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[Lost Mercenary]

Has Indocrination survived the firing of the Crucilbe? Could it survive and what are the implications for the future of the galaxy if this is the case?

Discuss

[SwobyJ]

Uh.

[spirosz]

I choose the 'Way of the Indoctrination' path. Commander Dovahkiin at your service.

[CroGamer002]

Actually, that is an interesting question.


I mean, remember that dead Reaper in ME2? That thing was dead, but still kept indoctrinating.

[Forst1999]

Indoctrination often was descriped as the Reapers whispering inside your head. But without whisperers, no whispering.
But people whose brain were completly shattered likely won't recovered so easily.

[Michotic]

The Reaper in ME2 could still Indoctrinate, but it didn't take a Crucible blast. I viewed the Destroy as rendering Reapers completely inert, so nothing could be indoctrinated after they were destroyed. As far as beings already indoctrinated, I couldn't say. At what point is a person no longer a person and a Reaper thrall? Is that the same threshold where the being is destroyed along with the rest of the Reaper forces?

[rapscallioness]

Idk abt the Reapers and their Indoc. signal surviving the Crucible blast, but Leviathan and their fun lil spheres are def still out there.

I mean, srsly, wth is Leviathan gonna do now that the Only thing keeping them in check--the Reapers--is gone? At least in Control you could say Shepalyst could use the Reapers to keep Leviathan in check. In Synth, well.....

But Destroy? Leviathan remains, and is a very real and significant threat. Much more so than dead Reapers and a possible faded Reaper Indoc. signal.

Leviathan can indoctrinate. They will want to reclaim their supposed rightful place in the galaxy.

[JamesFaith]

Maybe yes, just not in current form.

I could imagine that Reapers corpses would become source of some "mental radiation". There would be no more direct orders but their emission would probably cause mental diseases like schizophrenia and such.

[vandalDX]

rapscallioness wrote...

Idk abt the Reapers and their Indoc. signal surviving the Crucible blast, but Leviathan and their fun lil spheres are def still out there.

I mean, srsly, wth is Leviathan gonna do now that the Only thing keeping them in check--the Reapers--is gone? At least in Control you could say Shepalyst could use the Reapers to keep Leviathan in check. In Synth, well.....

But Destroy? Leviathan remains, and is a very real and significant threat. Much more so than dead Reapers and a possible faded Reaper Indoc. signal.

Leviathan can indoctrinate. They will want to reclaim their supposed rightful place in the galaxy.

This is something that I think about every time I read something about the next Mass Effect game.  There is so much lore, and so much clarity about the identity of the Reapers in the Leviathan DLC.  That entire mission and ints content was basically all about two things:

1) Indoctrination as a means of programming both organics and synthetics to act a certain way
2) The fact that the Catalyst jailbroke itself from that programming, and sent the Reapers off on the insane mission of the 50K-year cycle that supposedly ended with Shepard's meeting with it.

The ancient galaxy is still out there, with or without the Reapers.  They're  a drop in the bucket.

Modifié par valhallaVANDAL, 06 janvier 2014 - 05:25 .

[McFlurry598]

SwobyJ wrote...

Uh.

[Han Shot First]

Assuming Destroy was chosen, there is no Reaper left to give orders or instructions. That would mean the end of indoctrination as far denial of free will goes.

That being said long term (or rushed) indoctrination could result in brain damage to varying degrees. That might not be reversible.

[rapscallioness]

valhallaVANDAL wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

Idk abt the Reapers and their Indoc. signal surviving the Crucible blast, but Leviathan and their fun lil spheres are def still out there.

I mean, srsly, wth is Leviathan gonna do now that the Only thing keeping them in check--the Reapers--is gone? At least in Control you could say Shepalyst could use the Reapers to keep Leviathan in check. In Synth, well.....

But Destroy? Leviathan remains, and is a very real and significant threat. Much more so than dead Reapers and a possible faded Reaper Indoc. signal.

Leviathan can indoctrinate. They will want to reclaim their supposed rightful place in the galaxy.

