1537 réponses à ce sujet

[Huge_Beaver]

MisterJB wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...
"Sufficient income to survive" isn't the same thing as wealth.

But I'm just spitballing, so I'll stop.

Then the pro-mage argument becomes not just "mages should have basic human freedoms" but rather "mages should be free AND rich."
And that is when it becomes very unreasonable, in my opinion at least. I think the system I proposed accounts for the necessity of mages to feel that they are useful to society while also attempting to ensure mages won't just supplant non-mages in all fields of work and thus become the dominant class in said society.

Intresting idea, one problem though. 

You might have adressed it and I just missed it.
Will all mages be forced to be mercenaries? Or will the circles remain so those who have no intrest in fighting can live there instead?

[ames4u]

I have a solution that will satisfy all and reduce tensions in the people!

The Sea of Paddles!

Any offender will be forced to run from one end of the area to the other between two lines of people assembled from the settlement who will then smack the offenders bare ass with a paddle on the way past.

In smaller settlements or in the case of the area lacking enough paddle baring participants, the offender will be forced to run to the nearest designated city to receive their punishment.

[Pasquale1234]

AutumnWitch wrote...

2. Special "day schools" will be established to help educate and train Mage children. All Mage children are required by law to attend but will be free to live with family outside of typical training/schooling.

I think they need to be in boarding school 24x7 until they are skilled enough to pass a harrowing, as they may be too vulnerable otherwise.  If there is some urgent reason why they need to leave, then perhaps an exception could be made, but in that case, the young mage would be accompanied by an experienced harrowed mage / mentor and a couple of templars to keep everyone safe.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 11 janvier 2014 - 02:10 .

[Sykowolf117]

The solution, in my mind, is easy. Mages are taken to the tower until they are 18 or 21 years of age. Once they reach that age, they are released. Phylacteries are still kept and if they dont show up for a "check up" once a year, then the Templar's hunt them down, simple enough.

It pretty much gives both sides what they want.

The mages get to train in a safe environment where they can weed out those who would use blood magic and under the eyes of the Templars, and the mages get to live the rest of their lives pretty much free aside from the yearly check up.

[DPSSOC]

Inprea wrote...
Now you mention punishing. What about compensating? Even if you burned the templar alive and let the mages watch his suffering wouldn't heal the damage done to the wronged mage. What about looking into the other templars performance and finding out why they weren't there to protect the mage? After all that is their job as well.

I mentioned punishing with regards to investigators who interact with either victim or accused without the other investigator present.  The main reason for this is to maintain transparency of the process so that both Mages and Templars are more inclined to trust it.

With regards to actual punishment and compensation that would be left up to each First Enchanter and Knight Commander to decide on a case by case basis.  However I do favour punitive law as you can put a quantitative value on what a person has lost and inflict equal and appropriate punishment on the perpetrator, but there are many crimes where what's lost can never be gotten back and it's more difficult to say, "well what would make up for it?"

Basically it's just easier to organize and execute.

[tybert7]

 kill all templars

/team mage

[flame800900]

Sykowolf117 wrote...

The solution, in my mind, is easy. Mages are taken to the tower until they are 18 or 21 years of age. Once they reach that age, they are released. Phylacteries are still kept and if they dont show up for a "check up" once a year, then the Templar's hunt them down, simple enough.

It pretty much gives both sides what they want.

The mages get to train in a safe environment where they can weed out those who would use blood magic and under the eyes of the Templars, and the mages get to live the rest of their lives pretty much free aside from the yearly check up.

It doesn't give both sides what they want. While in your solution mages are freer than they were before, they are still being subject to the check-ins then presumed bad if they don't show to one which is still suppuration. It's better than what they have, but wouldn't solve the problem for long if at all. People like Anders and other extremist would still be unhappy with this. Mages want the rights of that everyone else has and templars want them to be controlled for safety.

Both Anders and Meredith take to the extremes which creates the Red Templars to begin with. Even before the red lyrium is found Meredith was abusing her power as a templar and Anders only sees templars as being the bad guys with Hawke only ever getting a few moments out of him that he actually says something nice about a templar.

