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[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Second Blight started in Tevinter territory, making it's way to Orlais, and then Tevinter. And the neighbor of the Dales was an empire that was conquering and forcing converting their other neighbors to worship of the Maker, which is why the discussion was focused on why the Dalish didn't aid Orlais when darkspawn attacked the empire. Even the Chantry makes it explicitly clear that they want the four corners of the world to follow the Chant, and condemn non-Andrastians as heathens. Why would the Dales aid an empire that threatened them?

AGAIN you try to focus on a little part of THedas, when I EXPLICITEDLY state that the Dales did not help ANY nation during a BLight that covered the ENTIRE world. Try to understand what is being said, instead of spinning it to try and whitewash Dalish inaction.... Again... 

Which would have meant going through Orlais itself to reach Tevinter territory to fight the darkspawn and combat the Blight.

Or east over the Frostbacks and into what would later become Ferelden and help the Alamarri, or North over the Waking Sea and help the Free Marches. They had plenty of options to assist humans. They refused.

[Bleachrude]

Wait...we have gotten to the point where the Chantry is responsible for Tevinter even though Tevinter existed for over a 1000 years BEFORE Andraste?

*LOL*

[HiroVoid]

eluvianix wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

The Chantry is the CAUSE of Tevinter. The classic line about "magic is to serve man" is the very line Tevinter uses as their excuse to let mages rule. Truly, I don't think Tevinter would be a Magister hell hole if the Chantry didn't exist. If the Chantry never existed, neither would Tevinter in the current form. The Chantry does have uses though, they are the reason the Qunari don't rule the world.

Tevinter was around LONG before the Chantry existed.

Yet their Magister system, where they consider anything a Magister does is "serving" by virtue of being a Magister, arose specifically because the Chantry's rules about magic had that loophole. That's why Magisters get away with how they are, they took that line to mean that they have divine right to do what they wish because everything they do serves by virtue that they are the ones doing it. Take that line away, take the Chantry away, and their excuse for their Magisters goes out the window.

Again, wrong. The magister system existed LONG before the Chantry ever came onto the scene.
The magisters go back at least as far as -1195 Ancient.

Yeah....Tevinter was much worse before the Chantry when they had more power.  If anything, the reverse may be true with some of the teachings in the chantry being the result of Tevinter's reign before the chantry came in existence though I still contend the 'Magic is a gift, but also a curse' line comes simply from mages being attractive hosts for demons.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Which would have meant going through Orlais itself to reach Tevinter territory to fight the darkspawn and combat the Blight.

Or east over the Frostbacks and into what would later become Ferelden and help the Alamarri, or North over the Waking Sea and help the Free Marches. They had plenty of options to assist humans. They refused. 

So either trekking across the cold harshness of the Frostback Mountains to aid a group of warring human clans (who were in constant struggle with their fellow tribes) who might very well attack the elves, or somehow crossing the Waking Sea to help the Free Marches when we don't even know whether or not they built boats to make such a voyage. Yeah, plenty of options all right.

So far, I'm not seeing the elves of the Dales as being any different from any surface nation, as all of them have done nothing to help the dwarves, who are the only ones fighting the darkspawn head-on in the Deep Roads. You could criticize them all, since the elves are hardly unique in this regard.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

HiroVoid wrote...
Yeah....Tevinter was much worse before the Chantry when they had more power.  If anything, the reverse may be true with some of the teachings in the chantry being the result of Tevinter's reign before the chantry came in existence though I still contend the 'Magic is a gift, but also a curse' line comes simply from mages being attractive hosts for demons.

Indeed. Tevinter is pretty bad now. Certainly the worst out of all the human nations but it's actually much better than it used to be.

Chantry taboo has curbed use of blood magic from horrifying excess to just widespread abuse. These days a magisters will kill the odd slave once and a while for their vanity. In ancient times they've be sacrificed by the hundreds in order to fuel construction or any other type of project. Plus Andraste's Exalted March seems to have improved the lot of elves in the Imperium from "almost entirely slaves" to "mostly an in impoverished minority, many of whom are slaves."

