1537 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

eluvianix wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
 .....mages, who already demonstrate severe deficiencies in dealing with emotions and emotional trauma in anything even remotely resembling a healthy manner, hold on to little bundles of emotional turmoil and constant distraction?

And pray tell, what deficiencies do they suffer other than simply being alive? They are not deficient for being unable to deal with emotions. They are just as "deficient" as any non mage in that regard. The only difference is that they can blow stuff up when they get annoyed.

pretty much you explained that to yourself...

[Lord Raijin]

Rassler wrote...

Veruin wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Lets
be honest here, if you need to write a novel so soon after the game
which explains all the events then you know you messed up, and the mess
up was DA2 this time. The game was so obviously rushed, EVERY SINGLE
GAMING SITE gave it a poor rating, that cannot be a coinsidence can it?
The game simply fails to show the why's, the when's and the how many's.
Asunder fully describes everything in detail, no one goes crazy for no
apparent reason and everything is in order. DA2 is chaos

Dragon Age 2 released - March 8th, 2011.

Asunder published - December 1st, 2011.

That seems like a rather short window to write, publish and distribute a book.

Hmm
interesting but since the fact that DA2 was a mess up is not even up
for debate I can draw only one logical conclusion. David Gaider knew
what was goingto happen after DA2 and all the loop holes it left. But I
believe Bioware is hardly responsible as EA forced the rush of DA2. So
David Gaider started writing the novel. Or simply he started writing and
when it was finished it fixed the mistakes of DA2, to some degree that
is.

Asunder would of been Dragon Age 2's trump card as an expansion addition.

DPSSOC wrote...

Have you ever met a parent who never reacted irrationally with regards to their children?  Powerful emotion (any emotion good or bad) compromises rational thought and self control.  Let's say Wynne were allowed to keep her child, and at some point he was sick or injured.  Wynne's worried about him but she still needs to carry on with her work.  So she's doing magic, distracted by worry over her child, and screws up.  Given how we've seen magic screw ups can go how many are you willing to allow for the sake of letting mages, who already demonstrate severe deficiencies in dealing with emotions and emotional trauma in anything even remotely resembling a healthy manner, hold on to little bundles of emotional turmoil and constant distraction?

You know Im not much of a fan of Wynne but this is just an insult to her. Why would you compare her to today's parents who would take their children to the Emergency Room for the common cold? Wynne was NOT in any way like this in Asunder when her son was actually in danger at the near end. It did not effect her magic casting at any way. She did not show any instablity or show severe deficiencies.

Oh and since were discussing powerful emotions. It seems to not affect women mages who gets their menstrual cycles every month. We don't hear them turning into raging abominations.

DPSSOC wrote...

Two separate issues.  The instance of a mage lighting himself on fire was to illustrate 1) that not all dangers of the Circle are results of them not being treated with respect, and 2) with the other examples illustrating that even in simple day to day operation the Circle is dangerous.

By Chantry's law that mage who lit himself on fire is not a mage but a mere apprentice who hasn't undergo the Harrowing yet. He does not have the right to be called a mage, not after he passes the Harrowing.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 14 janvier 2014 - 01:43 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yes wynne was perfectly normal if as normal you can describe turning spirit inside into demon ups she almost killed peoples around her simple because she was worried about guy who she barely knows they should follow her example...  

[dragonflight288]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Given how we've seen magic screw ups can go how many are you willing to allow for the sake of letting mages, who already demonstrate severe deficiencies in dealing with emotions and emotional trauma in anything even remotely resembling a healthy manner, hold on to little bundles of emotional turmoil and constant distraction?

Any theories as to possible reasons for that?

I have a few, and please bear in mind that these are just theories and don't apply to all mages since each mage is their own individual.

1. Mages lack a strong emotional foundation:

I am of the belief that one of the strongest emotional foundations a person can have is their family. However, mages are ripped from their families when discovered by templars as children, anywhere from 6-preteen, which is one of the more critical time-periods during development. And when mages give birth to children inside a Circle, their child is taken away from them immediately upon birth as property of the Chantry (Wynne to Alistair.)

