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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...



rly?
mages didn't even managed cast spell before half of them were killed just look on first mage victim before she menaged cast spell she was dead that shows that mages are not only weak in terms of power but slow...

You cannot infer anything in terms of their power from the fact that they didn't cast, for precisely the reason that they didn't cast.

for trained warriors and rogues that shouldn't be a problem as we seen templars didn't even had to use their anti-magical skills first half died because they were faster other because of tatctic...

The fact that the Templars has to use tactical skills against the mages is evidence against your point. And then there's the mage who actually killed a Templar with a gesture. This video doesn't work at all for mages being weak. Tactically incompetent yes, weak no.

LoL first every trained warrior uses tatctic even if they will go against peasants because well better be effective than not...

Except that you were using the fact that the Templars used tactics as an example of the mage's weakness, or so it looked. That simply doesn't work.

Second well if stronger enemy charges at you then you will use strongest cards that you have not splash in their face

You missed the example of a mage actually holding a Templar of with magic, and another example of a mage succesfully killing a Templar. That's not exactly splashing in their faces.

pretty much if they had stronger spells they would use it only retarded person wouldn't so you want tell me they will give up to demons when they face death but won't use stronger spells?

That's a fair point, actually. So, those mages might actually have been weak. (Not counting the effective one's you're working to ignore.) On the other hand, if they'd passed the Harrowing they can't have been that weak, (not to mention that means they're stronger against the opponents they're supposed to be afraid of) and if they haven't then invoking their weakness isn't fair play since they're just apprentices. You're not going to get a good example of what any profession can do from it's neophytes.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 12 janvier 2014 - 02:34 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

MasterScribe wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

Children, the ultimate emotional appeal.

I'm still on the fence. I think complete mage freedom (especially for human mages) is a bad idea.

Besides, the Circle system kept the common folk relatively at ease. That alone probably mitigated a lot of civil disorder (simple-minded people fear what they don't understand and what they feel threatened by).

I would argue that in some ways, the Circles also made many of the common folk somewhat ignorant of magic, it's limitations, and consequences. 

Well, we don't really know if common folk in Thedas ever understood how magic works, as well as its limits and consequences. Mages in Tevinter were/are the ruling class and didn't mix with the common folks. The into societies where the common folks might known more would be the elven/dalish and Rivaini (possibly). 

The Dalish illustrate that magic can be good.

I just think humans, as the dominant race in Thedas, are much more dangerous with magical abilities.

Intrinsically, they are emboldened to rebel because of their race's position in society.

They need to be contained, though I don't agree with all of the templars' practices.

Yeah zathrian , velanna , merril and marethari

bad things did
-Creating werewolves that started hunt them
-Killing many humans in rage
-Scumbing to demons
-resposible for kiling entire dalish clan (potentially)

good things
well emm im sure they are some just very well hidden... yeah

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 12 janvier 2014 - 02:40 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...




Yeah zathrian , velanna , merril and marethari

bad things did
-Creating werewolves that started hunt them
-Killing many humans in rage
-Scumbing to demons
-resposible for kiling entire dalish clan (potentially)

good things
well emm im sure they are some just very well hidden... yeah

Merril didn't actually succumb. There was some danger, but she was never actually possessed. The other three you're spot on with, except that you forgot to mention that Velanna wasn't even going after the right race. You can make Velanna work to do good afterwards. (Whether or not that's enough to make up for it is a bit YMMV.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 12 janvier 2014 - 02:45 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...



rly?
mages didn't even managed cast spell before half of them were killed just look on first mage victim before she menaged cast spell she was dead that shows that mages are not only weak in terms of power but slow...

You cannot infer anything in terms of their power from the fact that they didn't cast, for precisely the reason that they didn't cast.

for trained warriors and rogues that shouldn't be a problem as we seen templars didn't even had to use their anti-magical skills first half died because they were faster other because of tatctic...

The fact that the Templars has to use tactical skills against the mages is evidence against your point. And then there's the mage who actually killed a Templar with a gesture. This video doesn't work at all for mages being weak. Tactically incompetent yes, weak no.

LoL first every trained warrior uses tatctic even if they will go against peasants because well better be effective than not...

Except that you were using the fact that the Templars used tactics as an example of the mage's weakness, or so it looked. That simply doesn't work.

Second well if stronger enemy charges at you then you will use strongest cards that you have not splash in their face

You missed the example of a mage actually holding a Templar of with magic, and another example of a mage succesfully killing a Templar. That's not exactly splashing in their faces.

pretty much if they had stronger spells they would use it only retarded person wouldn't so you want tell me they will give up to demons when they face death but won't use stronger spells?