This is something that I think about every time I read something about the next Mass Effect game.  There is so much lore, and so much clarity about the identity of the Reapers in the Leviathan DLC.  That entire mission and ints content was basically all about two things:

1) Indoctrination as a means of programming both organics and synthetics to act a certain way
2) The fact that the Catalyst jailbroke itself from that programming, and sent the Reapers off on the insane mission of the 50K-year cycle that supposedly ended with Shepard's meeting with it.

The ancient galaxy is still out there, with or without the Reapers.  They're  a drop in the bucket.

Yes, to the bolded. Very much so.

And whereas I think the OP is an interesting concern, what abt that stuff from the Reaper corpses? But to me the real threat, and definite possibility of any future indoctrination--and oppression thru it, would come from Leviathan.

[rapscallioness]

I see the Reaper corpses as something like hazardous waste material at this point. I'm gonna assume the signal was shut off, and depending on how far into indoctrination a being was would decide how well they recovered from it.

But what abt those that are kinda still affected and attached to the "signal"? Like Shiala and the Zhu' Hope colonists. The Thorian was slain, but the effects on the colonist remained. Less, but def still there.

It was due to a parasitic, spore like process, but perhaps there's something similar with the Reaper indoctrination? Like it could leave a certain residual, Reaper-y "spore" that still affected ppl.

The colonists still had the pain, could feel each other, shared knowledge! So, cuz Shiala had been a commando, that knowledge transferred to all the colonists. At the time of the war, it gave them an edge, but even in the war asset/codex it was mentioned that the long term affects of this might not be so beneficial.

We just don't know.

[rapscallioness]

Last post, and it's slightly OT so I apologize in advance. But my God, and what abt the Husks?

My God! In Control...I mean, they are the ultimate indoctrinated (I think, unless it's a diff process. Not so sure, tbh.) Regardless, are they just gonna be ramblin' and shamblin' abt?

Is there any awareness left to painfully remind them of what they once were, and what they did? Where are they gonna go? What are they gonna do? Somehow I just don;t see them being accepted into the larger society again.

Are they gonna form lil colonies, like Leper colonies where all fear to tread? Husk colonies on the fringes, ruled by Banshee High Priestesses?

There's just so much story still there....

Alright I'm out. Three posts in row is my limit. >_>

[ImaginaryMatter]

This is my theory, but the default protocol for Indoctrinated people with no Reapers around seems to be impaling themselves on the Dragon Teeth. Since the Indoctrination Signal seems to emit from even a dead Reaper it seems like anyone who goes near a dead Reaper after Destroy would begin feeling the effects of Indoctrination (ringing, hallucinations, paranoia, etc) before eventually turning themselves to husks.

[vandalDX]

rapscallioness wrote...

valhallaVANDAL wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

Idk abt the Reapers and their Indoc. signal surviving the Crucible blast, but Leviathan and their fun lil spheres are def still out there.

I mean, srsly, wth is Leviathan gonna do now that the Only thing keeping them in check--the Reapers--is gone? At least in Control you could say Shepalyst could use the Reapers to keep Leviathan in check. In Synth, well.....

But Destroy? Leviathan remains, and is a very real and significant threat. Much more so than dead Reapers and a possible faded Reaper Indoc. signal.

Leviathan can indoctrinate. They will want to reclaim their supposed rightful place in the galaxy.

This is something that I think about every time I read something about the next Mass Effect game.  There is so much lore, and so much clarity about the identity of the Reapers in the Leviathan DLC.  That entire mission and ints content was basically all about two things:

1) Indoctrination as a means of programming both organics and synthetics to act a certain way
2) The fact that the Catalyst jailbroke itself from that programming, and sent the Reapers off on the insane mission of the 50K-year cycle that supposedly ended with Shepard's meeting with it.

The ancient galaxy is still out there, with or without the Reapers.  They're  a drop in the bucket.

Yes, to the bolded. Very much so.

And whereas I think the OP is an interesting concern, what abt that stuff from the Reaper corpses? But to me the real threat, and definite possibility of any future indoctrination--and oppression thru it, would come from Leviathan.