Add in that many mages are taught day in and day out that they are nothing more than a curse in the Maker's eye, again, told from the moment they are children and adolescents, when they're developing emotionally.

It doesn't matter how nice the facilities they live in are if they cannot find emotional stability around them.

2. Mages have no privacy:

Playing the mage origin in Dragon Age, just take a look around the apprentice quarters. It doesn't look like they're separated by gender at all. They all bunk communally, their baths have a single screen, no walls, and no doors. It is really easy for anyone, be they mage or templar, to simply peek or look at people when they are indecent and vulnerable

And that's just the apprentice quarters. Once you pass the Harrowing, you can look around the mages quarters and an npc sas they're preparing your room. This is probably the first time you have any sort of privacy whatsoever. You have a good sized wall, and your bathtub is in the corner so a templar or another mage would have to enter the room completely before they would even know you're there. But again, there is no door, and anyone just walking by could see almost anything you're doing as it's still a wide open area.

Some people have less problems with modesty than others, but most people most certainly are not comfortable having no privacy whatsoever. Add in that the templars make it clear that they're watching all the time, and some mages may get really paranoid, sometimes justifiably so, other times they may blow it out of the water.

3. The Harrowing is kept a complete secret:

All mages know of the Harrowing, that they need to pass it in order to become full-fledged members of the Circle, and supposedly gain immunity from the Right of Tranquility being used on them. But they are deliberately kept in the dark as to what the Harrowing entails. All they know is that you either pass or you're never seen again. The Harrowing codex says that apprentices come up with wild theories, like an apprentice being turned into an animal and fed to them, and the templars do nothing to discourage such rumors.

Under such an environment, the more jittery mages and gossips may come up with the most convoluted and unrealistic theories, but these theories contribute to their own level of fear, which decreases their chances of succeeding. Add in that the Harrowing happens when they are taken from their bed in the middle of the night, and only given the details immediately upon the test being taken, while also being told that if they fail they'll be killed, and that also must be a huge emotional detractor, making mages liable to panic.

Conclusion:

Addin those three things I mentioned, plus the apprentices training that we see in the mage origin, the mage setting himself on fire because his power reacts to his emotions, and the mage unable to hold a shield because of fear, I think it makes sense that any training that would work for mages would be training rooted in emotional strength and building self-esteem...and not societies way of building self-esteem by telling kids (I was one of the kids being told this) that they're the best, but helping them come to terms that they may fail now and then, but if they get back up and keep moving forward then things will turn out all right in the end.

I don't see the current Circle system as one that accomplishes any of its stated goals. The templars have way too much power, and too little oversight, and the systems don't help mages overcome or address the core issues about controlling their powers, known as their emotional stability, and we ultimately have a broken system where some mages become extremists as they see no other way, and some templars feel perfectly justified using and abusing their authority as it is sanctioned by the Maker, and in the end, both sides are screwed up.

[Dr. Doctor]

There isn't really any way that the Templars can contain every mage in Thedas within the Circles, from a manpower/resources perspective.

In the Warhammer universe the Colleges of Magic train wizards in a manner similar to the Circle, once they are proven to be able to resist the lure of Chaos they become licensed practitioners and are free to leave their college.

Granted their counterparts, the Witch Hunters will not hesitate to condemn anyone who practices forbidden magic by burning them and anyone who consorted with them at the stake. There's more freedom but still a pretty good reason not to break the rules.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

There isn't really any way that the Templars can contain every mage in Thedas within the Circles, from a manpower/resources perspective.

In the Warhammer universe the Colleges of Magic train wizards in a manner similar to the Circle, once they are proven to be able to resist the lure of Chaos they become licensed practitioners and are free to leave their college.

Granted their counterparts, the Witch Hunters will not hesitate to condemn anyone who practices forbidden magic by burning them and anyone who consorted with them at the stake. There's more freedom but still a pretty good reason not to break the rules.

Mages in the Empire aren't all equally trusted either. While the Bright Order, Light Order and Golden Order are usually all well recieved, they still aren't fully trusted, and orders like the Grey and Amethyst are not trusted at all, since the areas of magic they deal with are barely understood by commoners.

