1537 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarquindi]

I think mages should be allowed to just govern themselves. They should keep the mage towers, but only require that they stay there until they pass their tests. Then, if a mage goes rogue and experiments in blood magic, let the mages hunt their own kind down and deal with them. Not every mage is going to fall to corruption when given the opportunity to enjoy life. I'm sure every tower can find mages who would be dedicated enough to ensure that magic is not being mistreated.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

But "freedom" cannot ever be a reason goal.

How about fairness?

Treat everyone equally.

That would require that everybody is equal to begin with. Otherwise it is simply unfair.

[lady_v23]

dance off?

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

But "freedom" cannot ever be a reason goal.

How about fairness?

Treat everyone equally.

That would require that everybody is equal to begin with. Otherwise it is simply unfair.

Not everyone has to be equal for others to treat people equally.

Modifié par eluvianix, 07 janvier 2014 - 05:39 .

[Veruin]

eluvianix wrote...

Not everyone has to be equal for others to treat people equally.

When those qualities are so trivial that they do not matter, (man, woman, skin colour, possibly ideals, sexuality, etc), then no.  They don't.   I wouldn't consider magic to be trivial, especially with how magic works in DA.

Modifié par Veruin, 07 janvier 2014 - 05:46 .

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

But "freedom" cannot ever be a reason goal.

How about fairness?

Treat everyone equally.

That would require that everybody is equal to begin with. Otherwise it is simply unfair.

Not everyone has to be equal for others to treat people equally.

They should all embrace the Qun, everyone would have a equal place then.

[lil yonce]

@OP; I want nothing less than the Nevarran Accord which declares the Circle of Magi autonomous - but I want to make a few tweaks to it to ensure its autonomy in practice - and to ensure necessary restraints are placed on the Circle to prevent harmful/unlawful action where it reasonably can and punish it when it occurs.

[Sylvius the Mad]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

But "freedom" cannot ever be a reason goal.

How about fairness?

Treat everyone equally.

That would require that everybody is equal to begin with. Otherwise it is simply unfair.

What?  No, that's crazy.  It's fair to treat everyone equally, which then allows their natural talents and aptitudes to serve them unfettered by your meddling.

What, you want to hold people down because they're good at stuff?

We don't all need the same outcomes in order to have fairness.  We just all need to be governed by the same rules.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
Not everyone has to be equal for others to treat people equally.

But if that results is nothing but disfavorable outcomes for some, then they can hardly be condemned if they take steps to avoid it; the Circles being one such step.
I'd rather we not treat that which unequal as equal but instead focus on providing the best possible outcome for all parties while accounting for significant differences such as magic. 

[Augustei]

Anything but having them live as ordinary citizens among the rest of the populace since imo this is the worst case scenario. It would destroy the economy, The Mages would take all the work and as a result there would be riots and they would likely either all be killed and/or kill masses of people.
Not to mention riots will start anyway when cases of demonic possession no matter how isolated start to occur, Many of the libertarian fraternity seem to think they should just be regular citizens.. If they try to force the issue they will all die at my Inquisitors hands.

I am more likely to favor the Isolationist approach, Give them their own Isolated city and trust them to police themselves. But I cannot trust mages to design and implement the solution by themselves as that is far to risky and dangerous (no matter their intentions)

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 07 janvier 2014 - 06:50 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Anything but having them live as ordinary citizens among the rest of the populace since imo this is the worst case scenario. It would destroy the economy, The Mages would take all the work and as a result there would be riots and they would likely either all be killed and/or kill masses of people.
Not to mention riots will start anyway when cases of demonic possession no matter how isolated start to occur, Many of the libertarian fraternity seem to think they should just be regular citizens.. If they try to force the issue they will all die at my Inquisitors hands.

I am more likely to favor the Isolationist approach, Give them their own Isolated city and trust them to police themselves. But I cannot trust mages to design and implement the solution by themselves as that is far to risky and dangerous (no matter their intentions)

Galt's Gulch for mages?