I started a new playthrough back in December (and I'm about halfway through ME2 right now) and have noticed a few things in this vein:

1) On the planet Dis, there is a discussion of the Leviathan of Dis, an ancient Leviathan corpse that "disappears" (the writer actually uses the quotations) and the batarians deny ever having found, even when the salarians show research data that strongly suggests its existence.  

2) No one ever explains why all the mechs are going insane in ME2.  It has slowed down my playthrough considerably as I'm sort of being weird about it.  There are all kinds of instances where it's happening, and IIRC, the dialogue that best discusses the commonality of synthetics breaking protocols and going insane is the Leviathan conversation.

3) No guarantees were ever given that the removal of the Reaper threat would remove the force that created them.  Vigil says specifically, and we later see in ME3, that the Reapers offer no chance for surrender.  They behave exactly like a program carrying out its protocols, just as both the Catalyst and the Leviathan say they do (and, I suppose, the Catalyst itself does), and just as both the insane mechs in ME2 and indocrinated organics do.  There's a lot of similarities in the way these things function within the ME story.

With all of this in mind, I am especially excited to play the Leviathan DLC again.  I think it holds lots of ideas from which future games will draw.

Modifié par valhallaVANDAL, 06 janvier 2014 - 02:30 .

[Daemul]

As we found out from Ann in Leviathan a piece of Sovereign can still Indoctrinate, so the answer to the OP's question is yes.

As one of the Cerberus research team member on the Derelict Reaper noted, "The god's mind is gone, but it still dreams".

Modifié par Daemul, 06 janvier 2014 - 02:37 .

[Oni Changas]

We defeated the reapers? I remember being told to make a deal with Wayne Brady.

[vandalDX]

OniTYME wrote...

We defeated the reapers? I remember being told to make a deal with Wayne Brady.

Maybe, but that's really more of an ending-related discussion especially with regard to the four choices.  What I'm arguing here, in the spirit of the OP, is that if the Reapers were just carrying out orders based on a corrupt AI/VI/synthetic program like the Catalyst, then they can only be a symptom of a causal force much farther- and further-reaching.  It is my hope that the next Mass Effect deals with that force.

[rapscallioness]

valhallaVANDAL wrote...

*snip*

I started a new playthrough back in December (and I'm about halfway through ME2 right now) and have noticed a few things in this vein:

1) On the planet Dis, there is a discussion of the Leviathan of Dis, an ancient Leviathan corpse that "disappears" (the writer actually uses the quotations) and the batarians deny ever having found, even when the salarians show research data that strongly suggests its existence.  

2) No one ever explains why all the mechs are going insane in ME2.  It has slowed down my playthrough considerably as I'm sort of being weird about it.  There are all kinds of instances where it's happening, and IIRC, the dialogue that best discusses the commonality of synthetics breaking protocols and going insane is the Leviathan conversation.

3) No guarantees were ever given that the removal of the Reaper threat would remove the force that created them.  Vigil says specifically, and we later see in ME3, that the Reapers offer no chance for surrender.  They behave exactly like a program carrying out its protocols, just as both the Catalyst and the Leviathan say they do (and, I suppose, the Catalyst itself does), and just as both the insane mechs in ME2 and indocrinated organics do.  There's a lot of similarities in the way these things function within the ME story.

With all of this in mind, I am especially excited to play the Leviathan DLC again.  I think it holds lots of ideas from which future games will draw.

I never really thought abt the Reaper control of synthetics, or rather Catalyst control. I imagine sum would willingly make a deal w/the Reapers and acquire the upgrades. Whereas others maybe more "primitive" could easily just be hacked in a way.

Interesting. In my PT's, tho, they're all supposed to be wiped out. But..Idk.

Very interesting abt the idea in the bolded. So, you think maybe the Catalyst could still be slinking about in sum form? The Reapers were only tools for it after all. A means to an end. The Catalyst itself seemed more like...a signal, or something like that.

I guess like w/the Geth and Quarians if you make peace. The Geth, being software, uploaded themselves into the Quarian suits to help them w/acclimating to the environment. The Geth themselves were never really physical. They just used platforms.