Both sides have very valid points and your solution would be the best of both worlds if the extremist didn't exist. Saddly, neither side would ever accept it. The templars like Meredith or Cullen would see it as giving mages too much freedom. The mages like Anders would see it as still being mistreated by the templars and not getting the rights they want from it. (Note: I am only using the most common templars and mage as examples here).  

[smoke and mirrors]

Are the apostate mages that bad ? Let all mages go free .

[Sykowolf117]

flame800900 wrote...

Sykowolf117 wrote...

The solution, in my mind, is easy. Mages are taken to the tower until they are 18 or 21 years of age. Once they reach that age, they are released. Phylacteries are still kept and if they dont show up for a "check up" once a year, then the Templar's hunt them down, simple enough.

It pretty much gives both sides what they want.

The mages get to train in a safe environment where they can weed out those who would use blood magic and under the eyes of the Templars, and the mages get to live the rest of their lives pretty much free aside from the yearly check up.

It doesn't give both sides what they want. While in your solution mages are freer than they were before, they are still being subject to the check-ins then presumed bad if they don't show to one which is still suppuration. It's better than what they have, but wouldn't solve the problem for long if at all. People like Anders and other extremist would still be unhappy with this. Mages want the rights of that everyone else has and templars want them to be controlled for safety.

Both Anders and Meredith take to the extremes which creates the Red Templars to begin with. Even before the red lyrium is found Meredith was abusing her power as a templar and Anders only sees templars as being the bad guys with Hawke only ever getting a few moments out of him that he actually says something nice about a templar.

Both sides have very valid points and your solution would be the best of both worlds if the extremist didn't exist. Saddly, neither side would ever accept it. The templars like Meredith or Cullen would see it as giving mages too much freedom. The mages like Anders would see it as still being mistreated by the templars and not getting the rights they want from it. (Note: I am only using the most common templars and mage as examples here).  

Yes but you must remember, if this was the solution offered in a world where the circle exists, majority of mages would be VERY happy with it. There would be some extremists yes, but not as many. Blood mages, I think, would be seen a little less and Templars would still be able to do their job. 

The facts are this...Templars do a job thats EXTREMELY important...blood magic can destroy everything
And mages deserve more rights then they currently have...they will never be the same as other people, and the sooner they accept that the better. So while there would still be issues from some people, I still think it would be the best solution for now.

As for whats bad about apostates (Regarding to what smoke said) ...its not the fact that they are apostates, its the fact that they could use blood magic, which is rightfully forbidden.

[Skyrunner_Morgan]

Over time I realized that power paves the way towards abuse and corrupts even those with good intentions in their heart.

Templars were supposed to guard the people from Mages who abused their power; watch over Mages in the Circles and if it was needed they were to combat magic using their skills. They weren't made to be their jailers, to humiliate, poorly treat or beat Mages into submission.
Templars became zealots and abused their ranks and rights given them through the Chantry. Punishing Mage relatives, hunting down, raping or beating Mages as they drew some sort of twisted pleasure from their acts believing they were doing "The Maker's Will."
Templars instilled fear in Mages. No one started to know what was safe to do anymore and feared being sent to Eonar or to be made tranquil for the simple desire to see their parents for example. I even question the Harrowing and I agree with the Spirit of Valor to test the mettle of a Mage in other means then throw them against a demon to be possessed.

Circles were meant as a place to study and learn magic, not to be turned into a prison by Templars or the Chantry. The "Circle" in Kirkwall was an Tevinter slave prison, isn't it ironic that Mages were placed there? To put someone in a place where they are brainwashed to believe its their home when he/she knows its the only way to stay alive as a Mage at young age. To see the inside of the same place for tens of years, people tend to go mad.
Circles are needed as a place of learning or study, to teach someone how to use magic and if he/she wants to become Enchanter, First Enchanter, etc. then let them study and be recognized for their talent.
Apostates simply want to be mages that live out in the world and not be subjected to the abuse of Templars or the Chantry that treats them like a living taint. They aren't a threat to anyone like the zealots believe and spread their lies.

