1537 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

KainD wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Factually incorrect.

Selflesness is an oxymoron. What would be the driving force for someone to do something that they PERSONALLY don't care about? People do something for others, because it makes THEM feel good. 

I just have to say no to this.

There are all types of personalities out there, several doesn't do something to feel good.  And then you are not getting into self destructive personalities.

The other thing is that saying that you have a foresight and think in long term for your own benefit in every little favour you do that is not true either. Few think that long into the future when they act.

So no, you can definitely be selfless.

[Jaison1986]

Rassler wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...
If they are not property, why they are denied leave of the Circle despite being fully trained and harrowed? Or killed if they try to flee? If they were not property, the Templars wouldn't be able to deny them such things.

Felons are not propriety of the state in civilized countries but they are still denied leave of the prisons.

They are allowed to leave when the correction system recognizes they have paid for their crime. Its not even an option in the circles!

And let's not forget that felons are usually deranged criminals proved to be an threat to society. While mages only crimes are being born the way they are, and no matter how peaceful or acomplished they are, freedom is still denied to them.

[Lulupab]

hhh89 wrote...

@Rassler: Anders didn't know at all what would've happened if he merged with Justice. He didn't know his feelings would've corrupted him. He didn't know he'd lost control of himself if enraged, and that the spirit inside him would've killed mages just because they thought he was a monster.

I didn't say he knew exactly what's going to happen. He knew what he was getting himself into when he accepted his offer aka to bring Justice to every mage and child stripped from the hands of a mother to be sent to cricle.

Also when you friend Anders the codex says thanks to Hawke's support Anders have learned to control the spirit within and only loses his control when fighting templars in opposoed to Rival anders starting to lose himself completely.

I think it has to do with the fact that Hawke's support makes Anders stronger as he is literally the only one supporting him but if Hawke chooses not to support him, accepted nowhere Anders slowly starts to get weaker and weaker and Justice seeing as Anders is incompotent takes over to finish what they started. A friend and supporter can give you enough inspiration an strength to go on.

Modifié par Rassler, 13 janvier 2014 - 02:38 .

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...
If they are not property, why they are denied leave of the Circle despite being fully trained and harrowed? Or killed if they try to flee? If they were not property, the Templars wouldn't be able to deny them such things.

Felons are not propriety of the state in civilized countries but they are still denied leave of the prisons.

They are allowed to leave when the correction system recognizes they have paid for their crime. Its not even an option in the circles!

Because mages are not being punished.
Look, you and me have had restrictions placed upon us from the very moment we were born. This is what the law is for; the legal system limits the freedoms of citizens so that we may coexist. It's why there are rules that say "Do this in this way rather than that way. Don't do that. ETC"
Do these restrictions apply only to those who have given indication they are dangerous? No, they apply to all citizens because we all have the potential to be dangerous.
Now, in our world, these restrictions are applied equally because we are, more or less, equal. We can all grab a gun and start shooting. Unfortunately, normal people and mages are simply not equal; mages will always be more dangerous than your average normal person. After all, all it took was one young mage for Redcliff to be destroyed.

Therefore, shouldn't the restrictions placed upon mages be harsher in order to reflect the increased danger they pose? That is the purpose of the Circle.

Modifié par MisterJB, 13 janvier 2014 - 02:38 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Mages aren't property.

You're getting too hanged up about the usage of the word "belong" even tough such word is often used without any legal ownership.

The children "belong" to the chantry as much as kids taken by child serives "belong" to the child services.

If they are not property, why they are denied leave of the Circle despite being fully trained and harrowed? Or killed if they try to flee? If they were not property, the Templars wouldn't be able to deny them such things.

Because the Circle is a quarantene.

Just becomes someone restrict your movement, that doesn't mean you are property.
Hey, you can't enter the chinese embassy. That must mean they own you..right?

And let's not forget that felons are usually deranged criminals proved
to be an threat to society. While mages only crimes are being born the
way they are, and no matter how peaceful or acomplished they are,
freedom is still denied to them.

You know why? Because it doesn't matter how peacefull or accomplished a mage is.
Connor was very peaecfull and a nice kid.
Uldred was very accomplished.

The nature of mages and demons means that no matter how good you appear to be, you are STILL a ticking bomb.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 13 janvier 2014 - 02:42 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

KainD wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Factually incorrect.

Selflesness is an oxymoron. What would be the driving force for someone to do something that they PERSONALLY don't care about? People do something for others, because it makes THEM feel good. 

That you feel good about it, does not make the action selfish. So to reiterate: You are factually incorrect.

[Jaison1986]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Mages aren't property.

You're getting too hanged up about the usage of the word "belong" even tough such word is often used without any legal ownership.