Also, studying forbidden arts in Warhammer carries a far more terrible price than in DA, though the prize is also far greater. Howeer, few are willing to risk the eternal damnation of their soul for knowledge.

That being said, I think that it is a good idea to do like the College of Magic in the Empire, and actually split up the Circle too into different orders. There already are different magical schools (spirit, primal, entropy and creation), so you could easily establish four specialized colleges of magi, that together would comprise the Circle.
That would also mean that a mage joining one of these colleges would have to specialize into that one school to such a degree to not learn ANY spells from the other schools, so as to master the school to perfection decreasing the chances of failure from his part.

The reason that human mages in the Warhammer universe only ever learn one Lore (the equivalent of a school), is because human lives are simply too short to master more than one Lore, and to not have mastery of the magic you cast in Warhammer is almsot a death sentence, since Daemons will be attracted to you even more than before because you will display weakness.

[DPSSOC]

[quote]Pasquale1234 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Given how we've seen magic screw ups can go how many are you willing to allow for the sake of letting mages, who already demonstrate severe deficiencies in dealing with emotions and emotional trauma in anything even remotely resembling a healthy manner, hold on to little bundles of emotional turmoil and constant distraction?
[/quote]

Any theories as to possible reasons for that?[/quote]

I suspect it's something to do with their connection to the Fade.  I suspect regular contact with a realm of pure thought and emotion erodes the barriers most people develop against knee jerk responses thus making mages more prone to emotional snaps.  You can't blame it all on the Templars because we've seen apostates crack too.  Huon didn't snap in the Circle he cracked the minute he was caught.

[quote]eluvianix wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
 .....mages, who already demonstrate severe deficiencies in dealing with emotions and emotional trauma in anything even remotely resembling a healthy manner, hold on to little bundles of emotional turmoil and constant distraction?
[/quote]

And pray tell, what deficiencies do they suffer other than simply being alive?[/quote]
 
Not dealing with emotions very well.

[quote]eluvianix wrote...
They are not deficient for being unable to deal with emotions. They are just as "deficient" as any non mage in that regard.[/quote]
 
Name the non-mages who went on homicidal rampages because they couldn't deal with an emotional trauma.

I'll name some mages; Connor, Quentin, Huon, Anders.  That's off the top of my head.

[quote]eluvianix wrote...
The only difference is that they can blow stuff up when they get annoyed.[/quote]

Which, when combined with a demonstrated inability to deal with emotional stress, is an excellent reason not to throw infants into the mix wouldn't you agree?

[quote]Lord Raijin wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Have you ever met a parent who never reacted irrationally with regards to their children?  Powerful emotion (any emotion good or bad) compromises rational thought and self control.  Let's say Wynne were allowed to keep her child, and at some point he was sick or injured.  Wynne's worried about him but she still needs to carry on with her work.  So she's doing magic, distracted by worry over her child, and screws up.  Given how we've seen magic screw ups can go how many are you willing to allow for the sake of letting mages, who already demonstrate severe deficiencies in dealing with emotions and emotional trauma in anything even remotely resembling a healthy manner, hold on to little bundles of emotional turmoil and constant distraction?[/quote]

You know Im not much of a fan of Wynne but this is just an insult to her. Why would you compare her to today's parents who would take their children to the Emergency Room for the common cold? Wynne was NOT in any way like this in Asunder when her son was actually in danger at the near end. It did not effect her magic casting at any way. She did not show any instablity or show severe deficiencies.[/quote]
 
Yes, decades after the fact Wynne was fine when her child (does she know at this point?) was a grown man.  I'm sure most mages would be ok once their children grow up, but how Wynne responded to her grown son being in danger is not how she would react to her 5-8 year old son being in danger.

Parents have always been overly protective of their children, especially the very young, and we will continue to be for a long time now.  In the dark ages people didn't rush their children to the nearest healer over a sniffle because odds were they were days away.