[Augustei]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Genocide of the Elves. That is my solution.

Whatever is wrong with the Thedas, you can be sure it was the Elves fault.

Before every battle, we test all our weapons on Elves. If a choice between attacking the Darkspawn horde and the Elves come up, always kill the Elves first. That way, if you don't have any Grey Wardens, at least you can still win the battle. Plus, killing the Elves gives you time for the Grey Wardens to arrive.

And how do you stop the Mage/Templar problem? Kill the Elves.

Hmm you have some good points, and some excellent points.
A) When can we begin?
 Why havn't we done this sooner?
C) Can we start with the Dalish?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

But "freedom" cannot ever be a reason goal.

How about fairness?

Treat everyone equally.

That would require that everybody is equal to begin with. Otherwise it is simply unfair.

What?  No, that's crazy.  It's fair to treat everyone equally, which then allows their natural talents and aptitudes to serve them unfettered by your meddling.

What, you want to hold people down because they're good at stuff?

We don't all need the same outcomes in order to have fairness.  We just all need to be governed by the same rules.

Equal as in born equal. Needless to say, or so i thought anyway, you wouldn't treat a king equal to a peasant. Or for that matter in terms our "equal" modern society can fathom, you wouldn't treat a CEO equal to a vagrant.
But a mage is NOT the equal to a mundane. There are clear distinct differences between the two, which means they will need different rules and laws applied.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 07 janvier 2014 - 07:25 .

[Pasquale1234]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...
There are some huge reasons why your incessant call to murder all mages would never work:

1) The Chantry would never stand for it.
2) Existing Templar organizations would never stand for it.  Even Meredith rejected the "Tranquil Solution".
3) Good luck recruiting soldiers to go around slaughtering children.
4) Good luck securing funding to support such a terrorist organization.

The only way to work your "solution" would be to form some little band of sociopaths to roam the countryside hunting mages.  You'd likely get zero support or assistance from the population, and as soon as you threatened / tortured enough of them for information they likely wouldn't have, you'd have some Arl's army on your tail.

1)I agree thats why i want remove this guys their fu*** morlas are not only cruel but neither that don't give mages freedom and world safety as we are proven.But still i belive that many would burn mages if they could so it isn't so outplace.They lost control over circles even if i can' destroy them i make sure they will be nothing more than chruch and talk about their god they won't have any political power.

Even if the Chantry as an organization loses all political influence, the beliefs and values of the citizens are not going to change overnight.  They would oppose anything that goes directly against what the Chantry has been teaching them all along.

2)Nah many templars have mindset "kill them all" or just "i will do anything you will say" but pretty much i can see many fanatics (who are obsessed about control) and softer templars (well small group:devil:)  go against but thats why i want create new anti-magical organization independent and more ruthless but i described that on first page of this topic.

Correction: *some* templars *may* have a kill-them-all mindset.  Even Ser Alrik - the ultimate extremist - proposed tranquility, not outright slaughter.  OTOH, Ser Thrask was able to form a coalition of Templars willing to work with Mages to defy Meredith.

Oh, and BTW - Templars need lyrium to work their anti-magic skills, and only dwarves can mine it.  You'd need to make arrangements with the dwarves for an inexhaustable supply of lyrium to fuel your anti-magic faction.  Otherwise - any insurrection would need only to interrupt your lyrium shipments, and all of your anti-magic skills would go "poof".

How to Tranquil a Templar: get them addicted to lyrium, and then deprive them of it.

3)Well i explained that before new anti-magical faction will take childrens and train them to be merciless something like qunari do...

Using the Qunari as an example of "training them to be merciless" is misguided at best.  You understand nothing of the Qun or their culture.

Regardless, you would first have to establish your "new anti-magical faction" as the supreme law of the land before you could expect the citizenry to relinquish all of their children to your special brand of indoctrination.  Good luck unseating and defeating all of the existing nobility and their forces.  Plus, Grey Wardens.  GW generally eschew involvement in political matters, but since they have mages in their ranks, I expect they would be defending their own.  Frankly, due to their association with the dwarves and the deep roads, GW would be in a prime position to disrupt your lyrium supply.

