134 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

MasterScribe wrote...

Would the humans have helped elves in the same situation?

Even if they wouldn't, then two wrongs STILL doesn't make a right. So the Dalish do not get to play that card either.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

MasterScribe wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

I think humanity would have helped, they wouldn't want the darkspawn causing such destruction & didn't cling to a belief that elves are a plague to them

Humans destroyed Elvhenan.<_<

I thought it was the Tevinter Imperium that did that during a war against Arlathan not just humanity in general

[EmperorSahlertz]

MasterScribe wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

So inaction is a crime?

Crime would imply that some law was broken. So no.

Is it wrong to do nothing when your inaction could potentially doom the entire world? Yes. Very much so.

You were the one that mentioned exoneration.<_<

If you REALLY want to go by the law terms then... Yes, then the inaction of the Dalish would be a case of criminal negligence. Their inactions directly endangered the ENTIRE world' population unnecessarily.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

So inaction is a crime?

Crime would imply that some law was broken. So no.

Is it wrong to do nothing when your inaction could potentially doom the entire world? Yes. Very much so.

You were the one that mentioned exoneration.<_<

If you REALLY want to go by the law terms then... Yes, then the inaction of the Dalish would be a case of criminal negligence. Their inactions directly endangered the ENTIRE world' population unnecessarily.

Is sad that the dales would have watched the darkspawn conquer Thedas rather then mix with humans

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

MasterScribe wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

I think humanity would have helped, they wouldn't want the darkspawn causing such destruction & didn't cling to a belief that elves are a plague to them

Humans destroyed Elvhenan.<_<

I thought it was the Tevinter Imperium that did that during a war against Arlathan not just humanity in general

In case you had forgotten, Tevinter is a human-dominated society. Always has been.

Being a powerful mage is more important then just being human in Tevinter

[dragonflight288]

MasterScribe wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

So inaction is a crime?

Crime would imply that some law was broken. So no.

Is it wrong to do nothing when your inaction could potentially doom the entire world? Yes. Very much so.

You were the one that mentioned exoneration.<_<

If you REALLY want to go by the law terms then... Yes, then the inaction of the Dalish would be a case of criminal negligence. Their inactions directly endangered the ENTIRE world' population unnecessarily.

Is sad that the dales would have watched the darkspawn conquer Thedas rather then mix with humans

Blame the dwarves. It's their responsibility to deal with these things before they get out of hand.

The Deep Roads span all across Thedas, and the dwarves have lost all that ground and are only in Orzammar and Kal Sharok now. And the surfacers offer them no help whatsoever in between blights. Heck, the Wardens in Origins can say before getting recruited that darkspawn are nothing more than a dwarven problem as if that's the end of it.

I say if the surfacers don't want another blight in the future, they can help fight darkspawn with the dwarves continuously for centuries like the dwarves have when it is not a blight.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The ENTIRE continent of Thedas was eventually covered by the Second Blight, so the entire world needed their help. The Dalish remained neutral THROUGHOUT the Second Blight, which means they did not help ANY nation.

See, this right ehre is another of your blatant attemtps at whitewashing the actions (or in this case inaction I suppose) of the Dalish, trying to pass of their intentions to not help ANY nation, as something that was solely focused at Orlais.

The Second Blight started in Tevinter territory, making it's way to Orlais, and then Tevinter. And the neighbor of the Dales was an empire that was conquering and forcing converting their other neighbors to worship of the Maker, which is why the discussion was focused on why the Dalish didn't aid Orlais when darkspawn attacked the empire. Even the Chantry makes it explicitly clear that they want the four corners of the world to follow the Chant, and condemn non-Andrastians as heathens. Why would the Dales aid an empire that threatened them?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And the treaties proves only that the Dalish now realize that if they do not help out during a Blight ever again, then the rest of Thedas will finally realize that the Dalish serve no purpose any more, and eradicate them.

