1537 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elder King]

In what ways Rhys could've turned out much better if left in Wynne's care? 
Mind you, I'm not question if it's right or wrong to take children from their mage parents. 

Modifié par hhh89, 12 janvier 2014 - 06:04 .

[Rotward]

MisterJB wrote...

Rotward wrote...
What, when the parents are unfit? That requires the parents to have had an opportunity to, you know, be parents. If they've never met the kid, you've got no evidence that they're unfit to be parents.

There are a number of debilitating medical conditions that can automatically disqualify someone from being a parent even before the child is born; some of them have accompanied the parent since birth.
Magic could be considered one such medical condition.

Regardless, the Circle simply isn't the right environment for toddlers; plus there are other problems to take into account; mage parents doing drastic things to spare their child the Harrowing, non-mages born to mages, Circle overpopulation, etc.

The circle has todlers already. Those conditions aren't justified in the real world or in game. 

[Pasquale1234]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

It's stuff like this that has me half-convinced you're a troll. How many times do I have to point out that if the people in charge of the presses wanted to alter the mages' role in the fighting, it would be to minimize it?

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Stop feeding the Troll known as TheKomandorShepard.

But it's so much fun to see him spin and dance.

He's either a troll, clueless about what constitutes a logical discussion, or incapable of understanding such.  I've yet to see him concede a single point, despite being presented with in-game and / or in-lore evidence that refutes his assertions.  Many of his arguments are entirely his invention and opinion.

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Cutscenes aren't part of gameplay they are part of story so well and you showed me gameplay unless when cutscenes was pulled did i have mention that hawke is protagonist what make him superbadass a way beyond normal mages?

I see.  So your apparent rule is that cutscenes are permissible evidence, but gameplay is not.  Pretty convenient, and no real surprise that you ignore any cutscene that shows mage power.

[TheKomandorShepard]

crap error

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 12 janvier 2014 - 06:10 .

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...
Rhys could have turned out much better if left in care of Wynne

Your evidence of this being...

I'd rather not force someone to live in isolation from normal society if there isn't a need for it; as soon as the magic appears, there is a need for it; and having an attachment to a child could have affected Wynne in a myriad of different, negative ways. For instance, if Rhys died during the Harrowing, this could have easily lead to Wynne becoming an Abomination or rebellious.
 

and according to Tevinters the child of two mages has significant chance of being a mage especially if parents of both the father and mother were mages as well. I.E if for ten generation someone's ancestors were all mages the chance of their child being a mage is like 95%. 

Where did you pull that number from?
Also, significant chance is not a guarantee. Let's say some mage keeps the toddler around and suddenly, he is 18 and no magic. Not only has he been isolated for no real motive but he has also been unable to learn any trade beyond becoming a Templar.
Oooops. Guess he would have been better off among the other normal people.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

It's stuff like this that has me half-convinced you're a troll. How many times do I have to point out that if the people in charge of the presses wanted to alter the mages' role in the fighting, it would be to minimize it?

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Stop feeding the Troll known as TheKomandorShepard.

But it's so much fun to see him spin and dance.

He's either a troll, clueless about what constitutes a logical discussion, or incapable of understanding such.  I've yet to see him concede a single point, despite being presented with in-game and / or in-lore evidence that refutes his assertions.  Many of his arguments are entirely his invention and opinion.

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Cutscenes aren't part of gameplay they are part of story so well and you showed me gameplay unless when cutscenes was pulled did i have mention that hawke is protagonist what make him superbadass a way beyond normal mages?

I see.  So your apparent rule is that cutscenes are permissible evidence, but gameplay is not.  Pretty convenient, and no real surprise that you ignore any cutscene that shows mage power.

Well if story isn't any evidence what is?Gameplay serves mostly entertainment for example you could cut leliana head in gameplay it doesn't mean that you did that in story , as well in gameplay our character can take 5 hits with 2h-sword like nothing and still don't give crapp.In story he would be already dead here you have example story leliana is down with 1 stab gameplay leliana can survive 10 such stabs and fireball in face. And what cutscenes i ignore you mean by companion or our protagonist (a guy who can chop tower with abomnations alone).
Ps im not type who like a gameplay what ingore everything but gameplay is lax and i know it

despite being presented with in-game

Point them please if you are so smart;)

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 12 janvier 2014 - 06:19 .

[MisterJB]

Rotward wrote...
The circle has todlers already.
 

According to the lore, magic appears in puberty.

Those conditions aren't justified in the real world or in game. 

That's not an argument, it's a statement.
Do you think people with chronic pain that keeps them in bed most days, stops them from providing for themselves and who survive on a stipend from the state are qualified to take care of and provide for a newborn?

[MisterJB]

Honestly, according to the pro-mages, the Circles are cesspools of corruption where a mage can be beaten to death, gangraped or made Tranquil at any given moment, sleeps in chains and drinks his own urine,
And now they want kids in that environment.

[Rotward]

MisterJB wrote...

According to the lore, magic appears in puberty.

According to the mage start, there are todlers in the tower. 

