65 réponses à ce sujet

[vandalDX]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Without the reapers to tell their indoctrinated servants what to do, they simply starved. That's what Vigil said in ME1. Apparently they missed them so much they stopped eating.

Reaper tech is based upon Leviathan tech, right, hence wouldn't Leviathan tech be destroyed as well? The wave will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Technology upon which you depend will be destroyed. Well the Leviathans depend upon the orbs -- bye bye. And the Leviathans don't seem to be capable of manual manipulation of objects so they need thralls, right? So since we know where they are, we don't repair that relay. It's that simple.

And thus the Leviathans go into hiding, as well as whataver other ancient races decided to retreat beyond the edge of the solar system, when the Solution targeted them.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

right and they're living in the ocean on that water world, and on perhaps other undiscovered worlds in the far corners of the galaxy and haven't been seen or heard from until the Leviathan DLC came out simply to justify the existence of Starbrat. The "ships" they used needed maintenance over the past billion years are long out of service. They're stuck wherever they are. They may be "living fossils" but I seriously doubt they live a billion years. More like they evolved into what ever suited their environment. Something that large would have huge food requirements, so there couldn't be that many. Shepard should not be afraid. She and any ancestors will be dead long before anyone finds them.

[vandalDX]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

right and they're living in the ocean on that water world, and on perhaps other undiscovered worlds in the far corners of the galaxy and haven't been seen or heard from until the Leviathan DLC came out simply to justify the existence of Starbrat. The "ships" they used needed maintenance over the past billion years are long out of service. They're stuck wherever they are. They may be "living fossils" but I seriously doubt they live a billion years. More like they evolved into what ever suited their environment. Something that large would have huge food requirements, so there couldn't be that many. Shepard should not be afraid. She and any ancestors will be dead long before anyone finds them.

Re; attrition of ancient races:


The denial reeks of indoctrination.

[Nightwriter]

I have heard people who don't feel right picking Control chiefly because Reapers indoctrinate just by existing, and nothing in that ending really addresses that or states that it is turned off after Shepard's technoghost takes over. So yeah I think it presents a potential problem if you put thought into it. I don't think the endings were really built for scrutiny, though. It's probably one of those things the game just expects you to assume is taken care of.

[Lost Mercenary]

 

Han Shot First wrote...

Individual pieces of Reaper tech can sometimes start the process of indoctrination, but the orders aren't coming from the tech itself. The orders are coming from the Reapers, out in dark space. Without the Reapers, there is no indoctrination. You might have people 'wired' for indoctrination, but the switch is off.

A lot of the discussion here seems to focus on events Post Destroy. But what about Post Control? The Reapers are still very much active but with new guidance from Shepalyst. In what form is Indocrination going to take now? I very much doubt it can be switched off since even small, broken pieces of dead Reapers emit the signal.

This actually worries me a bit more than Destroy. Shepalyst, in theory, could manipulate the entire galaxy into following its "guidance" instead of using the Reapers as a mere deterrent.

Modifié par lostmercenary99, 06 janvier 2014 - 10:23 .

[SwobyJ]

Bioware is just turning Mass Effect into Shin Megami Tensei.

Law, Chaos (the two main ones), Neutral, Utopia, Freedom... no one truly wins! Ha.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I always thought the Leviathan of Dis was just a reference to Farscape.

[SwobyJ]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

I always thought the Leviathan of Dis was just a reference to Farscape.

I think it was too, but you'd be surprised how very very much of everything in Mass Effect is a clear or obscure reference to other sci-fi.

Leviathan may have started as a Farscape thingy, but by the ME3 DLC, it's more of a Babylon 5 callout.

[Han Shot First]

lostmercenary99 wrote...

 

Han Shot First wrote...

Individual pieces of Reaper tech can sometimes start the process of indoctrination, but the orders aren't coming from the tech itself. The orders are coming from the Reapers, out in dark space. Without the Reapers, there is no indoctrination. You might have people 'wired' for indoctrination, but the switch is off.

