192 réponses à ce sujet

[RatThing]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

RatThing wrote...
Yes, I know that one, what exactly are you trying to tell me with that? There are enough people in the MEU who just don't see AI's as alive. Not only punching bag Raan, it's also Chakwas, Javik, Ashley, TIM, the Salarian counsilor who calls Legion a trophy. Liara is uncertain. Only TIM and Raan express the desire to use them as "slaves". It's a possible view in the MEU, just not a popular one among the writers.

Do you mean Gerrel and/or Xen?

I meant Xen. Sorry for the confusion. Gerrel might as well see the Geth as alive but simply does not care for their survival.

Modifié par RatThing, 07 janvier 2014 - 08:53 .

[AlanC9]

Hazegurl wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...
My Shepard doesn't view the Geth as being alive yet he respects their opinion and their way of doing things and even told Tali that it was wrong to just pew pew the Geth for asking questions. I think the Quarians got what they deserved but the Geth are machines that can be broken just as much as organics can be melted into space goo. I don't see the big deal, but that's just me.

So Reapers aren't "alive," but whether or not something is "alive" isn't very important?

The Reapers aren't alive and I don't care if they think they are. Is more accurate.  

I guess I'm not following why it matters if something's "alive" or not.

And are we talking about Reapers, Geth, EDI, or all of them?

Modifié par AlanC9, 07 janvier 2014 - 08:57 .

[CosmicGnosis]

StreetMagic wrote...

And I don't think Casey Hudson is any different at least. He said his only goal was just to get people to think about AI and the possibiltiies. Not give any answers. This is at the end of Final Hours app.

Can you provide a quote? I'm interested in what he has to say.

[KaiserShep]

I would've been satisfied with "You're just machines; you can die like everything else."

[dreamgazer]

I would've been satisfied with: "Shut up, you oversized tick."

Modifié par dreamgazer, 07 janvier 2014 - 09:20 .

[KaiserShep]

Or just cut off the call, like the council.

"That never gets old, does it?"

[CosmicGnosis]

StreetMagic wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

And I don't think Casey Hudson is any different at least. He said his only goal was just to get people to think about AI and the possibiltiies. Not give any answers. This is at the end of Final Hours app.

Can you provide a quote? I'm interested in what he has to say.

It's actually in a video interview at the end of the app. And it's all embedded in Adobe AIR format. I'd just recommend getting Final Hours. It's only like 3 bucks or something. It's light reading, but has some good background info.

I think I found it, and this quote is extremely relevant to the debates in this thread:

"I think one of the really neat things about video games as a medium is that there can be a message in them without making a statement. With a passive medium like a book or a movie, it kind of has to... it can raise questions. And I think that's usually what people respond to the best, is when a movie raises a question that makes you think about it, sometimes it makes a statement. But the great thing about a video game is that you can explore an issue, and let a player explore their thoughts on the issue interactively, and so you don't have to say something specifically about, for example, in Mass Effect 3, the idea of organic life and synthetic life and whether synthetic life will ever rival our intelligence and whether we should incorporate technology more and more into our bodies and things like this. You can explore those ideas and experience some of the consequences and think about what you think is right without the game having to make a statement on it, and to me that is more interesting."

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 07 janvier 2014 - 10:10 .

[DeinonSlayer]

@Gnosis
I thought Deus Ex HR did a great job at exploring the ramifications of human augmentation from multiple angles, good and bad. It was pretty funny seeing a group of people standing in a Detroit street talking about how disgusting it is what people would choose to put in their bodies (referring to augs), while standing in a thick, low-hanging cloud of cigarette smoke of their own making.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 janvier 2014 - 10:33 .

[Hazegurl]

AlanC9 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...
My Shepard doesn't view the Geth as being alive yet he respects their opinion and their way of doing things and even told Tali that it was wrong to just pew pew the Geth for asking questions. I think the Quarians got what they deserved but the Geth are machines that can be broken just as much as organics can be melted into space goo. I don't see the big deal, but that's just me.

