don't think the Chantry has much to do with countering Tevinter. It was more about filling the vacuum left by Tevinter's attack, and was only created 170 years after Andraste's death.

The low standing of mages in (white) Chantry lands seems to have bolstered Tevinter power by encouraging mages to defect to them.

[Magdalena11]

I think saying the rise of the chantry was what brought about the downfall of Tevinter is a bit like putting the cart before the horse. I think it was because of Andraste's armies defeating Tevinter her beliefs rose in importance and even Tevinter had to eventually accept the chantry.

I think differentiation needs to be made from Andraste's original Exalted March and the ones that came after the chantry was established.  If she hadn't had her own religion she would have still rounded up allies and overthrown Tevinter.  Now that the chantry has its own concerns it's going to be up to the inquisitor's forces to determine where power and influence come from.

Modifié par Magdalena11, 05 janvier 2014 - 06:30 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Avvar, the Chasind, the Rivaini, and the Dalish demonstrate that people don't automatically hate mages for having magical ability.

They do fear their power.
And unless it escapes you, all of those are nomadic, primitive cultures WHERE MAGES RULE. Not that it helps, given how mages seems to bring them more trouble (Zathrian, Methanari, Rivian circle)

[Bleachrude]

So how exactly do you STOP Tevinter from re-conquering the other lands if there is no Chantry standing against them...The lore mentions that the Tevinters did try to reconquer various lands after the break with the white chantry and it was various exalted marches that thre them back.

Furthermore, it still doesn't explain why the quanari ear mages..they had no experience with the chantry until the attack on Tevinter.

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Avvar, the Chasind, the Rivaini, and the Dalish demonstrate that people don't automatically hate mages for having magical ability.

They do fear their power.
And unless it escapes you, all of those are nomadic, primitive cultures WHERE MAGES RULE. Not that it helps, given how mages seems to bring them more trouble (Zathrian, Methanari, Rivian circle)

In what way do any of those groups fear mages?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well, I'm generally a pro-Chantry person but Tevinter doesn't have anywhere close to the might it once had. Starkhaven was the only place that the Imperium ever conquered that the Chantry pushed them back from and even in those places that the Chantry didn't intervene eventually freed themselves from Tevinter rule.

[The Hierophant]

Bleachrude wrote...

So, if there is no Chantry, how exactly do you stop Tevinter before the quanari appear?

It's only an assumption, but without an allied effort to keep Tevinter in check they probably would've recovered enough lost territories, economic and military might to stalemate the Qun.

As an aside, if the Chantry is responsible for the fear of mages in Thedas, how do you explain the treatment of mages by the quanari which have no Chantry to be inluenced in how they treat mages.

Outside of Haven Thedosian societies are either dominated by mages or normal people.

Another assumption, but when taking into account the Qun's views on mages it's possible that their cultural beliefs were formed afterwards, and influenced by their successful rebellion against a mageocracy like the nations of the white divine. Whereas the viewpoints of the majority of the mage dominated societies LobselVith8 mentioned had existed before their interactions with Tevinter.

[Angrywolves]

Bleachrude wrote...

So how exactly do you STOP Tevinter from re-conquering the other lands if there is no Chantry standing against them...The lore mentions that the Tevinters did try to reconquer various lands after the break with the white chantry and it was various exalted marches that thre them back.

Furthermore, it still doesn't explain why the quanari ear mages..they had no experience with the chantry until the attack on Tevinter.

This.
The other countries would have been fractured and unorganized to stop Tevinter militarily without the Exalted Marches.

[Wulfram]

Where's the mention of these defensive Exalted Marches against Tevinter in the lore?  As far as I can get from the wiki, the exalted marches were called based on doctrinal differences, and only lasted 60 years anyway before the 5th blight and then the Qunari made it all kind of irrelevant

I don't really see why Orlais wouldn't have been able to turn them back anyway, and of course in recent times it's the Qunari who have been keeping them busy.

Modifié par Wulfram, 05 janvier 2014 - 07:28 .

[Rotward]

The chantry is a problem because it fails to differentiate between a society of mages that believes it should rule all none-mages, and a kid halfway around the world who happens to share one trait: magic. 

Note that both the qun and the chantry are religions. They create a culture of fear and hate toward mages. Without them there would still be distrust, and perhaps fear, but at least the educated would differentiate between a wynne and a tevinter slaver. 

The most effective way to defeat the imperium would have been replacing it. Create a government that treats mages as people. Punish crimes, otherwise leave them be, give them no special treatment. Whether you treat someone better or worse than those around them, you're giving them special treatment, and that fosters a sense of entitlement in some. 

[The Hierophant]

Wulfram, it's only an assumption but i think it's the threat of war with allied nations that's kept Tevinter in check even before the schism.

I doubt a fledgling Orlais would've repelled a Tevinter invasion without allies like CoM, Chantry, and Templars. Then there's Tevinter's war potential being magnified due to potentially having full access to Orzammar's lyrium trade without the Chantry and CoM reducing their share.

Aside from the Grey Wardens during a blight the Chantry is Thedas' only known unifying force back then.

[Wulfram]

The greatest emperor of Orlais created the Chantry, they were already powerful when the Chantry was found.

I don't think Tevinter was in much shape to expand. Before the Exalted marches were called against them, they were likely busy with internal struggles as the Magisters looked to regain their hold on power

[ames4u]

If the Chantry did not exist, a completely different organisation would've awoken in the aftermath of Tevinter's tyranny. It may not necessarily be or become a religious organisation but it's purpose would be clear; to remove Tevinter from the seat of power or prevent them from gaining it.

