1537 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

I used to be pro-mage. As soon as the pro-mage side started advocating genocide and planning up holidays around that I promptly joined the group of people that hated both sides. BSN will do that to you.

[Veruin]

AresKeith wrote...

It's best to stay neutral, you'll be sane

I pretty much am neutral.  The pro mages just make more (redacted because I can't think of a better word)
suggestions than the pro templars do though, so I but heads with them more often.  There's a reason I ignore TKS completely.

Modifié par Veruin, 13 janvier 2014 - 03:20 .

[Lulupab]

Veruin wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Have yo ever kept Anders alive and had him as a friend at the end before facing meredith (you have to side with mages for this to happen). The way he talks he is no longer the Anders we know, its someone new, refreshed. almost like awakening Anders.

I did once on my first ever playthrough. I only remember the rather creepy statement he made about how their children could be raised to be mages or something.  Back then I actually believed in Mage freedom too.  That they should be free just because they're people.  I also thought MisterJB and Lotion were complete ****s for denying them that.  Ah, how times change.

I never said mages should be completely free. I said the circles should go and a new system should be intoduced in regards to controlling mages. Anders was oppossed to circles as well. He was the most agressive member when it came to demons and blood magic.

At the end he does not talk about having mage children and "creepy stuff" he talks about mage children growing up in loving emrabce of their parents, just like Hawke (if mage).

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

@Veruin Good policy.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 13 janvier 2014 - 03:18 .

[Jaison1986]

Veruin wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

I have a hard time picturing that. What made you start thinking so differently?

A combination of BSN pro mages, considering the consequences if mages did have the total freedom most pro mages advocate, and realizing the majority takes priority over the minority.

Well, I'm pro mage. But I don't think that "total freedom" is the answer. Considering what happened to Connor or Meredith sister. Honestly, all I ask is to have circles were biased groups have no control over the mages and they are allowed temporary leaves. They did that in Rivain and it worked well enough untill the bloody Seekers came along. 

[AresKeith]

Veruin wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

It's best to stay neutral, you'll be sane

I pretty much am neutral.  The pro mages just make more stupid suggestions than the pro templars do though, so I but heads with them more often.  There's a reason I ignore TKS completely.

Yep, and the times I do but heads with pro-Templars there mostly tame compare to.pro-mages

[MisterJB]

KainD wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Not untrue. But if I had to bank my safety on either:

a) Miles of distance plus steel bars plus Templars between me and the mages

or 
the morals and good intentions of mages

I'm going with a), no question.

That is not to say there shouldn't be ways of shortening the gap between thedosian society and the Circle but dissolving it would only create problems.

And if you were a mage? 

Obviously, I would pretend to be a reasonable lucrosian who would defend the Circles while proposing measures that would ensure mages would economically dominate all aspects of life which would, in time, lead to mages becoming the sole providers of society's infrastructure which would, inevitably, lead to normal people becoming second class citizens while mages hold all the power.
It amazes me how the lucrosians are one of the smallest fraternities. Mages are stupid.

[dragonflight288]

Veruin wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

I have a hard time picturing that. What made you start thinking so differently?

A combination of BSN pro mages, considering the consequences if mages did have the total freedom most pro mages advocate, and realizing the majority takes priority over the minority.  Things could be changed for the better in the circles (Mages's families can visit them and what not, Templars need to be dedicated to their job and not some random bum who had not other option) but overall, I think the current system is fine.

The current system would be fine if the templars were held to a universal standard as an institution, and they practiced extensive oversight. And Word of Thedas says that the Nevarran Accord, the very agreement that started the Circle system, promised and guaranteed the mages their own level of autonomy, with templars only present to watch and advice, but would ultimately have no say in how the Circle was run.

That has changed to where the Knight Commander can potentially control every aspect of the Circle, and it doesn't matter what the mages do, doesn't matter how good lives they live, they can still be sentenced to death for the actions of another.

