1537 réponses à ce sujet

[thetinyevil]

@MasterBJ What rights? What Freedoms? The are allowed none. And you can only use the argument that the are give shelter, fed and clothed for so long. Slaves are fed, given shelter and clothed to. Some are probably given education. Also mages have to contribute to the circle somehow be it reasearch, training other mages or whatever but they have to be useful. If not then they are more then likely found guilty of some "crime" and executed. So they are property. Also if they weren't they would be allowed out of the circle without a whole platoon of soliders waiting for the tiniest of reasons to kill them.

edit: the executions and tranquilities were preformed on mages who had done nothing wrong. The broke no laws other then being born a Mage and so were punished for that crime alone. So if being born is a crime then they are guilty.

Modifié par thetinyevil, 13 janvier 2014 - 05:09 .

[Veruin]

Rassler wrote...

*snip*

Unless I hear that from one of the intiates in training and not some guy who has reason to be biased as he was effectively tortured by them, I'm going to say that's the opinion of one man and not the whole group.  People like Cullen shouldn't be in the order.

Modifié par Veruin, 13 janvier 2014 - 05:08 .

[jamesp81]

I have two plans.

Plan A: Support mage human rights, but only if they stop with the mayhem and consorting with demons.  Take out as many Templars as is necessary to accomplish this.

If the mages don't hold up their end of Plan A, I go to Plan B: Slay them all (Templars and Mages) and let the Maker sort it out.

Modifié par jamesp81, 13 janvier 2014 - 05:07 .

[Veruin]

I see people keep assuming Kirkwall = how all the circles must go.

In other news, all mages are not blood mages and if you dare accuse them of such, you're generalizing to make your side look more favourable.

[Hellion Rex]

Veruin wrote...

Rassler wrote...

*snip*

Unless I hear that from one of the intiates in training and not some guy who has reason to be biased as he was effectively tortured by them, I'm going to say that's the opinion of one man and not the whole group.  People like Cullen shouldn't be in the order.

To be fair though, what is the real difference between what Meredith experienced and what Cullen dealt with? I think both had a good enough reason to be a part of the Order.

[Veruin]

eluvianix wrote...

To be fair though, what is the real difference between what Meredith experienced and what Cullen dealt with? I think both had a good enough reason to be a part of the Order.

I see a difference between losing a family to a mage and joining the order so it doesn't happen to someone else and believing that someone is beneath you by Divine Right.  But, maybe that's just me and I'm missing something.  Of course Cullen probably wasn't like that when he joined...but that doesn't mean if his views change, he should continue being a Templar.

*Edit* I'm sure both of them had good intentions when they first joined.  But once they started to sour, they really should've been let go.

Modifié par Veruin, 13 janvier 2014 - 05:16 .

[MisterJB]

thetinyevil wrote...

@MasterBJ What rights? What Freedoms? The are allowed none.

The freedom of association which is exerted when the mages join a fraternity of their choosing. The right to not be made Tranquil after passing their Harrowing.
That's two right off the top of my head. I could find more if I bothered to take an harder look into the lore. 
 

And you can only use the argument that the are give shelter, fed and clothed for so long. Slaves are fed, given shelter and clothed to. Some are probably given education. Also mages have to contribute to the circle somehow be it reasearch, training other mages or whatever but they have to be useful. If not then they are more then likely found guilty of some "crime" and executed.

Slaves are forced to work. Mages are not forced to do anything beyond the Harrowing and staying in the Circle. What work they do is to sustain the Circle which means that, just like the rest of the world, they work to provide for themselves. That is not slavery.
Even David Gaider himself has said that the Circle is not slavery.

Also if they weren't they would be allowed out of the circle without a whole platoon of soliders waiting for the tiniest of reasons to kill them.

First of all, that's silly. Convicted felons are not property but they aren't allowed to leave the prison whenever they please without an escort.

Second, we have seen mages leave without an escort.
Wynne to help the Warden; Irving and others to save Connor; Ines to find a plant; Bethany to attend a bloody party.

[Hellion Rex]

Veruin wrote...

I see people keep assuming Kirkwall = how all the circles must go.

In other news, all mages are not blood mages and if you dare accuse them of such, you're generalizing to make your side look more favourable.

Completely agree. We have experienced 3 Circles out of what, 14-15 Andrastian Circles? One was on the extremely conservative end, and another was the heart of Templar power. What we have experienced is barely representative of the whole system.

[Lulupab]

Veruin wrote...

Rassler wrote...

*snip*

Unless I hear that from one of the intiates in training and not some guy who has reason to be biased as he was effectively tortured by them, I'm going to say that's the opinion of one man and not the whole group.  People like Cullen shouldn't be in the order.

And this is exactly why I support mages. When I chose the mages I didn't do so because I thought mages were the right party to choose, no they had their own faults. The Templars were the wrong party. To elect someone as biased as Cullen as leader... I'm sure there are many cases similar to this all over Thedas as well like sir Karras who calls mages "robes" and has been known to abuse the mage apprentices.  The Templars have failed, hard. And they need a good spanking.

Yes the mages need to be controlled but the Templars have failed to do it and mages have been systematically abused by (some)Templars for thousand years. If they were more careful with who they chose as their chain of command and reduced the gigantic amount of corruption among their ranks none of this would have happened. Lets be honest here, do you think its unjust that the mages are rebelling atm? 

[Hellion Rex]

Veruin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

To be fair though, what is the real difference between what Meredith experienced and what Cullen dealt with? I think both had a good enough reason to be a part of the Order.