That's a fair point, actually. So, those mages might actually have been weak. (Not counting the effective one's you're working to ignore.) On the other hand, if they'd passed the Harrowing they can't have been that weak, (not to mention that means they're stronger against the opponents they're supposed to be afraid of) and if they haven't then invoking their weakness isn't fair play since they're just apprentices. You're not going to get a good example of what any profession can do from it's neophytes.

1.Eee because that what tactic is exploiting weaknesses of your enemy? (and pretty much as i said this is used toward everyone to be more effective)

2.Which mage you mean that who used flamethrower? (weak version) yeah he wasn't holding he just slower him down that spell don't last for long and templar wasn't very affected by that with shield... 

3.How do you know they didn't passed harrowing they looked as averge mage for me and as i said templars didn't had even use anti-magical skills just pure strenght and speed with tactic (pretty much trained soldiers can do that).

[Cainhurst Crow]

Next time the Dalish stray too close to human territory, they should be killed indiscriminately as well then, and I expect you, masterscribe, would have no objections to that?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 12 janvier 2014 - 03:42 .

[The Elder King]

MasterScribe wrote...

The Dalish illustrate that magic can be good.

I just think humans, as the dominant race in Thedas, are much more dangerous with magical abilities.

Intrinsically, they are emboldened to rebel because of their race's position in society.

They need to be contained, though I don't agree with all of the templars' practices.

I was mostly talking about the fact that common folks in human society don't really know how magic works, as well as its limits. Dalish non-mages probably know more about magic.
About the discussion with Thekomandorshepard, which humans that invaded dalish territory are you talking about? Zathrian's or Velanna's?

[Elhanan]

Allow for freedom of all peoples while knowing that an Abomination guilty of murder - be it former Mage or Templar - be subject to the penalty of death.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

1.Eee because that what tactic is exploiting weaknesses of your enemy? (and pretty much as i said this is used toward everyone to be more effective)

Said weakness is getting stabbed in the back while not wearing armor. You have an unfortunate habit of thinking that they can't be more powerful than ordinary humans and still have that weakness, and an even more unfortunate habit of not listening when I explain your error.

2.Which mage you mean that who used flamethrower? (weak version) yeah he wasn't holding he just slower him down that spell don't last for long and templar wasn't very affected by that with shield...

The mage seemed to be sustaining the spell, regardless of whether or not you can do that in gameplay. And if the convection from a blast like that wasn't already cooking that Templar alive in his armor that can only mean that either he was using anti-magic or that the armor was enchanted.

3.How do you know they didn't passed harrowing they looked as averge mage for me and as i said templars didn't had even use anti-magical skills just pure strenght and speed with tactic (pretty much trained soldiers can do that).

What you said is that their performance against the Templars is indicative of their performance against demons. I said that either they're much better against demons, and thus their performance against demons isn't much of an issue, or they haven't passed the Harrowing and therefore it's not fair to use them as examples. The only third option I can think of is Varric being an unreliable narrator again, which is entirely possible but doesn't support your point. If you have a fourth option I'll hear you out, but please make it good.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 12 janvier 2014 - 03:07 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

What is my solution? Simple, make a deal with a demon, make a tear in the veil to let loose more demons. Blame the whole thing on the Mages and Templars. Watch them all get massacred and then rule the world!  Muahahahahaha *sits with an evil grin, with chin resting on steepled fingers*

[TheKomandorShepard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...



Merril didn't actually succumb. There was some danger, but she was never actually possessed. The other three you're spot on with, except that you forgot to mention that Velanna wasn't even going after the right race. You can make Velanna work to do good afterwards. (Whether or not that's enough to make up for it is a bit YMMV.)

I can bet on my hawke all money that she would end as abomnation i mean she was already toy for that demon and well she would end as this in the fade... and well still we have marethari... Yes so we should ignore that she killed many peoples because she was angry racist what smart archtect minion used?

MasterScribe wrote...

All
those humans deserved what they got for encroaching on Dalish
territory. You don't see Dalish invading human territory all the
freakin' time. They just want to be left alone.

Not every Dalish mage succumbs to demons. And the clan slaughter is preventable.

 

Well i guess dalish have act of land ownership that it is their land? You know what screw that and skip formalities because im not very lawful person pretty much as i renember she killed this peoples because she was nutsie racist mage who killed peoples on trade routes...

if you meant werewolves most these peoples were just unlucky humans or elves that before were dead. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...



