4303 réponses à ce sujet

[Hrungr]

Earthbound N wrote...

Is that a scythe?

Its also a customisable, high impact sniper rifle.

My Inquisitor wants this cloak.
Wants this cloak - now.

[Heimdall]

HopHazzard wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Major feels trip like Elsa's Reply but only click if you've already seen Frozen

why 

It gets worse. 
www.youtube.com/watch

This fandom knows just how to shatter our hearts in the best possible way 

[Heimdall]

@The Ethereal Writer Redux

See, where I feel I must disagree with you is that I don't think there was a better way to handle it. I mean, they told the trolls what they were going to do and they didn't have any objections apparently. What if Elsa accidently hurt someone else? That would destroy her just as much if not more than her isolation, not to mention make her a pariah in the eyes of her one-day-subjects. They had to take that into consideration. They knew it was related to emotion and, apparently, only growing more unstable as she aged, so they thought she needed to control her emotions before being around others. It isn't ideal, but horrible feels too strong.  There really just wasn't much else they could do.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 27 janvier 2014 - 02:56 .

[LPPrince]

And to add to what Aesir said, they didn't keep her away because they were ashamed of her. They did it to protect her and protect their people.

She hits someone else, they die. People incite a riot, wanting to be rid of her. What happens then? Nothing good.

Elsa's powers are seen by the public in the movie and the moment that happens, people freak out. Babies are crying, people are backing up, etc etc

Mage-to Circle Tower was the best option.

[TEWR]

And to add to what Aesir said, they didn't keep her away because they were ashamed of her. They did it to protect her and protect their people.

Right. I'm not contesting that. Merely stating that it could be seen that way, because it kinda comes off that way.

It was done out of love. But it also can be seen (and it's a valid outlook, right or no) as being done out of shame.

Hence why I said "It ran along the lines of...."

Elsa's powers are seen by the public in the movie and the moment that happens, people freak out. Babies are crying, people are backing up, etc etc

To be fair, her powers were severely unstable when they were first revealed, because she had no training or control over them.

Now, I'll say this much. It's entirely possible that they had some plan in store to help Elsa that would've transpired had their voyage not gone ship-shape.

But they didn't just isolate Elsa, they isolated themselves as well. Perhaps again out of love, so that if one member of the family must be kept away from the people they all would be, as a family.

I can understand isolating Elsa, to a point. I disagree with it, but I can at least understand why they did it. I can't understand isolating themselves as well -- the castle gates had NEVER been opened again after the incident, until Elsa's coronation -- because how can you rule your people if you don't know them?

I mean, they told the trolls what they were going to do and they didn't have any objections apparently.

That doesn't mean you can't go to the trolls for advice from time to time. You don't need to bring Elsa. Just questions and concerns.

They knew it was related to emotion and, apparently, only growing more unstable as she aged

Correlation does not imply causation, Lord Aesir. While as she grew older it was certainly seen as more unstable, that does not mean age was the direct cause of the increased instability.

The instability is tied to control. Control is tied to training, not repression. Once Elsa masters her powers, because she finally figures out what allows her to control them, the people come to adore her.

Mage-to Circle Tower was the best option.

But that's not a great comparison really, because even the Circle Tower trains its people to control their powers, not ignore them and hope it all works out. The only similarity is the isolation.

[LPPrince]

They were teaching her. They knew it was related to emotion, hence dad telling her to calm down as it "only makes it worse".

They didn't get to finish.

[Cainhurst Crow]

What circle tower? Why are we opening this mage-templar can of worms here?

[Heimdall]

Remember, Elsa's father seemed fairly certain she could learn to control it. The thinking seemed to be that she could work out how to keep her powers under control with time.  I don't want to presume too much about what the Trolls know, but it seems to me that they gave them the gist of it "fear will be your enemy" (I have to assume that if they knew something like "love will let you control it", they would have let Elsa in on that trick).  That's why her parents isolated the castle, to give her a lower risk environment.  Elsa had to take the step from there.  There's only so much they could do.  My point isn't that they did a perfect job, only that there wasn't much they could do better.

it doesn't really matter whether age made it more unstable, only that it was getting more unstable and powerful over time.

I don't know how isolated they were, the King and Queen atleast could still come and go.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 27 janvier 2014 - 05:29 .

[LPPrince]

It left quite a bit to interpretation.

[Silfren]

I dunno, I tend to agree with TEWR that Elsa's parents did more harm than good because they acted to bury her powers rather than have her learn to control them. I didn't get the impression from the movie that they were teaching her or helping her learn to control them at all. They simply enacted a policy of complete and utter denial.

