Aller au contenu

Photo

"You're not even alive. Not really. You're a machine, and machines can be broken."


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
192 réponses à ce sujet

#1
CosmicGnosis

CosmicGnosis
  • Members
  • 1 593 messages
"You're not even alive. Not really. You're a machine, and machines can be broken."

This line is an example of auto-dialogue from Mass Effect 1. By auto-dialogue, I mean that Shepard says this line to Sovereign no matter what you choose.

I never liked this line. I've always disagreed with its philosophy. However, it fits Mass Effect 1 perfectly. That game is all about how synthetics are the bad guys. There is some ambiguity about the quarian-geth war and whether or not the geth rebellion was justified, but that's it. Everywhere else, the synthetics are soulless machines that neither understand nor appreciate what "life" is. Saren's line about being a symbol of the future (an organic-synthetic fusion) is presented as something to be rejected; he is, in this context, an abomination. One could say that he has given up his "humanity" to become a machine; to become a synthetic is to die. 

The anti-synthetic sentiment changes in Mass Effect 2. Legion explains that the geth we fought in ME1 were actually "heretics" who agreed with the Reapers. The "orthodox" geth, represented by Legion, are genuinely curious about organics, but don't trust them. There is also EDI, who befriends Joker and the crew. Both Legion and EDI serve as examples of synthetic "life"; they are fundamentally different from organics, but it can be argued that they are "alive". The organics-vs.-synethetics theme is also complicated by the revelation that the Reapers contain the minds of organics. Again, we have some kind of fusion, but it's still presented as something horrific and wrong.

We all know what happens in Mass Effect 3: EDI wants a relationship with Joker, the geth want to upgrade themselves with "Reaper code" so that they will be considered "alive", and Synthesis is a possible ending. We have come a long way since ME1. I realize that many people disagree with how these developments were presented, though. The Joker-EDI relationship is criticized for being silly. Some people think that the geth were ruined because their story suggests that they weren't really "alive" until they used the Reaper code. And of course, Synthesis has all kinds of problems.

So what is the point of this thread? Well, these are just some observations and my thoughts about them. I think that BioWare was not wrong for presenting "organics vs. synthetics" as a significant theme for the ending. The problem is that the trilogy muddled the theme on its way to the ending. If certain parts of Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 had not existed, then I think the Catalyst's argument would be easier to accept, and it wouldn't feel so random. However, the Destroy ending would unquestionably be the ending of choice. Without Legion and EDI, Mass Effect's message would be that machines, even intelligent machines, can never be alive, and that to integrate oneself with technology is to risk losing one's humanity.

EDIT: I forgot to mention Shepard and Project Lazarus. Shepard's death and resurrection is one of the most bizarre plot points of the trilogy, but only because it's almost never discussed. It doesn't feel important, and it doesn't seem to contribute to any series-spanning themes. It's just there to justify changing your Shepard between ME1 and ME2... I remember joking about another Shepard death between ME2 and ME3. If it had been important, then it would have focused on bridging the gap between organics and synthetics. This is really just another problem created by ME2. I wonder: If one were to play ME1, and then skip to the ending of ME3, would it make sense? Would there be less plot dissonance than if one were to play the entire trilogy?

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 06 janvier 2014 - 02:48 .


#2
dreamgazer

dreamgazer
  • Members
  • 15 742 messages
(laughs)

Yeah, it's certainly an amusing line. Shepard's had ... moments from the beginning.

#3
McFlurry598

McFlurry598
  • Members
  • 553 messages
As sketchy as it was, it was fitting for the moment IMO

#4
SwobyJ

SwobyJ
  • Members
  • 7 370 messages
It's said in the context of a Reaper admitting that "Yep, we kill all y'all on a regulated bases. Because we're better than you and you won't understand."

They were smack talking each other in their own way.

Reapers ARE just machines. Artificial ones. Humans ARE just machines (ahem from a POV of course). Organic ones. Compounds.

All Shepard is really saying is "You're not God. You can die. We'll stop you from Reaping us." He's saying this from a more purely organic perspective, so add on "..by killing you" to it.

His perspective, yes, can change in ME2. More like "We'll stop you." than "We'll kill you." Shepard is still about killing Reapers, but it doesn't seem to be the automatic choice to

And you can take it even further in ME3: "We'll get this to stop." or "We'll end this war." instead of more directly intervening use of words.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 06 janvier 2014 - 03:13 .


#5
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*

Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
  • Guests
That's the main reason why I've considered Synthesis to sort of be an extra ending. You have to work really hard to get it, and you've been trying to destroy the Reapers. The organics/synthetics storyline was probably the most significant side storyline, so it's not that bad that they made the Synthesis ending.

#6
CronoDragoon

CronoDragoon
  • Members
  • 10 408 messages
Well the issue is that I felt Rannoch already represented the player's final decision about organics and synthetics. We didn't need a bookend to that theme at Earth since we already had one: what we DID need is a bookend to the victory through sacrifice theme introduced at the beginning of ME3. While we certainly got that, I think it was a mistake to frame the context through an overtly organic/synthetic lens.

