1537 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

But "freedom" cannot ever be a reason goal.

How about fairness?

Treat everyone equally.

That is not possible.
No person on this planet treats everyone equally... and the differences we have on this planet are superficial.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
"We'll'' teach people/mages/templars to love mages/be good/not fear magic".. K.. HOW?

I made a suggestion (back on page 2) that the Circles hold regular open houses to invite the general public in for tea and cakes, magical entertainment, and healing. They could perhaps also offer other magical services - helping to clear land for farming, road-building, whatever.  Fear is often a by-product of ignorance, and law-abiding mages have been isolated in Circle Towers, away from the general public, for generations.  Let them do some socializing, and mundanes to enjoy some of the benefits of magic, and you've taken some big steps toward curing the chasm between the groups.

Aaand then one mages turns into an abomination, slaughters the entire tea party and you're back to square one.

The assumption that people fear mages purely out of ignorance is false. culture does play a part, but for the most part, people fear mages becuse they are walking demon portals.

Take for example thiese forums - full of educated people with modern sensibilities. They know what mages can do. And so many of them still think they should be kept locked in the Circles. You cannot say ingorance is in the works here.
And mind you, not a single one of us experienced abominations or mind control.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Technically we experienced it through the game, and our standpoints (on both sides) can be largely coloured by the fact we are discussing video game politics, with no actual lives on the line.

[Lulupab]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Technically we experienced it through the game, and our standpoints (on both sides) can be largely coloured by the fact we are discussing video game politics, with no actual lives on the line.

I agree. The main reason I support mages is the fact that I always liked mages and almost always played a mage class in any game that provided the option. So I'm not really "pro-mage" but I rather role play. Since my character is a mage I honestly try to understand the mages side of things aka people who are like me and act upon it in the game.

[Pasquale1234]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

4.And again i m not making nothing up...

Most of your arguments are along the lines of "most people feel this way" or "most people would do this".

You have no proof, only your opinions about how other people feel and what they would do.

That is why I say you are making it up.

and what arl eamon is duty wh*** even isolde knew that thats why she didn't tell him (well with new law for such thing she would be be punished ) his type would kill his son if that was his duty.

In-game fact:  Isolde tried to hide Connor's magic because she did not want to lose him to the Circle, or have him stripped of his rights to inherit title.

That Eamon would allow his own son to be killed is one of the things you are making up.

And in order for it to become "his duty", you would first have to establish "death to all mages" as the law of the land.  And in order to do that, you would have to either convince the existing power structure to enact that law or defeat them.

You can also ask for freedom for mage and what anora/alistair could do nothing that same for wynne... 
Besides you are making this up i played pro-mage few times and nowhere circle is even mentioned forl helping with blight only person who mention that mages helped with blight (morrigan or wynne) is ander oh sorry elthina mention also that if your warden was a mage but he claims that maker stoped blight so... 
If you free circle in da 2 bartender will mention that and tell that ferelden circle gained autonomy and that will be disaster no one cares that mages helped in blight as that no one cares that mages helped with qunari... 

I made some statements of things that occured in-game or were shown on epilogue slides.

Your arguments, once again, are ascribing thoughts, feelings, and actions to others for which you have no proof.  You're excavating it from your arse.

5.Only in fairy tales or when sword is used incorrectly my friend

Flemeth can be slain if it suits her purpose.

You didn't answer my question about how you would affect the brainwashing.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

4.And again i m not making nothing up...

Most of your arguments are along the lines of "most people feel this way" or "most people would do this".

You have no proof, only your opinions about how other people feel and what they would do.

That is why I say you are making it up.

and what arl eamon is duty wh*** even isolde knew that thats why she didn't tell him (well with new law for such thing she would be be punished ) his type would kill his son if that was his duty.

In-game fact:  Isolde tried to hide Connor's magic because she did not want to lose him to the Circle, or have him stripped of his rights to inherit title.

That Eamon would allow his own son to be killed is one of the things you are making up.

And in order for it to become "his duty", you would first have to establish "death to all mages" as the law of the land.  And in order to do that, you would have to either convince the existing power structure to enact that law or defeat them.

You can also ask for freedom for mage and what anora/alistair could do nothing that same for wynne... 
Besides you are making this up i played pro-mage few times and nowhere circle is even mentioned forl helping with blight only person who mention that mages helped with blight (morrigan or wynne) is ander oh sorry elthina mention also that if your warden was a mage but he claims that maker stoped blight so... 
If you free circle in da 2 bartender will mention that and tell that ferelden circle gained autonomy and that will be disaster no one cares that mages helped in blight as that no one cares that mages helped with qunari... 

I made some statements of things that occured in-game or were shown on epilogue slides.