It's also worth noting that when the Imperium first converted under Hesserion, his intention did seem to be to change Tevinter for the better. The century or so that followed the Transfigurations was the only time in history where oppression of mundanes stopped. And I think he may have even tried to curb the slave labor. It was said somewhere Tevinter "began buying new slaves within a few generations."

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 06 janvier 2014 - 07:00 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Which would have meant going through Orlais itself to reach Tevinter territory to fight the darkspawn and combat the Blight.

Or east over the Frostbacks and into what would later become Ferelden and help the Alamarri, or North over the Waking Sea and help the Free Marches. They had plenty of options to assist humans. They refused. 

So either trekking across the cold harshness of the Frostback Mountains to aid a group of warring human clans (who were in constant struggle with their fellow tribes) who might very well attack the elves, or somehow crossing the Waking Sea to help the Free Marches when we don't even know whether or not they built boats to make such a voyage. Yeah, plenty of options all right.

Considering that is EXACTLY what Orlais did, I think it is fair to say that the Dales could have done the same. Also since the Dales did have a notheren coastline, it would seem plausible that the Dales already had the boats they needed.

LobselVith8 wrote...
So far, I'm not seeing the elves of the Dales as being any different from any surface nation, as all of them have done nothing to help the dwarves, who are the only ones fighting the darkspawn head-on in the Deep Roads. You could criticize them all, since the elves are hardly unique in this regard.

No of course YOU of all people don't see why it was wrong for the Dales to leave the rest of the world to wither and die. But then again, your blatant favoritism towards the Dales, and your incesant whitewashing of all their actions, is hardly a surprise to anyone anymore.

And the WORLD is not at danger when there is no Blight. At such times it is only the Dwarves. And consdiering they probably wouldn't even accept the help if offered, makes your suggestion fall flat (Yes, Ferelden under Behlen does eventually send aid, but this allaince will evaporate with the death of Behlen).

[Cainhurst Crow]

Rotward wrote...

The chantry is a problem because it fails to differentiate between a society of mages that believes it should rule all none-mages, and a kid halfway around the world who happens to share one trait: magic. 

Note that both the qun and the chantry are religions. They create a culture of fear and hate toward mages. Without them there would still be distrust, and perhaps fear, but at least the educated would differentiate between a wynne and a tevinter slaver. 

The most effective way to defeat the imperium would have been replacing it. Create a government that treats mages as people. Punish crimes, otherwise leave them be, give them no special treatment. Whether you treat someone better or worse than those around them, you're giving them special treatment, and that fosters a sense of entitlement in some. 

And the 97% of uneducated farmers and peasants who make up the majority of the country would be burning them at the stake because no one was around to lead in organized effort to collect these individuals to secure areas where they could learn to use their powers under supervised conditions and by their fellow mage countrymen.

Widespread literacy and education aren't things I think are that common place in thedas, let alone teaching everyone the philosophy that we're all the same on the inside that came about only in the last century.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 06 janvier 2014 - 07:39 .

[MisterJB]

Rotward wrote...

The chantry is a problem because it fails to differentiate between a society of mages that believes it should rule all none-mages, and a kid halfway around the world who happens to share one trait: magic. 

Note that both the qun and the chantry are religions. They create a culture of fear and hate toward mages. Without them there would still be distrust, and perhaps fear, but at least the educated would differentiate between a wynne and a tevinter slaver. 

The most effective way to defeat the imperium would have been replacing it. Create a government that treats mages as people. Punish crimes, otherwise leave them be, give them no special treatment. Whether you treat someone better or worse than those around them, you're giving them special treatment, and that fosters a sense of entitlement in some. 

That is entirely unfair. Here is what the very first Divine, Justinia I(the person who coined the term "maleficarum"), said about mages:

Those mages who honor the Maker and keep his laws we welcome as our brothers and sisters. Those who reject the laws of the Maker and the words of His prophet are apostate. They shall be cast out, and given no place among us.

It's in the codex. Read it.
Since the Chantry is a continent spanning organization with several representatives in every country, there's bound to be less than charitable Mothers who incite violence against mages when their powers appear but here is the very first Divine; you know, the person whose job was define the newborn Chantry and nurture it; making distinctions between "bad" mages and "good" mages.

Now, you can say that the Chantry has not treated "good" mages like "brothers and sisters" but, let's be realistic. Justinia's words are very pretty but, in practice, mages simply are not equal to normals. And there needs to be laws that apply only to them if the freedom and security of normal people who can't kill others with their minds is to be assured. These laws must reflect the fact mages pose to society at large; ignoring the problem will not make it disappear.

[TEWR]

Justinia I(the person who coined the term "maleficarum"), said about mages:

She didn't coin it. In DA, it was an old Tevinter word that when translated means "one who is depraved". She just appropriated it for a sermon on magic.

Personally, I disagree that only blood mages should be called maleficarum, but then I'm rather picky when it comes to words and their meanings. Malevolent blood mages like Danarius or Uldred are maleficarum to me.

Merrill's just a blood mage.

Alrik's a maleficar to me.

People have seen me talk about it before, so I shan't bring it up as a point of discussion.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 janvier 2014 - 09:41 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So far, I'm not seeing the elves of the Dales as being any different from any surface nation, as all of them have done nothing to help the dwarves, who are the only ones fighting the darkspawn head-on in the Deep Roads. You could criticize them all, since the elves are hardly unique in this regard. 

No of course YOU of all people don't see why it was wrong for the Dales to leave the rest of the world to wither and die. But then again, your blatant favoritism towards the Dales, and your incesant whitewashing of all their actions, is hardly a surprise to anyone anymore.

It's favoritism to point out that you can condemn the humans and the elves for not taking the darkspawn as seriously as the dwarves? For only getting involved when the darkspawn threaten the surface? Since the surface nations stand idly the rest of the time by while dwarves to fight and die while they do nothing, despite it being within their power to provide aid to stop the darkspawn. You can criticize them for discarding the darkspawn as a "dwarven problem", which is one of the problems with many humans and elves.

You're condemning the elves for not sacrificing their lives to stop the darkspawn on the surface when they threatened human societies, but human nations do nothing to stop the darkspawn from dominating the Deep Roads - they only deal with the darkspawn when they threaten them via the surface, which is pointed out in Origins. You're accusing me of favoritism for pointing out that only the dwarves deal with the darkspawn head-on, which isn't true of either the humans or the elves?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And the WORLD is not at danger when there is no Blight. At such times it is only the Dwarves. And consdiering they probably wouldn't even accept the help if offered, makes your suggestion fall flat (Yes, Ferelden under Behlen does eventually send aid, but this allaince will evaporate with the death of Behlen). 

There's an ocean of darkspawn in the Deep Roads. I think that's a serious threat. And we know people discard the darkspawn as a "dwarven problem" from the narrative of Origins. You're condemning the Dalish for doing what the rest of the surface world does, and excusing the rest of the world while holding the Dales to a different standard.

[Grieving Natashina]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Justinia I(the person who coined the term "maleficarum"), said about mages:

She didn't coin it. In DA, it was an old Tevinter word that when translated means "one who is depraved". She just appropriated it for a sermon on magic.

Personally, I disagree that only blood mages should be called maleficarum, but then I'm rather picky when it comes to words and their meanings. Malevolent blood mages like Danarius or Uldred are maleficarum to me.

Merrill's just a blood mage.

Alrik's a maleficar to me.

People have seen me talk about it before, so I shan't bring it up as a point of discussion.

Huh.  I thought you had to be a mage to be a maleficar.  You've got my curousity raised.  Would you please elaborate?  I'm not debating here, I just want to know why you think Alrik fits.  He was a horrible person and a bad apple in the Templars, but I'm puzzled as to how that makes him a maleficar.  

Is it because the Templars have magic abliities and he was abusing it?

Modifié par Starsyn, 06 janvier 2014 - 10:13 .

[MisterJB]

No, he means that "maleficarum" was a term that was coined by the Imperium and it meant "one who is depraved". However, depravity is not exclusive to mages. Alrik's actions made him depraved which made him, in TEWR's eyes, a maleficarum. By this definition, Howe would be a maleficarum as well.

Personally, I don't agree because languages changes with the times and words that used to mean something can become associated with something entirely unrelated. After a thousand years of being free from Tevinter, "maleficarum" has come to mean depraved mages, more specifically; and maybe even exclusively; blood mages.

[Grieving Natashina]

MisterJB wrote...

No, he means that "maleficarum" was a term that was coined by the Imperium and it meant "one who is depraved". However, depravity is not exclusive to mages. Alrik's actions made him depraved which made him, in TEWR's eyes, a maleficarum. By this definition, Howe would be a maleficarum as well.

Personally, I don't agree because languages changes with the times and words that used to mean something can become associated with something entirely unrelated. After a thousand years of being free from Tevinter, "maleficarum" has come to mean depraved mages, more specifically; and maybe even exclusively; blood mages.

Ah, that makes sense.  Rather like the use of the word "warlock" in English.  It started out to mean "oathbreaker," but time and common usage have changed the meaning to "male and/or evil witch."

Thanks. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So far, I'm not seeing the elves of the Dales as being any different from any surface nation, as all of them have done nothing to help the dwarves, who are the only ones fighting the darkspawn head-on in the Deep Roads. You could criticize them all, since the elves are hardly unique in this regard. 

No of course YOU of all people don't see why it was wrong for the Dales to leave the rest of the world to wither and die. But then again, your blatant favoritism towards the Dales, and your incesant whitewashing of all their actions, is hardly a surprise to anyone anymore.

It's favoritism to point out that you can condemn the humans and the elves for not taking the darkspawn as seriously as the dwarves? For only getting involved when the darkspawn threaten the surface? Since the surface nations stand idly the rest of the time by while dwarves to fight and die while they do nothing, despite it being within their power to provide aid to stop the darkspawn. You can criticize them for discarding the darkspawn as a "dwarven problem", which is one of the problems with many humans and elves.

You're condemning the elves for not sacrificing their lives to stop the darkspawn on the surface when they threatened human societies, but human nations do nothing to stop the darkspawn from dominating the Deep Roads - they only deal with the darkspawn when they threaten them via the surface, which is pointed out in Origins. You're accusing me of favoritism for pointing out that only the dwarves deal with the darkspawn head-on, which isn't true of either the humans or the elves?

When there is a Blight then the ENTIRE surface world is at danger. Last Ichecked the Elves lived on the surface aswell, and would have died just as suredly as the humans. Their inactions could potentially have doomed the entire world.
When there isn't a Blight, then it is ONLY the Dwarven society that is endangered.

So no. The difference that you refuse to acknowledge (because that would be to acknowledge that the Elves had done something beyond stupid and immoral), is that the inaction of Elves threatened both themselves, the humans AND the Dwarves, and not just Orlais.
The inaction of humans only ever threaten Dwarven society, though in over 1000 years the Dwarves have neither asked for nor wanted any surfacer help.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And the WORLD is not at danger when there is no Blight. At such times it is only the Dwarves. And consdiering they probably wouldn't even accept the help if offered, makes your suggestion fall flat (Yes, Ferelden under Behlen does eventually send aid, but this allaince will evaporate with the death of Behlen). 

There's an ocean of darkspawn in the Deep Roads. I think that's a serious threat. And we know people discard the darkspawn as a "dwarven problem" from the narrative of Origins. You're condemning the Dalish for doing what the rest of the surface world does, and excusing the rest of the world while holding the Dales to a different standard.

No I am condemning the Dalish for abbandoning a world, that they are a part of, to misery and death.
When there aren't any Blights the Darkspawn are disorganized and warring amongst themselves, making them significantly less of a threat.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When there is a Blight then the ENTIRE surface world is at danger. Last Ichecked the Elves lived on the surface aswell, and would have died just as suredly as the humans. Their inactions could potentially have doomed the entire world.
When there isn't a Blight, then it is ONLY the Dwarven society that is endangered.

So no. The difference that you refuse to acknowledge (because that would be to acknowledge that the Elves had done something beyond stupid and immoral), is that the inaction of Elves threatened both themselves, the humans AND the Dwarves, and not just Orlais.
The inaction of humans only ever threaten Dwarven society, though in over 1000 years the Dwarves have neither asked for nor wanted any surfacer help.

It doesn't just threaten dwarven society. What do you think is going to happen if the last two dwarven Great Thaigs fall? Nothing is going to stop the darkspawn then.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No I am condemning the Dalish for abbandoning a world, that they are a part of, to misery and death.
When there aren't any Blights the Darkspawn are disorganized and warring amongst themselves, making them significantly less of a threat. 

You're condemning the Dalish while excusing the humans, despite the fact that the threat the darkspawn pose doesn't stop simply because they're underground; the dwarves are the only ones even remotely responsible about handling the threat of the darkspawn.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 06 janvier 2014 - 11:13 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When there is a Blight then the ENTIRE surface world is at danger. Last Ichecked the Elves lived on the surface aswell, and would have died just as suredly as the humans. Their inactions could potentially have doomed the entire world.
When there isn't a Blight, then it is ONLY the Dwarven society that is endangered.

So no. The difference that you refuse to acknowledge (because that would be to acknowledge that the Elves had done something beyond stupid and immoral), is that the inaction of Elves threatened both themselves, the humans AND the Dwarves, and not just Orlais.
The inaction of humans only ever threaten Dwarven society, though in over 1000 years the Dwarves have neither asked for nor wanted any surfacer help.

It doesn't just threaten dwarven society. What do you think is going to happen if the last two dwarven Great Thaigs fall? Nothing is going to stop the darkspawn then.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No I am condemning the Dalish for abbandoning a world, that they are a part of, to misery and death.
When there aren't any Blights the Darkspawn are disorganized and warring amongst themselves, making them significantly less of a threat. 

You're condemning the Dalish while excusing the humans, despite the fact that the threat the darkspawn pose doesn't stop simply because they're underground; the dwarves are the only ones even remotely responsible about handling the threat of the darkspawn.

The threat of Darkspawn is severely diminished when there is no Blight. There is no discussing it. It is in the lore. Yes, they still fight the Dwarves in these times, but that is a result of both races happening to live underground. The Darkspawn also raid the surface outside of Blights. But it is irrefutably during the Blights that the Darkspawn poses the greatest threat to every living being. And it is to not work towards ending this threat, this threat to the entire world, that I condemn the Elves for.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You can certainly make a case that ignoring the plight of the dwarves (and the Anderfels, while we're at it) and their endless war with the darksawpwn is wrong. But ignoring the plight of others during a Blight is something else. That's a whole new level of sinister and irresponsible. It's wrong when the human nations do it and it's wrong when the Dales did it. There is a codex written by a dwarf that bitterly talks about when the dwarves are gone the surface world will be consumed by a blight that will never end and they will wonder what has changed. Whether this is actually what would happen or is a product of dwarven fatalism is not made clear.

Also, the term "maleficar" appears in the Chant of Light. It does refer to only mages. However, Andraste only describes them as "those who have taken his gift and turned it against his children."

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 06 janvier 2014 - 11:49 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Consdiering that there are literally hundreds of entry points into the Deep Roads beyond the two at the remaining the Dwarf cities, it is obviously not accurate what the Dwarf states. Also the Anders has been fighting off the Darkspawn ever since the First Blight, so the situation with or without the Dwarves probably won't change at all for them.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Consdiering that there are literally hundreds of entry points into the Deep Roads beyond the two at the remaining the Dwarf cities, it is obviously not accurate what the Dwarf states. Also the Anders has been fighting off the Darkspawn ever since the First Blight, so the situation with or without the Dwarves probably won't change at all for them.

And if the dwarves die out, which they inevitably will since they are losing, nothing will stop the darkspawn from spilling onto the surface everywhere. There would be no need for an archdemon for it to be a blight. It would be a neverending blight. No cutting off the head and have the body fall. No, it'll be a numberless horde pressing onward and onward without end and all the world will be swallowed.

