1537 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

I made some posts in another thread, but is locking kept me from getting more replies. So I want to repost them and get some debate and some other ideas of what people think is a good solution.

"If given the option, I will turn my Inquisition organization into the new Templar organization. And I will make laws that enforce checks and balances that will make damn sure that neither side gets too powerful, they need to stay even or we get another mage Templar war again someday. And this doesn't mean Circles, my new Templars won't be locking mages in a Tower or in Gallows. There will be mage villages where orphan mages or those abandoned by their parents and those still in training can stay, and mages who have parents will be allowed to stay with their parents for a couple months a year as a sort of summer vacation. Mages who have graduated can then leave the village to live with their parents or pursue careers or continue to live in the village and mentor other mages or whatever they want. Templars will be more like a controlled police force rather than an army. Fanatics will actually be disqualified from being Templars, and the more secular a Templar is the more likely they are to be considered for enlistment. There will also be a force of mage-Templars, mages who join the Templar organization to support the Templars. Mages are better at handling other mages than Templars are, mages who wish to help will be most welcome editions. Each village will have a small group of authorized blood mages to help combat other blood mages, and because blood mages can detect demons inside other mages, and because known blood mages will be an asset as they will know the signs of other blood mages and will be far better at picking up the subtle signs than the Templars could ever be. These blood mages will go through rigorous testing and checks to make sure they are of strong moral fiber and ethics who won't abuse their power, and they will be the only ones allowed to be blood mages. Fact is blood magic is going to happen in Circles/my villages, so it's best to make it legal but very limited and restricted and regulated, and these blood mages will help to make sure no unauthorized ones are in the village.

I now realize a good way to describe what I think is the best way to handle things. It's like the Ferelden mage collective combined with the Templar organization, mixed with much more freedom and actual living than the current system"

(response from Lotion)

"I would say "too impractical".

I just don't see your plan working.
It's easy to say "X will go trough a rigorous test for strong moral fiber and character"... but can you tell me what that test will be?
And how will people react to your rejection of religious poeple (almsot all of them) from the "new templar" force"

(back to me again)

"I don't care how they react. They want to eject my new Templars, then they will just have to realize that if a mage-caused disaster happens, we will have to take a while to handle it thanks to them not letting us near enough to be fast responders. First time that happens, I think people will adjust and just accept how we do things from then on. Religious fervor is partly why Templars are so corrupt, they feel they're God's little soldiers and they everything they do is by divine right. I don't need a bunch of highly religious people that feel they are owed power because they're on the Maker's side. Besides, the public won't know what our system is, normal people won't even realize we reject people for those reasons.

The test will be complicated, and will take weeks of verification. Let's just say it will be the only time my Templars take things kinda back to the Circle ways. They will be isolated and cut off for weeks during the evaluations, watched very strictly and closely. They will be given constant tests of character and will, and half the time they won't even realize it's part of the test. Send in undercover mages and ask them to teach them blood magic under the table. have mages and Templars request the testee to help them in selfless ways that the testee will have no expected reward but merely helps to be helpful and because it's the right thing to do. Very long and detailed interviews with someone good at recognizing lies. the final test will be making Templars do a fake scenario where they accuse the testee of doing blood magic during the test and attempt to (outwardly) execute the mage and see if they use blood magic as a last ditch effort to save themselves and if they don't then they pass, kinda like a "hold a man over a volcano and then you will truly learn what kind of person they are" thing. If being falsely accussed and about to be killed doesn't push them into using it for survival, they are likely not to ever abuse it.

I'm sure I could think of more for the test. Bottom line, it won't be easy to fake your way through. The final test is just about 100% sure to weed out the ones not qualified."

Modifié par andy69156915, 06 janvier 2014 - 03:50 .

[Knight of Dane]

Cake

[The Elder King]

This is one of the ideas I have.
http://social.biowar.../index/14666109

[andy6915]

hhh89 wrote...

This is one of the ideas I have.
http://social.biowar.../index/14666109

Judging from that thread, you agree with my idea? Because it sounds (...Reads, more like) it.

[Magdalena11]

If I could choose I would re-establish the circles with minimal templar presence. Anyone who had achieved the rank of enchanter would be permitted to come and go with a sign-in sheet. Junior mages and apprentices would be confined to the tower since their training is not complete but still permitted the liberty of supervised trips to the outside world. Mages would elect their own leaders. Mages would be permitted to assemble.