So Reapers aren't "alive," but whether or not something is "alive" isn't very important?

The Reapers aren't alive and I don't care if they think they are. Is more accurate.  

I guess I'm not following why it matters if something's "alive" or not.

And are we talking about Reapers, Geth, EDI, or all of them?

The question is why does it matter so much to you if they are considered alive or not if that is the point your trying to make.

Oh and just because it is my opinion that they aren't alive doesn't mean I care about whether they are or not, so no it doesn't matter. But if asked for my opinion. My response is none of them are.  

@Kaiser, I would have loved cutting Sovereign off. lol! 

Modifié par Hazegurl, 08 janvier 2014 - 12:23 .

[AlanC9]

Hazegurl wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
I guess I'm not following why it matters if something's "alive" or not. 

And are we talking about Reapers, Geth, EDI, or all of them?

The question is why does it matter so much to you if they are considered alive or not if that is the point your trying to make.
Oh and just because it is my opinion that they aren't alive doesn't mean I care about whether they are or not, so no it doesn't matter. But if asked for my opinion. My response is none of them are.   

Without knowing what "alive" means I can't say whether it matters or not. Right now it's coming across as a completely meaningless term. It's like pointing out that asari are blue.

[wolfhowwl]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@wolfhowwl
All valid concerns. Still, I've yet to see anyone suggest a different course of action they could take, besides spontaneously pulling a habitable dextro world ready for settlement out of their butts or "You have reached the Citadel Council - please hold. *elevator music*"

Go to the Citadel after the dreadnought mission and before Priority: Rannoch, and Tali has a different set of dialogue with a different Turian. Instead of arranging for Quarian ships to evacuate a Turian colony, she's asking for - and being denied - Turian aid. I doubt any kind of arrangement could have been made to house seventeen million Quarian civilians on Turian worlds when they're already overwhelmed by their own refugee crisis. News bulletins even say the Citadel itself is facing food shortages.

If you choose certain dialogue options before the dreadnought mission, it becomes clear that Koris had no viable alternative to war. His plan was basically to drift in their fleet as long as they could and hope the Reapers didn't find them, which by necessity would mean the Quarians could not help the wider war effort. Gerrel's invasion was perhaps brash, and certainly bears risks, but it's far less risky IMO than an encounter with the Reapers in space, where a single destroyer taking a potshot at a single liveship would doom 1/3rd of the remaining population to starve to death.

As for why the entire fleet had to tag along, that's another essay. Suffice to say, I don't believe retreat during the Dreadnought mission was ever a viable option.

Gerrel's invasion is more than brash, for it to not end in disaster it entirely depends on the wishful thinking of the Reapers acting in a manner that is completely to the benefit of the Quarians and utterly detrimental to the Reapers own interests. Surely the Quarians would consider the actions of the Reapers when strategizing about retaking Rannoch, which is why I find them actually attempting it to be implausibly stupid.

As far as alternatives go why wouldn't running in space be better than a plan that is certain suicide if the Reapers show the slightest strategic aptitude? In-universe the Reapers are regarded as deadly foes, so you'd assume the Quarian military would consider them to be very good strategists.

Sure the Quarians wouldn't be able to offer the war effort much support but then again getting vaporized over Rannoch on the delusional hope that the Reapers would just let you act as you please doesn't help the galaxy either.

The game at least has the Reapers take the initiative to intervene in the Geth/Quarian conflict. Gerrell's plan would have killed the Quarians if the Reapers weren't so kind as to only send a Destroyer instead of a squadron of Dreadnoughts. He sure is depending on the Reapers pulling a lot of punches.

If the plan was to house the civilians on Rannoch that predictably failed the moment the Reapers became aware of the Geth/Quarian conflict. After Priority: Rannoch, why would the Quarians think Rannoch isn't going to be imminently attacked? Why wouldn't the Reapers retaliate other than the writers making them completely inept, of course. If the Reapers see Quarian ships helping with transportation why don't the Reapers immediately begin harvesting the Quarian civilians, broadcast the footage across the galaxy, and force the Quarian fleets to return?