I don't want to paint the Templars and the Chantry as being responsible for everything. There are Mages that are worse than criminals and do horrible things that make monsters seem kinder than them. The willing summon or consort with demons, enthrall people with Blood Magic, practice necromancy or dark rituals to gain more power. Mages that abuse their powers for their own selfish gains. Templars are needed to fight Mages and protect people from their intentions of harm. All of this hate and fear for Mages of any sort originates from the Tevinters and Maleficarum.

The point is that Mages and Templars are and forever will be people like anyone else; weather it be a beggar from the streets or a farmer that works his lands. People that try to live their lives or perform their given duties. You can't punish or kill all of them for the selfish acts of others. A cornered animal fights, so a Mage will use Blood Magic if his/her life is threatened by zealots.
Let a Mage walk the streets and be looked at as a person and be greeted kindly. Let a Templar shake hands with Mages like allies or friends do. Let them stand side by side and face others that are the true threat instead of killing eachother or throwing the blame around.
My Inquisitor will work hard to see this happen. 

Modifié par Skyrunner_Morgan, 11 janvier 2014 - 10:36 .

[dragonflight288]

The point is that Mages and Templars are and forever will be people
like anyone else; weather it be a beggar from the streets or a farmer
that works his lands. People that try to live their lives or perform
their given duties. You can't punish or kill all of them for the selfish
acts of others. A cornered animal fights, so a Mage will use Blood
Magic if his/her life is threatened by zealots.
Let a Mage walk the
streets and be looked at as a person and be greeted kindly. Let a
Templar shake hands with Mages like allies or friends do. Let them stand
side by side and face others that are the true threat instead of
killing eachother or throwing the blame around.
My Inquisitor will work hard to see this happen. 

You might want to be careful. You're being rational.

[TheKomandorShepard]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The point is that Mages and Templars are and forever will be people
like anyone else; weather it be a beggar from the streets or a farmer
that works his lands. People that try to live their lives or perform
their given duties. You can't punish or kill all of them for the selfish
acts of others. A cornered animal fights, so a Mage will use Blood
Magic if his/her life is threatened by zealots.
Let a Mage walk the
streets and be looked at as a person and be greeted kindly. Let a
Templar shake hands with Mages like allies or friends do. Let them stand
side by side and face others that are the true threat instead of
killing eachother or throwing the blame around.
My Inquisitor will work hard to see this happen. 

You might want to be careful. You're being rational.

Yeah because releasing walking bombs on the streets is rational

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 11 janvier 2014 - 12:40 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Inprea wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Punish all mages? Who said that?
Are you reffering to the Annulment? Annulment isn't a punishment for a crime. It's a quarantene.

And how do you propose to "make the person whole again"?

Being locked away for the rest of your life and deprived of many freedoms others value because of what you were born as is indeed a unjust punishment for something you had no control over. Having your child stolen from you because you happen to be a mage is a unjust punishment for just being a mage. Having to participate in a life or death battle because of being born a mage is an unjust punishment.

What part of "it's not a punishment" escapes you?

If there was a police officer standing on my door steps telling me where I can and can't go then heck yes I would hold them responsible for someone breaking into my home. I'd also expect them to repair the damages and pay for whatever was stolen.

Except you assume that police officer is always at your doorstep and never moves for any reason whatsoever.
What if he has to tinkle? Or take a dump?
What a monster he must be if someone breaks into your house while he is on the john!

but wait a minute! "He should just call in a replacement when he leaves" you say. Aha.
And tell me, then you wouldn't accuse him of leaving you no privacy whatsoever?

In other words, a lose-lose situation. If he's always there, he is opressing you and a pervert.If he isn't, he is an incompetent bufoon.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
In that case all you have if the mages word (again).
Let's say your friend tried to rape a girl and she stabbed him (or that's what she sez). Forensic evidence is inconclusive. What do you do?

So you would be prepared to exonerate a templar on his word but you wouldn't exonerate a mage on the mage's word?

Is that what I said? I don't think so.

That or at least not prosecute. If I use the standard you put forward with the templar and needing evidence of rape then if the only evidence is her word then there isn't enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she's lieing. She goes free.

There also isn't any proof that the templar is lying either (about asaulting her). He goes free.

See the problem? Judgments are easy to make when you know who is guilty.