Templars would be retained in the circle building for harrowings or in the event of lawlessness within the building. They would be permitted to enter mage-only areas with the permission of the mages. In case of serious, substantiated claims of danger they could appeal to enter the mages' area with something like a search warrant. Templars would not be required to preside over low-risk gatherings such as meals.

The practice of harrowing mages, while unpleasant to all participants, would be retained as a safeguard from any mages who are not strong enough to resist demonic influence. The rite of tranquility would continue to be an option for those apprentices who fear harrowing or are deemed by their (mage) superiors to be too poor a risk. The practice of keeping phyllacteries would continue despite it being blood magic because if a mage did go rogue he or she would need to be tracked down.

This is my hypothetical solution and I don't expect others will agree with me. They are free to voice their own solutions and I will not make statements arguing their merits or faults.

[The Elder King]

andy69156915 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

This is one of the ideas I have.
http://social.biowar.../index/14666109

Judging from that thread, you agree with my idea? Because it sounds (...Reads, more like) it.

It seems a possible solution, though I don't agree with all the things you said. But I don't have the time to respond in full. As soon as I can, I'll do it.

[andy6915]

Magdalena11 wrote...

If I could choose I would re-establish the circles with minimal templar presence. Anyone who had achieved the rank of enchanter would be permitted to come and go with a sign-in sheet. Junior mages and apprentices would be confined to the tower since their training is not complete but still permitted the liberty of supervised trips to the outside world. Mages would elect their own leaders. Mages would be permitted to assemble.

Templars would be retained in the circle building for harrowings or in the event of lawlessness within the building. They would be permitted to enter mage-only areas with the permission of the mages. In case of serious, substantiated claims of danger they could appeal to enter the mages' area with something like a search warrant. Templars would not be required to preside over low-risk gatherings such as meals.

The practice of harrowing mages, while unpleasant to all participants, would be retained as a safeguard from any mages who are not strong enough to resist demonic influence. The rite of tranquility would continue to be an option for those apprentices who fear harrowing or are deemed by their (mage) superiors to be too poor a risk. The practice of keeping phyllacteries would continue despite it being blood magic because if a mage did go rogue he or she would need to be tracked down.

This is my hypothetical solution and I don't expect others will agree with me. They are free to voice their own solutions and I will not make statements arguing their merits or faults.

I find Tranquility to be horrible no matter what. I think something better like an underground prison surrounded by Lyrium to block the Fade so they can't summon demons would be more humane than literally destroying their sense of self.

The Harrowing... I don't know. There has to be better ways, there just has to be. The Dalish don't need it, Rivain doesn't need it, Hawke and Bethany didn't need it for their father to know they were well trained and not a danger. Problem is, I think some system would need established. So I don't know where I stand on ways to test mages for their graduation, but I do think the Harrowing itself was a bad method.

I do like your first and second paragraph though, those sound good.

[TheKomandorShepard]

My solution is easy and practical kill mages...
And before you will say that won't solve problem because of new-born mages i will explain my solution...

First is get rid of chantry and current templars why many of them is corrupted ,many of them is brainwashed into chantry hypocritical morals and some of them is too soft... (of course first they need kill each other wirh current mages)

Next step is creating new order anti-mages that is independent but country where they are woking have to pay them for hunting mages.Order will train new anti-mages when they are childrens taught them to be complete ruthlessness toward mages and extremely dedicated to their job also trening will be much more exhausting to deal with mages.

another step is changing the law now any mages will be hunted down and killed and anyone helping them will be heavily punished and if someone will help caputre mage will be rewarded.Now new anti-magical organisation instead watch mages what don't work and consumes only resources and time will focused in 100 % on hunting mages and killing them.      

And now you are probably try save yourself with argument that mages are needed but as far only for grey warden joining so i m ready give grey wardens few mages but on very restrictive conditions. They are imprisoned and watched in rare cases like blight they are allowed to work in the field but still watched.   

[The Elder King]

@Thekomandorshepard: good luck in fighting the qunari.

[andy6915]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

My solution is easy and practical kill mages...

...



Right, not taking this post seriously. Combined with your terrible grammar and I just can't be bothered to actually argue this post.

[TheKomandorShepard]

hhh89 wrote...

@Thekomandorshepard: good luck in fighting the qunari.

Now we have separate matter without chantry restrictions and mages humans will start develop in some matter for example technology and medicine... Besides mages aren't very useful outside healres and still not worth rampagin unstoppable that kills your own peoples.I bet humans can take qunari especially if they will unite. 

andy69156915 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

My solution is easy and practical kill mages...