Tbh, I'm a lil confused how the Geth in the Qurian suits would be affected by the Destroy beam. Does it disable them as well? Or, because they're now integrated into a new platform, the beam passed over them? I'm not sure exactly what the beam afftecs. The hardware? The software? Or, both?

Too many questions.

[rapscallioness]

Daemul wrote...

As we found out from Ann in Leviathan a piece of Sovereign can still Indoctrinate, so the answer to the OP's question is yes.

As one of the Cerberus research team member on the Derelict Reaper noted, "The god's mind is gone, but it still dreams".

And this goes back to my question. What exactly did we disable if chose Destroy? (I haven't considered Synth or Control yet in this. Not really).

Did we disable just the hardware? Or did we disable the software/signal, too? That may be kinda important. Lol!

[DeinonSlayer]

Tekeli-li!
Tekeli-li!

[vandalDX]

rapscallioness wrote...

*snip*

I never really thought abt the Reaper control of synthetics, or rather Catalyst control. I imagine sum would willingly make a deal w/the Reapers and acquire the upgrades. Whereas others maybe more "primitive" could easily just be hacked in a way.

Interesting. In my PT's, tho, they're all supposed to be wiped out. But..Idk.

The Crucible, if the product of thousands of cycles, is the means by which Shepard can even have the chance to make the deal, is itself another synthetic product of organic technology.  It's a variable introduced into the Solution that the Catalyst's equation generates and thus the three choices (if not an attempt to indoctrinate Shepard) could be considered its attempt to solve for the new variable.  The Solution, as per the cylces, doesn't work anymore, because of, well, the Crucible.

Very interesting abt the idea in the bolded. So, you think maybe the Catalyst could still be slinking about in sum form? The Reapers were only tools for it after all. A means to an end. The Catalyst itself seemed more like...a signal, or something like that.

I think that the Catalyst is clearly the program that the Leviathan talks about, corrupted (on a much larger scale) the way that the geth and the ME2 mechs are.  Given its weird projection as the Starchild, I do not think that its home is the Citadel (still a mystery, given the geography of it after Shepard goes up the beam).  It also seems to be adversarial on a much more abstract level; we don't even know what it is, other than some kind of control-protocol for the Reapers (that being a Prothean term for the Solution, as per Sovereign) that the Leviathan race and its ilk generated as some kind of experiment, which failed heavily for billions of years by follwowing corrupted protocols, slaughtering countless organic races every 50K years.  Egg's on your face, ancient races.

Tbh, I'm a lil confused how the Geth in the Qurian suits would be affected by the Destroy beam. Does it disable them as well? Or, because they're now integrated into a new platform, the beam passed over them? I'm not sure exactly what the beam afftecs. The hardware? The software? Or, both?

Hard to say on that one.  EDI's AI program, and her platform, are gone if you choose Destroy, right?

Modifié par valhallaVANDAL, 06 janvier 2014 - 08:09 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Without the reapers to tell their indoctrinated servants what to do, they simply starved. That's what Vigil said in ME1. Apparently they missed them so much they stopped eating.

Reaper tech is based upon Leviathan tech, right, hence wouldn't Leviathan tech be destroyed as well? The wave will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Technology upon which you depend will be destroyed. Well the Leviathans depend upon the orbs -- bye bye. And the Leviathans don't seem to be capable of manual manipulation of objects so they need thralls, right? So since we know where they are, we don't repair that relay. It's that simple.

[Han Shot First]

Daemul wrote...

As we found out from Ann in Leviathan a piece of Sovereign can still Indoctrinate, so the answer to the OP's question is yes.

As one of the Cerberus research team member on the Derelict Reaper noted, "The god's mind is gone, but it still dreams".

Individual pieces of Reaper tech can sometimes start the process of indoctrination, but the orders aren't coming from the tech itself. The orders are coming from the Reapers, out in dark space. Without the Reapers, there is no indoctrination. You might have people 'wired' for indoctrination, but the switch is off.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 06 janvier 2014 - 09:05 .