Merril didn't actually succumb. There was some danger, but she was never actually possessed. The other three you're spot on with, except that you forgot to mention that Velanna wasn't even going after the right race. You can make Velanna work to do good afterwards. (Whether or not that's enough to make up for it is a bit YMMV.)

I can bet on my hawke all money that she would end as abomnation i mean she was already toy for that demon and well she would end as this in the fade...

She was working to avoid this, and working to mitigate the damage should she turn. But yes, there was a danger.

and well still we have marethari...

Yes we do.

Yes so we should ignore that she killed many peoples because she was angry racist what smart archtect minion used?

That's a bit subjective, though I'll note it's an extremely tough sell.

MasterScribe wrote...

All
those humans deserved what they got for encroaching on Dalish
territory. You don't see Dalish invading human territory all the
freakin' time. They just want to be left alone.

Not every Dalish mage succumbs to demons. And the clan slaughter is preventable.

 

Well i guess dalish have act of land ownership that it is their land? You know what screw that and skip formalities because im not very lawful person pretty much as i renember she killed this peoples because she was nutsie racist mage who killed peoples on trade routes...

I think they wound up camping near a trade route, moved because they knew this was going to be a problem, and Velanna led the group that refused to show any degree of sense and just stayed there.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

Magdalena11 wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

@Rassler you're applying the terrible state of one circle to all. The only thing that happens in all circles is children being taken away after birth. That isnt terrible, the children are raised and cared for by the chantry most likely.

Children were abandoned at the chantry as well, orphans and such.  Being taken away from a parent who could provide a family to be placed in an orphanage, no matter how good-intentioned, isn't right.

It isn't fair, I do agree. But where would be safer?

I would argue that all children, especially infants and toddlers, are in desperate need of parents. There is a safety net in the emotional connection. A person's greatest strength may derive from a strong family.

And there is nothing more traumatizing to a mother than having their child taken from them immediately upon birth, knowing they'll never see their baby again. And a traumatized mother who happens to be a mage is something most people don't want.

Instead, I would argue that mages who have children be separated from their peers. They'll still attend classes and practice magic as normal, but be allowed to keep their children and raise them, at least until their teenage years where the child can be sent to another Circle or something, and not be dependent upon their parents. And if the child isn't a mage, the templars can look into setting the child up into some form of apprenticeship as a blacksmith, farmer, or whatever, unless the child truly wishes to join the Chantry.

I suppose my biggest problem with the current system is that it doesn't take into account the emotional well-being of mage parents, and the children are taken as wards of the Chantry without any parental consent, where they'll likely be raised to be a brother, a templar or put into another circle if they're a mage, and based on Alistair's experiences when being made a templar was a decision made for him, these children won't have the option of what they want to do with their lives.

Granted, being a ward of the chantry is still better than being an orphan on the streets, and I don't think there are any easy solutions overall.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

1.Eee because that what tactic is exploiting weaknesses of your enemy? (and pretty much as i said this is used toward everyone to be more effective)

Said weakness is getting stabbed in the back while not wearing armor. You have an unfortunate habit of thinking that they can't be more powerful than ordinary humans and still have that weakness, and an even more unfortunate habit of not listening when I explain your error.

2.Which mage you mean that who used flamethrower? (weak version) yeah he wasn't holding he just slower him down that spell don't last for long and templar wasn't very affected by that with shield...

The mage seemed to be sustaining the spell, regardless of whether or not you can do that in gameplay. And if the convection from a blast like that wasn't already cooking that Templar alive in his armor that can only mean that either he was using anti-magic or that the armor was enchanted.

3.How do you know they didn't passed harrowing they looked as averge mage for me and as i said templars didn't had even use anti-magical skills just pure strenght and speed with tactic (pretty much trained soldiers can do that).

What you said is that their performance against the Templars is indicative of their performance against demons. I said that either they're much better against demons, and thus their performance against demons isn't much of an issue, or they haven't passed the Harrowing and therefore it's not fair to use them as examples. The only third option I can think of is Varric being an unreliable narrator again, which is entirely possible but doesn't support your point. If you have a fourth option I'll hear you out, but please make it good.

1.Strong mages can be useful but well they aren't very common among peoples that as well are minority... as i said before they could cast any spell they were dead because templars were stronger and faster and mages spells are slow... Averge mage isn't very useful sure can be stronger than pesant but not useful because pesan't can be possesed by demon...