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/pouty.png[/smilie]...

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

Right,
not taking this post seriously. Combined with your terrible grammar and
I just can't be bothered to actually argue this post.

There is no reason to cry about it if you don't have arguments and yes mages are walking bomb that are dangerous for everything damge caused by them to that point is massive. So yes they can't be controled best way is kill them...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 06 janvier 2014 - 04:32 .

[Veruin]

andy69156915 wrote..

I find Tranquility to be horrible no matter what. I think something better like an underground prison surrounded by Lyrium to block the Fade so they can't summon demons would be more humane than literally destroying their sense of self.

The Harrowing... I don't know. There has to be better ways, there just has to be. The Dalish don't need it, Rivain doesn't need it, Hawke and Bethany didn't need it for their father to know they were well trained and not a danger. Problem is, I think some system would need established. So I don't know where I stand on ways to test mages for their graduation, but I do think the Harrowing itself was a bad method.

I do like your first and second paragraph though, those sound good.

Where does it say that lyrium blocks access to the fade?

The Dalish get one on one mentorship with their keeper and even then, they still get possessed.  We probably just don't hear about it as much with their nomadic and isolationist life style.

Seers willingly allow "benevolent" spirits to possess them, and when one spirit is already inhabiting a body, another spirit cannot take it.  So there's not much point in the first place. 

Hawke mentions that they braved the fade before, so it's implied they Malcom DID make them take a harrowing.

For the most part, the harrowing seems to be a pop quiz of sorts....just with more grave consequences.  Mages know they have to take it and they study for it.  Like with facing a real demon, you just don't know when it's going to happen.

Modifié par Veruin, 06 janvier 2014 - 04:32 .

[Afro_Explosion]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@Thekomandorshepard: good luck in fighting the qunari.

Now we have separate matter without chantry restrictions and mages humans will start develop in some matter for example technology and medicine... Besides mages aren't very useful outside healres and still not worth rampagin unstoppable that kills your own peoples.I bet humans can take qunari especially if they will unite. 

You do realize mages will still be born and it will take centuries to catch up to the qunari. They wont wait centuries to invade.

[andy6915]

Veruin wrote...

andy69156915 wrote..

I find Tranquility to be horrible no matter what. I think something better like an underground prison surrounded by Lyrium to block the Fade so they can't summon demons would be more humane than literally destroying their sense of self.

The Harrowing... I don't know. There has to be better ways, there just has to be. The Dalish don't need it, Rivain doesn't need it, Hawke and Bethany didn't need it for their father to know they were well trained and not a danger. Problem is, I think some system would need established. So I don't know where I stand on ways to test mages for their graduation, but I do think the Harrowing itself was a bad method.

I do like your first and second paragraph though, those sound good.

Where does it say that lyrium blocks access to the fade?

The Dalish get one on one mentorship with their keeper and even then, they still get possessed.  We probably just don't hear about it as much with their nomadic and isolationist life style.

Seers willingly allow "benevolent" spirits to possess them, and when one spirit is already inhabiting a body, another spirit cannot take it.  So there's not much point in the first place. 

Hawke mentions that they braved the fade before, so it's implied they Malcom DID make them take a harrowing.

For the most part, the harrowing seems to be a pop quiz of sorts....just with more grave consequences.  Mages know they have to take it and they study for it.  Like with facing a real demon, you just don't know when it's going to happen.

Dwarves did have a Fade conneftion once, and living underground is what disconnected them from it.

00:44



Of course, that is just an in-universe hypothesis.

[TheKomandorShepard]

mx_keep13 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@Thekomandorshepard: good luck in fighting the qunari.

Now we have separate matter without chantry restrictions and mages humans will start develop in some matter for example technology and medicine... Besides mages aren't very useful outside healres and still not worth rampagin unstoppable that kills your own peoples.I bet humans can take qunari especially if they will unite. 

You do realize mages will still be born and it will take centuries to catch up to the qunari. They wont wait centuries to invade.

Read my previous text i said what do with that... How do you know when they will invade maybe now maybe not still i pointed they can take them if they can't mages hardly will do difference they aren't ninja from naruto. 

[Veruin]

andy69156915 wrote...

Dwarves did have a Fade conneftion once, and living underground is what disconnected them from it.

While lyrium did play a part, I'm pretty sure it's because of the generations they spent being exposed to the stuff and not because they happen to be under ground.  If that was the case, the mages that go to orzammar should be powerless.  (Dagna epilogue slide)  So, not a practical solution.