#7
vandalDX

vandalDX
  • Members
  • 193 messages

CosmicGnosis wrote...

So what is the point of this thread? Well, these are just some observations and my thoughts about them. I think that BioWare was not wrong for presenting "organics vs. synthetics" as a significant theme for the ending. The problem is that the trilogy muddled the theme on its way to the ending. If Mass Effect 2 and certain parts of Mass Effect 3 had not existed, then I think the Catalyst's argument would be easier to accept, and it wouldn't feel so random. However, the Destroy ending would unquestionably be the ending of choice. Without Legion and EDI, Mass Effect's message would be that machines, even intelligent machines, can never be alive, and that to integrate oneself with technology is to risk losing one's humanity.


I was considering a similar idea during my most recent play of ME2: there are several subplots that deal with machines breaking their protocols and goint crazy.  Quite a few of the side missions deal with Shepard & Co. interjecting themselves into an existing situation in which mechs had lost touch with their original programming and started attacking organics.  As this essentially is what the Leviathan tells us happened between them and the Reapers in the DLC, and repeated by the Starchild in that revised dialogue, the disconnect the original ending matter had kind of goes away, doesn't it.

Such an example seems to play right in with this idea.

#8
teh DRUMPf!!

teh DRUMPf!!
  • Members
  • 9 142 messages

CronoDragoon wrote...

Well the issue is that I felt Rannoch already represented the player's final decision about organics and synthetics. We didn't need a bookend to that theme at Earth since we already had one: what we DID need is a bookend to the victory through sacrifice theme introduced at the beginning of ME3. While we certainly got that, I think it was a mistake to frame the context through an overtly organic/synthetic lens.



Rannoch is not really meaningful IMO because most people do not empathize with the quarian's grievances against the geth, and so it's easy to say that they should just stop fighting and get along. The Reapers, OTOH, are synthetics that the players themselves have issues with. Then we see how willing people really are to do the whole "stop fighting/get along" thing.

#9
CronoDragoon

CronoDragoon
  • Members
  • 10 408 messages

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Rannoch is not really meaningful IMO because most people do not empathize with the quarian's grievances against the geth, and so it's easy to say that they should just stop fighting and get along. The Reapers, OTOH, are synthetics that the players themselves have issues with. Then we see how willing people really are to do the whole "stop fighting/get along" thing.


That might be how you saw it, but the ratio is almost evenly split into thirds: 1/3 chose the quarians, 1/3 chose the geth, 1/3 chose Peace. Additionally, the geth/quarian threads habitually turn into the longest, most hotly debated ones.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 06 janvier 2014 - 02:55 .


#10
teh DRUMPf!!

teh DRUMPf!!
  • Members
  • 9 142 messages

CronoDragoon wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Rannoch is not really meaningful IMO because most people do not empathize with the quarian's grievances against the geth, and so it's easy to say that they should just stop fighting and get along. The Reapers, OTOH, are synthetics that the players themselves have issues with. Then we see how willing people really are to do the whole "stop fighting/get along" thing.


That might be how you saw it, but the ratio is almost evenly split into thirds: 1/3 chose the quarians, 1/3 chose the geth, 1/3 chose Peace. Additionally, the geth/quarian threads habitually turn into the longest, most hotly debated ones.



I'm not real interested in the stats on *everyone* who played, because that figure would be dominated by casual players, not those of us who actually know the lore well and talk about it with other fans. I'd make a pretty strong wager that most of the non-peace 2/3 lacked the option altogether, due to either starting at ME3 or not jumping through all pre-ME3 hoops.

I mean, 92% of all players cure the genophage regardless who leads the krogan. I should doubt geth are more feared.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 06 janvier 2014 - 03:11 .


#11
David7204

David7204
  • Members
  • 15 187 messages
I never liked it either.

#12
DeinonSlayer

DeinonSlayer
  • Members
  • 8 441 messages

CronoDragoon wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Rannoch is not really meaningful IMO because most people do not empathize with the quarian's grievances against the geth, and so it's easy to say that they should just stop fighting and get along. The Reapers, OTOH, are synthetics that the players themselves have issues with. Then we see how willing people really are to do the whole "stop fighting/get along" thing.

That might be how you saw it, but the ratio is almost evenly split into thirds: 1/3 chose the quarians, 1/3 chose the geth, 1/3 chose Peace. Additionally, the geth/quarian threads habitually turn into the longest, most hotly debated ones.

This. A big reason many don't empathize with said grievances is because the writers went out of their way to wallpaper over them in ME3. After establishing the Quarian death toll in the Morning War in ME1 ("billions") and Revelation ("99% genocide"), it's never mentioned again, even by Quarian characters. You're given no choice in ME1 except to spit out some variation of "you got what you deserved" when told about this, and it's dismissed as "self-defense" whenever it comes up again. Gerrel makes a stronger argument for war in ME2 than the softball argument offered by Xen in ME3. Things like the way the fleet is breaking down (Ascension) and the Quarians' physiological dependency on their native plant life (ME3 codex) is given no mention in game dialogue. The effect that centuries of violent isolationism has had on the galaxy's perception of the Geth is likewise never addressed, and even the heretics are barely mentioned.

