1537 réponses à ce sujet

[TK514]

Lord Raijin wrote...

If mages like Evelina were to be left alone by the Chantries hound dogs and let them live their own lives she would've never became an Abomination in the first place.

If Evelina had been 'left alone', she and the kids she took responsibility for would have starved to death in the streets.  Which was the whole reason she went to the Circle to begin with.  Had she presented herself and the kids the moment she got off the boat, as she should have, they would have all been taken in by the proper authorities and none of the tragedy that followed would have happened.

Eveline was, almost note for note, Connor pt 2.  She was a Mage who did not go to the Circle where she belonged, made a deal with a demon to 'save' those she cared about only to almost destroy everything important to her instead.  Evelina is the perfect example of why Mages should be in Circles and why intense emotional connections, like children, are discouraged.

[KainD]

MisterJB wrote...

Anders is selfish.

Everyone is selfish, it's called - living. 
Anders was dragged into the circle because someone thought it was a good idea.
Anders thought a war was a good idea an dragged others into it. 

Modifié par KainD, 13 janvier 2014 - 01:58 .

[Lord Raijin]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

excuse that templars attacked her is very poor excuse given that you can be attacked by anyone like bandits (that girl in warehouse is best example) so well pro-mages that excuse doesn't work for anything that fooling yourself.

You can't be serious about what you're writing, are you? Perhabs you should replay the game with an open mind (I know it's painful, but at least try) and try to be more understanding of what the mages must go through under Chantries rulings.

Evelina got screwed by the templar's for doing the right thing, and as a result she became who she was.

Evelina was trained at a Fereldan Circle of Magi for eight years before the outbreak of the Fifth Blight. When the Blight began, she fled to the Free Marches. She claims she did so to escape the darkspawn, not the Circle. Along the way, she rescued groups of children orphaned by the Blight and brought them with her to Kirkwall. After settling into Darktown with the children, she took herself to the Circle in Kirkwall, thinking that they would help the children. Instead, they locked her up as an apostate and did nothing for her adopted family. During events prior to Act 3, she and a number of other mages manage to escape, destroying their phylacteries in the process. A group of templars pursued her, but she was able to fend them off, killing some of them. Upon realizing what she had done, she fled into the sewers. -Wika

[Lord Raijin]

TK514 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

If mages like Evelina were to be left alone by the Chantries hound dogs and let them live their own lives she would've never became an Abomination in the first place.

If Evelina had been 'left alone', she and the kids she took responsibility for would have starved to death in the streets.  Which was the whole reason she went to the Circle to begin with.  Had she presented herself and the kids the moment she got off the boat, as she should have, they would have all been taken in by the proper authorities and none of the tragedy that followed would have happened.

Eveline was, almost note for note, Connor pt 2.  She was a Mage who did not go to the Circle where she belonged, made a deal with a demon to 'save' those she cared about only to almost destroy everything important to her instead.  Evelina is the perfect example of why Mages should be in Circles and why intense emotional connections, like children, are discouraged.

If you look at my above post the templar's didn't do jack to her adopted children after they locked her up. They were going to starve regardless. At least she attempted to do something about it, but got screwed in the process.

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

excuse that templars attacked her is very poor excuse given that you can be attacked by anyone like bandits (that girl in warehouse is best example) so well pro-mages that excuse doesn't work for anything that fooling yourself.

The templars don't care if a mage is someone's mother, son, lover etc... They never cared. To them mages are mages, not even people and the "order" dictates that they must be locked up.

C'mon, that had nothing to with what he said.
TKS raised the valid question of: "If mages become Abominations when attacked by Templars, wouldn't they also become Abominations when attacked by other people such as criminals? We have seen it occur. And does that not mean that a mage can be mugged and suddenly become a weapon of mass destruction in the hands of a demon?"

And then you did an appeal to emotion that had nothing to do with the point he raised.
Plus, it's factually untrue. Templars see mages as people, they simply acknowledge that mages are very dangerous people. We lock up dangerous people, you know.