When you don't know and dont' have conclusiveevidence, you can either just trust one side, or tust neither. Either way,chances of "justice" being done are 50/50.

Yet you were willing to let the templar go when the mage accused him of raping her.

I don't believe I said that.
I aksed you what you would do.

If the only thing you leave a mage with is a blow torch can you blame them if they use it?

Mages know various magics- many of which disable/stun/freeze. They never have just one weapon.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I see two problem wiht most post.

1) "It's not that X deserves" "X deserves more". There's one problem wiht that. Life doesn'tgivea frak about what you think you"deserve". And what you think you deserve may be completely differentfromwhatsomeoneelse thinks you deserve. So talking about"deserving" something at all is pointless.

2) Gross generalizations. For both templars and mages. Calling all mages crazy blood mages and all templars fanatical zealots who love torture. That sort of thing.

[ianvillan]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I see two problem wiht most post.

1) "It's not that X deserves" "X deserves more". There's one problem wiht that. Life doesn'tgivea frak about what you think you"deserve". And what you think you deserve may be completely differentfromwhatsomeoneelse thinks you deserve. So talking about"deserving" something at all is pointless.

2) Gross generalizations. For both templars and mages. Calling all mages crazy blood mages and all templars fanatical zealots who love torture. That sort of thing.

I think the main problem is that the extremes we talk about are based on the Kirkwall circle, yet we never got to see the circle or who was in it and what it was like inside.

The writers have said they did go overboard with both groups in DA2 and that the other circles are not the same as Kirkwall but that it was not portrayed to the players accurately .

[Inprea]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
What part of "it's not a punishment" escapes you?

It is either a punishment or a great injustice. That you won't admit to it doesn't change what it is.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Except you assume that police officer is always at your doorstep and never moves for any reason whatsoever.
What if he has to tinkle? Or take a dump?
What a monster he must be if someone breaks into your house while he is on the john!

but wait a minute! "He should just call in a replacement when he leaves" you say. Aha.
And tell me, then you wouldn't accuse him of leaving you no privacy whatsoever?

In other words, a lose-lose situation. If he's always there, he is opressing you and a pervert.If he isn't, he is an incompetent bufoon.

Except the templars are always on the door step to the mage's home or even right outside the door to their room. With the high degree of observation and control the templars have over the mages, even if they're allowed to learn certain forms of self defense, they have an extremely high level of responsibility. If the police officer would leave and give me sufficient freedom more responsibility for protecting myself and my belongings would fall on me.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Is that what I said? I don't think so.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...There's not much you can do, other than investigate and hope to punish the guilty one. I say hope, because it's kinda difficult to prove rape, even today. Let lone in the middle ages.
From the POW of hte wronged party, the system has failed if the guilty isn't punished. But from the POW of the judge he CANNOT condemn someone without evidence, and he DOES NOT know the truth.
No system is perfect and systems will fail occasionally. When it does, it becomes hard to trust that system again, but that still doesn't mean the system doesnt' work.

Your wording of not much you can do and talk of difficulty to prove hardly shows a strong conviction to investigate. Then later you claim that the mage should be punished even if it was proven she was acting in self defense. No call to punish the templar for having sex with a prisoner due to how environment can influence human behavior?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
There also isn't any proof that the templar is lying either (about asaulting her). He goes free.

See the problem? Judgments are easy to make when you know who is guilty.

When you don't know and dont' have conclusiveevidence, you can either just trust one side, or tust neither. Either way,chances of "justice" being done are 50/50.

So you would apply the same standards for convicting a mage that you would apply for convicting a templar? What if another mage came forward and testified she had been assaulted as well? If other mages mentioned they'd seen the templar in question watching the mage unusually closely?

Then is another issue with the circle system of course. Effectively the templars are given permission to stock the mages.

If you're willing to release the templar on the grounds that only she and the templar saw what happened then the same should apply for her claims of self defense.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I don't believe I said that.
I aksed you what you would do.

You talk of how hard it is to prove rape and why the templar would likely go free. Yet you call for the mages to be punished even if self defense was proven.