I liked how the Tuchanka arc let you speak to Victus and get the history of the rebellion, even if the dalatrass was a walking strawman. Raan, by contrast, offers no background or perspective; only fleet composition. I think we should have been able to dial up Gerrel and demand answers for why they've done this, even if it's all been addressed before, just to provide the perspective.

Going by the dialogue in ME3 alone ("the best place to start the series"), one would think the Quarians are there for historical grievances and nothing more.

#13
David7204

David7204
  • Members
  • 15 187 messages
Weekes said point-blank that they wanted the player to feel the geth were ultimately in the right for the Rannoch arc. And the writers have every right to portray that theme if they choose to.

I'm wondering to myself how exactly the dalatross is a 'strawman' as people like to claim. Is 'the krogan will reproduce out of control' not the cornerstone of the argument against curing them?

Modifié par David7204, 06 janvier 2014 - 03:23 .


#14
CosmicGnosis

CosmicGnosis
  • Members
  • 1 593 messages

David7204 wrote...

Weekes said point-blank that they wanted the player to feel the geth were ultimately in the right for the Rannoch arc. And the writers have every right to portray that theme if they choose to.


That's weird. I think the game seems more depressing if you choose the geth. Everyone feels bad about the quarians. But if you choose the quarians, then everyone is glad that the geth are finally gone.

#15
Seboist

Seboist
  • Members
  • 11 973 messages
That quote is another brilliant line from the short bus riding Shepard like "we fight or we die, that's the plan!".

#16
DeinonSlayer

DeinonSlayer
  • Members
  • 8 441 messages

David7204 wrote...

Weekes said point-blank that they wanted the player to feel the geth were ultimately in the right for the Rannoch arc. And the writers have every right to portray that theme if they choose to.

And as a consumer, I have the right to judge their writing as I see fit. They established these things as having happened, and then the only way they could make their chosen faction sympathetic was by ignoring it. It's either extremely poor writing, or a truly ugly moral.

Re: dalatrass, she (like Gerrel and Xen) makes deliberately weakened arguments to make her opposition more sympathetic. Instead of saying that after the Rachni were defeated the Krogan "were no longer useful," it would have been stronger, more accurate (in keeping with prior lore), and more to the point to say the Krogan tried to finish what the Rachni started.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 06 janvier 2014 - 03:34 .


#17
Guest_Catch This Fade_*

Guest_Catch This Fade_*
  • Guests

Seboist wrote...

That quote is another brilliant line from the short bus riding Shepard like "we fight or we die, that's the plan!".

Don't hate Seb. That line is badass. We fight or we die is terribad in that Captain Obvious kind of way.

#18
Darks1d3

Darks1d3
  • Members
  • 583 messages

David7204 wrote...

Weekes said point-blank that they
wanted the player to feel the geth were ultimately in the right for the
Rannoch arc. And the writers have every right to portray that theme if
they choose to.

I'm wondering to myself how exactly the
dalatross is a 'strawman' as people like to claim. Is 'the krogan will
reproduce out of control' not the cornerstone of the argument against
curing them?


True, it's their story to tell. That doesn't mean it wasn't foolish. If they wanted me to sympathize with the geth, they shouldn't have had painted the geth as souless machines in ME1, or isolationists who didn't even attempt to stop the heretics from helping the reapers start their harvest in ME2. I usually choose peace in ME3, but if I had to choose one race over the other, I'll choose quarian everytime.

Modifié par Darks1d3, 06 janvier 2014 - 03:31 .


#19
David7204

David7204
  • Members
  • 15 187 messages

Darks1d3 wrote...

True, it's their story to tell. That doesn't mean it wasn't foolish. If they wanted me to sympathize with the geth, they shouldn't have had painted the geth as souless machines in ME1, or isolationists who didn't even attempt to stop the heretics from helping the reapers start their harvest in ME2.

That is just ridiculous.

The entire point is to establish something to the player and then reveal it as false. Is something like betrayal 'foolish' because they narrative established a character as good beforehand? No. That's just silly.

#20
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 283 messages
Writer intent in a work is mostly irrelevant

#21
spirosz

spirosz
  • Members
  • 16 354 messages

Steelcan wrote...

Writer intent in a work is mostly irrelevant


That is just stupid. 

#22
vandalDX

vandalDX
  • Members
  • 193 messages

Steelcan wrote...

Writer intent in a work is mostly irrelevant


^ This.  It's the backbone of most literary theory.

#23
Guest_Catch This Fade_*

Guest_Catch This Fade_*
  • Guests

spirosz wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Writer intent in a work is mostly irrelevant


That is just stupid. 

I can't tell if you're serious.

#24
Darks1d3

Darks1d3
  • Members
  • 583 messages

spirosz wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Writer intent in a work is mostly irrelevant


That is just stupid. 


Stupid question, are you mocking David or are you being serious?

:whistle:

#25
spirosz

spirosz
  • Members
  • 16 354 messages

J. Reezy wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Writer intent in a work is mostly irrelevant


That is just stupid. 

I can't tell if you're serious.


Don't be so ridicilious.