Modifié par MisterJB, 13 janvier 2014 - 02:03 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lord Raijin wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

excuse that templars attacked her is very poor excuse given that you can be attacked by anyone like bandits (that girl in warehouse is best example) so well pro-mages that excuse doesn't work for anything that fooling yourself.

You can't be serious about what you're writing, are you? Perhabs you should replay the game with an open mind (I know it's painful, but at least try) and try to be more understanding of what the mages must go through under Chantries rulings.

Evelina got screwed by the templar's for doing the right thing, and as a result she became who she was.

Evelina was trained at a Fereldan Circle of Magi for eight years before the outbreak of the Fifth Blight. When the Blight began, she fled to the Free Marches. She claims she did so to escape the darkspawn, not the Circle. Along the way, she rescued groups of children orphaned by the Blight and brought them with her to Kirkwall. After settling into Darktown with the children, she took herself to the Circle in Kirkwall, thinking that they would help the children. Instead, they locked her up as an apostate and did nothing for her adopted family. During events prior to Act 3, she and a number of other mages manage to escape, destroying their phylacteries in the process. A group of templars pursued her, but she was able to fend them off, killing some of them. Upon realizing what she had done, she fled into the sewers. -Wika

terrible just terrible do you want me to start write backstory every our companion who was free in thedas?Thedas is crapsack world deal with that now she have excuse because she was attacked by templars free her and she will have excuse because she was attacked by bandits , slavers , mercenaries or law guards take your pick life if full of excuses...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 13 janvier 2014 - 02:02 .

[Lulupab]

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Its so obvioys its not even funny. Evelina presented herself to the cricle but they branded her apostate and locked her up, didn't even let her send letters, possibily money to the children. So she escaped and we all know what happened next. It has EVERYTHING to do with the templars and how no one can survive in Kirkwall without licking templar boot. Stop blaming it on poverty, as evidence suggests Evelina was more than capable to feed them before she was locked up.

"You're fereldan, like us. But you feast on sweetmeats while your people starve in the Undercity. I spit on you traitor, and the pathetic Templars that sent you. Kirkwall should be mine, then my children would have a whole city to play in."

That is what she says, she only mentions the Templars in a generic fashion. What lead her to become an Abomination were simple facts of life like poverty because living is bloody hard. It was not that she was being kept from her kids and needed power; she had already escaped. It was simply anger, resentment, jealousy and desperation caused by watching people like Hawke living in mansions while her kids were beggars.

And this is why mages can't be trusted with freedom; life presents hardships that have nothing to do with the Templars and there is always the chances mages will give in to temptation and become monsters like what happened with Evelina.
If a mage family suddenly ends up on the streets because of the same reasons that have placed others there? Should we worry they'll use mind control to gain money? Become Abominations?

You simply hate Anders too much, unable to see how grey his actions were. Someone who is more than willing to die for freedom of others can be named anything but selfish.

Anders is selfish. You support his actions; ok, I couldn't care less; I can see why some people would support them. But Anders is selfish.
Anders was not leading a group of people that agreed with him and wanted the same he did; he was a lone rebel who felt things had to change. And because of that, he selected the Circle of Kirkwall to become unwilling martyrs.

What if the mages would rather live in the Circle that be placed in a fight or die situation?
It didn't matter to him, things had to change.

What if the Templars would rather things stay as they are and not be order to Annul the Circle?
It didn't matter to him, things had to change.

What if the civilians did not wish to be caught in the crossfire?
It didn't matter, things had to change.

Ultimately, Anders did what he did because HE felt that the world couldn't stay as it was; HE thought he knew better than everyone how the world should and HE would drag everyone into this new world if he had to. And that is what makes him selfish because his actions were committed because of how HE felt, not because of what OTHERS wanted.
A person can be selfish even if their actions are done for the supposed benefit of others.