The Dalish clans are hunted by the templars, which even happened to Ariane's clan. They aren't welcomed in human lands, their kingdom is occupied by the Orlesian Empire, and their religion I'd outlawed. Despite all that, they signed a treaty with the Grey Wardens to aid the human nations during a Blight.

[dragonflight288]

The Dalish are too few in number and consist of nomadic tribes. Their resources are nothing compared to either the dwarves or the humans, both of whom have actual homes.

The humans and dwarves have control over every nation in Thedas. They need to deal with the problem.

If you'll notice, I didn't say Dalish, elves or humans at all. I said surfacers. Heck, one elf, the honorable surfacer, came down and fought side-by-side with the dwarves and died in the deep roads. They gave him an honored dwarven burial.

We know it's possible for any surfacer to come down if they so choose, and it doesn't necessarily have to be one group or another group. The point I made was that if the Surfacers in general don't want to deal with a Blight on the surface, they least they can do is send troops down to Orzammar and try to help the dwarves. After all, no one wants to admit but, but the dwarves are losing the war, losing ground inch by inch, and it's only a matter of time until the darkspawn overwhelm them.

And when that happens, the darkspawn won't have anyone else to go to, but up to the surface, and then you won't need an archdemon. It'll be a never-ending blight, and no one would be able to harvest lyrium for the joining to make new Grey Wardens, make templars or allow mages to recharge their mana. That probably will be decades, maybe even centuries down the line, but unless something changes, that's the only logical outcome.

[LobselVith8]

Threat300 wrote...

Is sad that the dales would have watched the darkspawn conquer Thedas rather then mix with humans

I'm sure that Orlais invading it's neighbors and forcing them to convert to their religion had nothing to do with it.

Anyway, as DragonFlight points out, the only ones who actually deal with the darkspawn full-on are the dwarves. No one else - human or elven - can say the same. Virtually everyone else pretty much dismisses the darkspawn as a "dwarven problem" until the darkspawn threaten the surface nations.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

NOPE nothing in the lore about Dalish killing humans completely unprovoked. Nope, we have dismissed those dreadful rumors. Move along please. Dalish can do no wrong.
.......

Bear in mind that 1) the source Genitivi got that from was biased (it's inevitable, and trying to label all the clans as like that is foolish) and 2) the Dalish source (a better source to gleam information about the current Dalish lifestyle, though still biased) says that most clans would just like to be left the hell alone and don't go instigating trouble.

Supporting this, in Awakening you come across an all Elven, non-Dalish group of bandits that are trying to make people think they're Dalish (tattoo'd faces and whatnot). It's a RE.

Also, the Sabrae clan operates under a "Do not attack humans" mentality. That Tamlen and Mahariel can do so is actually going against the will of the Keeper and by and large the clan, endangering them all. Mahariel's father -- the previous Keeper -- actually made it a point to engage in some form of diplomatic relations with humans as a means of trying to get the two races to move forward.

The Dalish took in Pol, Aveline, and a few other city elves. Granted, they're abandoning their other way of life, but the more common mindset displayed is that the City Elves are viewed as inferior because of how they allow themselves to be treated and not the religion itself (though that DOES play a part in it).

But let's not forget City Elves are just as douchey to their own people that choose to make a life outside the Alienage. The Dalish are hardly the worst of the lot. I'd say the City Elves are worse then the Dalish for that very reason.

Regarding the Second Blight, I find it hard to believe the Dalish didn't help out in some form. That'd be idiotic, and the Dalish are not wholly idiotic. Remember, after the Dales was conquered, history was tailor-made to suit whatever the winners wanted.

It's a simple fact of history. It's written by the winners. And if the Elves' part in the toppling of the Imperium was taken out after the Fall of the Dales, who's to say that their part in the Second Blight wasn't given the same treatment?

After all, Elven-Human relations are STILL extremely rocky (at best) despite the possible fact that, hey, a Dalish Warden saved Ferelden. And Alistair implies that the Fereldans were to blame for the loss of the third homeland and the Dalish weren't really the reason for it.