2.Pretty much not rly mages have limits and in da that are hefty limits.And well being superman (which in mages case even don't qualifie) in the world where very amor and sword are made of kryptonite and in world where you can enchant items against already weak beings is well effective as here... 

As far i renember warden had fight only with rage demon (well he might be just lucky because latter he meet pride demon and he spared him) so well luck based test even more powerful mages tend end as abomnations...

[TheKomandorShepard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...



Merril didn't actually succumb. There was some danger, but she was never actually possessed. The other three you're spot on with, except that you forgot to mention that Velanna wasn't even going after the right race. You can make Velanna work to do good afterwards. (Whether or not that's enough to make up for it is a bit YMMV.)

I can bet on my hawke all money that she would end as abomnation i mean she was already toy for that demon and well she would end as this in the fade...

She was working to avoid this, and working to mitigate the damage should she turn. But yes, there was a danger.

and well still we have marethari...

Yes we do.

Yes so we should ignore that she killed many peoples because she was angry racist what smart archtect minion used?

That's a bit subjective, though I'll note it's an extremely tough sell.

MasterScribe wrote...

All
those humans deserved what they got for encroaching on Dalish
territory. You don't see Dalish invading human territory all the
freakin' time. They just want to be left alone.

Not every Dalish mage succumbs to demons. And the clan slaughter is preventable.

 

Well i guess dalish have act of land ownership that it is their land? You know what screw that and skip formalities because im not very lawful person pretty much as i renember she killed this peoples because she was nutsie racist mage who killed peoples on trade routes...

I think they wound up camping near a trade route, moved because they knew this was going to be a problem, and Velanna led the group that refused to show any degree of sense and just stayed there.

1.Yeah because i trust word of idiot (not about you only about merril )

2.Yep and she ended as abomnation

3.It wasn't subjective i pointed only what was pointed in game in arch notes that his minion used her racism for own gain...

4.Doesn't matter she is still mage and former dalish she was their creation and caused damage...

MasterScribe wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Well
i guess dalish have act of land ownership that it is their land? You
know what screw that and skip formalities because im not very lawful
person pretty much as i renember she killed this peoples because she was
nutsie racist mage who killed peoples on trade routes...

if you meant werewolves most these peoples were just unlucky humans or elves that before were dead. 

Velanna was exiled from her clan. She wasn't acting on their behalf. That was her effort, not the Dalish's.

Sure, Zathrian was a bastard (who was arrogantly holding a grudge). But Lanaya is nothing like him.

Doesn't matter as i pointed above she was their creation no keeper no velanna that same for every circle mage who caused damage thats why im for "kill them all" solution.

Lanaya is naive and idealistic it will quickly be shattered by severe and cynical setting like thedas.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

1.Strong mages can be useful but well they aren't very common among peoples that as well are minority... as i said before they could cast any spell they were dead because templars were stronger and faster and mages spells are slow... Averge mage isn't very useful sure can be stronger than pesant but not useful because pesan't can be possesed by demon...

Speed and power aren't the same thing. Though you're once again ignoring the two who sucessfully cast, one of whom successfully killed his target and the other of whom had a target on the ground before one of the other templars had to stab said mage in the back.

2.Pretty much not rly mages have limits and in da that are hefty limits.And well being superman (which in mages case even don't qualifie) in the world where very amor and sword are made of kryptonite and in world where you can enchant items against already weak beings is well effective as here... 

You're not trying to use gameplay to argue that the mage couldn't have been sustaining that blast, are you? You've had it explained to you why that doesn't work. Repeatedly. Gameplay and story segregation.

And stop attempting to use the fact that mages can be stabbed to death as evidence they aren't more powerful than average. It doesn't work for that, it just proves they aren't invincible. You can be powerful without being capable of tanking a blade to the back.

As far i renember warden had fight only with rage demon (well he might be just lucky because latter he meet pride demon and he spared him) so well luck based test even more powerful mages tend end as abomnations...

The really powerful ones? Not really. There's Uldred and Orsino, but I can't think of anyone else who was really powerful and turned. (Connor doesn't count due to his power coming from turning.) Really powerful mages can turn, of course, but they usually don't.

Anyway, the point is that the Harrowing demonstrates that the mage has at least some limited competence dealing with demons, (including a Sloth demon, so it's not just Rage Demons and the Pride Demon) which is relevant because you previously noted (relatively reasonably) that the mages who can't handle templars probably can't handle demons. If they pass it, and then show complete incompetence against a templar, that doesn't change that they've shown at least that limited competence against a demon. And since the very basic unit of mage competence is that this has happened, if they don't pass it and show incompetence against a templar then you can't use it as evidence that mages are weak, because they're already known to be below par. I don't think you can get around this one short of simply ignoring it. (Though you have some history of this.)