As for what I would do. First look at where the incident would have taken place. If the templars remains were found in the mages room that would support her story though it is possible she baited him into the room with the promise of sex or something similar with the intent to murder him. I would find out where the templar was before the incident and where he was suppose to be as well as where the mage was during the time leading up to the rape or murder. Naturally it would be nice if I could find a second or third witness. It would also be best to go through their personal belongings and look for any evidence. Something taken from the mage could indicate a sort of trophy.

After that I would begin speaking with those who interacted with both the mage and templar looking for odd behavior. This could also be used to establish the accuracy of their stories. Finally it would be time for character witnesses those who knew the mage and templar as well as to look into any past reports about them.

We are talking about a setting with limited means of investigation and unless blood magic can be used to force the truth from someone so for me this seems the best I could do. Once the information was gathered I would rule for who I believed had the strongest support.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Mages know various magics- many of which disable/stun/freeze. They never have just one weapon.

Are you claiming that most mages have the same variety of spells as the player or party members?  Templars are some of the most magic resistant people you can encounter. There is no guarantee that a stun or disable would hold. As much as I love glyph of paralyze I do remember templars running through it and resisting during broken tower. Given that the mage may only have enough time for one spell do you expect them to gamble their safety in order to spare their attacker or use the spell they believe is most likely to stop the attack? If they mage did hold back under such guidance and the templar resisted I would say you're to blame for the harm done to the mage as well.

If you're talking about cone of cold. Being frozen solid enough that you can't move can be fatal as well and not every mage is going to know the gentler crowd controls. One of the reasons the freezing spells are so liked is they do damage and stop an enemy solid at times. Mages also have a huge selection of spells to pick from. They may have many weapons but all of them could be meant to kill very easily or not suitable to stopping an attack. A hex that makes someone more vulnerable to lightning isn't going to stop a sword. Do you want the flame thrower or a few thousand volts across your heart?

Modifié par Inprea, 11 janvier 2014 - 02:58 .

[MisterJB]

Huge_Beaver wrote...
Intresting idea, one problem though. 

You might have adressed it and I just missed it.
Will all mages be forced to be mercenaries? Or will the circles remain so those who have no intrest in fighting can live there instead?

Thank you.
All of the mages would be forced to live in these isolated villages. However, a village requires more than simply armed forces in order to survive. There need to be teachers, cooks, weavers, etc. Any mage not capable of field work can simply choose those lines of work with the understanding, of course, that their products are meant for their fellow mages alone and that this would eliminate almost any possibility of them being allowed to leave on official business and see the outside world.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Inprea wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
What part of "it's not a punishment" escapes you?

It is either a punishment or a great injustice. That you won't admit to it doesn't change what it is.

It's not a punishment.Do you know what a punishment is?
It's a punitive action because you did something.

That is NOT the reason why circles are annuled. Circles are annuled as a quarantene, to stop the spread of abominations and blood magic.

Injustice? Justice itself is a subjective and nebolous concept. Doesn't the very concept of injustice rely on the ideas of deserving to begin with?
Qurantene is a logical and rational action. Does that make it unjust?

If your president decided to nuke a small town because it was the only way to stop the spread of a deadly, uncurable virus - what would do? Would he be a criminal? Is his action unjust? Is it wrong? Would leaving the town alone and letting the virus spread be "just"?
The world isn't as simple and black-and-white as we'd like it to be.

Except the templars are always on the door step to the mage's home or even right outside the door to their room.

Are they?
Or are you reading too much into a small in-game level?

Remeber that in KIRKWALL (the worst Circle apprently), Meredith searhcing a mages qurater was a BIG deal.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Is that what I said? I don't think so.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...There's not much you can do, other than investigate and hope to punish the guilty one. I say hope, because it's kinda difficult to prove rape, even today. Let lone in the middle ages.
From the POW of hte wronged party, the system has failed if the guilty isn't punished. But from the POW of the judge he CANNOT condemn someone without evidence, and he DOES NOT know the truth.
No system is perfect and systems will fail occasionally. When it does, it becomes hard to trust that system again, but that still doesn't mean the system doesnt' work.

Your wording of not much you can do and talk of difficulty to prove hardly shows a strong conviction to investigate. Then later you claim that the mage should be punished even if it was proven she was acting in self defense. No call to punish the templar for having sex with a prisoner due to how environment can influence human behavior?