We have the Tale of Iloren that tells us that one clan did fight against the Darkspawn. Is it strong evidence? No, not really. Is it evidence? Yeah. Montsimmard may even have appeared to be a lost battle, in which case the Elves' reluctance to join the fray can be justified and understood, despite how Montsimmard's battle was ultimately won anyway.

Just because a battle can be won doesn't mean it always will appear such.

It may turn out that we'll discover something else about how the Elves did help out in that Blight. We can't say anything is really certain at this point in time.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 janvier 2014 - 06:03 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Genetivi's account is first hand. He saw Dalish bandits attack his caravan, murder the guards and steal supplies.

David Gaider has mentioned that different clans act very differently from one another. Some clans are xenophobic and militant. Some favor coexistence with humans. And we've seen clans that prefer to isolate themselves to avoid trouble. All of these things happen, so trying to paint a picture where all Dalish have only one practice and thus are easily classified as "good" or "evil" is simply wrong.

Regarding the Second Blight, the lore tells us that Shartan and his followers aided Andraste and was later removed from the offical Chantry version.  It also tells us that The Dales were neutral and unhelpful. In one case it tells us about the cover up. There's no mention of any such event when it comes to the Second Blight from any of the mostly objective voice in World of Thedas.

During the Second Blight, I think the elves attitude towards the rest of the nations in general and Montismmard in particular is indefensible. Any animosity between the the Dales and Orlais at the time could only have been recent and fairly minor. Especially since it's only mentioned very briefly in a very vauge throwaway line once in lore. Even if they were longtime rivals, it doen't matter. During a Blight the darkspawn are the enemy. If the Dales had a problem with Orlais, it no longer should have mattered. Certainly the Orlesian Empire ceased any attacks on other nations during the war with the darkspawn. And in either abandoning a city to die just because they are Orlesian citizens is pretty monsterous.

Given the isolationism of the Dales even after the Blight, I'm inclined to think the reason was simply didn't want to risk their armies to help outsiders with their darkspawn problems.

I don't think it can be justified. But it's not exactly unique in thedosian history. The Dales were hardly the only example of this over the course of all five Blights. Most nations most of the time tend to prefer to look after their own borders during blights and darkspawn attacks and only get involved in larger campaigns when the wardens push for it. It's for exactly this reason that Emperor Drakon was such a remarkably heroic figure. He began the most proactive campaign against the darkspawn in history.

While it never says this anywhere specifically, I'm pretty confident that the elves did not have a treaty with the Grey Wardens until after the fall of the Dales. Factor in that with extra aloof attitude of the elves at the time, and it's not really a surprise they did something similar to what most others did. That doesn't make it right, but it doesn't justify the destruction of the Dales either.

However, just because the elves very often are and have been the victims throughout history, doesn't mean they haven't been clearly in the wrong at other times. I'd say this is one of them.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 06 janvier 2014 - 06:42 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The ENTIRE continent of Thedas was eventually covered by the Second Blight, so the entire world needed their help. The Dalish remained neutral THROUGHOUT the Second Blight, which means they did not help ANY nation.

See, this right ehre is another of your blatant attemtps at whitewashing the actions (or in this case inaction I suppose) of the Dalish, trying to pass of their intentions to not help ANY nation, as something that was solely focused at Orlais.

The Second Blight started in Tevinter territory, making it's way to Orlais, and then Tevinter. And the neighbor of the Dales was an empire that was conquering and forcing converting their other neighbors to worship of the Maker, which is why the discussion was focused on why the Dalish didn't aid Orlais when darkspawn attacked the empire. Even the Chantry makes it explicitly clear that they want the four corners of the world to follow the Chant, and condemn non-Andrastians as heathens. Why would the Dales aid an empire that threatened them?

AGAIN you try to focus on a little part of THedas, when I EXPLICITEDLY state that the Dales did not help ANY nation during a BLight that covered the ENTIRE world. Try to understand what is being said, instead of spinning it to try and whitewash Dalish inaction.... Again...