To me the writing gives the impression that the Quarians are either complete idiots or have meta-knowledge of ME3's script, either way it isn't good.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 08 janvier 2014 - 01:49 .

[DeinonSlayer]

@wolfhowwl
"Running ain't a plan, running's what you do when a plan fails."

I've said it already: even before the Reaper war, the fleet was dependent on external infrastructure for basic survival. This infrastructure is rapidly being destroyed, and never existed in the first place between star clusters where it's suggested the Quarians try to hide. They aren't self-sufficient. They can't simply park somewhere and wait it out; they will atrophy and die even if they never come under Reaper attack.

Mass Effect: Ascension tells us that, at the rate ships are breaking down versus the rate new ships are acquired, the fleet can only survive another eighty years, tops - this would happen faster hiding in the void where they can't find new ships to replace old ones. According to Vigil, the Reapers spend centuries scouring the galaxy in each extinction cycle to eliminate all trace of every civilization they target, so that alone screws them - even if they somehow evaded detection, they simply cannot survive in space that long. In any case, they are not mobile enough to run - the fleet takes days to traverse a single relay (per the codex), and they'd still need to find gas giants suitable to discharge their drive cores and refuel which requires stopping and waiting to skim and refine said fuel, enough for the entire fleet. If a handful of dreadnoughts run across them at any time and spear the liveships, or the fuel miners, or the refinery, even if the rest of the fleet runs away, they're finished.

Attempting to hide in space until the Reapers go away will result in the extinction of the Quarian race. Period. There's simply no getting around it. They can't afford to paralyze themselves out of fear of what the Reapers might do.

Hide, and you'll die alone. No one can take your people in even if they wanted to; they're overwhelmed by their own refugees. It's still extremely high risk, but their only choice (unless they can spontaneously pull a substitute world out of their collective butts) is to dump the civvies on Rannoch, pour everything they have into the war effort, finish the Crucible as quickly as possible (far faster than it could be done without their aid), and (along with everyone else) hope it isn't a dud.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 08 janvier 2014 - 02:10 .

[Hazegurl]

AlanC9 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
I guess I'm not following why it matters if something's "alive" or not. 

And are we talking about Reapers, Geth, EDI, or all of them?

The question is why does it matter so much to you if they are considered alive or not if that is the point your trying to make.
Oh and just because it is my opinion that they aren't alive doesn't mean I care about whether they are or not, so no it doesn't matter. But if asked for my opinion. My response is none of them are.   

Without knowing what "alive" means I can't say whether it matters or not. Right now it's coming across as a completely meaningless term. It's like pointing out that asari are blue.

ah, sounds like a personal issue, then.

[Hazegurl]

wolfhowwl wrote...

The game at least has the Reapers take the initiative to intervene in the Geth/Quarian conflict. Gerrell's plan would have killed the Quarians if the Reapers weren't so kind as to only send a Destroyer instead of a squadron of Dreadnoughts. He sure is depending on the Reapers pulling a lot of punches.

Personally, I think it would have made more sense for the Reapers to simply offer aid to blow the Quarians to hell so that the Geth could focus on aiding them with the harvest. It's not like it would have taken all day and the Quarians would have had zero help from anyone.  The only reason why the Quarians last until the Rannoch arc is for plot reasons. It makes their war with the Geth even more stupid.

[Cakcedny]

Agreed, OP.
Additionally, I was wondering if all the DLCs were made to prove some points. Turns out that Overlord has to be the one that adds something to this hidden plot. You know, Cerberus attempting to control the Geth resulting in a hybrid intelligence somewhat linked to the Synthesis ending. Aside of this, this DLC is pointless per se.
And remember Joker's line in EDI's AI core during Normandy abduction? "I've spent thousand times computing pi while .... plugged in the overlord." Does this mean that Overlord was meant to be one of the main plot of Cerberus?

Modifié par Cakcedny, 08 janvier 2014 - 05:10 .