A lot of the discussion here seems to focus on events Post Destroy. But what about Post Control? The Reapers are still very much active but with new guidance from Shepalyst. In what form is Indocrination going to take now? I very much doubt it can be switched off since even small, broken pieces of dead Reapers emit the signal.

This actually worries me a bit more than Destroy. Shepalyst, in theory, could manipulate the entire galaxy into following its "guidance" instead of using the Reapers as a mere deterrent.

By the switch being off I mean that the Reapers are no longer around to indoctrinate post-Destroy. Reaper tech capable of preparing a person for indoctrination *might* still exist (alternatively, the red wave might have disabled it) but at best that person would just be susceptible to outside control. The control itself was being exerted by the Reapers, who no longer exist. So for the moment at least anyone who stumbles across such tech should be safe. There would be no one to command them.

Assuming for a moment  however that tech capable of preparing people for indoctrination still exists, it does raise the question of whether the Leviathans could seize control of these vulnerable people. Or whether some other entity could find the means to controlling these people (sort of like TIM and Henry Lawson) and use it in attempt to launch a coup and seize power. The Reapers are gone, but could someone else fill that vacuum?

[Han Shot First]

lostmercenary99 wrote...

 

Han Shot First wrote...

Individual pieces of Reaper tech can sometimes start the process of indoctrination, but the orders aren't coming from the tech itself. The orders are coming from the Reapers, out in dark space. Without the Reapers, there is no indoctrination. You might have people 'wired' for indoctrination, but the switch is off.

A lot of the discussion here seems to focus on events Post Destroy. But what about Post Control? The Reapers are still very much active but with new guidance from Shepalyst. In what form is Indocrination going to take now? I very much doubt it can be switched off since even small, broken pieces of dead Reapers emit the signal.

This actually worries me a bit more than Destroy. Shepalyst, in theory, could manipulate the entire galaxy into following its "guidance" instead of using the Reapers as a mere deterrent.

By the switch being off I mean that the Reapers are no longer around to indoctrinate post-Destroy. Reaper tech capable of preparing a person for indoctrination *might* still exist (alternatively, the red wave might have disabled it) but at best that person would just be susceptible to outside control. The control itself was being exerted by the Reapers, who no longer exist. So for the moment at least anyone who stumbles across such tech should be safe. There would be no one to command them.

Assuming for a moment  however that tech capable of preparing people for indoctrination still exists, it does raise the question of whether the Leviathans could seize control of these vulnerable people. Or whether some other entity could find the means to controlling people 'wired' for indoctrination (sort of like TIM and Henry Lawson) and use it in attempt to launch a coup and seize power. The Reapers are gone, but could someone else fill that vacuum?

Modifié par Han Shot First, 07 janvier 2014 - 05:41 .

[shodiswe]

As I see it, indoctrination was the result of thoguhts and voices beign projected into the minds of it's victims. Like that Asari scientist, she was fairly normal when she wasn't being controled.

They likely won't be running around killing people unless ofcourse the trauma and abuse has turned them into crazy psychos. If they do something bad then it won't be the indoctrination itself that cases it but rather the PTSD that's making them somewhat unstable mentaly.

The actual voices are gone, but the traumas and possibly nightmares will haunt them forever. Some who got really used to the voices might immagine they hear them as some kind of psychological trauma.

The actual indoctrination is gone but the psychological traumas may still exist to different degrees.

Synthesis might possibly be able to provide some aid and support for some of the victims. Simply because others will understand their traumas better and will be able to treat and support them better.

AI Shepard might not be able to provide that support in Control, I guess shepard could provide some information but it might not be as effective.

Modifié par shodiswe, 07 janvier 2014 - 09:21 .

[SwobyJ]

That's only the signal shodiswe. There's various forms.

[mybudgee]

You all are indoctrinated

[rapscallioness]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Without the reapers to tell their indoctrinated servants what to do, they simply starved. That's what Vigil said in ME1. Apparently they missed them so much they stopped eating.

Reaper tech is based upon Leviathan tech, right, hence wouldn't Leviathan tech be destroyed as well? The wave will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Technology upon which you depend will be destroyed. Well the Leviathans depend upon the orbs -- bye bye. And the Leviathans don't seem to be capable of manual manipulation of objects so they need thralls, right? So since we know where they are, we don't repair that relay. It's that simple.