In short, you'd have to assemble some mighty big armies to take the first steps toward your "solution".

And as i said country will have to agree unless they want mages and abomnation spreading destruction no one cares what chantry do with mages already and well most folks would tear apart mages because they are mages i don't see any problem here.This will be new law i won't do that being rogue.

I've outlined several steps you would need to first complete in order to put any part of Thedas under what would essentially be martial law.  I don't happen to agree with your assertion that "most folks would tear apart mages because mages".  Although a lot of people would be terrified, there would always be some that would hide and protect mages, and we've already seen parents who avoid sending their mage children to the Circle.

Ultimately, you would only exacerbate the threat.  With no Circles in operation, there would be more Connors in the world.  More like Decimus, Grace, Evelina, Tarohne, Olivia, and fewer like Bethany, Alain, Wynne, Ines, Morrigan, etc.

You *might* manage to slaughter some mages, but you would not get them all.

Oh, there's one other factor that would prevent you from getting very far, unless she chooses to allow it.  The Flemeth Factor.

I do know, though, that nothing I or anyone else can say will thwart your relentness call for mage slaughter.  Do carry on.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 07 janvier 2014 - 07:33 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Equal as in born equal. Needless to say, or so i thought anyway, you wouldn't treat a king equal to a peasant. Or for that matter in terms our "equal" modern society can fathom, you wouldn't treat a CEO equal to a vagrant.
But a mage is NOT the equal to a mundane. There are clear distinct differences between the two, which means they will need different rules and laws applied.

But if we don't view them as equal, what's to stop the mages from seeing themselves as superior?

If the mages are people, but the mundanes are cattle, is that better?

[EmperorSahlertz]

We try to view people as equal today... Doesn't seem to prevent them from seeing themselves as superior either. Some people will be dicks.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 07 janvier 2014 - 07:44 .

[Aolbain]

Same as before, but charge of the Circles are handed over to the Inquisition.

[Lulupab]

Aolbain wrote...

Same as before, but charge of the Circles are handed over to the Inquisition.

I like your solution and your signature 

The important thing to me regarding the cricle is the fact that it should not be a prison IE if a mother wants to stay in circle and near her child she should be allowed to. All immediate family members should be able to visit/stay whenever they like and their right of family shouldn't be stripped from them in the "eyes of the maker".

[Sylvius the Mad]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We try to view people as equal today... Doesn't seem to prevent them from seeing themselves as superior either. Some people will be dicks.

But at least most people seem to see people are largely equal.

But with mages, how would you suggest we convince mages that mundanes are worthy of their concern?  Without this initial basis of equality, I don't think we can.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Pasquale1234 wrote...
chop

1)Chantry isn't god it may have/had influence but many in chantry don't rly like mages , and peoples don't rly care for mass slaughter as long they aren't victims and yet i had point elves or RoA my point proven.

2)Nope all templars in kirkwall throw themselves at circle because of word mad woman arlik wanted slaves so he could control them many templars are fanatics drunk with heatred

I don't see a problem if behlen is king with lyrium guy is smart enough to see benefit in that...
Besides i plan brainwash new anti-magical faction to be loyal qunari mage who killed himself.

3)I ment brainwashing and thats what qunari are brainwashed tools nothing more best exampl is qunari mage and please if they aren't merciless and will threat you as tool nothing more because they are tools.

4)And well not all i don't see problem with that (grey wardens) so you are way exaggerate that why all nobles will attack me because im killing mages bah not make me laugh they are hated by most i see parent who have mage children may deliver problems still majority hate their children if they turn out to be mage.And i don't think that one noble want ****** off entire world because he don't want give us portal for demons...