[quote]Lord Raijin wrote...
Oh and since were discussing powerful emotions. It seems to not affect women mages who gets their menstrual cycles every month. We don't hear them turning into raging abominations.[/quote]

Abominations are not my concern here.  We don't have records of how many mages mess up spells, or injure people by lashing out, when that time of the month rolls around because of emotional distress, we don't have records of if that's even a thing in Thedas (I imagine it would be but the point stands).  Furthermore PMS typically doesn't result in clinical depression.

[quote]Lord Raijin wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Two separate issues.  The instance of a mage lighting himself on fire was to illustrate 1) that not all dangers of the Circle are results of them not being treated with respect, and 2) with the other examples illustrating that even in simple day to day operation the Circle is dangerous.[/quote]

By Chantry's law that mage who lit himself on fire is not a mage but a mere apprentice who hasn't undergo the Harrowing yet. He does not have the right to be called a mage, not after he passes the Harrowing.
[/quote]

He's still practicing magic in the Circle, it still demonstrates that there are very real dangers there that should be considered when arguing whether or not it's a good environment to be raising infants.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 14 janvier 2014 - 03:58 .

[Rotward]

Hmm, lets suggest something new. Everyone bangs, and the massive orgy causes the desire demons to explode, destroying the fade and rendering mages safe from possession.

[Captain Nimbaud]

Rotward wrote...

Hmm, lets suggest something new. Everyone bangs, and the massive orgy causes the desire demons to explode, destroying the fade and rendering mages safe from possession.

Or...biscuits and a cup of tea? Though I'm guessing the templars would then want to dictate how the mages make their tea and the mages would want complete freedom to make as much tea with as many sugars as they'd like. Thus starting a new war...

There's just no pleasing some people *sigh*

Modifié par Captain Nimbaud, 14 janvier 2014 - 04:31 .

[Dr. Doctor]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That being said, I think that it is a good idea to do like the College of Magic in the Empire, and actually split up the Circle too into different orders. There already are different magical schools (spirit, primal, entropy and creation), so you could easily establish four specialized colleges of magi, that together would comprise the Circle.
That would also mean that a mage joining one of these colleges would have to specialize into that one school to such a degree to not learn ANY spells from the other schools, so as to master the school to perfection decreasing the chances of failure from his part.

Separating into multiple Schools of Magic would also make enforcement a tad easier. A rogue Primal or Entropy mage would be pretty easy to track down considering that their spells are pretty overt. Elementary magical theory training, then some manner of aptitude test to determine the school the apprentice trains in, then the Harrowing as proof of mastery at the end.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
1. Mages lack a strong emotional foundation:

I am of the belief that one of the strongest emotional foundations a person can have is their family. However, mages are ripped from their families when discovered by templars as children, anywhere from 6-preteen, which is one of the more critical time-periods during development. And when mages give birth to children inside a Circle, their child is taken away from them immediately upon birth as property of the Chantry (Wynne to Alistair.)

Family is more than just a biological connection.
Think of a Circle as one big family. Not connected by blood, but by everything else.
The mages in the circle live together their whole lives, share the same interests, talk about the same stuff. They essentialy are one big family.

Add in that many mages are taught day in and day out that they are nothing more than a curse in the Maker's eye, again, told from the moment they are children and adolescents, when they're developing emotionally.

Wrong. Stop spreading your propaganda.

It doesn't matter how nice the facilities they live in are if they cannot find emotional stability around them.

Bollocks

2. Mages have no privacy:

Playing the mage origin in Dragon Age, just take a look around the apprentice quarters. It doesn't look like they're separated by gender at all. They all bunk communally, their baths have a single screen, no walls, and no doors. It is really easy for anyone, be they mage or templar, to simply peek or look at people when they are indecent and vulnerable

Bunks, like in the military. I see no problem with that, given that children often share rooms. This would be especially common in the middle ages, where entire families would be in one room.

So horrifing to you today -  the norm back in the day.

And you said it yourself, after the harrowing they get their own quarters.

And they do have doors.

3. The Harrowing is kept a complete secret:

For a reason. Telling about it would undermine the whole point of the Harrowing.