I see a difference between losing a family to a mage and joining the order so it doesn't happen to someone else and believing that someone is beneath you by Divine Right.  But, maybe that's just me and I'm missing something.  Of course Cullen probably wasn't like that when he joined...but that doesn't mean if his views change, he should continue being a Templar.

That being said, regardless of whether or not he stays with the Order, I think he has a lot more perspective than most, being present at 2 of the Annulments in the past decade.

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...
I think you mean this? I made an extensive play not long ago and I took screenshot of literally everything related to mage-templar war.

Amusingly, a civilian calls it harsh:

So, basically, a person who doesn't know the first thing about what it takes to control magic. Where are her credentials?

What exactly is wrong with what Cullen said? What Cullen said was that mages are not people like non-mages; which is true; which means that they can't be treated as if they are; also true.

"Nuclear weapons can't be treated as if they are 9mm guns. They are not the same caliber."


Do you disagree? Should we be selling nuclear weapons in supermarkets?

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...
 Lets be honest here, do you think its unjust that the mages are rebelling atm? 

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

[Pasquale1234]

eluvianix wrote...

To be fair though, what is the real difference between what Meredith experienced and what Cullen dealt with? I think both had a good enough reason to be a part of the Order.

Maybe people with such vested interests or experiences should not be recruited as Templars?  I would expect it would be much more difficult for them to be genuinely objective about their work.

Cullen would have a pretty good case for early retirement / disability resulting from his traumatic experiences at the Fereldan Circle.

[Lulupab]

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...
 Lets be honest here, do you think its unjust that the mages are rebelling atm? 

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

If mages were happy with their living conditions they'd be like:

- I heard a mage demolished the chantry in Kirkwall

- Fool. Did he actualy think we'd start a war over this

But no, they rose up as its their right to do so.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The bombing of the Chantry in Kirkwall did NOT start a war. All it managed to do was increasing tensions between the mages and Templars.

[Hellion Rex]

Rassler wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...
 Lets be honest here, do you think its unjust that the mages are rebelling atm? 

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

If mages were happy with their living conditions they'd be like:

- I heard a mage demolished the chantry in Kirkwall

- Fool. Did he actualy think we'd start a war over this

But no, they rose up as its their right to do so.

You are aware that even Fiona criticized what Anders did, correct?

[Veruin]

Wasn't it Fiona/that mage meeting that started the war?

[Hellion Rex]

Veruin wrote...

Wasn't it Fiona/that mage meeting that started the war?

Indeed. But she still criticized Anders nonetheless.

[Lulupab]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The bombing of the Chantry in Kirkwall did NOT start a war. All it managed to do was increasing tensions between the mages and Templars.

I know I was just referring to the incident as a climax of hostility between mages and Templars. The chantry incident did spark the whole thing but didn't start a fire.

eluvianix wrote...

You are aware that even Fiona criticized what Anders did, correct?

Of course. But I think she knows it was a necessary evil. She did not outright condemn him, she didn't agree with his methods.

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...
 Lets be honest here, do you think its unjust that the mages are rebelling atm? 

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

If mages were happy with their living conditions they'd be like:

- I heard a mage demolished the chantry in Kirkwall

- Fool. Did he actualy think we'd start a war over this

But no, they rose up as its their right to do so.

You mean that people are never satisfied with what they have even if they have it better than 99% of people around them?
Shocking.

[Veruin]

MisterJB wrote...
You mean that people are never satisfied with what they have even if they have it better than 99% of people around them?
Shocking.

#FirstWorldProblems?

[AresKeith]

The fact that Fiona, one of the most extreme Mages I've seen criticized Anders really says alot

[MisterJB]

Veruin wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
You mean that people are never satisfied with what they have even if they have it better than 99% of people around them?
Shocking.

#FirstWorldProblems?

I mean, some mages burn a building to the ground, summon the dead and attack everyone in the vicinity. Meredith executes a few and everyone loses their minds about how "enslaved" mages are.

And then there was that poor bastard in Ferelden who stole two sacks of grain to feed his family who starved after darkspawn slaughtered his sheep and the law dictates he should be hanged and no one says a thing.





I'm sorry, I must be missing something. Who exactly is the opressed social underclass again?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

To be honest, the idea that the annulment in Kirkwall lead to the Mage Rebellion never really made a whole lot of sense to me. The Kirkwall Circle failed for very specific reasons that were unique to Kirkwall. There were many things wrong in Kirkwall that aren't the case in Ferelden or elsewhere and even then it took years for it to become the catastrophe it did.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 janvier 2014 - 05:36 .

[Lord Raijin]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
That is true. It is only in human nature to be protected over the people that you truly care about. This is why the Chantry should have no rights over the mages. They do not belong to them. Slavery is illegal in Ferelden so mages shouldn't be the property of nobody. Hawke's father and Flemeth are examples of mages who can raise a family without chantries assistance.

Mages aren't property.

You're getting too hanged up about the usage of the word "belong" even tough such word is often used without any legal ownership.

The children "belong" to the chantry as much as kids taken by child serives "belong" to the child services.

Wynne: I honestly don't know, Alistair. He was... taken from me. Such births are seldom, as there are ways to prevent it, but it does happen. And any child born to a Circle mage belongs to the Chantry.

According to merriam webster: to be the property of a person or thing —used with to <the book belongs to me>

I'm not getting too hanged up about the usage of the word "belong" I'm just going by what the definintion of "belong" means.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 13 janvier 2014 - 05:42 .