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[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The darkspawn dominate the fallen dwarven kingdoms that run the length of Thedas, so they've already taken advantage of the surface world sitting on their thumbs between the Blights while their numbers grow and grow; the only thing keeping most darkspawn in the Deep Roads is the Song of the Archdemons, and even that won't last after the next two Blights are concluded.

You of course say this based on what evidence?

Based on the dialogue in Orzammar where it's stated that the dwarven empire spanned the length and breadth of the continent. The darkspawn overran the dwarves, and invaded their kingdom.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So far I have yet to see any evidence that even remotely hints at that the Darkspawn will surge to the surface AFTER the 7th Blight is concluded.
And the Dwarven Kingdoms fell during the First Blight, during which Tevinter itself was struggling to stay alive (the rest of the surface included for that matter), nor do we even know wether or not they did send troops to aid the Dwarves. We know that the Tevinter Imperium and the Dwarven Kingdoms were close allies, so it stands to reason that they aided eachother in the conflcit, wherever possible. 

The darkspawn already make incursions to the surface; most of them stay underground due to the Song of the Archdemon. You seem to be dismissing the threat as a dwarven problem, which is exactly how virtually every other nation treats the serious threat posed by the darkspawn.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 07 janvier 2014 - 06:16 .

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Based on the dialogue in Orzammar where it's stated that the dwarven empire spanned the length and breadth of the continent. The darkspawn overran the dwarves, and invaded their kingdom.

Indeed, there is also dialogue between Alistair and Oghren (not with each other, with the warden) that further confirms this

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 07 janvier 2014 - 06:37 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The darkspawn dominate the fallen dwarven kingdoms that run the length of Thedas, so they've already taken advantage of the surface world sitting on their thumbs between the Blights while their numbers grow and grow; the only thing keeping most darkspawn in the Deep Roads is the Song of the Archdemons, and even that won't last after the next two Blights are concluded.

You of course say this based on what evidence?

Based on the dialogue in Orzammar where it's stated that the dwarven empire spanned the length and breadth of the continent. The darkspawn overran the dwarves, and invaded their kingdom.

I know the Dwarven Kingdoms spanned underneath much of the known world. That is not what I asked of you to actually support with facts. I am asking you to support your hypothesis that Darkspawn after the Seventh Blight would start surging to the surface. I did this mostly rhethorically, since I know your hypothesis is completely unsupported... But still...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So far I have yet to see any evidence that even remotely hints at that the Darkspawn will surge to the surface AFTER the 7th Blight is concluded.
And the Dwarven Kingdoms fell during the First Blight, during which Tevinter itself was struggling to stay alive (the rest of the surface included for that matter), nor do we even know wether or not they did send troops to aid the Dwarves. We know that the Tevinter Imperium and the Dwarven Kingdoms were close allies, so it stands to reason that they aided eachother in the conflcit, wherever possible. 

The darkspawn already make incursions to the surface; most of them stay underground due to the Song of the Archdemon. You seem to be dismissing the threat as a dwarven problem, which is exactly how virtually every other nation treats the serious threat posed by the darkspawn.

The Darkspawn outside of Blights ARE mostly a Dwarven problem. You know why? Because the Dwarves happen to live in the same habitat as Darkspawns. The Darkspawn are not going to suddenly start surging to the surface just because two remote Dwarven cities fall.
Darkspawn outside of Blights have not proven to be any more of a threat than the odd barbarian and/or pirate raid, in any other way than you won't see the Darkspawn comming. The Darkspawn outside Blights lacks purpose, and are not unified. During a Blight however they change completely, becomming a major threat to every living being.

[dragonflight288]

I know the Dwarven Kingdoms spanned underneath much of the known world. That is not what I asked of you to actually support with facts. I am asking you to support your hypothesis that Darkspawn after the Seventh Blight would start surging to the surface. I did this mostly rhethorically, since I know your hypothesis is completely unsupported... But still...

Sten talks about how some darkspawn come to the surface in Par Vollen, but not in large numbers. Riordan talks about how Darkspawn come to the surface, largely in the Anderfels but also throughout other areas.

Cailan and Loghain both discount it as a blight but instead as a large darkspawn raid, meaning that darkspawn raids are known to happen already on the surface.