I don't think that they were doing the best they could, or that it was the only thing they could have done. Rather than simply having a healthy respect for her inexplicable power, Elsa spent the entirety of her childhood living in abject terror of it, and it's clear that that did nothing at all to help her control it. Moreover, it nearly destroyed the relationship between the sisters. Even Anna makes that point, that they all would have been better off by FACING the problem instead of trying to pretend it never existed, when she points out that part of the disaster is directly caused by Elsa's refusal to ever tell her the truth.

In Anna's song where Elsa gets a verse talking about being the good girl she always has to be, you see quite clearly that she spent her entire life being told she had repress it at all costs, but there's nothing in that anywhere to indicate that she was ever encouraged to learn to control it properly. Just to hide it and pretend it never existed. How effective a ruler do any of you honestly think Elsa could have been when, thanks to her parents, she spent every waking hour focusing on her fear of her ice powers and what might happen if she ever slipped up?

I'm not saying they were evil parents. But they unquestionably did a world of harm to Elsa and the entire situation by taking the position that the best option was to live in denial.

Also, it was not related to emotion in the sense that her ice powers stemmed from her emotional state.  Rather it was that because she didn't have any real control, that her powers surged out of control whenever she was upset.  You can see that well enough in the opening sequence between the two young girls: Elsa's powers just sort of happen; her being angry or happy has nothing to do with it.  That first accident was Anna's fault, a point that is overlooked here: Elsa didn't zap her in the head because she lost control of her power, whether because her emotional state was chaotic or not.  Anna wasn't paying attention and she was moving too fast for Elsa to keep up.  THAT is what caused the accident, not emotion or anything else.  Elsa was overwhelmed with guilt, but the fact is, she and her parents reacted to the accident in absolutely the worst way possible, and for the wrong reasons. 

Modifié par Silfren, 27 janvier 2014 - 06:32 .

[TEWR]

Remember, Elsa's father seemed fairly certain she could learn to control it.

By hiding and suppressing them. Telling a very psychologically scarred child "Conceal your powers, suppress your emotions" isn't going to help. Elsa spent every day living in fear of those powers.

Elsa's father kept saying "Remember... 'Conceal, don't feel'. That's not control, that's suppression.

Also, what Silfren said (thanks Silfren!), which is what I've been trying to get at and not doing a very good job of it after my spoilery post.

What circle tower? Why are we opening this mage-templar can of worms here?

If you'd like, we can see if we can shoehorn Loghain into here somehow

But seriously, more Frozen and less DA.

I don't want to presume too much about what the Trolls know, but it seems to me that they gave them the gist of it "fear will be your enemy" (I have to assume that if they knew something like "love will let you control it", they would have let Elsa in on that trick). T

Well, they knew love was key to reversing a curse caused by her powers, so it's fairly likely they knew about love's relationship with her powers.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 janvier 2014 - 06:33 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Remember, Elsa's father seemed fairly certain she could learn to control it.

By hiding and suppressing them. Telling a very psychologically scarred child "Conceal your powers, suppress your emotions" isn't going to help. Elsa spent every day living in fear of those powers.

Elsa's father kept saying "Remember... 'Conceal, don't feel'. That's not control, that's suppression.

Also, what Silfren said (thanks Silfren!), which is what I've been trying to get at and not doing a very good job of it after my spoilery post.

What circle tower? Why are we opening this mage-templar can of worms here?

If you'd like, we can see if we can shoehorn Loghain into here somehow

But seriously, more Frozen and less DA.

I don't want to presume too much about what the Trolls know, but it seems to me that they gave them the gist of it "fear will be your enemy" (I have to assume that if they knew something like "love will let you control it", they would have let Elsa in on that trick). T

Well, they knew love was key to reversing a curse caused by her powers, so it's fairly likely they knew about love's relationship with her powers.

Welcome.  I also edited it to add a final point, because it occurs to me that everyone is forgetting that the girls' parents didn't see the accident and so they just assumed that what happened was Elsa not being able to control her powers.  Objectively, though, what happened was that Anna got careless, as small children are wont to do, and was too caught up in having fun to pay attention to Elsa's cries for her to slow down.  Elsa was trying to keep up with Anna and keep her from falling and getting hurt, but she couldn't move fast enough to keep up with Anna, who simply wasn't paying attention.  Ultimately it was that, and not lack of control on Elsa's part, which caused the accident and the woefully inappropriate response that followed.  Had there been some acknowledgement of that fact, Elsa might not have been left to feel totally at fault for hurting Anna and made to spend her life too terrified to even try learning to control her abilities. Poor Elsa...

Modifié par Silfren, 27 janvier 2014 - 06:40 .

[LPPrince]

Thats just it. When Elsa wants to use her powers, she's fully in control, without a hitch. Even as a little girl she was able to do it.