The children "belong" to the chantry as much as kids taken by child serives "belong" to the child services.

If they are not property, why they are denied leave of the Circle despite being fully trained and harrowed? Or killed if they try to flee? If they were not property, the Templars wouldn't be able to deny them such things.

Because the Circle is a quarantene.

Just becomes someone restrict your movement, that doesn't mean you are property.
Hey, you can't enter the chinese embassy. That must mean they own you..right?

Right... because being denied enter an particular location is exactly the same as being denied to leave an place were you were locked up your entire life. Perfectly fine comparasion.

[Lulupab]

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...
If they are not property, why they are denied leave of the Circle despite being fully trained and harrowed? Or killed if they try to flee? If they were not property, the Templars wouldn't be able to deny them such things.

Felons are not propriety of the state in civilized countries but they are still denied leave of the prisons.

They are allowed to leave when the correction system recognizes they have paid for their crime. Its not even an option in the circles!

Because mages are not being punished.
Look, you and me have had restrictions placed upon us from the very moment we were born. This is what the law is for; the legal system limits the freedoms of citizens so that we may coexist. It's why there are rules that say "Do this in this way rather than that way. Don't do that. ETC"
Do these restrictions apply only to those who have given indication they are dangerous? No, they apply to all citizens because we all have the potential to be dangerous.
Now, in our world, these restrictions are applied equally because we are, more or less, equal. We can all grab a gun and start shooting. Unfortunately, normal people and mages are simply not equal; mages will always be more dangerous than your average normal person. After all, all it took was one young mage for Redcliff to be destroyed.

Therefore, shouldn't the restrictions placed upon mages be harsher in order to reflect the increased danger they pose? That is the purpose of the Circle.

I agree but I'm saying take mages, train them and let them go. The chances of them being dangerous after fully trained is very low but it does exists and I think the damage released mages might cause is much little than the damage keeping mages in circle all their life is already causing.

[Veruin]

Rassler wrote...
Also when you friend Anders the codex says thanks to Hawke's support Anders have learned to control the spirit within and only loses his control when fighting templars in opposoed to Rival anders starting to lose himself completely.

Considering Hawke can be just as much (if not more) than a fanatical mage freedom fighter than Anders, I always took it as Anders thinking what he's doing is right after all and merely stops resisting Justice.  Justice has no need to take over if Anders is already willingly doing what Justice believes is right.

[esper]

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...
If they are not property, why they are denied leave of the Circle despite being fully trained and harrowed? Or killed if they try to flee? If they were not property, the Templars wouldn't be able to deny them such things.

Felons are not propriety of the state in civilized countries but they are still denied leave of the prisons.

They are allowed to leave when the correction system recognizes they have paid for their crime. Its not even an option in the circles!

Because mages are not being punished.
Look, you and me have had restrictions placed upon us from the very moment we were born. This is what the law is for; the legal system limits the freedoms of citizens so that we may coexist. It's why there are rules that say "Do this in this way rather than that way. Don't do that. ETC"
Do these restrictions apply only to those who have given indication they are dangerous? No, they apply to all citizens because we all have the potential to be dangerous.
Now, in our world, these restrictions are applied equally because we are, more or less, equal. We can all grab a gun and start shooting. Unfortunately, normal people and mages are simply not equal; mages will always be more dangerous than your average normal person. After all, all it took was one young mage for Redcliff to be destroyed.

Therefore, shouldn't the restrictions placed upon mages be harsher in order to reflect the increased danger they pose? That is the purpose of the Circle.

Those restriction places on us is theorectically placed on everyone in the society and that is the crucial difference. The only way to end the mage problem is to have the mages a fully intergrated part of society. That ways the law abiding/mentally strong mages have just a huge risk as everybody when another mage goes criminal/abormination and will help police themself simply to protect their loved ones/own life.

As it is now the majority of mages have no stake in Thedas society and thus no reason to care what happens to it. In fact most of them will benefit more if society break down. Which is why the circle system failed.

[Giggles_Manically]

Make them all wear pink ugly mage hats.

That way they will be to busy pointing and laughing at each other each time they meet that nothing will be able to be done.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Magdalena11 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

excuse that templars attacked her is very poor excuse given that you can be attacked by anyone like bandits (that girl in warehouse is best example) so well pro-mages that excuse doesn't work for anything that fooling yourself.

Olivia (Thrask's daughter) is a wonderful example.  She is being cornered by a group of armed men who know she's a mage and their first comment is "Tie her hands.  You know they can't do no magic without their hands."  They know she's a mage and she knows this is what is causing her danger.  She has not been trained in a circle or by a parent or keeper, so she has no organized magic at her disposal.  Out of desparation, she becomes an abomination because it's the only defense she has.