Modifié par Veruin, 06 janvier 2014 - 04:38 .

[andy6915]

And also, they can't study for a Harrowing. They keep it completely secret as to what is involved, and then send you in ignorantly and without any form of weapon. They say it's to make sure that the mage can do it at their weakest, but I say it's stupid. It's like putting someone unarmed against a wolf to find out if they're a good warrior, it's a bad method.

If they told mages what was involved so they could prepare then I might, MIGHT be accepting of it... But not the current method.

And if that is how seers can't get possessed, then maybe putting a friendly Fade spirit into every mage is a solution to abominations?

[Afro_Explosion]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@Thekomandorshepard: good luck in fighting the qunari.

Now we have separate matter without chantry restrictions and mages humans will start develop in some matter for example technology and medicine... Besides mages aren't very useful outside healres and still not worth rampagin unstoppable that kills your own peoples.I bet humans can take qunari especially if they will unite. 

You do realize mages will still be born and it will take centuries to catch up to the qunari. They wont wait centuries to invade.

Read my previous text i said what do with that... How do you know when they will invade maybe now maybe not still i pointed they can take them if they can't mages hardly will do difference they aren't ninja from naruto. 

Mages were the counterpoint to the qunari cannons, even the qunari with their hatred of magic don't waste mages.

[Magdalena11]

andy69156915 wrote...

I find Tranquility to be horrible no matter what. I think something better like an underground prison surrounded by Lyrium to block the Fade so they can't summon demons would be more humane than literally destroying their sense of self.

The Harrowing... I don't know. There has to be better ways, there just has to be. The Dalish don't need it, Rivain doesn't need it, Hawke and Bethany didn't need it for their father to know they were well trained and not a danger. Problem is, I think some system would need established. So I don't know where I stand on ways to test mages for their graduation, but I do think the Harrowing itself was a bad method.

I do like your first and second paragraph though, those sound good.

I agree that tranquility is a terrible fate to consider but for my own game only, I think it's the best option currently available.  If the mages were to find a way to protect weak mages without tranquilizing them I'd be all for it, so if your idea worked and was available I'd definitely consider it.

I also agree that there must be a better way to test mages for weakness than harrowing.  While the Dalish don't need it they also produce very few mages who are tutored one-on-one with their keeper, much like mage Hawke and Bethany were.  Even in WoT they don't go into much detail about the Rivain circle and it was annulled anyway.  It could be that only the hedge-witch seers could take a pass on harrowing.

I guess my major point is that my inquisitor is going to have to work within the world as she finds it.  People aren't going to change overnight and some compromise may need to be worked out within the current mind-set of all groups, including the populace at large.

I applaud the non-challenging tone of your OP and hope the thread stays that way.

Modifié par Magdalena11, 06 janvier 2014 - 04:41 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

mx_keep13 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@Thekomandorshepard: good luck in fighting the qunari.

Now we have separate matter without chantry restrictions and mages humans will start develop in some matter for example technology and medicine... Besides mages aren't very useful outside healres and still not worth rampagin unstoppable that kills your own peoples.I bet humans can take qunari especially if they will unite. 

You do realize mages will still be born and it will take centuries to catch up to the qunari. They wont wait centuries to invade.

Read my previous text i said what do with that... How do you know when they will invade maybe now maybe not still i pointed they can take them if they can't mages hardly will do difference they aren't ninja from naruto. 

Mages were the counterpoint to the qunari cannons, even the qunari with their hatred of magic don't waste mages.

They don't hate them (well i guess many does) but sten said they feel sorry for them.Qunari think that they can control mages but incidents still happen like qunari mage who escaped and almost summoned army of demons to destroy world.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 06 janvier 2014 - 04:41 .

[andy6915]

Veruin wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

Dwarves did have a Fade conneftion once, and living underground is what disconnected them from it.

While lyrium did play a part, I'm pretty sure it's because of the generations they spent being exposed to the stuff and not because they live underground.  So, not a practical solution.

Even if Lyrium doesn't work, I just mean some kind of prison that drains mana or blocks the Fade or something that would keep mages from casting spells. There is already a mage prison, but the place has a specifcally weak veil so that possession is almost certain, which I find unethical and inhamane. Something like that, without the "you are definitely getting possessed part". If they could do it for that prison, they could do it for another.

Modifié par andy69156915, 06 janvier 2014 - 04:41 .