Do you think people with chronic pain that keeps them in bed most days, stops them from providing for themselves and who survive on a stipend from the state are qualified to take care of and provide for a newborn?

As much so as an alchoholic, drug adict, convicted felon, teenager, traveling professional (I'll be back in six months, dear), anyone else living off the state (retired, poor, cripled), or schizophrenic parent is. The thing that matters is whether they have any support themselves, like a spouse, and commitment to the child. Especially when the parent lives in a community home, like the tower.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

For the child argument, I definitely think the mother should keep the child during it's infancy to build that relationship and connection, but after that it shouldn't live there forever but rather let the child visit their parents, like how prisons let mothers be with their kids on Mother's Day and whatnot. Granted I think the Circle system needs drastic changes but that is at least a compromise I think the Templars would be accepting of until that time where the system is reconstructed to be more beneficial for both sides.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 12 janvier 2014 - 06:32 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Rotward wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

According to the lore, magic appears in puberty.

According to the mage start, there are todlers in the tower. 

Also acording to Bethany's letter if she was sent to the Circle. 
" I enjoy time with the children, teaching them basic spells."

[Lulupab]

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Rhys could have turned out much better if left in care of Wynne

Your evidence of this being...

I'd rather not force someone to live in isolation from normal society if there isn't a need for it; as soon as the magic appears, there is a need for it; and having an attachment to a child could have affected Wynne in a myriad of different, negative ways. For instance, if Rhys died during the Harrowing, this could have easily lead to Wynne becoming an Abomination or rebellious.
 

and according to Tevinters the child of two mages has significant chance of being a mage especially if parents of both the father and mother were mages as well. I.E if for ten generation someone's ancestors were all mages the chance of their child being a mage is like 95%. 

Where did you pull that number from?
Also, significant chance is not a guarantee. Let's say some mage keeps the toddler around and suddenly, he is 18 and no magic. Not only has he been isolated for no real motive but he has also been unable to learn any trade beyond becoming a Templar.
Oooops. Guess he would have been better off among the other normal people.

Honestly I did pull the number but Tevinter keeps track of pure mage blood families and those that have been pure for many generation almost always produce a mage child. Most Magisters are from such families. But the % is obviously unkown but it has to be higher than 80%.

And it was just a speculation. I think if they are going to take the child away they should at least let the parents know the child and child get to know his/her parents and take the child away when he is 15 or something and of course before the harrowing for the reason you mentioned, but the parent and child should know each other so later then can at least send letters or go visit if possible.

Modifié par Rassler, 12 janvier 2014 - 06:46 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

MisterJB wrote...

Honestly, according to the pro-mages, the Circles are cesspools of corruption where a mage can be beaten to death, gangraped or made Tranquil at any given moment, sleeps in chains and drinks his own urine,
And now they want kids in that environment.

lol this description of the Circles is hilariously the opposite of what we've observed in DA:O. 

[MisterJB]

Rotward wrote...
According to the mage start, there are todlers in the tower. 

No, we just see some kids of undetermined age. There is little to no chance of them being four or five years old.

As much so as an alchoholic, drug adict, convicted felon, teenager, traveling professional (I'll be back in six months, dear), anyone else living off the state (retired, poor, cripled), or schizophrenic parent is. The thing that matters is whether they have any support themselves, like a spouse, and commitment to the child. Especially when the parent lives in a community home, like the tower.

You are talking about cases that have little in common. For instance, a convicted felon who has done his time is not, by biological imperative, an automatic danger to a child; in such a case, commitment to the child would be enough to make that person a fit parent since there would be no abuse or neglect.
Mages are a threat to themselves and everyone around them by nature; they may have the best intentions, but all it will take is an afternoon nap gone wrong and suddenly mommy and daddy are Abominations. In these cases, just like in the cases where a parent is simply physically incapable of ensuring the quality of life of their child then, as sad as it may be, it is better for the child to be taken to people who can take care of them.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Veruin wrote...
Not that, that bothered me though.  I don't mind mages being 3x as power as the other classes.  If I want a challenge, I just...don't play mage.

Agreed.

I would like for the gameplay to properly reflect lore. Screw corss-class balance. This isn't PvP. It's not necessary

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...
Honestly I did pull the number but Tevinter keeps track of pure mage blood families and those that have been pure for many generation almost always produce a mage child. Most Magisters are from such families. But the % is obviously unkown but it has to be higher than 80%.

Magical talent is not nurtured in Southern Thedas; in fact, marrying into a family known to produce mages is a stigma; and thus, there are large mage families. Most mages have one or even two normal parents which would also increase the possibility of having normal children.

And it was just a speculation. I think if they are going to take the child away they should at least let the parents know the child and child get to know his/her parents and take the child away hen he is 15 or something and of course before the harrowing for the reason you mentioned, but the parent and child should know each other so later then can at least send letters or go visit if possible.

In medieval times, professions were mostly passed through familial ties. If your father was a smith, chances are you'd be a smith too; people didn't have much.
If the child of a Circle mage is born a non-mage and we let them keep it, two things will happen:
First, that child will spend most of its life isolated from society for no reason. That is a problem.
Second, all that child's parents will be able to teach them is magic which he will never be able to cast which means, you'd be throwing them into the world without a trade he can use to provide for himself. All he'll be able to be is a Templar and that also raises security issues because someone whose parents are mages may be unfit to restrict the freedoms of said mages.
If they had grown in the outside world, tough, there is the possibility of them becoming apprentices of someone and learning a profession.

