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[Grieving Natashina]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We don't know whether or not elven lore about their immortality is accurate. The Emerald Knights guarded the border of the Dales and kept people out. I'm not seeing the point in vilifying them for refusing to abandon their culture or their religion.

The point is to villify them because they would rather see the world wither and die, than "lower" themselves to help out the humans with "their" Blight. 

I didn't realize Orlais - the empire that was forcibly converting and conquering it's neighbors to create a society under the worship of the Maker, and an empire that was prevented from invading the Free Marches due to Drakon's problems with the Dales - counted as "the world".

They did not help ANY nation during the Blight. THAT count as the world.

I don't always agree with you, but I do in this case.  Mostly. 

Of course, we need to remember that Loghain blocked the Wardens from Orlais and apparently sent a rather nasty message back to the Empress.  In the case of the Blight, Loghain's actions as well as Orlais inaction caused Orlais to stay out of the Blight.

[Rotward]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
They already do diferentiate.

No, they don't. 

But the fact remains that both Wynne and a tevinter magister and Connor are all still walking bombs that may or may not go off.

It won't work, because mages are fundamentally different. One-size-fits-all won't work.

Of the three or four mages we've had close contact with that were never part of the circle, but still had training, none of them were posessed. Morrigan showed no risk, nor did bethany, nor hawk if you played mage-hawk. Merrill was a blood mage, but she was never posessed. When she was at risk of posession, she brought someone along to cut her down, just in case. 

Posession does not seem to be an issue in tevinter. Just putting that out there. 

Connor lacked training, and when placed in a high risk situation, lost control. Clearly mages without training can't be trusted, but honestly, how's that different than letting a kid have a loaded gun? The solution isn't to imprison them, it's to teach them safe use. If the gun can be taken away, great, but not if you have to cut off their hand to get it. 

Modifié par Rotward, 06 janvier 2014 - 04:02 .

[LobselVith8]

Threat300 wrote...

The dalish origin can show 3 humans getting murdered for the crime of being in the wrong place at the wrong time,

Who, if spared by the two Dalish characters they encounter, instigate humans from a nearby village to attack the Dalish clan.

Threat300 wrote...

they see city elves as inferior going so far as saying only dalish are true elves

Some city elves hold demeaning views of the Dalish, as you should know from the City Elf Origin. Trying to paint all the Dalish in the same light is ludicrous. The historical Aveline was raised by a Dalish clan. The Sabrae clan welcomed Pol, and defended Feynriel from the templars. Ariane talks about her clan accepting an elf that came to them from the Circle of Magi.

Threat300 wrote...

& see themselves as superior beings that were robbed of their immortality by vermin "shems"

They believe they were immortal once, and lost their immortality due to contact with humans from Tevinter. Andrastians think non-humans are farther away from the Maker. I'm not seeing the point in painting the Dalish as villainous here.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't see why you think he's embellishing when he's speaking to an elven protagonist who has faced human racism.

He certainly isn't saying the complete truth, which is abundantly clear throughout both games.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And could the assumption that Dalish Clans kills humans who wander too close, be because that IT IS IN THE LORE? I think that is why.

It's not in the lore that all the Dalish clans kill humans who get to close, or even that most do. It's addressed they usually avoid human settlements.

"I took the road north from Val Royeaux toward Nevarra with a merchant caravan. A scant two days past the Orlesian border, we were beset by bandits. They struck without warning from the cover of the trees, hammering our wagons with arrows, killing most of the caravan guards instantly. The few who survived the arrow storm drew their blades and charged into the trees after our attackers. We heard screams muffled by the forest, and then nothing more of those men.

After a long silence, the bandits appeared. Elves covered in tattoos and dressed in hides, they looted all the supplies and valuables they could carry from the merchants and disappeared back into the trees.

These, I was informed later, were the Dalish, the wild elves who lurk in the wilderness on the fringes of settled lands, preying upon travelers and isolated farmers. These wild elves have reverted to the worship of their false gods and are rumored to practice their own form of magic, rejecting all human society.

--From In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of A Chantry Scholar, by Brother Genitivi"

NOPE nothing in the lore about Dalish killing humans completely unprovoked. Nope, we have dismissed those dreadful rumors. Move along please. Dalish can do no wrong.
.......

[EmperorSahlertz]

Starsyn wrote...
I don't always agree with you, but I do in this case.  Mostly. 

Of course, we need to remember that Loghain blocked the Wardens from Orlais and apparently sent a rather nasty message back to the Empress.  In the case of the Blight, Loghain's actions as well as Orlais inaction caused Orlais to stay out of the Blight.

DIfferent circumstances. Orlais did not plan to sit out the entire Blight and let the rest of the world handle it. As a matter of fact, it seems they had every intention to fight it with everything they got. They just ahd no wish to waste forces fighting Ferelden at the same time.

The Dalish just didn't wish to help the humans.

So as I said differnet circumstances.