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

1.Yeah because i trust word of idiot (not about you only about merril [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie])

We specifically see her take one last precaution in case she turns: namely, she asks the seriously dangerous Hawke to come along to kill her if necessary.

2.Yep and she ended as abomnation

Yes she did.

3.It wasn't subjective i pointed only what was pointed in game in arch notes that his minion used her racism for own gain...

No, I meant the bit as to whether or not what you make her do later makes up for it. You can argue that either way.

4.Doesn't matter she is still mage and former dalish she was their creation and caused damage...

I'm actually not arguing with you here. I agree that she's a pretty good example of what a less bright, more aggresive mage can do. (Though I'd also note that she's simultaneously a good example of mages actually being pretty terrifying, even without blood magic or being possessed.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 12 janvier 2014 - 03:43 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MasterScribe wrote...

You might as well destroy the entire planet, which is a ridiculous notion.

If he manages this (and he won't) then he will destroy the planet. I don't give much for Thedas's chance against two more Blights with literally no mages, and that's assuming that only Old Gods can start one.

[Pasquale1234]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

That's a fair point, actually. So, those mages might actually have been weak. (Not counting the effective one's you're working to ignore.) On the other hand, if they'd passed the Harrowing they can't have been that weak, (not to mention that means they're stronger against the opponents they're supposed to be afraid of) and if they haven't then invoking their weakness isn't fair play since they're just apprentices. You're not going to get a good example of what any profession can do from it's neophytes.

You realize you're arguing about a cut scene - not an actual battle - that shows a group of trained warriors rushing in to slaughter a group composed essentially of students.  Students who have been taught to obey, and in many cases have been abused and humiliated by those very same trained warriors who are now coming to kill them.  Rather than to defend themselves, their first reaction is to bow down and take the same abuse they've likely been getting for years.

As a cut scene, it's pretty effective, but by no means does it show the relative strength of magic versus anti-magic between combatants who are ready, willing, and able to fight.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

That's a fair point, actually. So, those mages might actually have been weak. (Not counting the effective one's you're working to ignore.) On the other hand, if they'd passed the Harrowing they can't have been that weak, (not to mention that means they're stronger against the opponents they're supposed to be afraid of) and if they haven't then invoking their weakness isn't fair play since they're just apprentices. You're not going to get a good example of what any profession can do from it's neophytes.

You realize you're arguing about a cut scene - not an actual battle - that shows a group of trained warriors rushing in to slaughter a group composed essentially of students.  Students who have been taught to obey, and in many cases have been abused and humiliated by those very same trained warriors who are now coming to kill them.  Rather than to defend themselves, their first reaction is to bow down and take the same abuse they've likely been getting for years.

As a cut scene, it's pretty effective, but by no means does it show the relative strength of magic versus anti-magic between combatants who are ready, willing, and able to fight.

Also that. And also there's the problem that we can't know it happened anything like that, since Varric is by this point pretty openly an unreliable narrator.

[Cainhurst Crow]

MasterScribe wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Next time the Danish stray too close to human territory, they should be killed indiscriminately as well then, and I expect you, masterscribe, would have no objections to that?

 Uh yes, I object to killing Danish people. And all real humans for that matter.

I really hate autocorrect.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

chop

1.wow two successful spells wow very impresive maybe when they will fight with blind pesants they will win:devil:.
And as i said mages very hefty lost with physical human attributes... weak

2.Nope im not using gameplay but mages are just weak when compare to other fantasy worlds where they are respected and feared because they are powerful not because they are demon magnets... They were killed like pesants so well i can compare them and well this is power not when oponet who have human attributes crushes you like nothing thats not power that is just pathetic...

3.Uldred , anders , orsino , some of magisters , marethari , wynne ,rhys (well if lamber was right) , baroness.

and i said it is luck based test you might end with pride demon or just rage demon but that doesn't mean that you won't end as victim of stronger demon like pride or just fall to your flaw like for example you might not fall to pride demon but you may fall to desire demon or sloth...  

4.Yep pretty much shows that she is idiot only plot armor protected her from becoming abomnation for all this years.

5.well point proved

6.if you say so...

7.point proven.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 12 janvier 2014 - 03:50 .