Idk what the Leviathan spheres are actually made of, or how they're made. The Reapers indoctrination thing is based on Leviathan's, but Idk if it uses the same means.

Basically, Idk if the spheres and how they operate necessarily qualify as Reaper Tech. Maybe the Catalyst and Reapers came up w/sum other code that simply mimics this process.

Perhaps  there is a codex out there abt what the spheres are made of exactly?

[rapscallioness]

Han Shot First wrote...

lostmercenary99 wrote...

 

Han Shot First wrote...

Individual pieces of Reaper tech can sometimes start the process of indoctrination, but the orders aren't coming from the tech itself. The orders are coming from the Reapers, out in dark space. Without the Reapers, there is no indoctrination. You might have people 'wired' for indoctrination, but the switch is off.

A lot of the discussion here seems to focus on events Post Destroy. But what about Post Control? The Reapers are still very much active but with new guidance from Shepalyst. In what form is Indocrination going to take now? I very much doubt it can be switched off since even small, broken pieces of dead Reapers emit the signal.

This actually worries me a bit more than Destroy. Shepalyst, in theory, could manipulate the entire galaxy into following its "guidance" instead of using the Reapers as a mere deterrent.

By the switch being off I mean that the Reapers are no longer around to indoctrinate post-Destroy. Reaper tech capable of preparing a person for indoctrination *might* still exist (alternatively, the red wave might have disabled it) but at best that person would just be susceptible to outside control. The control itself was being exerted by the Reapers, who no longer exist. So for the moment at least anyone who stumbles across such tech should be safe. There would be no one to command them.

Assuming for a moment  however that tech capable of preparing people for indoctrination still exists, it does raise the question of whether the Leviathans could seize control of these vulnerable people. Or whether some other entity could find the means to controlling people 'wired' for indoctrination (sort of like TIM and Henry Lawson) and use it in attempt to launch a coup and seize power. The Reapers are gone, but could someone else fill that vacuum?

Yeah, you know someone's always gonna try trot in and fill the vacuum. And w/the galaxy in such a weakened state--it's gonna look ripe for the picking.

I wonder, tho, how this would play out in Control. Is Shepalyst an involved "god"? Or is it more like the Maker in DA, distant and turned away?

In Synth, I wonder just how much of the personality is affected? If the process and result is more of a hybrid of 2 states of being, would ppl still have a certain individualism? Ther fore, not necessarily being just all happy, shining ppl geting along. There would still be personal motivations...with upgrades.

And is there any difference in the outcome if a person was cool, or dastardly to begin with. Does the process of Synth change all of that? Or is there still sum of the individual left?

[Obadiah]

What is "indoctrination"? The codex entry seems non specific, and mostly describes its effects, but what is it really?

[ImaginaryMatter]

Obadiah wrote...

What is "indoctrination"? The codex entry seems non specific, and mostly describes its effects, but what is it really?

To me, in ME1 at least, Indoctrination seemed to serve as some sort of truth serum. The waves emitted by a Reaper somehow damage or effect a physical part of an Organic leaving it open to Reaper 'suggestions'. I think how this works is that the Reaper has to tell the subject what to do. The more heavily Indoctrinated they are (or the more damaged theri limbic system) the greater the suggestions that can be given that contradict the Organic's original believes.

So when Shepard finally confronts Saren and convinces him that he is fully Indoctrinated, Saren cannot abort the plan to open the Relay because Sovereign told him he must follow through with the plan; however Saren can commit suicide because Sovereign didn't say anything regarding that.

I guess it is similar to hypnosis only with stages. In the early stages only light 'sugestions' can work. In Saren's case again maybe Sovereign's implanted the idea that fighting the Reapers was pointless and they might be merciful. In later stages though it basically becomes mind control although by this point the subjects brain is mush.

[rapscallioness]

Lesse, Rana Thanopolis (sp?) in ME1 described Reaper Indoc. as a signal that emanates from the ship itself. The longer and closer you are to it, the more power it has. So, it does seem like sum kinda "wave" that diminishes with farther proximity.

