192 réponses à ce sujet

[RogueBot]

It was the best line Shepard could think of at the moment. It sounded much better in his head, and the moment the words left his mouth he regretted it. We've all been there.

[DeinonSlayer]

RogueBot wrote...

It was the best line Shepard could think of at the moment. It sounded much better in his head, and the moment the words left his mouth he regretted it. We've all been there.

"Well, THIS thorn is about to TAKE YOU DOOOWN!"

MAN that sounded better in my head!

[FlyingSquirrel]

Hazegurl wrote...
I'm not getting what you would have wanted from that exchange with Sovereign. He made it clear that he was not there to negotiate anything other than Shepard being his mind slave on the off chance that he will be spared. I don't think it's fair to even compare the Reapers and the Geth's war with the Quarians. Sovereign isn't there to ask questions or even gain an understanding of anything. He is there to flat out declare that he will kill all organics. It would be foolish to even want to reason with him. The way I see it if the reapers see organics as a mistake et al then why should Shepard extend any sort of niceties his way? Him telling sovereign he's nothing but a machine has nothing at all to do with the Geth or other AI. 

What should the dialogue wheel look like for a different response to that situation anyway? 

"You have rights."
"Meh"
"You're just a machine" 

Well, we don't really know much about Sovereign or the Reapers at that point, but even if you figure that a statement of defiance is the only option, it doesn't have to be one that implies that AIs aren't alive. Shepard responds defiantly to Harbinger in Arrival without bringing that issue up, for example. My comments about AI rights and how they would have become an issue in the ME universe were just meant to establish that Shepard would conceivably think that they *are* alive. I don't think it's credible that everyone just assumes they aren't.

Modifié par FlyingSquirrel, 06 janvier 2014 - 08:40 .

[FlyingSquirrel]

AlanC9 wrote...

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

Well, Saren seems to be one of the more well-known Spectres, so it's credible that Liara would have heard of him, and there might at least be unsubstantiated rumors of his ruthlessness. As for her mother, that does seem odd, unless Saren's been preparing all this for a while and Benezia joined up with him early on.

I can see Liara having heard of Saren. It's not even inconceivable that she caught a news bulletin about him being a traitor; as usual in ME1, it's best not to think about the precise timing of events. Maybe she could even jump to the conclusion that the geth who are after her are working with Saren. But I don't see any way to make knowledge of Benezia work. Her dialogue goes both ways on the subject.

Does she state that Benezia was *not* with Saren when they last communicated? I can't remember at the moment. Saren has apparently been working on all this for a while, given that he apparently discovered Sovereign shortly after his encounter with Anderson if the novels are canon, but it's not clear when he started gathering followers and getting the geth involved. (I'm admittedly rationalizing here.)

Passage of time has always been a bit fuzzy in ME games in general, beyond just the "Race Against Time" in ME1 that isn't a race against time. Kelly in ME2 sometimes talks as if she's already spoken with some of the new recruits about 30 seconds after the meetings with Shepard and Jacob in the conference room. There are updates on how the krogan are helping on Palaven immediately after Shepard returns to the Normandy from Tuchanka in ME3.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Harbinger and Sovereign were trash talking Shepard as bad a pro-wrestlers trash talk. So Shepard fires back with the "You're just a machine." line. Big deal.

And the Geth? That pro-Geth agenda was so transparent right from the beginning in that campaign. I didn't buy it in March 2012. I saw the whole Geth fighter base thing as propaganda showing one side. You could see the end a mile a way. Destroy the reaper then pick which side you wanted to blow up: the faceless Quarians (who they made appear try to kill you unless you picked "and then you counterattack" with the dreadnought; and appear insane); or the now cuddly geth victims who were peaceful except they were taken over by the reaper. Bah! Tali was my friend. Without Tali the galaxy would have been dead in 2183. Peace or Quarians.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Maybe Shepard was tired after slaying regiments of Geth and Krogan and getting mind probed for the dozenth time, so he wasn't quite up to the task of thinking of a witty, meaningful response.

[AlanC9]

valhallaVANDAL wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Writer intent in a work is mostly irrelevant

^ This.  It's the backbone of most literary theory.

Most literary theory is crap. Trust me; I've done hard time in lit ckasses.

[Daemul]

AlanC9 wrote...