Your arguments, once again, are ascribing thoughts, feelings, and actions to others for which you have no proof.  You're excavating it from your arse.

5.Only in fairy tales or when sword is used incorrectly my friend

Flemeth can be slain if it suits her purpose.

You didn't answer my question about how you would affect the brainwashing.

1. Mages reputation is stated in universe as well like outside so well this is no making things up thats reality at least in dragon age. if peoples opinion about mages isn't enough to prove their opinion there is nothing i can do more to prove that...

2.Isolde didn't say eamon because she knew that he would turn her children because it was his duty about laws did i rly need answer that same question well my 22 other wasn't enough?

3.Well if slaughter because one elf killed someone in docks don't say "we hate you" i don't know what says... 

4.No she isn't god she is dragon and she shouldn't be god so well nope she was slained so she can be killed nor she can kill entire army or civilizations.

5.What do you mean by affect?

[Pasquale1234]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Aaand then one mages turns into an abomination, slaughters the entire tea party and you're back to square one.

That could have happened to the mages at Ostagar, Wynne or Morrigan as they were traveling with the Warden, a mage Warden, Ines or Velanna in the Wending Wood, lots of Dalish, etc. - but it didn't.  I can't help but think that the creation of abominations is more likely under certain conditions - but that's a whole nother topic.

Under ideal circumstances, the likelihood of an abomination may be very, very small.

The assumption that people fear mages purely out of ignorance is false.

Agreed.  Mages pose some very real dangers - but how much does the general public really know about them?  Precious little, I would guess - and I think education and exposure would be a good thing.

[Afro_Explosion]

Mages living among normal citizens would turn out bad for mages:If crops fail burn the mage, stillbirth burn the mage, sickness in the village burn the mage. A real example is Wynne at first manifestation of magic an accident occured and they threw her in the barn and waited for templars to arrive, to them she became another person.

[Sully13]

Pfft this can all be soled verry easaly.




Nice cup of tea and naked tree hugging.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That is not possible.
No person on this planet treats everyone equally... and the differences we have on this planet are superficial.

But we could aspire to it by creating rules that apply equally to everyone.  And that require as little human judgment as possible to administer.

As soon as we design the rules to be unfair, we've effectively prohibited fairness.  We've also eliminated any incentive people have not to rebel against the system.

[Sully13]

1st rule no one dose anything.

2nd rule no one talks anout fight cub.

3rd rule bed at 8:30

4th rule Never rubb another mans rubarb.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That is not possible.
No person on this planet treats everyone equally... and the differences we have on this planet are superficial.

But we could aspire to it by creating rules that apply equally to everyone.  And that require as little human judgment as possible to administer.

As soon as we design the rules to be unfair, we've effectively prohibited fairness.  We've also eliminated any incentive people have not to rebel against the system.

It is a worthy goal to aspire towards, but when mundanes are quite clearly different from mages, in a very dangerous way, there must be special rules apllied to the condition of magic.

We don't let blind people drive cars either, even though they are our equals.

[Sylvius the Mad]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is a worthy goal to aspire towards, but when mundanes are quite clearly different from mages, in a very dangerous way, there must be special rules apllied to the condition of magic.

We don't let blind people drive cars either, even though they are our equals.

We let anyone drive a car if he can pass a skills test.  One of those skills is seeing.  If a blind person had a prosthetic device that granted him the same information other people gain visually, he could pass the test and be allowed to drive.

That he is blind isn't strictly relevant.  That he cannot safely operate a car is.

What standard do mages fail to meet that mundanes do meet?

[Pasquale1234]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

1. Mages reputation is stated in universe as well like outside so well this is no making things up thats reality at least in dragon age. if peoples opinion about mages isn't enough to prove their opinion there is nothing i can do more to prove that...

Confirmation bias.  You're choosing to listen only to that which supports your point-of-view, and ignoring the rest.

Like these gems, from Cullen:
 
"Wilmod has never been fully... convinced of the Order's rules.  Mages cannot be our friends.  They must always be watched."

"It used to be that templars were welcomed wherever they went—for defending people from dark magics. Now the townsfolk are as likely to slam their doors as offer us a bed. The image of the poor, chained apprentice is a powerful one. And one the mages are more than willing to 1 exploit."

The above statements contradict your assertions that templars are seething with hatred toward mages, and that the general public has no sympathy for them.

Clearly, opinions vary.

2.Isolde didn't say eamon because she knew that he would turn her children because it was his duty about laws did i rly need answer that same question well my 22 other wasn't enough?

Now you've changed your argument - again.  You previously said that his type would kill his son if that was his duty.

And I reminded you that you would first have to make it his duty to do so by enacting your kill all mages law.