[LobselVith8]

Threat300 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I didn't realize Orlais - the empire that was forcibly converting and conquering it's neighbors to create a society under the worship of the Maker, and an empire that was prevented from invading the Free Marches due to Drakon's problems with the Dales - counted as "the world".

It could have been Ferelden or Rivain getting attacked by darkspawn & the dales wouldn't have helped simply because they were humans.

And yet, the Dalish signed a treaty to aid the Wardens against a Blight, despite having no reason to be coerced into doing so.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Dalish ain't 100% at fault but make peaceful relations harder by attacking humans & seeing them as inferior beings that took their immortality away

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's not in the lore that all the Dalish clans kill humans who get to close, or even that most do. It's addressed they usually avoid human settlements.

NOPE nothing in the lore about Dalish killing humans completely unprovoked. Nope, we have dismissed those dreadful rumors. Move along please. Dalish can do no wrong.
.......

Let me know when you're actually going to respond to what I actually stated.

And I find it endlessly amusing that you, of all people, would criticize me for defending a specific group from Thedas.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I didn't realize Orlais - the empire that was forcibly converting and conquering it's neighbors to create a society under the worship of the Maker, and an empire that was prevented from invading the Free Marches due to Drakon's problems with the Dales - counted as "the world".

It could have been Ferelden or Rivain getting attacked by darkspawn & the dales wouldn't have helped simply because they were humans.

And yet, the Dalish signed a treaty to aid the Wardens against a Blight, despite having no reason to be coerced into doing so.

Signed the treaties but still refused to help during the 2nd blight.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Starsyn wrote...
I don't always agree with you, but I do in this case.  Mostly. 

Of course, we need to remember that Loghain blocked the Wardens from Orlais and apparently sent a rather nasty message back to the Empress.  In the case of the Blight, Loghain's actions as well as Orlais inaction caused Orlais to stay out of the Blight.

DIfferent circumstances. Orlais did not plan to sit out the entire Blight and let the rest of the world handle it. As a matter of fact, it seems they had every intention to fight it with everything they got. They just ahd no wish to waste forces fighting Ferelden at the same time.

The Dalish just didn't wish to help the humans.

So as I said differnet circumstances. 

They didn't help Orlais, who seemed to be an enemy at the time. There's a difference.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's not in the lore that all the Dalish clans kill humans who get to close, or even that most do. It's addressed they usually avoid human settlements.

NOPE nothing in the lore about Dalish killing humans completely unprovoked. Nope, we have dismissed those dreadful rumors. Move along please. Dalish can do no wrong.
.......

Let me know when you're actually going to respond to what I actually stated.

And I find it endlessly amusing that you, of all people, would criticize me for defending a specific group from Thedas.

All Dalish Clans don't kill humans, just as all humans don't hate Elves. Funny how individuals (both persons and organizations/clans) can be different huh?

And I criticize your "defense" of the Dalish, because you don't stick to empirical proof and reasoning, but rather the fact that you favor the Dalish. Had you build up an actual defense of the Dalish based entirely on what we know, and reliable sources, then that would be just fine. Once you start to favor sources, JUST because they are Dalish, then that is where the problems start arising.

[LobselVith8]

Threat300 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And yet, the Dalish signed a treaty to aid the Wardens against a Blight, despite having no reason to be coerced into doing so.

Signed the treaties but still refused to help during the 2nd blight.

The Dalish clans signed the treaty, not the elves of the nation of the Dales.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 06 janvier 2014 - 04:11 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Starsyn wrote...
I don't always agree with you, but I do in this case.  Mostly. 

Of course, we need to remember that Loghain blocked the Wardens from Orlais and apparently sent a rather nasty message back to the Empress.  In the case of the Blight, Loghain's actions as well as Orlais inaction caused Orlais to stay out of the Blight.

DIfferent circumstances. Orlais did not plan to sit out the entire Blight and let the rest of the world handle it. As a matter of fact, it seems they had every intention to fight it with everything they got. They just ahd no wish to waste forces fighting Ferelden at the same time.

The Dalish just didn't wish to help the humans.

So as I said differnet circumstances. 

They didn't help Orlais, who seemed to be an enemy at the time. There's a difference.

h, please tell me EXACTLY which other nations they helped during the Blight?

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Starsyn wrote...
I don't always agree with you, but I do in this case.  Mostly. 

Of course, we need to remember that Loghain blocked the Wardens from Orlais and apparently sent a rather nasty message back to the Empress.  In the case of the Blight, Loghain's actions as well as Orlais inaction caused Orlais to stay out of the Blight.

DIfferent circumstances. Orlais did not plan to sit out the entire Blight and let the rest of the world handle it. As a matter of fact, it seems they had every intention to fight it with everything they got. They just ahd no wish to waste forces fighting Ferelden at the same time.

The Dalish just didn't wish to help the humans.

So as I said differnet circumstances. 

They didn't help Orlais, who seemed to be an enemy at the time. There's a difference.

The dales were neutral & didn't help at all during the 2nd blight

[EmperorSahlertz]

MasterScribe wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Starsyn wrote...
I don't always agree with you, but I do in this case.  Mostly. 