It's like telling someone to act natural while pointing at the cammera, and telling him his every movement is track and his behavior will be judged. He won't be acting natural.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Add in that many mages are taught day in and day out that they are nothing more than a curse in the Maker's eye, again, told from the moment they are children and adolescents, when they're developing emotionally.

Wrong. Stop spreading your propaganda.

To be fair, that does seem to be a reasonable conclusion to draw from Keili's serious mental problems (she seems to think she's nothing more than a curse in the Maker's eye), and that note that the dog can find at the Circle docks. (Which makes clear that other Andrastians view mages much the same way.) I suppose it's insufficient evidence to determine that for sure, but it points in that direction.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 janvier 2014 - 01:28 .

[MisterJB]

edit: Nevermind.

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 janvier 2014 - 02:14 .

[dragonflight288]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
1. Mages lack a strong emotional foundation:

I am of the belief that one of the strongest emotional foundations a person can have is their family. However, mages are ripped from their families when discovered by templars as children, anywhere from 6-preteen, which is one of the more critical time-periods during development. And when mages give birth to children inside a Circle, their child is taken away from them immediately upon birth as property of the Chantry (Wynne to Alistair.)[/quote]

Family is more than just a biological connection.
Think of a Circle as one big family. Not connected by blood, but by everything else.
The mages in the circle live together their whole lives, share the same interests, talk about the same stuff. They essentialy are one big family.[/quote]

While family can easily be more than just blood, try telling that to the six year old who had just been torn from his mothers arms. (S)he's not going to listen. All they know is that they've been taken away from their family. And that can be traumatizing, especially during such a critical period of emotional development. 

It's easy to step back and say the circle can be their new family, but that does nothing to take into account what they're feeling. 

I think a good example is Aneirin. Wynne pushed him, thought he was stubborn and didn't give him what he needed, time to adjust, time to get over the expectations of prejudice simply because he was an elf, time to help him with his emotional needs. She calls it her only and greatest regret that she couldn't help him as she wanted to, and spent years thinking he was dead. He was 14 years old but while in the Circle he lacked any connection to the mages there. He didn't think of them as family. However, after he escaped, got run through by templars, and then taken in by a Dalish clan, he turned out all right and became a healer, living peacefully in the forest, and is at peace with himself and the world, far more than most Circle mages we meet in-game.

[quote][quote]
Add in that many mages are taught day in and day out that they are nothing more than a curse in the Maker's eye, again, told from the moment they are children and adolescents, when they're developing emotionally.[/quote]

Wrong. Stop spreading your propaganda.[/quote]

There is a lot of circumstantial evidence that supports this. Keili's mental state, the note that can be found, heck, if you go into the chapel in Awakening (before taking the book for the orfans *snicker*) the Revered Mother is preaching against mages. The Revered Mother in Redcliff has to reassure a human mage that she won't raise a mob against him. Wynne says that some mages don't even make it to the Circle's because once they're discovered an angry mob of villagers gather together and kill him/her as blame for some misfortune or another because they see magic as a curse.

It's quite deeply embetted in Andrastian society. If you wish to accuse me of spreading propaganda, you'll have to take away all such instances in the game and books.

And like I said, my theories won't apply to every mage as each and every one is an individual with different personalities and needs, but simply dismissing what I say and calling it propaganda does nothing unless you can factually refute what I say. 

So instead of saying 'stop spreading propaganda,' use in-game evidence or evidence from the books that completely dismiss what I say on a cultural and sociological level. And I can tell you right now, you won't be able to to do it.

[quote][quote]
It doesn't matter how nice the facilities they live in are if they cannot find emotional stability around them.[/quote]

Bollocks[/quote]

Nice rebuttal. Full of logic and evidence. 

[quote][quote]2. Mages have no privacy:

Playing the mage origin in Dragon Age, just take a look around the apprentice quarters. It doesn't look like they're separated by gender at all. They all bunk communally, their baths have a single screen, no walls, and no doors. It is really easy for anyone, be they mage or templar, to simply peek or look at people when they are indecent and vulnerable[/quote]

Bunks, like in the military. I see no problem with that, given that children often share rooms. This would be especially common in the middle ages, where entire families would be in one room.