5)Yep thats why anti-magical organisation will deal with punishmets will force many to sell mages and even more if someone will help caputre mage reward will be offered (of course if it will be real mage) so not only organisation will awake fear but also greed so we have hate , fear and greed on our side.

Not rly there won't be neither connor or wynne as i said new anti-magical faction will be entirely focused on hunting mages not watching them or serving church.I can gest most mages (more than now circles held) if system will function correctly in future a little indoctrynation that mages are evil or devils (whatever ) will help execute selling mages.

Flemeth what she can do? i doubt that her dragon form would defeat army besides my inq will kill her as quickly it is possible and i doubt that they will be jesus two times...

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We try to view people as equal today... Doesn't seem to prevent them from seeing themselves as superior either. Some people will be dicks.

But at least most people seem to see people are largely equal.

But with mages, how would you suggest we convince mages that mundanes are worthy of their concern?  Without this initial basis of equality, I don't think we can.

To bring up a hypothetical scenario:
Would you consider alien cogniscient species to be beneath your concern or above your understanding, based on their physical and psychological attributes? Would you acknoweldge the differences between the two species?

It doesn't even have to be alien species. It could be the neanderthales who appears to have been our physiological and intellectual superiors (bigger muscles and brains), would you consider them your equals or acknowledge the differences?

Mages should not be consdiered lesser or above mundanes. But the differences between the two should be acknowledged. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging the differences between two persons. 

[Lulupab]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...
chop

1)Chantry isn't god it may have/had influence but many in chantry don't rly like mages , and peoples don't rly care for mass slaughter as long they aren't victims and yet i had point elves or RoA my point proven.

2)Nope all templars in kirkwall throw themselves at circle because of word mad woman arlik wanted slaves so he could control them many templars are fanatics drunk with heatred

I don't see a problem if behlen is king with lyrium guy is smart enough to see benefit in that...
Besides i plan brainwash new anti-magical faction to be loyal qunari mage who killed himself.

3)I ment brainwashing and thats what qunari are brainwashed tools nothing more best exampl is qunari mage and please if they aren't merciless and will threat you as tool nothing more because they are tools.

4)And well not all i don't see problem with that (grey wardens) so you are way exaggerate that why all nobles will attack me because im killing mages bah not make me laugh they are hated by most i see parent who have mage children may deliver problems still majority hate their children if they turn out to be mage.And i don't think that one noble want ****** off entire world because he don't want give us portal for demons...

5)Yep thats why anti-magical organisation will deal with punishmets will force many to sell mages and even more if someone will help caputre mage reward will be offered (of course if it will be real mage) so not only organisation will awake fear but also greed so we have hate , fear and greed on our side.

Not rly there won't be neither connor or wynne as i said new anti-magical faction will be entirely focused on hunting mages not watching them or serving church.I can gest most mages (more than now circles held) if system will function correctly in future a little indoctrynation that mages are evil or devils (whatever ) will help execute selling mages.

Flemeth what she can do? i doubt that her dragon form would defeat army besides my inq will kill her as quickly it is possible and i doubt that they will be jesus two times...

I cannot argue with that logic. Not to mention my inside grammer **** is urging me to end its life.

This will haunt your dreams for rest of your life.

Modifié par Rassler, 07 janvier 2014 - 08:24 .

[Veruin]

Rassler wrote...

I cannot argue with that logic. Not to mention my inside grammer **** is urging me to end its life.

This will hunt your dreams for rest of your life.

Now you know how everyone else feels when people actually try to justify Anders's actions. <_<

[TheKomandorShepard]

Rassler wrote...



I cannot argue with that logic. Not to mention my inside grammer **** is urging me to end its life.

This will haunt your dreams for rest of your life.

Yay you posted picture that only make my point stronger thank you :happy:

[Mike3207]

Total freedom for mages. Let the ones that want to remain in the Circle system do that and run the circles, let the rest go out and lives their lives in the world.

As for the templars, wean them off of lyrium and have them join the individual nations armies.It's not like the Chantry needs a private army.