There are a lot of issues regarding letting mages keep their accidental babies.

[In Exile]

MisterJB wrote...
 For instance, a convicted felon who has done his time is not, by biological imperative, an automatic danger to a child; in such a case, commitment to the child would be enough to make that person a fit parent since there would be no abuse or neglect.

Unless that convicted felon was guilty of an offence against children, e.g. just as criminal neglect or pedophelia. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
You seem to fit the definition here. You may not be a troll in general, but in this issue you are. Every argument that has been against you you just handwave away and you make straw man arguments, lika a mage is a walking nuclear bomb.

TKS is right in at least oen thing.
Mages are walking bombs.

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Rotward wrote...
According to the mage start, there are todlers in the tower. 

Also acording to Bethany's letter if she was sent to the Circle. 
" I enjoy time with the children, teaching them basic spells."

Children does not equal toddlers.
There are no toddlers in the tower, as magic doesnt' manifest that early.

[Vilegrim]

Kaiser Arian wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Honestly, according to the pro-mages, the Circles are cesspools of corruption where a mage can be beaten to death, gangraped or made Tranquil at any given moment, sleeps in chains and drinks his own urine,
And now they want kids in that environment.

lol this description of the Circles is hilariously the opposite of what we've observed in DA:O. 

you mean when the Templars had decide to kill all the mages?   DA2 showed the Circle as well, and in that the description (apart from the urine part) is spot on.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Vilegrim wrote...

Kaiser Arian wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Honestly, according to the pro-mages, the Circles are cesspools of corruption where a mage can be beaten to death, gangraped or made Tranquil at any given moment, sleeps in chains and drinks his own urine,
And now they want kids in that environment.

lol this description of the Circles is hilariously the opposite of what we've observed in DA:O. 

you mean when the Templars had decide to kill all the mages?   DA2 showed the Circle as well, and in that the description (apart from the urine part) is spot on.

fisrt sane decision made by templars that i saw sadly too late:lol:
Mages were abomnations and their life (few mages) wasn't even worth risk to save them sure they could but well why the should.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 12 janvier 2014 - 07:01 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
You seem to fit the definition here. You may not be a troll in general, but in this issue you are. Every argument that has been against you you just handwave away and you make straw man arguments, lika a mage is a walking nuclear bomb.

TKS is right in at least oen thing.
Mages are walking bombs.

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Rotward wrote...
According to the mage start, there are todlers in the tower. 

Also acording to Bethany's letter if she was sent to the Circle. 
" I enjoy time with the children, teaching them basic spells."

Children does not equal toddlers.
There are no toddlers in the tower, as magic doesnt' manifest that early.

I agree they are potential walking bombs, but not nuclear bombs like TKS seems to think. I've yet to see a mage in the lore have that much power on their own. The closest is the Tevinter Magisters, but they have an empire behind them, not just themselves.

Sorry, I did not mean toddlers. I was saying children as in the age range let's say 6-12. 

[Lulupab]

Wasn't Emile De launcet six when he showed signs of magic?

[TheKomandorShepard]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...


I agree they are potential walking bombs, but not nuclear bombs like TKS seems to think. I've yet to see a mage in the lore have that much power on their own. The closest is the Tevinter Magisters, but they have an empire behind them, not just themselves.

Sorry, I did not mean toddlers. I was saying children as in the age range let's say 6-12. 

Hmm not?
child abomnation destroyed village and castle and that wasn't even strongest demon...
baroness turned marshes into spooky graveyard entire town in matters of the second
Even 1 abomnation is danger for entire world (unless we are talking about weaker demons) sure they won't destroy world as quickly as nuclear bomb but damage can be smiliar or even greater.Pretty much 1 abomnation can spead like a virus to add more to that and well now we have torn veil... 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Rassler wrote...

Wasn't Emile De launcet six when he showed signs of magic?

Yes.

[Lord Raijin]

AresKeith wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Wynne was not part of the Kirkwall circle and the templar's kidnapped her newborn son. kidnapping babies from circle mages seems to be quite normal event.

View it as you like but it still makes sense to move a newborn child from a dangerous place as the Circle

Do you not realize how overly protective a mother can be once she has given birth to a child? Do you honestly believe that for a moment that Wynne would allow her newborn child to be in harms way once she restores her strength from child birth? Besides a newborn baby requires their mothers natrual milk from her breasts to feed her baby so they can get the proper antibodies that they need to fight infections, prevent allergies, and protect against a number of chronic conditions.

By the Templars snatching up newborn babies from circle mages puts the baby at risk for developing health problems due to lack of antibodies thats in the mothers milk. The newborn baby is far better off in the circle under the mothers care rather then to be at a nearby Chantry getting deprived from proper nutrition.

Oh and the Circle wouldn't be as dangerous if the mages were treated with respect.