So horrifing to you today -  the norm back in the day.

And you said it yourself, after the harrowing they get their own quarters.

And they do have doors.[/quote]

No they don't. I just played it today. Your mage quarters have walls, but a very large open area to enter in without a door. There IS  door to enter the area, and there are four bedrooms within the single room, but not a single one of them have a door.

[quote][quote]
3. The Harrowing is kept a complete secret:[/quote]

For a reason. Telling about it would undermine the whole point of the Harrowing.

It's like telling someone to act natural while pointing at the cammera, and telling him his every movement is track and his behavior will be judged. He won't be acting natural.
[/quote][/quote]

I wasn't saying there wasn't a reason for it, but pointing out that it adds to the level of fear and paranoia, and the fact that the templars don't do anything to refute the more wild gossip that spreads, well the fully-trained mages don't either. 

The point I'm making overrall is that despite how nice the facilities are at the Circle, it's not an environment that fosters and promotes emotional health and stability. 

Modifié par dragonflight288, 14 janvier 2014 - 03:44 .

[Lord Raijin]

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

Yes, decades after the fact Wynne was fine when her child (does she know at this point?) was a grown man.  I'm sure most mages would be ok once their children grow up, but how Wynne responded to her grown son being in danger is not how she would react to her 5-8 year old son being in danger.

Parents have always been overly protective of their children, especially the very young, and we will continue to be for a long time now.  In the dark ages people didn't rush their children to the nearest healer over a sniffle because odds were they were days away. [/quote]


[quote]Lord Raijin wrote...
Oh and since were discussing powerful emotions. It seems to not affect women mages who gets their menstrual cycles every month. We don't hear them turning into raging abominations.[/quote]

Abominations are not my concern here.  We don't have records of how many mages mess up spells, or injure people by lashing out, when that time of the month rolls around because of emotional distress, we don't have records of if that's even a thing in Thedas (I imagine it would be but the point stands).  Furthermore PMS typically doesn't result in clinical depression.

[quote]Lord Raijin wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Two separate issues.  The instance of a mage lighting himself on fire was to illustrate 1) that not all dangers of the Circle are results of them not being treated with respect, and 2) with the other examples illustrating that even in simple day to day operation the Circle is dangerous.[/quote]

By Chantry's law that mage who lit himself on fire is not a mage but a mere apprentice who hasn't undergo the Harrowing yet. He does not have the right to be called a mage, not after he passes the Harrowing.
[/quote]

He's still practicing magic in the Circle, it still demonstrates that there are very real dangers there that should be considered when arguing whether or not it's a good environment to be raising infants.[/quote]

So by your logic nobody should have the right to bond with their
children because they become overly protective over them. Not once have I
read anywhere in the Dragon Age lore indicating that the protective
nature of a mage parent puts them at high risk of hurting themselves,
i.e. setting themselves on fire or becoming a danger to everyone around
them by turning into an abomination.

PMS causes more than just clinic depression.

You have these symptoms  that a woman can generally get while their PMSing.

• anger and irritability
• anxiety
• tension
• depression
• crying
• oversensitivity
• exaggerated mood swings.

Shall we enforce involuntary total abdominal hysterectomy to all mages of the circle to prevent them from getting a period every month?

At the end I do not agree with your logic nor support it at all. Taking away a newborn baby from a Circle mage is very inhumane and barbaric. I find it repulsive.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 14 janvier 2014 - 05:12 .

[Pasquale1234]

First, I'd like to say that I don't necessarily agree with this statement:

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Given how we've seen magic screw ups can go how many are you willing to allow for the sake of letting mages, who already
demonstrate severe deficiencies in dealing with emotions and emotional
trauma in anything even remotely resembling a healthy manner, hold on to little bundles of emotional turmoil and constant distraction?
[/quote]

... but I thought it might be interesting to discuss it.

dragonflight288 wrote...
<... a thoughtful response...>
[/quote]

Being ripped from your family at an early age and taught that you are cursed by the Maker is hardly conducive to healthy emotional development.  Some (most?) grow up feeling scorned and outcast by their own families.  Clicking on the mages waiting with Wynne during the Broken Circle quest was pretty illuminating, as was Anders' comment that most  mage deaths he has witnessed have been from suicide.