When she's getting emotional is when she can't control it. Its literally that simple. Elsa was terrified of her future power thanks to the ice strike and Mance Rayder's warning of its danger. That caused her to constantly create ice without wanting to, just by touching things. Hence the gloves, the "conceal, don't feel", and keeping it that way till she could learn to keep everything under control. Because of the public and such(just other people in general really), you get "don't let it show".

We saw what happened when she did let it show to the public. Yet again, unwillingly.

She touches a fountain and it turns to ice. People get scared out of their pants. Now imagine she was just greeting the couple with their baby, and rubbed their baby's cheek or something out of kindness.

Dead baby. Yeeeeeah, that'd go over well.

She basically has the Midas Touch except instead of everything she touches turning into gold, its ice. Surprise, thats gonna mess with your head.

Modifié par LPPrince, 27 janvier 2014 - 06:47 .

[LPPrince]

We can agree on this tho

She turned out okay when she Let It Go

[Silfren]

LPPrince wrote...

Thats just it. When Elsa wants to use her powers, she's fully in control, without a hitch. Even as a little girl she was able to do it.

When she's getting emotional is when she can't control it. Its literally that simple. Elsa was terrified of her future power thanks to the ice strike and Mance Rayder's warning of its danger. That caused her to constantly create ice without wanting to, just by touching things. Hence the gloves, the "conceal, don't feel", and keeping it that way till she could learn to keep everything under control. Because of the public and such(just other people in general really), you get "don't let it show".

We saw what happened when she did let it show to the public. Yet again, unwillingly.

She touches a fountain and it turns to ice. People get scared out of their pants. Now imagine she was just greeting the couple with their baby, and rubbed their baby's cheek or something out of kindness.

Dead baby. Yeeeeeah, that'd go over well.

You're still missing the point, though.  If her parents had gone about it differently, she might not have spent the rest of her childhood steeping in her fear.  Her mother and father ENCOURAGED her to be afraid of her powers.  Of course she was upset over what happened to her sister, and of course it frightened her.  But she was a child, that's to be expected.  Her parents had every opportunity to help her work through that fear and move past it, which they very well could have done.  Instead, again, they encouraged and supported her fear of it, and insisted that she focus on repressing it and hiding it from the world.  NOTHING about any of those scenes suggests that they were trying to help her learn to actually CONTROL her power.  So Elsa grew up being afraid of her power and hiding from it.  We see that whenever she is upset and freaking out, her response is to lock herself in her room and huddle in the fetal position while ice spills out of her hands and literally covers the walls. 

It's never suggested that Elsa's parents simply wanted her to hide it and repress it until she could control it.  Rather, it comes across that they just wanted her to repress it, period.  The entire thrust of that part of the movie is to drive home that Elsa's been taught to live in constant fear, that she has to bury her emotions down.  I don't know where people are getting the idea that Elsa's parents wanted her to learn to control her powers.  Nowhere is it even hinted that they wanted her to spend time learning to control them.  If anything it is all but spelled out that they actively discouraged her trying to do anything with her powers at all. 

[LPPrince]

Silfren wrote...

It's never suggested that Elsa's parents simply wanted her to hide it and repress it until she could control it.

Yes it is. Literally in the first lines.

Mance Rayder- "There is beauty in it, but also great danger. You must learn to control it. Fear will be your enemy."

Dad- "No! We will protect her. She can learn to control it, I'm sure. Till then, lock the gates. We'll reduce the staff. We'll limit her contact with people, keep her powers hidden from everyone. Including Anna."

Modifié par LPPrince, 27 janvier 2014 - 07:09 .

[TEWR]

hen Elsa wants to use her powers, she's fully in control, without a hitch. Even as a little girl she was able to do it.

If she was fully in control when she wanted to use her powers, there wouldn't have been an endless winter going on. As it stands, that's a pretty big hitch. Let it Go shows what Elsa's potential is, along with the psychological stuff behind it all, but never does it show she's in complete control of her powers. She merely thinks she is.

As a little girl, she hadn't had a reason to fear her powers until the incident.

Also Silfren's post.

[TEWR]

LPPrince wrote...

Silfren wrote...

It's never suggested that Elsa's parents simply wanted her to hide it and repress it until she could control it.

Yes it is. Literally in the first lines.

Mance Rayder- "There is beauty in it, but also great danger. You must learn to control it. Fear will be your enemy."

Dad- "No! We will protect her. She can learn to control it, I'm sure. Till then, lock the gates. We'll reduce the staff. We'll limit her contact with people, keep her powers hidden from everyone. Including Anna."

But what they did was make her fear it. By denying her confrontation with her powers and practice (perhaps in isolated areas they could travel to. After all, they are royalty) fear continued to grow. It wasn't something they did knowingly, but it was something they did.

The only time they addressed her powers over the course of time was when they started to manifest on their own.

They're, again, not bad parents totally. Just bad parents -- or rather, good parents who made bad decisions if you prefer -- in regards to how they addressed a situation that was, understandably, not something they were familiar with on their own.