A truly selfless person would either gain the support of the people he claimed to wish to help or he would respect their wishes to remain in the Circle. He might believe they were being foolish and denying themselves a worthier life but a selfless person would put his feelings aside and do what others wanted for themselves, not what he thought they should want for themselves.

And that is why, ultimately, Anders is a selfish person. His cause may even be worthy to many; not to me; but that doesn't change the fact Anders is selfish.

There are always people who don't want to change just because they are afraid to do so. A million innocents die to defeat a tyrant, do you think the army under the tyrant control want to kill their own people? No they don't but they are afraid and value their own life over that. Mages are not treated like people, Templars don't care of a mage is someone's mother, son, lover. They just follow set of rules which probably are twisted versions of what Andraste said. Anders was fully aware what might have happen if he allowed Justice to merge with himself. When Anders destroys the chantry and all mages get the blame gis point becomes obvious. Templars don't see mages as people, because people don't get blamced for something a person has done, but mages do. You however made nice point which makes what Anders did subjective to being selfish, not necessarily being selfish as a proven fact.

[Veruin]

Rassler wrote...

There are always people who don't want to change just because they are afraid to do so. A million innocents die to defeat a tyrant, do you think the army under the tyrant control want to kill their own people? No they don't but they are afraid and value their own life over that. Mages are not treated like people, Templars don't care of a mage is someone's mother, son, lover. They just follow set of rules which probably are twisted versions of what Andraste said. Anders was fully aware what might have happen if he allowed Justice to merge with himself. When Anders destroys the chantry and all mages get the blame gis point becomes obvious. Templars don't see mages as people, because people don't get blamced for something a person has done, but mages do. You however made nice point which makes what Anders did subjective to being selfish, not necessarily being selfish as a proven fact.

Do you ever make a different point or is it constantly "Mages are not treated like people" bull****?  

You don't know if they event want to change if you don't even bother checking in the first place.  

Going by this same logic, police officers don't treat people like people because they don't care if you're married, have son or whatever.  They're just upholding the law.

So, Anders was lying when he said it was a gesture of goodwill?  Can't say I'm surprised.

And here we go again.  The beautiful double standard.  *One mage uses blood magic to murder a village* "HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE ALL MAGES OF BLOOD MAGIC.  THERE ARE GOOD MAGES TOO" *One Templar commander calls for a RoA* "ALL TEMPLARS ARE OPPRESSORS AND DON'T TREAT THEM LIKE PEOPLE.  ALSO IF YOU SUPPORT THEM YOU SUPPORT RAPE.  DO YOU WANT TO SUPPORT RAPE?  DO YOU BUB!?!?"

Also back to the Anders fanboying.

Modifié par Veruin, 13 janvier 2014 - 02:15 .

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...
There are always people who don't want to change just because they are afraid to do so. A million innocents die to defeat a tyrant, do you think the army under the tyrant control want to kill their own people? No they don't but they are afraid and value their own life over that.

You are not presenting an original argument, it's the very same Anders uses.
But just because Anders thinks what he is doing will end up benefiting mages as a whole, that doesn't change the fact he is doing because of what HE believes is the right thing to do, not what others believes.
And that is why Anders is selfish.

Mages are not treated like people, Templars don't care of a mage is someone's mother, son, lover. They just follow set of rules which probably are twisted versions of what Andraste said.

They are given housing, clothing, food, education, rights and liberties (if more restricted). That is being treated like a person.
Just because their rights and freedoms are more restricted than those of normal people, that doesn't change the fact they are being treated like people. In fact, their quality of life is superior to that of the average thedosian.

Templars don't see mages as people, because people don't get blamced for something a person has done, but mages do.

Google "historical purges." Groups being targeted for the actions of individuals happens all the time.

You however made nice point which makes what Anders did subjective to being selfish, not necessarily being selfish as a proven fact.

Thank you but it is a proven fact.
It is subjective whether it was a good thing or not; I don't think it was, you clearly do; but it's selfishness is not debatable.
But, again, selfishness is not synonym with "wrong". 