The only difference when there are or aren't archdemons leading them is that the archdemons lead them to the surface, and they constantly dig deeper and deeper to follow the 'song', which we know to be true from The Calling, the Mother in Awakening, and Riordan discusses this as well.

If there are no archdemons, the darkspawn wouldn't have a reason to keep digging underground. And they hold all the tunnels of the deep roads, connected to nearly every land on Thedas. There is nothing stopping them from pouring out, and the dwarves are the only line of defense at present, a line of defense that is largely ignored by all surface nations except when it comes to lyrium trade, or as he dwarven noble can assert, "we trade our good steel and ore for this?" when it comes to the silk merchant in the Origin, so they sell more than lyrium.

Without archdemons and without the dwarves, the whole world would suffer under an endless blight. And this is supported by what all the characters already say, both in the novel The Calling as well as the games.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sooo you start out saying that Darkspawn are already attacking the surface world, but then you make a 180 and claim that the Dwarves are the only ones holding them back right now....

So which is it?

You don't have to answer that because it is obvious. The Dwarves are NOT holding back the Darkspawn. Or rather they are only holding them back from those two particular exists from the Deep Roads. The removal of tehse two blocks would change little to nothing for the world at large.

And without Archdemons the Darkspawn would also lose all sense of coherence and unity, and would war amongst eachother, just like they do between Blights.

And the hypothesis is decidedly NOT supported, by the fact that it is SHARED by others. They may be of the same opinion, but they base none of it on fact.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sooo you start out saying that Darkspawn are already attacking the surface world, but then you make a 180 and claim that the Dwarves are the only ones holding them back right now....

So which is it?

You don't have to answer that because it is obvious. The Dwarves are NOT holding back the Darkspawn. Or rather they are only holding them back from those two particular exists from the Deep Roads. The removal of tehse two blocks would change little to nothing for the world at large.

And without Archdemons the Darkspawn would also lose all sense of coherence and unity, and would war amongst eachother, just like they do between Blights.

And the hypothesis is decidedly NOT supported, by the fact that it is SHARED by others. They may be of the same opinion, but they base none of it on fact.

I didn't 180, you're missing my point.

I was saying that darkspawn raids do happen. They have to get ogres, hurlocks and shriek broodmothers somehow because they are used in their army, and they do have near full access to the surface.

However, the archdemon song keeps most darkspawn in the deep roads, and the dwarves are truly the only ones holding the line and keeping them from advancing further.

A blight proves that darksawn can simply bypass the dwarves and head to the surface if they so choose, and they always do this when an archdemon leads them.

If the last two archdemons are found and killed in blights, there would no longer be anything keeping the darkspawn down there, and they could simply pour onto the surface regardless if the dwarves are destroyed at that point or not. But for now, while most darkspawn dig, the dwarves are only line of defense from a horde hitting the surface compared to small raiding parties that we already know happen from the games and books.

The darkspawn aren't invading the surface regularly, like they do Orzammar, which you seem to think is what I'm saying, but if the Surface decides each time to simply wait and fight them until all the archdemons are dead, they will ultimately end up with a never-ending blight regardless of the dwarves.

So I think they should aid the dwarves whenever it isn't a bight to help push back the darkspawn, retake lost thaigs, and maybe wipe out all the broodmothers. Such an endeavor would take a unification of nations and many long years of war, but doing nothing will end up with a never-ending blight.

So no, I didn't 180 or contradict myself. The surface has an occasional darkspawn raiding party, they may take a few women from an alienage or a caravan, retreat back underground, and have a few new thousand darkspawn being born within a few years.

But the surface doesn't care since it isn't full hordes or blights.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Dwarves OBVIOUSLY aren't holding the line if Darkspawn raids occur on the surface...

And if the last two Archdemons were found and killed, then there would no logner be anything motivating the Darkspawn to the surface either. So show me indisputable proof that without Archdemons that the Darkspawn will become a greater threat to the surface. Because so far you have presented none.

What however is more likely as to why the Dwarves are attacked regularly, is because they actually live in the same habitat as the Darkspawn do. Otherwise the Darkspawn seems to only seldomly attack, and otherwise just fight amongst themselves.