Considering how tight the ME3 word budget seems to have been, I'm amazed stuff like this made it in. How many players fly to the Citadel between missions at Rannoch?

I fly to the Citadel before and after every Priority mission to hand in quests and to speak to anyone who asked to meet me there. I guess I must be one of the few who does this. 

[Daemul]

General TSAR wrote...

RatThing wrote...
I've already figured Weekes likes to push his opinion on the player after watching that panel where he called the Quarians racists. 

Seriously? 

Go to 3:30




They pretty much are tbh.

[DeinonSlayer]

Daemul wrote...

General TSAR wrote...

RatThing wrote...
I've already figured Weekes likes to push his opinion on the player after watching that panel where he called the Quarians racists. 

Seriously? 

Go to 3:30



They pretty much are tbh.

The Geth spend centuries killing anything that came near them that wasn't Geth, yet the Quarians are the racist ones?

I have to wonder if the writers are blind to what they wrote or if they legitimately wanted us to forget everything they told us about the Geth.

[Almostfaceman]

...

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 06 janvier 2014 - 10:51 .

[Almostfaceman]

Duplicate post... somehow.... o.O

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 06 janvier 2014 - 10:51 .

[Almostfaceman]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The Geth spend centuries killing anything that came near them that wasn't Geth, yet the Quarians are the racist ones?

Actually the Geth hid behind the Perseus Veil and left everyone alone, that's why folks were suprised by the attack on Eden Prime by them. 

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 06 janvier 2014 - 10:53 .

[SwobyJ]

(Many, not all) Quarians are racist, but Geth are isolationist to the point of malfunction.

I'm quite aware of Quarian racism, and of racism done to THEM.

I just hope Bioware still remembers the latter of both previous sentences.

[SwobyJ]

Almostfaceman wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The Geth spend centuries killing anything that came near them that wasn't Geth, yet the Quarians are the racist ones?

Actually the Geth hid behind the Perseus Veil and left everyone alone, that's why folks were suprised by the attack on Eden Prime by them. 

I believe they shot down anything that came near them, right? (could be wrong)

If we take Legion at his word though (as like, the only Geth platform we really meet and converse with except a couple), they would have responded positively to a full and peaceful-oriented communication from the Quarians. Instead they got recon craft and drones, if anything.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Daemul wrote...

General TSAR wrote...

RatThing wrote...
I've already figured Weekes likes to push his opinion on the player after watching that panel where he called the Quarians racists. 

Seriously? 

Go to 3:30



They pretty much are tbh.

The Geth spend centuries killing anything that came near them that wasn't Geth, yet the Quarians are the racist ones?

I have to wonder if the writers are blind to what they wrote or if they legitimately wanted us to forget everything they told us about the Geth.

It was for da feelz. The Geth weren't racist because they were machines. So by default the Quarians had to be racist. Yet, we were expected to be manipulated into anthropomorphizing the Geth with them putting Legion into the story, having Mr. Paidmore putting the piece of N7 armor on it, and giving Legion simulated emotional responses with the flap animations. 

If anything, the Shepard stalker in the story is Legion.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 06 janvier 2014 - 10:59 .

[CosmicGnosis]

Guys, what Weekes said isn't that catastrophic. It makes sense that the quarian account of the Morning War would be heavily biased in their favor. There is nothing ridiculous about that declaration. Are the quarians "racist" against the geth? Yes, they are, but only if you consider the geth to be a living race. And frankly, it seems that BioWare wants us to consider synthetics as living beings.

[Almostfaceman]

SwobyJ wrote...

I believe they shot down anything that came near them, right? (could be wrong)

If we take Legion at his word though (as like, the only Geth platform we really meet and converse with except a couple), they would have responded positively to a full and peaceful-oriented communication from the Quarians. Instead they got recon craft and drones, if anything.

When Shepard asks about the Geth, he just gets told they rebelled against the Quarians and now haven't been seen past the Perseus Veil. I don't recall anyone saying that anyones' tangled with them since then. Now that doesn't mean anyone thought they were warm and cuddly, but until the Heretics I don't think the Geth messed with anyone after the Quarian war.

Yeah, I believe they would have been open to peaceful communications with the Quarians, considering how they act in ME3 (only in self defense). 