So until the system is reformed so mages are given some level of autonomy, like a council of enchanters making decisions like they were originally supposed to do, templars held to a universal standard AND punished for their own misdeeds, the system cannot be called fine.

It is broken beecause templars exist not only to protect the world from mages, but also to protect mages from the world. If the system doesn't punish templars who abuse mages, or allows individual circles to have their own form of justice without any form of appeal that mages can take advantage of, then the Circle fails for what it sets out to do.

And before anyone mentions "oh, he's bringing up Kirkwall again," note that I didn't bring up Kirkwall but pointed out that each Circle is different from each other because the templars are not held to a universal standard, and the templars are failing spectacularly to protect the mages from the world which is part of their oaths as templars.

[MisterJB]

Jaison1986 wrote...
Well, I'm pro mage. But I don't think that "total freedom" is the answer. Considering what happened to Connor or Meredith sister. Honestly, all I ask is to have circles were biased groups have no control over the mages and they are allowed temporary leaves. They did that in Rivain and it worked well enough untill the bloody Seekers came along. 

According to World of Thedas, the more traditional Rivain communities are ruled by Seers AKA mages.
Considering how the purpose of the Circles is also to ensure that normal people won't be ruled by mages, I'd say they failed spectacularly in that regard.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Veruin wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

It's best to stay neutral, you'll be sane

I pretty much am neutral.  The pro mages just make more (redacted because I can't think of a better word)
suggestions than the pro templars do though, so I but heads with them more often.  There's a reason I ignore TKS completely.

lols im neither pro-mage or pro-templar (im intrested only in profit) and pretty much of the time i state facts not suggestions.

[Veruin]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Well, I'm pro mage. But I don't think that "total freedom" is the answer. 

I should probably clear up "total freedom" as "All the rights the normal people have". (Which isn't much in the first place)  Economically, with how many mages there are, I don't see it working and my cynicism gets the best of me when you appeal to me about good morals and junk.  There's more, but I don't really feel like typing more.

Modifié par Veruin, 13 janvier 2014 - 03:29 .

[mousestalker]

Arranged marriages between the members of the factions. That would take the fighting off the streets and keep it inside, where it belongs. Also mage children would be neutralized by their templar siblings giving them mana robbing fade wedgies.

[TK514]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The current system would be fine if the templars were held to a universal standard as an institution, and they practiced extensive oversight. And Word of Thedas says that the Nevarran Accord, the very agreement that started the Circle system, promised and guaranteed the mages their own level of autonomy, with templars only present to watch and advice, but would ultimately have no say in how the Circle was run.

So you want the Seekers to do their jobs.

[Warden Majere]

The mages should rule themselves. Though I do believe that the Templars and Seekers should still be around in case them mages become too corrupt such as in the Tevintor Imperium. They should join back up with the Chantry as their military arm. But they should have no hold over the actions of the mages.

[LobselVith8]

mousestalker wrote...

Arranged marriages between the members of the factions. That would take the fighting off the streets and keep it inside, where it belongs. Also mage children would be neutralized by their templar siblings giving them mana robbing fade wedgies.

Do Dalish, Dwarven, and Tal-Vashoth protagonists shake their head in disbelief that it's come to this? What happens when a mage decides that he's had enough, and there can be no compromise, as long as there are wedgies?

[TK514]

Lord Raijin wrote...

If you look at my above post the templar's didn't do jack to her adopted children after they locked her up. They were going to starve regardless. At least she attempted to do something about it, but got screwed in the process.

There are organizations for taking care of young refugees who might otherwise starve in the street.  In a shocking turn of events, none of them are called "The Templars" or "The Cirgle of Mages".

They locked her up because she was a proven flight risk, who showed no understanding that what she had done was in any way dangerous.  She didn't return to the Circle because she was a Mage who understood the inherent risks of her being out, or because she realized it was wrong to not report in.  She returned to beg the wrong organization to help her orphans.  No reasonable authority figure would have done anything but lock her up.  And all she ended up doing was proving them right.  She was a flight risk, and she did become an abomination.