In the end, my stance is that we don't know enough about the military, political or economical situation during the third blight. It may be easily possible that had the Dales sent aid, they would be attacked on sight by the humans because the racism and seeing elves as lesser than humans didn't go away when Andraste freed the slaves from Tevinter since the elves had been enslaved for 1000 years before Andraste, and the attitudes towards elves being little better than servants is quite predominant.

It may be possible that there was a feud between Orlais and the Dales because of trade, or the lack thereof. Or there may be another reason entirely. Maybe the Dalish actually had darkspawn in their own lands to deal with, but in smaller numbers, and couldn't send aid, and the humans took it as the elves wouldn't send aid.

I don't blame either side for aiding or not aiding during a blight because I feel like we don't have enough information. During a blight, you should send aid. This is true. But by that same reasoning, all Surface nations should also send aid to the dwarves when it isn't a blight, which none of them do, except Ferelden as a boon to a dwarven warden. If it isn't essential to for Orlais, the Free Marches or Nevarra to send aid to Orzammar when it isn't a blight, then we should hold all other nations to the same standards when it is a blight for whatever nation is suffering.

That's the thing about good and honest standards. You either hold all parties to it, or you hold none to it and that's the only way to be fair.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well, as all the Blights prove, the darkspawn don't actually need to destroy the dwarves to get to the surface. They can get there right now as is. And in some places they are constantly there.

If Orzammar, Kal-Sharok and Kal-Hirol were destroyed, it would likely get worse for the surface but I doubt it would become the same "endless blight" the dwarves experience. Darkspawn spend most of their time underground in the deep roads right now, even though they can spread to the surface anytime they want. Blights are different. All darkspawn are given a single overriding purpose to destroy everything that they don't have otherwise. I think even in the Anderfels that holds true. The darkspawn are a constant menace there, apparently because the effects of the Fourth Blight persisted even after Andoral was destroyed, but the Anderfels was so remote that everybody else could afford not to care. That's pretty callous, but during the blights the Anderfels teetered on the brink of complete destruction. If no-one had intervened then there likely wouldn't be anyone there anymore.

It's unlikely that the elves never fought any darkspawn at any time during the Second Blight given that we know they "overran all corners of the continent." We don't know the details of every singe encounter and battle but history does still tell us quite a bit about what happened over those 90 years.

There is mention of the darkspawn ravaging the Anderfels. There are references to battles in Orlais, and the Free Marches and the Tevinter Imperium. There is also mention of Hafter uniting the Alamarri tribes to defeat the darkspawn that poured into the Ferelden valley. There is no references to battles against the darkspawn in the Dales.

All history does tell us is that the elves let a nearby city burn without offering any help. World of Thedas is supposed to be an objective voice and it doesn't offer any extenuating circumstances except they did nothing and Montsimmard was nearly destroyed.

And we also know that was a strong contrast to what Orlais did. Despite suffering heavy casualties of their own, Orlesian armies fought and won battles all the way out in Cumberland, Weisshuapt and Starkhaven saving countless lives and nations.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And if the dwarves die out, which they inevitably will since they are losing, nothing will stop the darkspawn from spilling onto the surface everywhere. There would be no need for an archdemon for it to be a blight. It would be a neverending blight. No cutting off the head and have the body fall. No, it'll be a numberless horde pressing onward and onward without end and all the world will be swallowed.

In the end, my stance is that we don't know enough about the military, political or economical situation during the third blight. It may be easily possible that had the Dales sent aid, they would be attacked on sight by the humans because the racism and seeing elves as lesser than humans didn't go away when Andraste freed the slaves from Tevinter since the elves had been enslaved for 1000 years before Andraste, and the attitudes towards elves being little better than servants is quite predominant.

It may be possible that there was a feud between Orlais and the Dales because of trade, or the lack thereof. Or there may be another reason entirely. Maybe the Dalish actually had darkspawn in their own lands to deal with, but in smaller numbers, and couldn't send aid, and the humans took it as the elves wouldn't send aid.