So in other words, I didn't say that, you just like reading into things and fighting strawmen?

I said nothing but the truth. In case of rape, the damage was already done. There really is not much you can do other than investigate. And given the medieval nature of TheDas and lack of CSI and forensics, most cases will either boil down to witnesses or you'll have no evidence whatsoever.

A mage SHOULD be punished? Please, where did I say that?
I told you how similar cases are usually handeled - that many times even killing in self-defense is not considered justified. You are also starting from an assumption that the mage is innocent. I've yet to see you even try to entertain an opposite scenario.

If you're willing to release the templar on the grounds that only she and the templar saw what happened then the same should apply for her claims of self defense.

Possible, but not necessarily. Different judges would handle this case differently.
Would you even have proof there was rape? You have a corpse and dead men cannot defnd themselves.

IF you want to give the mage here the benefit of the doubt, then you should also give the templar the same if a mage just comes and acuses one of rape. At least that case ends without someone in a body bag.

You talk of how hard it is to prove rape and why the templar would likely go free. Yet you call for the mages to be punished even if self defense was proven.

Reading comprehension. You lack it.

I told you that "self-defense" can but doesn't have to be sufficient defense. You could just as easily accuse a templar who killed a mage claiming it was "self-defense".

I aks you how to handle that when you have to evidence.
Two templars go to hunt down an apostate and bing him to the Circle. He ends u dead. Both claim he resisted and attacked them and they killed him in combat.

Guilty or not? If the mage goes free in your case, then so do the templars in this case.

Once the information was gathered I would rule for who I believed had the strongest support.

And your chances of satisfying justice are still crappy.
"Behaving oddly" is hardly evidence. And there's plenty among bothmages and tempalrs who would lie. Immagine asking Anders about that templar over there? You sure he wouldn't inflate every flaw or make up stuff? Or that some templars might stick together and provide testimony to back up their brother?

Everything about the situation stinks.

[Lord Raijin]

@Lotion What the Chantry and the Templar's was doing to the mages was a great injustice and I'm glad to see that the Divine of the White Chantry finally realizes what her Chantry has been doing to the mages for centuries. She acknowledges her Chantries errors and finally did something about it by aiding them in their escape, and destroying their phylacteries in the process.

Do you even know the protocol that takes place once the Right of Annulment has been implemented on a Circle? It is not to quarantine the mages but to purge them all to restore order. That means that once R.o.A has been declare gives the Templar's full authorization to exterminate every single mage including children and the elderly.

A true quarantine process would be to take a mage and send him/her to the circle where they would undergo rigorous amount of tests to not only test their mental status but also their knowledge of the arcane arts of magic, and to see if they can resist demonic possession. Once they've passed these tests they should come out of quarantine and be allowed to be part of the society, not to be locked away and stunned by society.

[eye basher]

Cut them all down like grass both the mages and the templar problem solved.

[Rotward]

eye basher wrote...

Cut them all down like grass both the mages and the templar problem solved.

Until more mages are born, and more templars are trained...

Modifié par Rotward, 12 janvier 2014 - 01:17 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Rotward wrote...

eye basher wrote...

Cut them all down like grass both the mages and the templar problem solved.

Until more mages are born, and more templars are trained...

i guess they will be immortal...
technically mages will born (but sill you can kill them then when they are young) but templars can be exterminated permanently as in thedas it is group with ideology so well you can destroy them then we have new organisations with anti-magical skills but they won't be templars just anti-mages and yet still you can erase knowledge about anti-magic in tev they succeeded.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 12 janvier 2014 - 01:38 .

[Lulupab]

I'd like to share some screenshots that shows how much of a prison the circle is and a reminder that people are held this way because of the way they are born, not something they've done, unlike normal prisons:









Couldn't agree more Anders.






Stop pretending the circle is a solution, its quite cruel and unhuman but feel free, its your game.

Modifié par Rassler, 12 janvier 2014 - 01:43 .

[AresKeith]

Rassler wrote...

Stop pretending the circle is a solution, its quite cruel and unhuman but feel free, its your game.

And stop pretending the Kirkwall Circle is the norm for every circle