Also, considering that the Dwarves have held the status quo for over a thousand years, it would seem that the Dwarves are infact not quite as losing as they might sound like. And if they are indeed being defeated, then it is by themselves and not the Darkspawn.

[dragonflight288]

The Dwarves OBVIOUSLY aren't holding the line if Darkspawn raids occur on the surface...

And yet all the surface discounts darkspawn as a mere 'dwarven problem' when it isn't a blight. Heck, even after the fourth blight, the surface in general figured that since so many darkspawn was killed that the darkspawn were extinct and no longer a problem, part of the reason they were so bamboozled at a darkspawn horde showing up in the Kokari Wilds (eavesdropping on random soldiers). And the dwarves acknowledge they're holding the line because the darkspawn are ever advancing on them them, while most keep digging.

The raids I spoke are likely highly infrequent since you only need one woman to make a whole army of darkspawn, thousands in a single lifetime. Just hit a caravan and if you kill everyone most surface kingdoms would simply dismiss it as a bandit raid and not think much of it.

And if the last two Archdemons were found and killed, then there would no logner be anything motivating the Darkspawn to the surface either. So show me indisputable proof that without Archdemons that the Darkspawn will become a greater threat to the surface. Because so far you have presented none.

I have shown you that the darkspawn are always advancing. They advanced on the dwarves at the height of their own glory, and now Orzammar and Kal Sharok are the only thaigs remaining. Just two. Out of what used to be thousands. When it isn't a blight, they are always advancing and are nearly always near the gates of Orzammar. In Origins the guards talk about how so few darkspawn they've seen lately, when we know they're all on the surface at that point, so we know they're constantly advancing.

What however is more likely as to why the Dwarves are attacked regularly, is because they actually live in the same habitat as the Darkspawn do. Otherwise the Darkspawn seems to only seldomly attack, and otherwise just fight amongst themselves.

Other than the Architect and the Mother, we have next to no examples of darkspawn killing each other. None. These aren't the orcs and goblins of Moria and Dog Uldur in Lord of the Rings. Darkspawn don't seem to be their own worst enemies. Unless we see more examples, or you provide evidence that the darkspawn fight amongst themselves, then my point still stands.

You my wish to discredit my argument, but you would have to invalidate both Dwarven origins and the entire dwarven history of losing battle after battle.

Also, considering that the Dwarves have held the status quo for over a thousand years, it would seem that the Dwarves are infact not quite as losing as they might sound like. And if they are indeed being defeated, then it is by themselves and not the Darkspawn.

You may have missed the fact that only two thaigs remain of the once vast Dwarven Empire, or that all sources agree that when it isn't a blight, the darkspawn are always at the gates. Or everyone saying the dwarves are losing ground inch by inch, and even Oghren saying it's only a matter of time until they lose.

Or the fact that dwarven nobles and warriors are more likely to kill each other in a proving than against the darkspawn, and tradition dictates that only a small number of them can fight, period, so most dwarves aren't fighting either.

To make the claim that the dwarves aren't losing, you'd have to provide evidence that they are in fact, winning and regaining ground.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 07 janvier 2014 - 11:20 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Dwarves OBVIOUSLY aren't holding the line if Darkspawn raids occur on the surface...

And yet all the surface discounts darkspawn as a mere 'dwarven problem' when it isn't a blight. Heck, even after the fourth blight, the surface in general figured that since so many darkspawn was killed that the darkspawn were extinct and no longer a problem, part of the reason they were so bamboozled at a darkspawn horde showing up in the Kokari Wilds (eavesdropping on random soldiers). And the dwarves acknowledge they're holding the line because the darkspawn are ever advancing on them them, while most keep digging.

The raids I spoke are likely highly infrequent since you only need one woman to make a whole army of darkspawn, thousands in a single lifetime. Just hit a caravan and if you kill everyone most surface kingdoms would simply dismiss it as a bandit raid and not think much of it. 

The Fereldans thoguht that the Darkspawn were extinct. The Darkspawn continued to raid the Anderfels after the Fourth Blight, so I doubt that the Anders ever thought that the Darkspawn were extinct.

dragonflight288 wrote...

And if the last two Archdemons were found and killed, then there would no logner be anything motivating the Darkspawn to the surface either. So show me indisputable proof that without Archdemons that the Darkspawn will become a greater threat to the surface. Because so far you have presented none.