Rhys makes a better example of what happens to a trained mage if he's set on outside the protection of the circle confines.  He got mugged while he was serving the Orlesian spy in Tevinter.  Instead of using magic that he had at his command to defend himself, he got beaten to a pulp.  He could have stunned his attackers and ran.  Or the scene in the tavern where he, Adrian, Wynne and Evangeline are nearly the start of a bar brawl because of suspicion against what the optimistic bartender calls "chantry folk."  It is only through diplomacy and bribes that the protags are able to avoid a fight and still get to sleep in the barn.  Mind control would have saved quite a bit of money and provided comfortable beds to boot but they knew better.

Sorry I've got to use examples from Asunder, which not everyone has read.  In game, the only interactions that are witnessed are meant to set up PC decisions and impressions and the only choices to be made are done so by the PC.  A hack-and-slash player such as myself seldom learns about stealth, for instance.  I hope that in this game a more varied view is given of what options are available.  The hints are there but I'm a bit thick to see them.  Perhaps if there's a parenthetical note after a choice that says "pick this one to avoid a fight."

The circles are going to need to change if they are going to be restored.  I think the events of DAI are going to make a change inevitable.  The lyrium shortage due to templars severying ties with the chantry, the discovery and use of red lyrium by the red templars and the lyrium monster fought in the PAX demo point this way.  I think the templars are going to face the same challenges that the mages have faced since the founding of the chantry:  that they have the potential to become a danger to the public, special, morally questionable means are required to ensure the public safety and only a special method can be used to control them.

Mages have been calling for equality and the situation that I think is being set up would bring a kind of equality.  It's an equality of the worse kind but it is equality.  Not how I would choose to resolve the situation but how I believe the choice is going to be presented.

Do i have mention 99 % other mages who turned into abomnation in kirkwall because of small excuse.Yep i read asunder and as far i renember adrian wanted burn that guy.And rhys better example was controled by demon (if lambert version is correct). Circles are too lax they need be more much more restrictive and cut
every connection to outiside world to circles started worked but still i
don't see that working...
Mages aren't equal they are demons portal nothing less nothing more and should be treated as such... 

[Magdalena11]

KainD wrote...

Magdalena11 wrote...

"Tie her hands.  You know they can't do no magic without their hands." 

That quote must have flied by my ears. I don't remember DA magic requiring somatic components. Does it? 

The slaver thugs seemed to think it did.  I seem to remember being frozen in place by an exuberant ally and being unable to cast but I've not been tied up yet.    It could have been that the thugs were told that to give them a false sense of security.

All my opinions are expressly my own.  I'm right a lot and I'm wrong a lot.  If I actually say something that makes sense, anyone who wants is invited to share them.  If they disagree with someone else's that person is invited to ignore me.

Modifié par Magdalena11, 13 janvier 2014 - 02:52 .

[The Elder King]

@Rassler: So you were talking about Anders's goal, not the consequences of merge?
As for Justice 'finishing what they started' in rivarly, it's incorrect. Anders's goal is to free mages. Bombing the Chantry was just a method to trigger the war, which Anders on rivarly came to think it's excessive (with Hawke's help), and decided to stop. Justice took over because he thought it had to be done. Anders's at that point wasn't backing off on his goal to free mages. He decided that the bomb wasn't the right way to do it, and Justice overrides him. Anders isn't 'weak' for accomplishing his goal. He's weak in controlling the demon.
As for Hawke having a role in controlling Justice, I agree on that. But the fact that Anders needed to help for controlling himself is negative in my opinion. He wasn't suitable for spirit merging (which is an extremely dangerous thing in general), because his feeling corrupted the spirit, because he wasf able to control it without help, and expecially because the was completely ignorant on the topic.

[Lulupab]

Veruin wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Also when you friend Anders the codex says thanks to Hawke's support Anders have learned to control the spirit within and only loses his control when fighting templars in opposoed to Rival anders starting to lose himself completely.

Considering Hawke can be just as much (if not more) than a fanatical mage freedom fighter than Anders, I always took it as Anders thinking what he's doing is right after all and merely stops resisting Justice.  Justice has no need to take over if Anders is already willingly doing what Justice believes is right.

Its an interpretaion but the codex suggests Hawke's support is more like an inspiration to Anders and its important for mages. All it takes to be an abomination is wanting to be one so willpower is very important and I believe a friend Anders have enough will power to control Justice as much as possible but as the evidence suggests they are really one and its like Anders resisting a strong urge to do something rather than a spirit within. Have yo ever kept Anders alive and had him as a friend at the end before facing meredith (you have to side with mages for this to happen). The way he talks he is no longer the Anders we know, its someone new, refreshed. almost like awakening Anders.