So, I imagine it's really sum kinda pulse--electromagnetic? lol! Idk--that the Reaper sends out that screws w/your brainwaves.

Or, maybe like a really high pitched sound wave that can cause physical symptoms after prolonged exposure.

But it def. sounded tech based. Nothing too weird, or mystical.

[Invisible Man]

first, the geth are pure software, so the cat has to affect reaper code, otherwise the geth wouldn't be effected, even if you simply destroyed their bodies or tech. though if you destroyed all geth tech everywhere, then they might die having no hardware to plug into.

as for indoctrination, I always figured it had sort of active & passive modes. meaning if an indoctrinated subject wasn't given specific orders, they still acted with the reapers interests in mind. simply because their thought-processes had been corrupted, though indoctrinated people could also be given directed, um... direction. as in go there, shoot him in the back of the head, then go there, do this, etc.

even though I have no idea if any of that is true it's the best guess I've got.

so if I'm right on that second point, it could mean that if indoctrinated individuals are still around, they might still be acting against the galactic community. even without direct input from the reapers.

now, as for the past cycles, as the indoctrinated just stopped functioning and died of starvation. what level of indoctrination did they suffer from? remember as the energy field takes a stronger hold over the subject they become less capable, this also happens over prolonged exposure to the reaper signal, so even if they didn't need to exert total control over a subject, it would still take root over time. so it's quite possible that all those countless dead beings from past cycles just sat down and died cause their brains had been deep-fried by that time. if there are still indoctrinated agents around they might have enough of their minds remaining to allow them to continue function without direct contact with the reapers. just some thought candy.

Modifié par Invisible Man, 07 janvier 2014 - 06:56 .

[rapscallioness]

Invisible Man wrote...

first, the geth are pure software, so the cat has to affect reaper code, otherwise the geth wouldn't be effected, even if you simply destroyed their bodies or tech. though if you destroyed all geth tech everywhere, then they might die having no hardware to plug into.

as for indoctrination, I always figured it had sort of active & passive modes. meaning if an indoctrinated subject wasn't given specific orders, they still acted with the reapers interests in mind. simply because their thought-processes had been corrupted, though indoctrinated people could also be given directed, um... direction. as in go there, shoot him in the back of the head, then go there, do this, etc.

even though I have no idea if any of that is true it's the best guess I've got.

so if I'm right on that second point, it could mean that if indoctrinated individuals are still around, they might still be acting against the galactic community. even without direct input from the reapers.

now, as for the past cycles, as the indoctrinated just stopped functioning and died of starvation. what level of indoctrination did they suffer from? remember as the energy field takes a stronger hold over the subject they become less capable, this also happens over prolonged exposure to the reaper signal, so even if they didn't need to exert total control over a subject, it would still take root over time. so it's quite possible that all those countless dead beings from past cycles just sat down and died cause their brains had been deep-fried by that time. if there are still indoctrinated agents around they might have enough of their minds remaining to allow them to continue function without direct contact with the reapers. just some thought candy.

what if the the geth, the only geth, that survived a destroy choice were the ones uploaded into the quarian suits?

So, the beam would have to affect reaper code...some kinda way, but what if it didn't? Though, it seems it did affect the Reaper "code", cuz in destroy ec, the reapers didn't blow up, they rather kinda clunked down like they got unplugged. The shell remained, as far as I saw.

The husks, tho were disentegrated.

[SwobyJ]

There is signal based indoctrination (more pure interference of organic minds).

Then there is:
-huskification (which is actually super-rapid implant replacement indoctrination)
-nanite based indoctrination (which huskifying is just the most rapid form of)
-implant based indoctrination (which is a more solid and reliable, yet damaging form of nanite based indoctrination)
-assuming direct control (requires either full genetic engineering into accepting huge amounts of tech, or just being almost entirely tech anyway)
-They can probably Enthrall too, but as we see in Leviathan, something like that seems to require a range from an orb, while Reaper Indoctrination or Assuming Control can instead be done even at very, very, very long ranges.