[SwobyJ]

Almostfaceman wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I believe they shot down anything that came near them, right? (could be wrong)

If we take Legion at his word though (as like, the only Geth platform we really meet and converse with except a couple), they would have responded positively to a full and peaceful-oriented communication from the Quarians. Instead they got recon craft and drones, if anything.

When Shepard asks about the Geth, he just gets told they rebelled against the Quarians and now haven't been seen past the Perseus Veil. I don't recall anyone saying that anyones' tangled with them since then. Now that doesn't mean anyone thought they were warm and cuddly, but until the Heretics I don't think the Geth messed with anyone after the Quarian war.

Yeah, I believe they would have been open to peaceful communications with the Quarians, considering how they act in ME3 (only in self defense). 

I think I saw something in one of the games where the Geth shot down anyone entering their space so after that people left em alone.

But yes, I think that if Legion is being honest (ooooo), its only because they're only going to leave their spot/allow others in as long as they truly 'come in peace'.

[Nightwriter]

I always wondered what point Shepard was trying to make with "you're not even alive." Living things can be broken quite easily, too. Perhaps the idea was that machines lack some special will or legitimacy that living organics have? If so, that would seem to be another idea that changed in future games.

[SwobyJ]

Nightwriter wrote...

I always wondered what point Shepard was trying to make with "you're not even alive." Living things can be broken quite easily, too. Perhaps the idea was that machines lack some special will or legitimacy that living organics have? If so, that would seem to be another idea that changed in future games.

It is an idea briefly touched on in ME1, but not much beyond that.
ME2 outright challenges the player with the concept, but we're perfectly allowed to go against it and even ignore most related content (to the point of shipping Legion off to Cerberus).
ME3 though, leads the other way, almost assuming that machines have this 'legitimacy'. Bioware DOES still MOSTLY give us the option to go against it, but by this point it is clear that we're swimming against the tide. We now have to actively ignore new information and opinions coming our way, instead of assume the truths of ME1 still hold.

Heh, just like how transhumanists describe 'full organic' people will be, as we move towards the 'singularity'.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 06 janvier 2014 - 11:38 .

[Darks1d3]

Nightwriter wrote...

I always wondered what point Shepard was trying to make with "you're not even alive." Living things can be broken quite easily, too. Perhaps the idea was that machines lack some special will or legitimacy that living organics have? If so, that would seem to be another idea that changed in future games.

Maybe he said "machines can be broken" instead of "machines can be killed" since he thought they weren't "alive" in the first place. Maybe he thought "heh, you can't be "killed", you'd have to be alive first. I'll just break you instead." *shrug*

[Nightwriter]

I have no problems with the idea that machines are alive or BioWare's gravitation toward that idea. I just didn't like the shift in division lines. In ME2, the division is about the belief in self-determination. Both you and the true geth believe in self-determination, putting you on the same side against the Reapers. In ME3, the division line shifts, the geth and Reapers are lumped in together as synthetics and it becomes more about organics vs machines than freedom vs control.

[SwobyJ]

Nightwriter wrote...

I have no problems with the idea that machines are alive or BioWare's gravitation toward that idea. I just didn't like the shift in division lines. In ME2, the division is about the belief in self-determination. Both you and the true geth believe in self-determination, putting you on the same side against the Reapers. In ME3, the division line shifts, the geth and Reapers are lumped in together as synthetics and it becomes more about organics vs machines than freedom vs control.

To be clear it is more the Reapers and Leviathans that seem to do that. Everyone else is, by Shep's optional actions, actually getting along and not strictly thinking in terms of organics and synthetics as big blobby groups.

[Nightwriter]

SwobyJ wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I have no problems with the idea that machines are alive or BioWare's gravitation toward that idea. I just didn't like the shift in division lines. In ME2, the division is about the belief in self-determination. Both you and the true geth believe in self-determination, putting you on the same side against the Reapers. In ME3, the division line shifts, the geth and Reapers are lumped in together as synthetics and it becomes more about organics vs machines than freedom vs control.

To be clear it is more the Reapers and Leviathans that seem to do that. Everyone else is, by Shep's optional actions, actually getting along and not strictly thinking in terms of organics and synthetics as big blobby groups.

I definitely wasn't thinking in terms of them as big blobby groups. But then the ending came and said "They are big blobby groups."