[Gorkanus]

KILL THEM ALL MAKER WILL TAKE THE TRUE BELIEVERS TO HEAVEN.
just joking
but i think this conflict cannot be solved peacefully if you think otherwise,im openminded.

[The Elder King]

@Thekomandorshepard: the qunari will likely invade before the rest of Thedas will catch up. They have spies around all the continent. They'll know when to act.
As for mages, no they're not like the uber-powerful ninja in Naruto (who aren't that much). But they are still a lot useful, other than for healing. The codex stated that they were determinant, along with the Felicisima Armada, during the first invasion.

[Veruin]

andy69156915 wrote...

Even if Lyrium doesn't work, I just mean some kind of prison that drains mana or blocks the Fade or something that would keep mages from casting spells. There is already a mage prison, but the place has a specifcally weak veil so that possession is almost certain, which I find unethical and inhamane. Something like that, without the "you are definitely getting possessed part". If they could do it for that prison, they could do it for another.

You can call it unethical and inhumane all you want.  That's a side effect of magic.  There's a reason the veils in circles are thin in the first place.  While small uses of magic don't do much to it, concentrated areas will have an effect.  
Unless you intend on funding and erecting multiple areas for mage prisons and circles as well as pay for their needs, along with getting the man power to keep them all in check, it's just not feasible.

Of course, this can be remedied if the chantry actually bothered to research methods to strengthen the veil.  Then again, we don't know if mages can strengthen the veil while it's not sundered, or if they have to wait for it to tear before they can do anything.

Glyphs like the neutralization one from origins could work, but it also says that if it's off in the slightest way it's powerless.  A quick bout of vandalism and the mage is free.

andy69156915 wrote...

And also, they can't study for a Harrowing. They keep it completely secret as to what is involved, and then send you in ignorantly and without any form of weapon. They say it's to make sure that the mage can do it at their weakest, but I say it's stupid. It's like putting someone unarmed against a wolf to find out if they're a good warrior, it's a bad method.

If they told mages what was involved so they could prepare then I might, MIGHT be accepting of it... But not the current method.

And if that is how seers can't get possessed, then maybe putting a friendly Fade spirit into every mage is a solution to abominations?

I'm iffy on that.  I can see why they keep it secret, but I also see that it also hurts them.

What weapon do you expect them to send them in with?  A sword?  They have their magic. and their wits.

While they don't tell you what the harrowing involves, I'm fairly certain demon resisting is still a class mages have to take.

Modifié par Veruin, 06 janvier 2014 - 04:53 .

[andy6915]

Magdalena11 wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

I find Tranquility to be horrible no matter what. I think something better like an underground prison surrounded by Lyrium to block the Fade so they can't summon demons would be more humane than literally destroying their sense of self.

The Harrowing... I don't know. There has to be better ways, there just has to be. The Dalish don't need it, Rivain doesn't need it, Hawke and Bethany didn't need it for their father to know they were well trained and not a danger. Problem is, I think some system would need established. So I don't know where I stand on ways to test mages for their graduation, but I do think the Harrowing itself was a bad method.

I do like your first and second paragraph though, those sound good.

I agree that tranquility is a terrible fate to consider but for my own game only, I think it's the best option currently available.  If the mages were to find a way to protect weak mages without tranquilizing them I'd be all for it, so if your idea worked and was available I'd definitely consider it.

I also agree that there must be a better way to test mages for weakness than harrowing.  While the Dalish don't need it they also produce very few mages who are tutored one-on-one with their keeper, much like mage Hawke and Bethany were.  Even in WoT they don't go into much detail about the Rivain circle and it was annulled anyway.  It could be that only the hedge-witch seers could take a pass on harrowing.

I guess my major point is that my inquisitor is going to have to work within the world as she finds it.  People aren't going to change overnight and some compromise may need to be worked out within the current mind-set of all groups, including the populace at large.

I applaud the non-challenging tone of your OP and hope the thread stays that way.

Thanks for the last part. I often get a little too much of an attitude when I post, so I'm trying to keep my tone and demeanor in check so that doesn't happen this time. So it's nice that I'm doing well so far.

I admit the Harrowing has a purpose, but I just want another way. But I can't think of a better way, so I'm just kinda floundering on it.

And yeah, I can't go too far against the common people. If I push it too far so that Thedus as a whole rejects my new Templars, then I have a problem that won't be easily fixed. I'm maybe being too hopeful of Thedus' acceptance levels with my idea.