I don't blame either side for aiding or not aiding during a blight because I feel like we don't have enough information. During a blight, you should send aid. This is true. But by that same reasoning, all Surface nations should also send aid to the dwarves when it isn't a blight, which none of them do, except Ferelden as a boon to a dwarven warden. If it isn't essential to for Orlais, the Free Marches or Nevarra to send aid to Orzammar when it isn't a blight, then we should hold all other nations to the same standards when it is a blight for whatever nation is suffering.

That's the thing about good and honest standards. You either hold all parties to it, or you hold none to it and that's the only way to be fair.

Nothing in this post is even remotely accurate...

First of all, nothing is stopping the Darkspawn right now from entering the surface. The Dwarven cities, might block two entrances, but there are hundreds scattered throughout Thedas. The eventual "extinction" (surface Dwarves wll live on) of the Dwarves will change little to nothing.

Second of all, we are talking about the Second Blight, not the Third. In the Second Blight the entire world was threatened by Darkspawn, and the Dales remained neutral throughout the conflict, which would indicate that they indeed did not fight any Darkspawn at any time.

Third of all, the southeren nations of Thedas did decidedly NOT see Elves as subhuman, yet. Elves had enver been servants to the southeren Thedosian nations, and the Elves were still seen as saviors by many. However there had been tensions between Orlais and the Dales for quite a while at this time. So Orlais and the Dales might have had issues, but humanity and elvenkind in general did not.

And considering that the Dwarves have managed to maintain the status quo for over a 1000 years, it is obvious that the Darkspawn is NOT what is killing them, but their own asinine culture. Also, the Darkspawn are not united when tehre is no Blight, and nothing indicates that the removal of the Dwarves, would result in the Darkspawn surging to the surface at all.
Basically the Darkspawn vs. Dwarves conflict outside of Blights, is just like any other war between nations on the surface.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well darkspawn aren't exactly the type to respect "neutrality" so I think if any part of the hordes had been in the vicinity of the Dales over the course of the war then they would have attacked it. But the lack of any record of major battles in the Dales from any scource of lore makes me think they were mostly spared.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 07 janvier 2014 - 09:55 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

But Darkspawn are the kind of enemy that would take advantage of the idiocy of its enemies. f the Darkspawn realized that the Elves would not participate, then tehy certainly wouldn't force them to, until after the humans had been eradicated and the Elves would have no hope of surviving.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

But Darkspawn are the kind of enemy that would take advantage of the idiocy of its enemies. f the Darkspawn realized that the Elves would not participate, then tehy certainly wouldn't force them to, until after the humans had been eradicated and the Elves would have no hope of surviving.

The darkspawn dominate the fallen dwarven kingdoms that run the length of Thedas, so they've already taken advantage of the surface world sitting on their thumbs between the Blights while their numbers grow and grow; the only thing keeping most darkspawn in the Deep Roads is the Song of the Archdemons, and even that won't last after the next two Blights are concluded.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

But Darkspawn are the kind of enemy that would take advantage of the idiocy of its enemies. f the Darkspawn realized that the Elves would not participate, then tehy certainly wouldn't force them to, until after the humans had been eradicated and the Elves would have no hope of surviving.

The darkspawn dominate the fallen dwarven kingdoms that run the length of Thedas, so they've already taken advantage of the surface world sitting on their thumbs between the Blights while their numbers grow and grow; the only thing keeping most darkspawn in the Deep Roads is the Song of the Archdemons, and even that won't last after the next two Blights are concluded.

You of course say this based on what evidence? So far I have yet to see any evidence that even remotely hints at that the Darkspawn will surge to the surface AFTER the 7th Blight is concluded.
And the Dwarven Kingdoms fell during the First Blight, during which Tevinter itself was struggling to stay alive (the rest of the surface included for that matter), nor do we even know wether or not they did send troops to aid the Dwarves. We know that the Tevinter Imperium and the Dwarven Kingdoms were close allies, so it stands to reason that they aided eachother in the conflcit, wherever possible.