Signals are amplified through mini-QEC-ish methods. The concept is about affecting the organic mind without reducing its use, because a fully synthetic mind, as far as the Reapers' capability or preference is considered, is just a husk.

The signal based indoc is, if we follow conventional lore now, the most based off of Leviathan enthrallment if we ignore assuming control.
However, all the implant/tech/nanite/Dragon's Teeth based stuff is 'new', derived from how the Intelligence (whatever it is) views the method and how it should be improved.

Think of it this way - if the Leviathan created a galaxy of cultish followers who both feared and praised them, the Reapers went further by creating an 'army of pawns' and essentially a more outright religious devotion to themselves by overwriting the mind itself.

And that's what any tech-based (inplant, husking, nantie) Indoctrination does. It doesn't just hypnotize you or whisper into you - it outright converts (remember, QEC) your mind itself, bit by bit, into a person who is entirely on the Reapers' side.

What happens to the real you? Is it just deleted? I dunno. It's my personal belief that in tech based indoc, the subject does exist somewhere in the Reaper (cloud? lol heaven..) and that's the Reapers' justification for doing what they're doing to as. As long as they 'save' (state) us, in some form, that's all the matters to them. The body is a machine, yadda yadda..

Purely signal based indoc is a weaker form of this, but seems to be just as effective and better in most cases for sleeper agents. In signal-based, the subject might, with strong will, maintain themselves somewhere, but it becomes a smaller and smaller room in their mind until it smothers them (Benezia). Tech based indoc is more of a mystery, outside of the Greyson experiments where he found his body itself not responding to things he was intending to do. It's more of a hacking (which might compromise the organic part of mind still), while signal-based seems like closer to a hypnotism mixed with brain mushing and possible insanity

Modifié par SwobyJ, 07 janvier 2014 - 08:51 .

[Invisible Man]

SwobyJ wrote...

There is signal based indoctrination (more pure interference of organic minds).

Then there is:
-huskification (which is actually super-rapid implant replacement indoctrination)
-nanite based indoctrination (which huskifying is just the most rapid form of)
-implant based indoctrination (which is a more solid and reliable, yet damaging form of nanite based indoctrination)
-assuming direct control (requires either full genetic engineering into accepting huge amounts of tech, or just being almost entirely tech anyway)
-They can probably Enthrall too, but as we see in Leviathan, something like that seems to require a range from an orb, while Reaper Indoctrination or Assuming Control can instead be done even at very, very, very long ranges.

Signals are amplified through mini-QEC-ish methods. The concept is about affecting the organic mind without reducing its use, because a fully synthetic mind, as far as the Reapers' capability or preference is considered, is just a husk.

The signal based indoc is, if we follow conventional lore now, the most based off of Leviathan enthrallment if we ignore assuming control.
However, all the implant/tech/nanite/Dragon's Teeth based stuff is 'new', derived from how the Intelligence (whatever it is) views the method and how it should be improved.

Think of it this way - if the Leviathan created a galaxy of cultish followers who both feared and praised them, the Reapers went further by creating an 'army of pawns' and essentially a more outright religious devotion to themselves by overwriting the mind itself.

And that's what any tech-based (inplant, husking, nantie) Indoctrination does. It doesn't just hypnotize you or whisper into you - it outright converts (remember, QEC) your mind itself, bit by bit, into a person who is entirely on the Reapers' side.

What happens to the real you? Is it just deleted? I dunno. It's my personal belief that in tech based indoc, the subject does exist somewhere in the Reaper (cloud? lol heaven..) and that's the Reapers' justification for doing what they're doing to as. As long as they 'save' (state) us, in some form, that's all the matters to them. The body is a machine, yadda yadda..

Purely signal based indoc is a weaker form of this, but seems to be just as effective and better in most cases for sleeper agents. In signal-based, the subject might, with strong will, maintain themselves somewhere, but it becomes a smaller and smaller room in their mind until it smothers them (Benezia). Tech based indoc is more of a mystery, outside of the Greyson experiments where he found his body itself not responding to things he was intending to do. It's more of a hacking (which might compromise the organic part of mind still), while signal-based seems like closer to a hypnotism mixed with brain mushing and possible insanity

is all that stated somewhere? I haven't found it; then again I haven't gone looking for those specific topics.