Modifié par MisterJB, 13 janvier 2014 - 02:13 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

KainD wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Anders is selfish.

Everyone is selfish, it's called - living. 

Factually incorrect.

[Lulupab]

Veruin wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Mages are not treated like people, Templars don't care of a mage is someone's mother, son, lover. Templars don't see mages as people, because people don't get blamced for something a person has done, but mages do You however made nice point which makes what Anders did subjective to being selfish, not necessarily being selfish as a proven fact.

Do you ever make a different point or is it constantly "Mages are not treated like people" bull****?  

Going by this same logic, police officers don't treat people like people because they don't care if you're married, have son or whatever.  They're just upholding the law.

Also back to the Anders fanboying.

Oh you have got to be kidding me, calling my argument bull**** then making real life example of police. The police don't hunt people for how they are born. Also the police do care if someone is married or have children. They are usually informed immediately and their family rights are not stripped from them "in the eyes of the maker"

Modifié par Rassler, 13 janvier 2014 - 02:17 .

[KainD]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Factually incorrect.

Selflesness is an oxymoron. What would be the driving force for someone to do something that they PERSONALLY don't care about? People do something for others, because it makes THEM feel good. 

[Magdalena11]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

excuse that templars attacked her is very poor excuse given that you can be attacked by anyone like bandits (that girl in warehouse is best example) so well pro-mages that excuse doesn't work for anything that fooling yourself.

Olivia (Thrask's daughter) is a wonderful example.  She is being cornered by a group of armed men who know she's a mage and their first comment is "Tie her hands.  You know they can't do no magic without their hands."  They know she's a mage and she knows this is what is causing her danger.  She has not been trained in a circle or by a parent or keeper, so she has no organized magic at her disposal.  Out of desparation, she becomes an abomination because it's the only defense she has.

Rhys makes a better example of what happens to a trained mage if he's set on outside the protection of the circle confines.  He got mugged while he was serving the Orlesian spy in Tevinter.  Instead of using magic that he had at his command to defend himself, he got beaten to a pulp.  He could have stunned his attackers and ran.  Or the scene in the tavern where he, Adrian, Wynne and Evangeline are nearly the start of a bar brawl because of suspicion against what the optimistic bartender calls "chantry folk."  It is only through diplomacy and bribes that the protags are able to avoid a fight and still get to sleep in the barn.  Mind control would have saved quite a bit of money and provided comfortable beds to boot but they knew better.

Sorry I've got to use examples from Asunder, which not everyone has read.  In game, the only interactions that are witnessed are meant to set up PC decisions and impressions and the only choices to be made are done so by the PC.  A hack-and-slash player such as myself seldom learns about stealth, for instance.  I hope that in this game a more varied view is given of what options are available.  The hints are there but I'm a bit thick to see them.  Perhaps if there's a parenthetical note after a choice that says "pick this one to avoid a fight."

The circles are going to need to change if they are going to be restored.  I think the events of DAI are going to make a change inevitable.  The lyrium shortage due to templars severying ties with the chantry, the discovery and use of red lyrium by the red templars and the lyrium monster fought in the PAX demo point this way.  I think the templars are going to face the same challenges that the mages have faced since the founding of the chantry:  that they have the potential to become a danger to the public, special, morally questionable means are required to ensure the public safety and only a special method can be used to control them.

Mages have been calling for equality and the situation that I think is being set up would bring a kind of equality.  It's an equality of the worse kind but it is equality.  Not how I would choose to resolve the situation but how I believe the choice is going to be presented.

[Veruin]

MisterJB wrote...

They are given housing, clothing, food, education, rights and liberties (if more restricted). That is being treated like a person.
Just because their rights and freedoms are more restricted than those of normal people, that doesn't change the fact they are being treated like people. In fact, their quality of life is superior to that of the average thedosian.

Get ready for the usual "It's still a gilded cage".

[KainD]

Magdalena11 wrote...