I have shown you that the darkspawn are always advancing. They advanced on the dwarves at the height of their own glory, and now Orzammar and Kal Sharok are the only thaigs remaining. Just two. Out of what used to be thousands. When it isn't a blight, they are always advancing and are nearly always near the gates of Orzammar. In Origins the guards talk about how so few darkspawn they've seen lately, when we know they're all on the surface at that point, so we know they're constantly advancing. 

I have no doubt that the Dwarves are fighting the Darkspawn on a regular basis. I am saying that the reason this happens, is because both races happens to live underground. Hell, theoretically both places could be build right on top of the remaining Old Gods, explaining the Darkspawn interest in the Dwarves.
However, the last 1000 years of unchanged stalemate, shows that the Dwarves are not losing because of Darkspawn pressure (unless the Darkspawn are going for a ridiculously slow war of attrition), but rather to their own customs and culture.

dragonflight288 wrote...

What however is more likely as to why the Dwarves are attacked regularly, is because they actually live in the same habitat as the Darkspawn do. Otherwise the Darkspawn seems to only seldomly attack, and otherwise just fight amongst themselves.

Other than the Architect and the Mother, we have next to no examples of darkspawn killing each other. None. These aren't the orcs and goblins of Moria and Dog Uldur in Lord of the Rings. Darkspawn don't seem to be their own worst enemies. Unless we see more examples, or you provide evidence that the darkspawn fight amongst themselves, then my point still stands.

You my wish to discredit my argument, but you would have to invalidate both Dwarven origins and the entire dwarven history of losing battle after battle. 

The DA:O epilogue quite clearly says that after the Archdemon falls, the Darkspawn Horde disperses into roving warbands who prey upon the land and eachother.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Also, considering that the Dwarves have held the status quo for over a thousand years, it would seem that the Dwarves are infact not quite as losing as they might sound like. And if they are indeed being defeated, then it is by themselves and not the Darkspawn.

You may have missed the fact that only two thaigs remain of the once vast Dwarven Empire, or that all sources agree that when it isn't a blight, the darkspawn are always at the gates. Or everyone saying the dwarves are losing ground inch by inch, and even Oghren saying it's only a matter of time until they lose.

Or the fact that dwarven nobles and warriors are more likely to kill each other in a proving than against the darkspawn, and tradition dictates that only a small number of them can fight, period, so most dwarves aren't fighting either.

To make the claim that the dwarves aren't losing, you'd have to provide evidence that they are in fact, winning and regaining ground.

I didn't say that Orzammar aren't losing. I am saying that if they are it is probably more because of their own asinine culture than it is because of the Darkspawn pressure. This especially rings true when a king like Behlen can push the Darkspawn back, by simply changing the Dwarven way of waging war.

[MisterJB]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Other than the Architect and the Mother, we have next to no examples of darkspawn killing each other. None. These aren't the orcs and goblins of Moria and Dog Uldur in Lord of the Rings. Darkspawn don't seem to be their own worst enemies. Unless we see more examples, or you provide evidence that the darkspawn fight amongst themselves, then my point still stands.

You my wish to discredit my argument, but you would have to invalidate both Dwarven origins and the entire dwarven history of losing battle after battle. 

The DA:O epilogue quite clearly says that after the Archdemon falls, the Darkspawn Horde disperses into roving warbands who prey upon the land and eachother.

Plus, The World of Thedas page 149 and 150:
"When there isn't an Archdemon to direct the darkspawn, the chain of command breaks down. Alphas become tyrants, splitting the horde amongst themselves and fighting for dominance. Their lack of cohesion is what keeps them from threatening anyone but those who venture close enough to turn their attention away from the infighting."

Also, page 148:
"Young darkspawn are expected to compete with each other to survive. They will try to kill each other,perhaps a natural instinct. This serves to thins out the weaker offspring."

I'm not taking sides but it does seem that darkspawn are as prone to kill each other as Tolkien's orcs and the reason they constantly attack the dwarves is because they share a living space.
Altough, if there were no dwarves, eventually the massive increase in darkspawn numbers could lead to them expanding to the surface and then competing with the humans inbetween Bligths.

Modifié par MisterJB, 07 janvier 2014 - 11:51 .