[SwobyJ]

Information gleaned from:
-the novels
-the comics
-Leviathan DLC
-the main story of each game (especially ME1's Novaria and Citadel, ME2's various conversations, ME3's Sanctuary, etc)

Have you played Leviathan DLC?

Anyway, it's made very clear that 'Indoctrination' is not only a 'signal' in itself, though it can be used that way. Its clearer forms are when nanites in the body get involved, either covertly or through outright machine implantation or eventually generations of genetic engineering, or huskification outright. To huskify is simply a most rapid and throw-away form of indoctrination in its most potent form.

It's all about *control* signals, not just some wave that hits organic minds.

When it is the latter, however, it does keep the organic mind the most 'intact', and therefore most 'useful' for the longest period. The more tech that is put in, the more the organic part has to be engineeered to accomidate it or face death/removal. This has all been consistent with every bit of Mass Effect material.



EDIT: When it comes to the 'alive but braindead' Derelict Reaper, its 'wild' indoctrination signal convinced the Cerberus scientists inside it to basically jump on those Dragons' Teeth and huskify themselves.
I guess you could even say that the base form of Reapers do not seek our 'true salvation' or 'real synthesis', but is stuck being compelled to force organics to become full husks. That Reapers themselves require an authority (Catalyst?) to keep them in check with a more benevolent purpose

I'm not sure what would happen to outright 'dead' Reapers in a (literal) Destroy. My guess is that there wouldn't even be a 'wild' signal like the Derelict Reaper, but there would still be very dangerous tools in it that could emit signals, either to restart the Reaper and indoctrinate surrounding organics into rebuilding it, or to be utilized by said organics into forcing others to follow them. I don't know what is worse .
Anyway, the tech would still be there, it just wouldn't be utilized by Reaper intelligences at all unless the Reaper was restarted, and even then, it might be a 'new' Reaper, instead of one that has immediate memories of many Cycles. I'm guessing totally with that part though.

In fact, if you take a very pessmistic view of the endings (EC), all three endings may result in a Reaper threat, or at least if you headcanon it through. Destroy has organic indoctrinated into rebuilding Reapers, Control has Reapers leaving Shepalyst's control or Shepalyst going rogue, and Synthesis has Reapers still going against 'neo-organics' but for a different reason. But that's if you're outright jaded.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 08 janvier 2014 - 06:09 .

[jamesp81]

rapscallioness wrote...

Idk abt the Reapers and their Indoc. signal surviving the Crucible blast, but Leviathan and their fun lil spheres are def still out there.

I mean, srsly, wth is Leviathan gonna do now that the Only thing keeping them in check--the Reapers--is gone? At least in Control you could say Shepalyst could use the Reapers to keep Leviathan in check. In Synth, well.....

But Destroy? Leviathan remains, and is a very real and significant threat. Much more so than dead Reapers and a possible faded Reaper Indoc. signal.

Leviathan can indoctrinate. They will want to reclaim their supposed rightful place in the galaxy.

Leviathan lives on one planet.  After setting the Crucible to destroy, go to that planet and nuke the holy howling hell out of it.  Yes, I know Council law forbids it.  Make an exception.

[Invisible Man]

SwobyJ wrote...

Information gleaned from:
-the novels
-the comics
-Leviathan DLC
-the main story of each game (especially ME1's Novaria and Citadel, ME2's various conversations, ME3's Sanctuary, etc)

I've gotten everything I could from vanilla ME1-3, haven't done leviathan, nor the novels or comic books. got a little dlc for me2, and a little more for me3, but not leviathan.

to me, if dlc is needed to fully understand the plot & story of a game, then it's not dlc, and should have been included in the base game. after getting from ashes, I decided I will not support such practices buy buying such dlc. since citadel was just a little extra, and not a vital component to understanding the plot and etc. I had no qualms with picking it up. leviathan, and ashes is a completely different story. I almost wish I hadn't gotten from ashes, just on basic principals. I know I'm harming myself to protest rampant greed, I must be insane. I told myself the same thing many times over.