Of course, we need to remember that Loghain blocked the Wardens from Orlais and apparently sent a rather nasty message back to the Empress.  In the case of the Blight, Loghain's actions as well as Orlais inaction caused Orlais to stay out of the Blight.

DIfferent circumstances. Orlais did not plan to sit out the entire Blight and let the rest of the world handle it. As a matter of fact, it seems they had every intention to fight it with everything they got. They just ahd no wish to waste forces fighting Ferelden at the same time.

The Dalish just didn't wish to help the humans.

So as I said differnet circumstances. 

They didn't help Orlais, who seemed to be an enemy at the time. There's a difference.

The dales were neutral & didn't help at all during the 2nd blight

An elf ended the Fourth Blight.

A Grey Warden who happened to be an Elf ended the Fourth Blight. There is a significant difference.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Let me know when you're actually going to respond to what I actually stated.

And I find it endlessly amusing that you, of all people, would criticize me for defending a specific group from Thedas.

All Dalish Clans don't kill humans, just as all humans don't hate Elves. Funny how individuals (both persons and organizations/clans) can be different huh?

And yet, human society is where elves can be killed en mass in purges, as we saw with the massacre at the orphanage in the Alienage, or where women can be abducted in broad daylight without anyone seeming to care. The idea that the racism against elves isn't that prevalent in society simply doesn't hold up. It's the reason why Kelder was able to murder elven children in Kirkwall, only to continually get released from prison to murder again and again.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And I criticize your "defense" of the Dalish, because you don't stick to empirical proof and reasoning, but rather the fact that you favor the Dalish. Had you build up an actual defense of the Dalish based entirely on what we know, and reliable sources, then that would be just fine. Once you start to favor sources, JUST because they are Dalish, then that is where the problems start arising. 

I address the Dalish have their own historical account of the fall of the Dales; I admitted there are two sides to the story. I point out they were on bad terms with Orlais. Pointing out that Orlais was conquering it's neighbors and converting people isn't up for dispute; it's fact.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They didn't help Orlais, who seemed to be an enemy at the time. There's a difference.

h, please tell me EXACTLY which other nations they helped during the Blight? 

Tell me which nations petitioned the Dales for help. As far as I see from the known facts, their Emerald Knights patrolled the border while an enemy that threatened their sovereignty and religious freedom was being attacked.

The treaties alone disprove the idea that the Dalish would rather see the world burn than help humanity. We also know Ilen and his clan fought the darkspawn in the Anderfels during the Second Blight. The fact remains that not helping Orlais isn't the same as not helping all of humanity.

[EmperorSahlertz]

MasterScribe wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

The dales were neutral & didn't help at all during the 2nd blight

An elf ended the Fourth Blight.

A Grey Warden who happened to be an Elf ended the Fourth Blight. There is a significant difference.

He wasn't born a Grey Warden.

He was born an elf in a human-dominated society, for which he sacrificed himself.

He did his job as a Grey Warden. That he just happened to be an elf, does NOT exhonorate the Dalish for leaving the world to die.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

MasterScribe wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

The dales were neutral & didn't help at all during the 2nd blight

An elf ended the Fourth Blight.

A Grey Warden who happened to be an Elf ended the Fourth Blight. There is a significant difference.

He wasn't born a Grey Warden.

He was born an elf in a human-dominated society, for which he sacrificed himself.

He did his job as a Grey Warden. That he just happened to be an elf, does NOT exhonorate the Dalish for leaving the world to die.

So inaction is a crime?

Letting a city full of people die & refusing to help just because their human doesn't make a good case for the dales.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They didn't help Orlais, who seemed to be an enemy at the time. There's a difference.

h, please tell me EXACTLY which other nations they helped during the Blight? 

Tell me which nations petitioned the Dales for help. As far as I see from the known facts, their Emerald Knights patrolled the border while an enemy that threatened their sovereignty and religious freedom was being attacked.

The treaties alone disprove the idea that the Dalish would rather see the world burn than help humanity. We also know Ilen and his clan fought the darkspawn in the Anderfels during the Second Blight. The fact remains that not helping Orlais isn't the same as not helping all of humanity.

The ENTIRE continent of Thedas was eventually covered by the Second Blight, so the entire world needed their help. The Dalish remained neutral THROUGHOUT the Second Blight, which means they did not help ANY nation.

See, this right ehre is another of your blatant attemtps at whitewashing the actions (or in this case inaction I suppose) of the Dalish, trying to pass of their intentions to not help ANY nation, as something that was solely focused at Orlais.

And the treaties proves only that the Dalish now realize that if they do not help out during a Blight ever again, then the rest of Thedas will finally realize that the Dalish serve no purpose any more, and eradicate them.

MasterScribe wrote...

So inaction is a crime?

Crime would imply that some law was broken. So no.

Is it wrong to do nothing when your inaction could potentially doom the entire world? Yes. Very much so.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I think humanity would have helped, they wouldn't want the darkspawn causing such destruction & didn't cling to a belief that elves are a plague to them