The tragedy here is that the road to hell was paved with good intentions.  Just like with Connor.  Unlike with Connor, most of it is on her own head because she was stupid.  The Templars and Mages may not be in the business of dealing  with starving orphans, but you know who is?  The Chantry.  Afraid of that big building in Hightown?  Not to worry.  There's a sister standing outside the Hanged Man in Lowtown all virtually the time.  Speaking of Lowtown, a little asking around would provide an interesting tidbit; there is a store in Lowtown where Ferelden ex-pats take donations and sell goods to keep refugees from starving.  Amazing.  

Even in craphole Kirkwall, she had options to take care of those kids, the smartest one being "Present your group to the proper authorities upon arrival in the City".

[thetinyevil]

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Well its a prettied up prison

Maybe but they are being treated like people albeit very dangerous ones. Which they are.

No mages are not treated like people. They are treated like property that is completely expendable and replaceable.

[Veruin]

thetinyevil wrote...

No mages are not treated like people. They are treated like property that is completely expendable and replaceable.

Please do show me the proof.  If they were treated as expendable and replaceable they would live in much harsher conditions.

[Hellion Rex]

thetinyevil wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Well its a prettied up prison

Maybe but they are being treated like people albeit very dangerous ones. Which they are.

No mages are not treated like people. They are treated like property that is completely expendable and replaceable.

Not really. They are simply treated as extremely dangerous and potentially volatile people.

[MisterJB]

thetinyevil wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Well its a prettied up prison

Maybe but they are being treated like people albeit very dangerous ones. Which they are.

No mages are not treated like people. They are treated like property that is completely expendable and replaceable.

Mages have rights, freedoms and they are given the same basic necessities people need to survive such as shelter, food and clothing amongst other. Furthermore, mages are not forced to do anything beyond the Harrowing and remaining in their Circles.
How doe any of that equal "property"?

Also, before you say that Templars can disrespect those rights and freedoms, keep in mind that the same is true of the guardsmen in the cities.

[MisterJB]

It is worth noting that Evelina's kids, along with many other orphans of Kirkwall, were taken in by the Chantry. They simply ran away.
You can overhear some Sisters wondering why the orphans won't let the Chantry help them.

Modifié par MisterJB, 13 janvier 2014 - 04:47 .

[thetinyevil]

Cullen: We have dominion over mages by divine right.

Not an exact quate but that is what he said. Along with a lot of other dialog in game that calls mages property. Then there were all the executions and tranqilities preformed in Kirkwall. Also lets not forget what happened at the end if Asunder, all the circles were annulled for no reason.

[MisterJB]

thetinyevil wrote...

Cullen: We have dominion over mages by divine right.

 Doesn't translate into anything in practice.

Along with a lot of other dialog in game that calls mages property.

 Such as?

Then there were all the executions and tranqilities preformed in Kirkwall

Do you mean that police forces have the right to punish citizens if they violate the law?
Slavery, I tell you!

Also lets not forget what happened at the end if Asunder, all the circles were annulled for no reason.

Other than warmongering? Along with breaking every rule of the Circle that is

Modifié par MisterJB, 13 janvier 2014 - 04:57 .

[Pasquale1234]

MisterJB wrote...

It is worth noting that Evelina's kids, along with many other orphans of Kirkwall, were taken in by the Chantry. They simply ran away.

Actually, Bodahn made arrangements for Evelina's kids.

You can overhear some Sisters wondering why the orphans won't let the Chantry help them.

It may be a reference to kids like Pryce, working for Athenril, and might have reason to avoid the Chantry.

[Lulupab]

thetinyevil wrote...

Cullen: We have dominion over mages by divine right.

Not an exact quate but that is what he said. Along with a lot of other dialog in game that calls mages property. Then there were all the executions and tranqilities preformed in Kirkwall. Also lets not forget what happened at the end if Asunder, all the circles were annulled for no reason.

I think you mean this? I made an extensive play not long ago and I took screenshot of literally everything related to mage-templar war.



Amusingly, a civilian calls it harsh: