192 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Rather than focusing on the minutia of how the Quarians and Geth were presented, I was more concerned that the whole chapter felt rather...contrived.

The game didn't convince me that the Quarians were attacking for a reason other than to create drama and tie up some loose ends in the setting. 

That conflict would've made sense if the Geth remained the main reaper aligned secondary antagonist faction and the villain of the week collectors and scapegoat heretic faction were never introduced.

[David7204]

The quarians attacking the geth makes perfect sense. In fact, it makes all the more sense with an impending Reaper invasion.

[DeinonSlayer]

Darks1d3 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Hardly. By ME 1 the heretics are in
full existence and force. Derelict freighter only shows a freighter was
attacked by heretics.

*sigh*

www.youtube.com/watch

Skip ahead to about the 3 minute mark.

Maybe the "true geth" only sent the heretics out of Geth space after they failed to take the Citadel. Still didn't do anything to curtail their attacks on organics.

I honestly think the existence of the heretics as of ME2 is, itself, a retcon. Heck, the only reason Legion has Shepard's armor and was "stalking" Shepard to begin with, per Chris E'toile, is because "higher paid" thought it would be cool.

@David, I agree it makes sense, only the writers left their reasoning poorly articulated in a deliberate attempt to make the Geth more sympathetic (which could only be achieved by deliberately ignoring their own sins).

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 06 janvier 2014 - 04:22 .

[David7204]

That's an immensely flimsy argument, Deinon. Pretty much everything in the game is in there because someone, somewhere 'thought it would be cool.' Is thinking something is cool somehow mutually exclusive with it being good content?

Modifié par David7204, 06 janvier 2014 - 04:23 .

[AresKeith]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Maybe the "true geth" only sent the heretics out of Geth space after they failed to take the Citadel. Still didn't do anything to curtail their attacks on organics.

I honestly think the existence of the heretics as of ME2 is, itself, a retcon. Heck, the only reason Legion has Shepard's armor and was "stalking" Shepard to begin with, per Chris E'toile, is because "higher paid" thought it would be cool.

I remember hearing that Chris didn't want the Geth (and EDI in this case) to follow the cliche of machines turning evil

[David7204]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@David, I agree it makes sense, only the writers left their reasoning poorly articulated in a deliberate attempt to make the Geth more sympathetic (which could only be achieved by deliberately ignoring their own sins).

That is completely untrue.

[DeinonSlayer]

AresKeith wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Maybe the "true geth" only sent the heretics out of Geth space after they failed to take the Citadel. Still didn't do anything to curtail their attacks on organics.

I honestly think the existence of the heretics as of ME2 is, itself, a retcon. Heck, the only reason Legion has Shepard's armor and was "stalking" Shepard to begin with, per Chris E'toile, is because "higher paid" thought it would be cool.

I remember hearing that Chris didn't want the Geth (and EDI in this case) to follow the cliche of machines turning evil.

None of which undoes the 99% genocide and centuries of violent isolationism already established in the lore.

Though to be fair, I liked Chris' ideas. I liked the ME2 development of Legion. Chris also wanted synthetics to walk their own path, to be strong enough to have their own identity and not want to change it to be more like us. He said the idea of a synthetic wanting to be more human would be about as offensive as a story about a black man who wanted to be white.

Chris must have loved the Pinocchio Code/sexbot twist after he left the team.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 06 janvier 2014 - 04:30 .

[Darks1d3]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Maybe the "true geth" only sent the heretics out of Geth space after they failed to take the Citadel. Still didn't do anything to curtail their attacks on organics.

I honestly think the existence of the heretics as of ME2 is, itself, a retcon. Heck, the only reason Legion has Shepard's armor and was "stalking" Shepard to begin with, per Chris E'toile, is because "higher paid" thought it would be cool.

I remember hearing that Chris didn't want the Geth (and EDI in this case) to follow the cliche of machines turning evil.

He also wanted synthetics to walk their own path, saying the idea of a synthetic wanting to be more human would be about as offensive as a story about a black man who wanted to be white.

Chris must have loved the Pinocchio Code/sexbot twist after he left the team.

EDIT- Damn, you already fixed it. I never get to use that emoticon! Killjoy :happy:

Modifié par Darks1d3, 06 janvier 2014 - 04:31 .

[AresKeith]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

None of which undoes the 99% genocide and centuries of violent isolationism already established in the lore.

Though to be fair, I liked Chris' ideas. I liked the ME2 development of Legion. Chris also wanted synthetics to walk their own path, saying the idea of a synthetic wanting to be more human would be about as offensive as a story about a black man who wanted to be white.

Chris must have loved the Pinocchio Code/sexbot twist after he left the team.

I don't think he wanted people to forget about that part

And don't forget the starchild bring up the cliche, Chris probably facepalm'd and shook his head

[David7204]

The Reapers are the villains. The narrative 'bringing up' a topic is in no way the narrative supporting it.

I notice that Javik's condemnation of synthetics seems to have been totally forgotten. How convenient.

Modifié par David7204, 06 janvier 2014 - 04:34 .

[DeinonSlayer]

AresKeith wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

None of which undoes the 99% genocide and centuries of violent isolationism already established in the lore.

I don't think he wanted people to forget about that part.

They still went out of their way to avoid directly mentioning it ever again. I doubt most ME3 casual players were even aware of it.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

What else can be said?

Inconsistent writing is bad. Bad writing is bad.

That's all there is too it.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

The quarians attacking the geth makes perfect sense. In fact, it makes all the more sense with an impending Reaper invasion.

Sound off on your reasoning there.

[wolfhowwl]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
@David, I agree it makes sense, only the writers left their reasoning poorly articulated in a deliberate attempt to make the Geth more sympathetic (which could only be achieved by deliberately ignoring their own sins).

What exactly was the Quarians' reasoning?

From what they said in game their decision didn't make much sense to me.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 06 janvier 2014 - 04:47 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I think that BioWare was not wrong for presenting "organics vs. synthetics" as a significant theme for the ending. The problem is that the trilogy muddled the theme on its way to the ending. If Mass Effect 2 and certain parts of Mass Effect 3 had not existed, then I think the Catalyst's argument would be easier to accept, and it wouldn't feel so random.

In my last play of ME2, I saw things that made me feel like they were trying to make this theme every bit as relevant an issue as the Dark Energy dilemma, which random anti-enders claim was "heavily" foreshadowed. If anything, though, I think "organic v. synthetic" themes are much easier to come by in ME2 than "Dark Energy"-nonsense. Tali and Legion's parts obviously stand out, but don't forget Overlord DLC, and then there were those out-of-control VIs on various N7 missions...

Only difference is that characters will actually have to say the words "Dark Energy" when dealing with Dark Energy, whereas they don't say "Organics vs. Synthetics" when dealing with this issue, so some people miss it. Some folks just don't see things that they're not hit over the head with (yet will complain about it when they are).

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 06 janvier 2014 - 04:54 .

[David7204]

They had a weapon to take out the geth with zero losses. They had an opportunity not only to retake their homeworld, but to remove what was to their knowledge a tremendous threat to the galaxy. And if they were concerned about the Reapers, that's all the more reason to attack the geth immediately instead of waiting for them to mobilize as a powerful asset to the Reapers.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Did they now? Because when I arrived, they were getting their elf buttocks handed to them by a Geth Dreadnaught that they had no idea how to defeat.

That's because the Reapers upgraded the geth to immunity from the quarians' weapon.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

David7204 wrote...

Weekes said point-blank that they wanted the player to feel the geth were ultimately in the right for the Rannoch arc. And the writers have every right to portray that theme if they choose to.

I don't think that means what you think, if it's even true. By "right" they may have simply meant that their reasoning for doing so was sound, and not born of evil or malicious intent.

And sure, writers can write whatever they feel like, but players such as myself and many others feel these stories are more meaningful when the rightness and wrongness are reasonably debatable, and when we can choose which themes to promote in our playthroughs by taking sides or whatever. You claim to be playing DA:O, so I wonder if you've seen that yet...

[AresKeith]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Weekes said point-blank that they wanted the player to feel the geth were ultimately in the right for the Rannoch arc. And the writers have every right to portray that theme if they choose to.

I don't think that means what you think, if it's even true. By "right" they may have simply meant that their reasoning for doing so was sound, and not born of evil or malicious intent.

And sure, writers can write whatever they feel like, but players such as myself and many others feel these stories are more meaningful when the rightness and wrongness are reasonably debatable, and when we can choose which themes to promote in our playthroughs by taking sides or whatever. You claim to be playing DA:O, so I wonder if you've seen that yet...

I also think that's what Patrick meant

[CosmicGnosis]

Like I said, killing the quarians seems more depressing than killing the geth:

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 06 janvier 2014 - 05:07 .

[DeinonSlayer]

wolfhowwl wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
@David, I agree it makes sense, only the writers left their reasoning poorly articulated in a deliberate attempt to make the Geth more sympathetic (which could only be achieved by deliberately ignoring their own sins).

What exactly was the Quarians' reasoning?

From what they said in game their decision didn't make much sense to me.

That's because (if what David said is right) the writers wanted the player to oppose it. Stated in-game in ME3, Xen says it's "to recover their homeworld and advanced AI technology." Gerrel makes a stronger case for reclaiming Rannoch in ME2 - as a place to shelter their civilian populace while they join the fight against the Reapers. It isn't articulated in-game, but when you get right down to it, the Quarians really don't have any other choice but to take back Rannoch. They won't be much safer there (where is "safe" in a Reaper invasion?), but it will free up their ships to aid the wider war effort.

When you have hundreds of civilians living in your ship's cargo hold in metal cubicles, that cargo hold can't be used to transport war materiel or soldiers as part of the Reaper war effort. The Quarians have a fleet which is unable to contribute to the war effort in any way so long as it's crowded with civilians, which is dependent on external infrastructure even at the best of times for basic survival (said infrastructure is rapidly being destroyed), and the Reapers need only cordon off the relay in whatever system they happen to be in to ensure they are left with no escape (as they have their Geth thralls do in ME3).

They cannot survive in their fleet. The only alternative is to offload their civilians on a planet, which begs the question of what Turian colony is A) not already under Reaper attack, able and willing to accept an influx of millions of high-maintenance refugees, potentially on a permanent basis. They can't dump everyone on some airless moon and expect the species to survive long term in the event the fleet itself doesn't survive the coming battles to come back for them. Rannoch is the only world where a suit breach won't kill, with unique plant life which the Quarians are physiologically dependent on interacting with for their immune systems to function properly, and it's held by a faction which they (and everyone else save for the Normandy crew) see as isolationists hostile to all organic life (at best) or a Reaper proxy (at worst). It doesn't help that Legion severs communication with Tali before they invade - the Geth have killed every negotiator sent to them in the past, so there's no reason to believe peace talks will work now.

As I said before, this isn't properly articulated to the player, but it's a pretty good summary of the situation.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 06 janvier 2014 - 05:09 .

[wolfhowwl]

Thank you for the thorough explanation. Their reasoning certainly could have been articulated better and perhaps would have helped counter the gut reaction of "Only a fool fights in a burning house" that made the Quarians seem unreasonably aggressive and bloodthirsty to many players.

I can understand their plight but the jump to trying to retake Rannoch didn't work for me.

The Quarians were following a plan that their military leaders should have realized was always doomed. From an outside perspective, them ignoring that made the whole arc feel contrived as if it was added to pad the game length and wrap up some loose ends in the setting.

They want a place to house their people but they are fighting to take the Rannoch system, a place that is the base of the second largest fleet in the galaxy and a massive manufacturing capacity. Such locations are typically priority targets in an invasion. No location is safe in ME3 but the Quarians are choosing one that is a prime strategic target and fighting for it no less. Is there any reason for the Reaper commander to ignore Rannoch other than the writers making them an incredibly incompetent antagonist?

The Quarians don't have meta-knowledge of the plot. If they are trying to take back Rannoch right before or during a Reaper invasion, shouldn't their leaders consider the possibility of Reaper action when strategizing?

If the Quarians attack and the Geth are actually Reaper proxies, then the Reapers are spurred to protect their assets and their intervention assures the Quarians' destruction.

If the Geth are not reaper proxies, for the Quarians to not die, they need the Reapers to completely ignore such a juicy target for the duration of the Reaper war.

If the Reapers hit the Geth first, the Quarians find the killers of their erstwhile servants waiting for the Migrant fleet and a very one-sided battle ensues.

If the Reapers decide to crush the Geth at any point the Quarians are fighting them, the Quarians are sandwiched and destroyed.

It seems that Quarian plan entirely relies on the Reapers not meddling in the middle of a Reaper invasion! Indeed the Migrant Fleet appeared doomed the moment the Reapers started aiding the Geth in the game with the Admirals apparently having no plan for what to do (which makes sense in a way, if they had planned for that, they may have realized the whole enterprise was a bad idea).

Their whole plan relies on the Reapers being fools. Obviously they are, but the Quarians haven't read ME3's script. They live in a universe where the Reapers are considered ruthless deadly enemies. Having the Quarian admirals launch a war that would only succeed based on ME3's plot and not the game universe didn't do it for me. In-game it made them seem crazed with revenge and rather stupid.

Finally even if the Quarians succeed at wiping out the Geth, they have to unrealistically hope that the Reapers never ever follow up on such an important strategic target. Even a single scouting party would let the Reapers know that the Quarian civilians are there to be used as leverage to force the Quarian fleets to stand, fight, and die (for some reason the Reapers don't follow up on the Quarian civilians on Rannoch to do this in ME3).

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 06 janvier 2014 - 06:45 .