What he did do is send Connor to the Circle.  Whether he would kill Connor is a matter of opinion, and some of the stuff you are making up.

3.Well if slaughter because one elf killed someone in docks don't say "we hate you" i don't know what says... 

No idea what you're talking about here... unless it's the Arishok going off on Kirkwall... which had nothing to do with mages.

5.What do you mean by affect?

You have stated that your solution would include brainwashing everyone to hate and fear mages.  I've asked how you propose to go about accomplishing that.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 08 janvier 2014 - 12:57 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

1. Mages reputation is stated in universe as well like outside so well this is no making things up thats reality at least in dragon age. if peoples opinion about mages isn't enough to prove their opinion there is nothing i can do more to prove that...

Confirmation bias.  You're choosing to listen only to that which supports your point-of-view, and ignoring the rest.

Like these gems, from Cullen:
 
"Wilmod has never been fully... convinced of the Order's rules.  Mages cannot be our friends.  They must always be watched."

"It used to be that templars were welcomed wherever they went—for
defending people from dark magics. Now the townsfolk are as likely to
slam their doors as offer us a bed. The image of the poor, chained
apprentice is a powerful one. And one the mages are more than willing to
exploit."

The above statements contradict your assertions that templars are seething with hatred toward mages, and that the general public hates and fears mages.

Clearly, opinions vary.

2.Isolde didn't say eamon because she knew that he would turn her children because it was his duty about laws did i rly need answer that same question well my 22 other wasn't enough?

Now you've changed your argument - again.  You previously said that his type would kill his son if that was his duty.

And I reminded you that you would first have to make it his duty to do so by enacting your kill all mages law.

What he did do is send Connor to the Circle.  Whether he would kill Connor is a matter of opinion, and some of the stuff you are making up.

3.Well if slaughter because one elf killed someone in docks don't say "we hate you" i don't know what says... 

No idea what you're talking about here... unless it's the Arishok going off on Kirkwall... which had nothing to do with mages.

5.What do you mean by affect?

You have stated that your solution would include brainwashing everyone to hate and fear mages.  I've asked how you propose to go about accomplishing that.

1.What rest i never saw this rest i saw only peoples who want get rid of meredith only non-mages who supported mages i saw in dragon age 2 are quest giver for pro-mages and anders patients (hero as long they need you) ... cullen said that but yet to be honest i wouldn't help mage but i wouldn't invite to my house too especially meredith...  
and well see reaction weasly on mage and well here catch damn that same reaction

And as i said just look on wynne experience and morrigan had own as well...

2.Eee i didn't change my argument i said it and never denied that he is that type but now i also pointed that reason why isolda didn't say him about connor was this reason that he was duty wh*** ...

And i pointed that 200 times before but you don't listen this who decides abaout mages fade dictates law about mages now it won't be just chantry same for wardens who dictate things when it comes about darkspawn...

3.I was talking about elf who killed person in dock and peoples decided slaughter elves in alienage in ferelden that was before first game begins and you lost point that peoples are perfectly capable do this. 

4.Oh no not everyone (and well in certain sense yes everyone but in two different ways).First i want create new anti-magical order who will be tortured with dogma it will be less subtle way and teach them hate mages. About most it will be less subtle best option is use religion with slogans "magic and mages are evil" "mages are devilspawn" we can also use influence rulers and change education in beneficial way well it shouldn't be hard as hate is part of human nature... 

[Pasquale1234]

It is really a struggle to try to interpret your English.

I've presented quite a few factual, in-game arguments only to be met with repeated examples of confirmation bias accompanied by accusations of not listening to you.  At least, as near as I can tell.  It is difficult to figure out what you are trying to say.

And it seems like what you've learned from the first couple of games is that:
1) It is possible to find and kill all mages, thus no apostates exist.
2) You can make the world safer by clamping down on mages.  When you really squeeze, they will throw themselves upon your murder knife.

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

4.Oh no not everyone (and well in certain sense yes everyone but in two different ways).First i want create new anti-magical order who will be tortured with dogma it will be less subtle way and teach them hate mages. About most it will be less subtle best option is use religion with slogans "magic and mages are evil" "mages are devilspawn" we can also use influence rulers and change education in beneficial way well it shouldn't be hard as hate is part of human nature... 

Good luck with that.

[Rotward]

Everyone bands together to hate the qun, as it should be!

I'd probably have templar training offered, sans the lyrium (alistair didn't need it), to the general public. Templar forces become a special forces branch of governments to deal with mage criminals. Mages treated as human/elven beings.

[Lotion Soronarr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Technically we experienced it through the game, and our standpoints (on both sides) can be largely coloured by the fact we are discussing video game politics, with no actual lives on the line.