[TEWR]

Genetivi's account is first hand. He saw Dalish bandits attack his caravan, murder the guards and steal supplies.

What I meant was that his receiving of who they were was potentially biased. He was attacked, yes, but it wasn't until later on that someone said "They're Dalish".

Fact is, we can't be certain if they WERE Dalish, or merely tattoo'd bandits (like the kind seen in Awakening).

[andy6915]

The Chantry is the CAUSE of Tevinter. The classic line about "magic is to serve man" is the very line Tevinter uses as their excuse to let mages rule. Truly, I don't think Tevinter would be a Magister hell hole if the Chantry didn't exist. If the Chantry never existed, neither would Tevinter in the current form. The Chantry does have uses though, they are the reason the Qunari don't rule the world.

[Hellion Rex]

andy69156915 wrote...

The Chantry is the CAUSE of Tevinter. The classic line about "magic is to serve man" is the very line Tevinter uses as their excuse to let mages rule. Truly, I don't think Tevinter would be a Magister hell hole if the Chantry didn't exist. If the Chantry never existed, neither would Tevinter in the current form. The Chantry does have uses though, they are the reason the Qunari don't rule the world.

Tevinter was around LONG before the Chantry existed.

[andy6915]

eluvianix wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

The Chantry is the CAUSE of Tevinter. The classic line about "magic is to serve man" is the very line Tevinter uses as their excuse to let mages rule. Truly, I don't think Tevinter would be a Magister hell hole if the Chantry didn't exist. If the Chantry never existed, neither would Tevinter in the current form. The Chantry does have uses though, they are the reason the Qunari don't rule the world.

Tevinter was around LONG before the Chantry existed.

Yet their Magister system, where they consider anything a Magister does is "serving" by virtue of being a Magister, arose specifically because the Chantry's rules about magic had that loophole. That's why Magisters get away with how they are, they took that line to mean that they have divine right to do what they wish because everything they do serves by virtue that they are the ones doing it. Take that line away, take the Chantry away, and their excuse for their Magisters goes out the window.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Second Blight started in Tevinter territory, making it's way to Orlais, and then Tevinter. And the neighbor of the Dales was an empire that was conquering and forcing converting their other neighbors to worship of the Maker, which is why the discussion was focused on why the Dalish didn't aid Orlais when darkspawn attacked the empire. Even the Chantry makes it explicitly clear that they want the four corners of the world to follow the Chant, and condemn non-Andrastians as heathens. Why would the Dales aid an empire that threatened them?

AGAIN you try to focus on a little part of THedas, when I EXPLICITEDLY state that the Dales did not help ANY nation during a BLight that covered the ENTIRE world. Try to understand what is being said, instead of spinning it to try and whitewash Dalish inaction.... Again... 

Which would have meant going through Orlais itself to reach Tevinter territory to fight the darkspawn and combat the Blight.

[Hellion Rex]

andy69156915 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

The Chantry is the CAUSE of Tevinter. The classic line about "magic is to serve man" is the very line Tevinter uses as their excuse to let mages rule. Truly, I don't think Tevinter would be a Magister hell hole if the Chantry didn't exist. If the Chantry never existed, neither would Tevinter in the current form. The Chantry does have uses though, they are the reason the Qunari don't rule the world.

Tevinter was around LONG before the Chantry existed.

Yet their Magister system, where they consider anything a Magister does is "serving" by virtue of being a Magister, arose specifically because the Chantry's rules about magic had that loophole. That's why Magisters get away with how they are, they took that line to mean that they have divine right to do what they wish because everything they do serves by virtue that they are the ones doing it. Take that line away, take the Chantry away, and their excuse for their Magisters goes out the window.

Again, wrong. The magister system existed LONG before the Chantry ever came onto the scene.
The magisters go back at least as far as -1195 Ancient.

Modifié par eluvianix, 06 janvier 2014 - 04:28 .