But I was under the impression that the ones who drove Tevinter back was not actually part of the Chantry at that point. My knowledge of this lore is probably bungled at this point.

The Chantry came into existance the same way most organisations do; they percieved something that posed a threat and gathered like minded people into it's ranks. Over time, it's ranks became more defined and people were given different 'job's within it's system-one military in shape, the other a spiritual one. A third could be said to be those who govern it and it's offshoots like the Seekers Of Truth. At least, this is my opinion on the subject matter.

Modifié par ames4u, 05 janvier 2014 - 09:00 .

[dragonflight288]

Wulfram wrote...

The greatest emperor of Orlais created the Chantry, they were already powerful when the Chantry was found.

I don't think Tevinter was in much shape to expand. Before the Exalted marches were called against them, they were likely busy with internal struggles as the Magisters looked to regain their hold on power

Not really. Emperor Drakon wanted to bring the lands to the Maker, so he chose one of many Andrastian cults that had sprungup after her death, and together they Exalted Marched all his fellow city-states into forming Orlais, and they then chose this particular Andrastian Cult to be the set standard and it was named the Chantry. (Codex: History of the Chantry)

The magisters had made no headway whatsoever in that time to regain their power because they had lost so much in the rebellions, the blight, and a famine. And by the time they tried making headway, the Qunari had showed up and the Imperium have been in a never-ending war with them since, almost acting as a buffer against the Qunari for the rest of Thedas.

Of course, if they didn't have the Qunari to contend with they could likely take the land away from everyone else again because they have gone through so many Exalted Marches and repelled each and every one of them from the White Chantry.

[Gervaise]

People's original hatred of mages would have stemmed from the fact that for many hundreds of years, mages had ruled over them and kept their power through the use of magic and the religion of the old gods which they controlled. Ordinary people would have viewed them as semi-divine because of this strange power that they had and accepted their rule because they had no alternative. The first blight shattered some of these illusions because they were shown to no longer be invincible and unable to stop the darkspawn. We are told that people were also disillusioned by the failure of the old gods to respond and the fact that one old god apparently turned on them.
This is why when Andraste appeared at the head of an army, people flocked to follow her and her teachings. However, after her death there was something of a power vacuum. Tevinter was too weak to take back the southern lands by force and it would seem there were a number of rulers and various cults of Andraste. People who had been freed of the Tevinter mages rule now had a new situation of mage children growing up in their communities without any guidance. (Previously any mage children would probably have been taken away by the Magisterd as apparently still happens in Tevinter to this day). Some of these mage children may have become prey to demons and abominations appeared, leading to a new mistrust of mages. At some point during this period the Inquisition was formed, which would appear to have been a military cult of Andraste committed to hunting down dangerous magic, heretics and cultists. The fact that it was felt this group was needed and presumably had the support of the common people, would suggest that people generally wished magic to be regulated and mages kept from being a danger.
Finally the Emperor of Orlais consolidated power in the south and formed the Chantry to reflect his particular cult of Andraste. Eventually the Inquisition was reformed into the Templar Order and the Mage Circles were formed under their control.
So it would be true to say that the Chantry was not responsible for all the mage hate in Thedas but they have certainly helped maintain the mistrust of mages. However, every time a mage child goes bonkers and kills someone, it reinforces the common folk's view that mages are dangerous and not to be trusted.
As for the Qun, based on the reaction we get from the Qunari in DA2 and the thinking of the Qunari mage we meet, it would seem that their mistrust is based on demonic possession of mages and the damage that they can do. They seem to have no problem using mage power provided it is under control. Since we know nothing of their history prior to accepting the Qun, there is no way of knowing if mages formerly had their freedom and misused their power or if they were always collared in this way.

[The Hierophant]

Wulfram wrote...

The greatest emperor of Orlais created the Chantry, they were already powerful when the Chantry was found.

I don't think Tevinter was in much shape to expand. Before the Exalted marches were called against them, they were likely busy with internal struggles as the Magisters looked to regain their hold on power

Orlais and it's allies couldn't defeat Tevinter even after the Chantry politically held them back for centuries. Given the hypothetical scenario the op presents you have an unrestrained Tevinter, an untrustworthy Dales who're capable of sacking Orlais' capital and can only be defeated through a united effort, while Orlais lacks the circle mages and templars to counter magic, and the Chantry to call for an Exalted March to save them.

Mind you this hinges on the Dalish not participating in the 2nd Blight and Orlais being forced to recover from their inaction.

[Angrywolves]

Isn't the meeting Arlathan suppose to occur near the time DAI does.That can't be a coincidence if true.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Dales was defeated by the armies of Orlais alone. They were just boosted by the more Orlesians who answered the Divine's call to arms.

The Imperium was steadily loosing all subjugated lands to rebellion or darkspawn by the time the Chantry was founded. They aren't strong enough to be the threat they once were in ancient times.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Dales was defeated by the armies of Orlais alone. They were just boosted by the more Orlesians who answered the Divine's call to arms.

The Imperium was steadily loosing all subjugated lands to rebellion or darkspawn by the time the Chantry was founded. They aren't strong enough to be the threat they once were in ancient times.

Im pretty sure it was more then just Orlesian forces that took part in the war against the dales.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

World of Thedas says that only Orlesian troops took part in the Exalted March of the Dales.

[MisterJB]

Yep, elves are weak.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

In the DA:O game guide book, it mentions a ferelden teyrn that tried to become king & lost thanks to committing too much of his power to the march on the dales.