But I'm tired. I can probably go into more depth into what I'm trying to get across tomorrow, because I've been a zombie all day.

BRAAAAIIIIINNNNNSSSS.....

[LPPrince]

I'm seeing too many hypotheticals. Too much, "If they did something different" and "Maybe if they did this", when there's no guarantee.

We know what there is. Elsa, with her manipulation over ice, almost killed someone accidentally with her power.

King Beyond The Wall says she needs to learn to control it, and that her emotions(specifically fear) will be a problem.

In the absence of any sort of Circle Tower type thing for mages to learn how not to kill people with a sneeze(since nothing suggests that something like that exists), they basically made their home a Circle Tower.

Keep it locked from the outside world, away from people, and train the mage in question(Elsa in this case) how to control her power. Even better in this case because once she can do that, once there's a certainty that accidents will no longer happen, everything will go back to normal.

Only Elsa's emotions stand in the way of that. Elsa's being afraid stems not from what her parents did but from what came before, and even her parents' efforts to calm her down and help her relax wasn't enough to overcome her personal fear of hurting someone like that again. Having her in front of other people practicing might sound like a good idea, but given the fact she almost killed someone incidentally, its a huge risk. Especially if worst came to worst and the populace found out. And thats assuming Elsa would even want to, given her longstanding fear of damaging others.

So I don't think I can ever agree that the onus was on them, or that they could've done things better and are responsible for Elsa's state. They tried their best with what they had, but it was really on Elsa to develop and change, given it was a psychological thing.

They tried to help her psychologically, but then lolboat

NOW I POST TEH HAPPIES BECAUSE DEBATES LIKE THIS DON'T USUALLY HAVE TEH HAPPIES

[Heimdall]

...I'm too tired to type much so... I agree with LPPrince.

Maybe there were ways to do things a little better, but Elsa's insecurities and fears weren't created by her isolation or her parents' actions. They have their root in the incident with Anna.  Her parents tried to teach her not to let those feelings control her, but their lack of success doesn't make their actions wrong.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 27 janvier 2014 - 01:09 .

[HopHazzard]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Silfren wrote...

It's never suggested that Elsa's parents simply wanted her to hide it and repress it until she could control it.

Yes it is. Literally in the first lines.

Mance Rayder- "There is beauty in it, but also great danger. You must learn to control it. Fear will be your enemy."

Dad- "No! We will protect her. She can learn to control it, I'm sure. Till then, lock the gates. We'll reduce the staff. We'll limit her contact with people, keep her powers hidden from everyone. Including Anna."

But what they did was make her fear it. By denying her confrontation with her powers and practice (perhaps in isolated areas they could travel to. After all, they are royalty) fear continued to grow. It wasn't something they did knowingly, but it was something they did.

The only time they addressed her powers over the course of time was when they started to manifest on their own.

They're, again, not bad parents totally. Just bad parents -- or rather, good parents who made bad decisions if you prefer -- in regards to how they addressed a situation that was, understandably, not something they were familiar with on their own.

But I'm tired. I can probably go into more depth into what I'm trying to get across tomorrow, because I've been a zombie all day.

BRAAAAIIIIINNNNNSSSS.....

I think they were well-intentioned, but ultimately did the exact opposite of what they should have done. Unfortunately what they did only served to create a perpetual cycle of fear and shame that prevented Elsa from ever gaining control over her powers. But I wouldn't go so far as to say they  were bad or abusive parents. What they did was make a tragic mistake in their approach to dealing with the situation, but in fairness, it's not like there was a lot of information for them to draw on.

Then again, if they had done a better job, there wouldn't have been a movie.

[Heimdall]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

What circle tower? Why are we opening this mage-templar can of worms here?

I don't know if it was before me, but some pages ago I noted that Disney actually did a superior job than Bioware in communicating the whole "Dangers of Magic" argument.  I mean, aside from a few stories about childhood accidents (Which are usually more amusing than anything else) most mages in DA are totally in control unless they've been turned into fire spitting abominations.  By contrast, Elsa nearly killed her sister and has trouble not freezing her general vicinity by accident.  I'm convinced she can be a danger without meaning to be, less so with DA mages.

Mage-Circle comparisons having been cropping up since.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 27 janvier 2014 - 01:42 .

[LPPrince]

"Abusive" makes me laugh. Tumblr loves that word. I don't think they know what it means.

[Heimdall]

LPPrince wrote...

"Abusive" makes me laugh. Tumblr loves that word. I don't think they know what it means.

True

But Frozen is pretty dark as far as Disney goes.  I can't think of any others that start off with a near accidental child fratricide and the death of the parents.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 27 janvier 2014 - 01:51 .

[LPPrince]

Spoilers, brah. hahaha