Modifié par Rassler, 13 janvier 2014 - 02:54 .

[The Elder King]

Veruin wrote...
  Justice has no need to take over if Anders is already willingly doing what Justice believes is right.

Indeed. He didn't assume control because Anders was on his same page. The moment Anders decides he was going too far (which is entirely in his right) Justice assumed direct control. 

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...
I agree but I'm saying take mages, train them and let them go. The chances of them being dangerous after fully trained is very low but it does exists and I think the damage released mages might cause is much little than the damage keeping mages in circle all their life is already causing.

Not really. When Uldred became an Abomination, how many civillians died? Not a single one. Why? Because the mages were in the Circles, far away from the civillians.
The damage mages are causing now is because the Templars failed to keep them in the Circle. Had they remained there, none of this would be happening.

[The Elder King]

@Rassler: I remember having the impression that Anders was strange during the end as a friend, but I don't recall why.

[MisterJB]

esper wrote...
Those restriction places on us is theorectically placed on everyone in the society and that is the crucial difference.

Because mages are more dangerous than normal people.

The only way to end the mage problem is to have the mages a fully intergrated part of society. That ways the law abiding/mentally strong mages have just a huge risk as everybody when another mage goes criminal/abormination and will help police themself simply to protect their loved ones/own life.

That is not mutually exclusive with the Circle system. Law abiding mages fought to stop Uldred because he was destroying their home and turning his fellows into Abominations and, because they were isolated, not a single civilian was harmed.

As it is now the majority of mages have no stake in Thedas society and thus no reason to care what happens to it. In fact most of them will benefit more if society break down.

Not untrue. But if I had to bank my safety on either:

a) Miles of distance plus steel bars plus Templars between me and the mages

or 
the morals and good intentions of mages

I'm going with a), no question.

That is not to say there shouldn't be ways of shortening the gap between thedosian society and the Circle but dissolving it would only create problems.

Modifié par MisterJB, 13 janvier 2014 - 03:00 .

[Veruin]

Rassler wrote...
Have yo ever kept Anders alive and had him as a friend at the end before facing meredith (you have to side with mages for this to happen). The way he talks he is no longer the Anders we know, its someone new, refreshed. almost like awakening Anders.

I did once on my first ever playthrough. I only remember the rather creepy statement he made about how their children could be raised to be mages or something.  Back then I actually believed in Mage freedom too.  That they should be free just because they're people.  I also thought MisterJB and Lotion were complete ****s for denying them that.  Ah, how times change.

Modifié par Veruin, 13 janvier 2014 - 03:07 .

[AresKeith]

Rassler wrote...

Veruin wrote...

I call it fanboyism because just about every thread/post you make has a reference to Anders in it.  At least Raijin mixes it up every once in awhile.

That's because he is a major character in DA2. He always either adds additional conversations or even changes course of game when you bring him with you. After Hawke he has the biggest role in DA2.

No, it's fanboyism

[Jaison1986]

Veruin wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Have yo ever kept Anders alive and had him as a friend at the end before facing meredith (you have to side with mages for this to happen). The way he talks he is no longer the Anders we know, its someone new, refreshed. almost like awakening Anders.

I did once on my first ever playthrough. I only remember the rather creepy statement he made about how their children could be raised to be mages or something.  Back then I actually believed in Mage freedom too.  That they should be free just because they're people.  I also thought MisterJB and Lotion were complete ****s for denying them that.  Ah, how times change.

I have a hard time picturing that. What made you start thinking so differently?

Modifié par Jaison1986, 13 janvier 2014 - 03:10 .

[Veruin]

Jaison1986 wrote...

I have a hard time picturing that. What made you start thinking so differently?

A combination of BSN pro mages, considering the consequences if mages did have the total freedom most pro mages advocate, and realizing the majority takes priority over the minority.  Things could be changed for the better in the circles (Mages's families can visit them and what not, Templars need to be dedicated to their job and not some random bum who had no other option) but overall, I think the current system is fine.

Modifié par Veruin, 13 janvier 2014 - 03:21 .

[KainD]

MisterJB wrote...

Not untrue. But if I had to bank my safety on either:

a) Miles of distance plus steel bars plus Templars between me and the mages

or 
the morals and good intentions of mages

I'm going with a), no question.

That is not to say there shouldn't be ways of shortening the gap between thedosian society and the Circle but dissolving it would only create problems.

And if you were a mage? 

[AresKeith]

Veruin wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

I have a hard time picturing that. What made you start thinking so differently?

A combination of BSN pro mages, considering the consequences if mages did have the total freedom most pro mages advocate, and realizing the majority takes priority over the minority.

It's best to stay neutral, you'll be sane