"Tie her hands.  You know they can't do no magic without their hands." 

That quote must have flied by my ears. I don't remember DA magic requiring somatic components. Does it? 

[KainD]

Veruin wrote...

Get ready for the usual "It's still a gilded cage".

Well yeah it is. The perception of it varies from person to person though, some are content ith it others are not 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lord Raijin wrote...
That is true. It is only in human nature to be protected over the people that you truly care about. This is why the Chantry should have no rights over the mages. They do not belong to them. Slavery is illegal in Ferelden so mages shouldn't be the property of nobody. Hawke's father and Flemeth are examples of mages who can raise a family without chantries assistance.

Mages aren't property.

You're getting too hanged up about the usage of the word "belong" even tough such word is often used without any legal ownership.

The children "belong" to the chantry as much as kids taken by child serives "belong" to the child services.

[Lulupab]

Veruin wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

They are given housing, clothing, food, education, rights and liberties (if more restricted). That is being treated like a person.
Just because their rights and freedoms are more restricted than those of normal people, that doesn't change the fact they are being treated like people. In fact, their quality of life is superior to that of the average thedosian.

Get ready for the usual "It's still a gilded cage".

Well its a prettied up prison according to conversation between mage warden and wynne. Wynne actually accepts it and approves (+2).

Anyway I just wanted to tell you me liking Anders is not fanboyism. I have always accepted his flaws and I didn't even like him that much in awakening. I like him because of his action.

[Veruin]

Rassler wrote...

Anyway I just wanted to tell you me liking Anders is not fanboyism. I have always accepted his flaws and I didn't even like him that much in awakening. I like him because of his action.

I call it fanboyism because just about every thread/post you make has a reference to Anders in it.  At least Raijin mixes it up every once in awhile.

[Lulupab]

Veruin wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Anyway I just wanted to tell you me liking Anders is not fanboyism. I have always accepted his flaws and I didn't even like him that much in awakening. I like him because of his action.

I call it fanboyism because just about every thread/post you make has a reference to Anders in it.  At least Raijin mixes it up every once in awhile.

That's because he is a major character in DA2. He always either adds additional conversations or even changes course of game when you bring him with you. After Hawke he has the biggest role in DA2.

[Jaison1986]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
That is true. It is only in human nature to be protected over the people that you truly care about. This is why the Chantry should have no rights over the mages. They do not belong to them. Slavery is illegal in Ferelden so mages shouldn't be the property of nobody. Hawke's father and Flemeth are examples of mages who can raise a family without chantries assistance.

Mages aren't property.

You're getting too hanged up about the usage of the word "belong" even tough such word is often used without any legal ownership.

The children "belong" to the chantry as much as kids taken by child serives "belong" to the child services.

If they are not property, why they are denied leave of the Circle despite being fully trained and harrowed? Or killed if they try to flee? If they were not property, the Templars wouldn't be able to deny them such things.

[MisterJB]

Jaison1986 wrote...
If they are not property, why they are denied leave of the Circle despite being fully trained and harrowed? Or killed if they try to flee? If they were not property, the Templars wouldn't be able to deny them such things.

Felons are not propriety of the state in civilized countries but they are still denied leave of the prisons.

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...
Well its a prettied up prison

Maybe but they are being treated like people albeit very dangerous ones. Which they are.

[The Elder King]

@Rassler: Anders didn't know at all what would've happened if he merged with Justice. He didn't know his feelings would've corrupted him. He didn't know he'd lost control of himself if enraged, and that the spirit inside him would've killed mages just because they thought he was a monster.

[Lulupab]

MisterJB wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...
If they are not property, why they are denied leave of the Circle despite being fully trained and harrowed? Or killed if they try to flee? If they were not property, the Templars wouldn't be able to deny them such things.

Felons are not propriety of the state in civilized countries but they are still denied leave of the prisons.

They are allowed to leave when the correction system recognizes they have paid for their crime. Its not even an option in the circles!