True, but it's not the same as the real thing. Staring at the barrel of a gun pointed at you in the game is not the same as having that experience in Real Life, now is it?

Now poeple on these forums comes from various parts of the world and some have had experiences of violence, war, incineration, etc ... but abominations? Nope.

That could have happened to the mages at Ostagar, Wynne or Morrigan as
they were traveling with the Warden, a mage Warden, Ines or Velanna in
the Wending Wood, lots of Dalish, etc. - but it didn't.

The player and party NPC are immune by the virtue of being the player and party NPCS...just like no one in your party contracts the blight, despite bathing in darkspawn blood and NOT being a Warden.

Agreed.  Mages pose some very real dangers - but how much does the
general public really know about them?  Precious little, I would guess -
and I think education and exposure would be a good thing.

Hard to tell.
The average thedosian does seem more educated than an average person in the middle-ages.

But knowing more might even have the opposite effect - when the people learn that mages can learn spells like walking nightmare, corpse bomb and similar, they might become more afraid, not less.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That is not possible.
No person on this planet treats everyone equally... and the differences we have on this planet are superficial.

But we could aspire to it by creating rules that apply equally to everyone.  And that require as little human judgment as possible to administer.

As soon as we design the rules to be unfair, we've effectively prohibited fairness.  We've also eliminated any incentive people have not to rebel against the system.

The world isn't fair.
Trying to force fairness is an excercise in futility, especially since someone, somewhere would have to decide (subjectively) what is fair.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It
is a worthy goal to aspire towards, but when mundanes are quite clearly
different from mages, in a very dangerous way, there must be special
rules apllied to the condition of magic.

We don't let blind people drive cars either, even though they are our equals.

We
let anyone drive a car if he can pass a skills test.  One of those
skills is seeing.  If a blind person had a prosthetic device that
granted him the same information other people gain visually, he could
pass the test and be allowed to drive.

That he is blind isn't strictly relevant.  That he cannot safely operate a car is.

What standard do mages fail to meet that mundanes do meet?

If a blind person could see then he wouldn't be blind, now would he? That makes your entire point moot.

As to mage standards - well for one they aren't as safe as non-mages when it comes to possesion.
They aren't unable to mind control either.

[TheButterflyEffect]

Kill everyone who tries to undermine my attempts to save the world.
Make everyone a  mage so discrimination will be gone.

Live homosexually ever after. The end.


Edited to remove inappropriate content

Modifié par BioWareMod04, 08 janvier 2014 - 10:53 .

[Han Shot First]

If given the option I intend to play a ruthless Inquisitor who has zero tolerance for anyone rebelling against the natural order of the world, as he sees it. Mages who rebel against the Tower system would be dealt with mercilessly (particularly blood mages) as will Templars who overstep their mandate and attempt to oppress or destroy otherwise peaceful mages. He could end up in one town burning mages at the stake and putting Templars to the sword in another.

Basically, unless forced to choose sides, he is going to be a Judge Dredd type with no tolerance for anyone sowing chaos be they Mage or Templar.

I intend to play him similarily if other conflicts are significant sub-plots, like say for the example, the plight of the Elves. Dalish Elves who kill or raid without provocation will be dealt with brutally, as will humans who attack or kill elves without provocation.

His loyalities are going to lie with the realm, not with factions that inhabit it. That *might* make him fanatically loyal to Empress Celene, depending on how she is presented.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 08 janvier 2014 - 07:49 .

[Ravensword]

The Qun.

[Drone696]

Mm-hmm.

[Lotion Soronarr]

To anyone saying "kill all mages law" or "mass tranqulitiy" is an impossible plan...
No, not really.

Humanity has done crappy things in the pass and conducted mass genocide for far LESS valid reasons. You could say TheDas is more moral, but I don't see it. Humans are humans.

And given that templars are already hunting apostates, if there are no Circles for them to babysit, that would free up a LOT of templars to do more hunting. And that is assuming ONLY templars do the mage hunting and no one else.

Of course, you'll never kill ALL mages, but you could get most of them.
The remanants of the remants of a tiny minority case to have any significant impact anymore.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Technically we experienced it through the game, and our standpoints (on both sides) can be largely coloured by the fact we are discussing video game politics, with no actual lives on the line.

True, but it's not the same as the real thing. Staring at the barrel of a gun pointed at you in the game is not the same as having that experience in Real Life, now is it?

Now poeple on these forums comes from various parts of the world and some have had experiences of violence, war, incineration, etc ... but abominations? Nope.

True but that just means that we are ALL discussion from a base of ignorance in the end, since none of us has any experience with Abominations. The only experience we have of Abominations is through the game.
And since the game isn't real, our stances and morals are probably significantly different than what they would be in an actual situation.