I don't know what to think about the privacy issues you've raised.  There are quite a few people who grow up with little to no privacy - how much it impacts one's development is an unknown, and likely varies with individuals.  Also - the only Circle we have been inside is Fereldan's and due to constraints on budget, level design, and programming it is difficult to tell how much of it is really an accurate reflection of their living conditions.

And yes, growing up with the knowledge that you will at some point be required to face some mystery event that you may not survive would instill paranoia and trepidation in anyone.

Add to that the fact that there are adults around you who have permission to kill or brand you, and you have an environment more likely to spawn a suicide bomber than an emotionally healthy, functional adult.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

I
suspect it's something to do with their connection to the Fade. 
I suspect regular contact with a realm of pure thought and emotion
erodes the barriers most people develop against knee jerk responses thus
making mages more prone to emotional snaps.  You can't blame it all on
the Templars because we've seen apostates crack too.  Huon didn't snap
in the Circle he cracked the minute he was caught.
[/quote]

There are some folks in our world who have contact with otherworldly realms - mystics, mediums, shamans, yogis, etc. - and, if anything, it makes them more peaceful, more stable, not less so.  There is also the fact that everyone enters the fade when they are asleep; the only difference with mages is that they are able to connect with it while conscious.

Using Huon as an example does not support your case.  He clearly had a plan when he escaped the Circle.

Referencing Apostates is questionable, too.  While it is true that they have not directly experienced Circle / Templar control, they have certainly experienced it indirectly - they are constantly on the run and hiding, knowing that they may be summarily executed if they are ever captured.  Also, I'm not quite sure what you mean by apostates cracking - the only ones I've seen do so were under attack.  Not an unexpected response to threat.

[Rotward]

I'm not going to bother quoting the half a page posts in this thread, but someone brought up emotional control. Which is perfectly valid! Mages should definitely receive training in remaining calm in high stress situations, and general emotional control. As far as I can tell, the circle doesn't offer this, and it really ought to.

That said, we've only met mages that are prisoners or fugitives. Mages might not have worse emotional control, but rather, be placed in higher stress situations regularly. So perhaps reducing the stress of their day to day lives, like not living under constant threat of death, and training mages in self control would benefit everyone.

[Pasquale1234]

Rotward wrote...

I'm not going to bother quoting the half a page posts in this thread, but someone brought up emotional control. Which is perfectly valid! Mages should definitely receive training in remaining calm in high stress situations, and general emotional control. As far as I can tell, the circle doesn't offer this, and it really ought to.

That said, we've only met mages that are prisoners or fugitives. Mages might not have worse emotional control, but rather, be placed in higher stress situations regularly. So perhaps reducing the stress of their day to day lives, like not living under constant threat of death, and training mages in self control would benefit everyone.

I agree - but I think that better treatment overall would go a long, long way toward giving them better emotional stability, and strengthen their resolve in dealing with demons.  Weak mages are much more likely to become abominations.

It is not just about morality, bleeding heart stuff, or namby-pamby coddling.  There is a purely pragmatic case for better treatment of mages, as it would make everyone safer overall.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 14 janvier 2014 - 05:52 .

[TK514]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Add in that many mages are taught day in and day out that they are nothing more than a curse in the Maker's eye, again, told from the moment they are children and adolescents, when they're developing emotionally.

i'd be able to give this a moment's thought before dismissing it if you could point to any other Mage in two games, four(?) DLC, one expansion, three novels, and two comics who called themselves a Curse in the Maker's sight aside from the mentally unstable girl who then went into hysterics after watching her home turn into a demon infested hellhole that killed most of her friends.  The letter Dog digs up says nothing of being cursed.  It even illustrates that not everyone, even in Andrastrian society, wishes to disown their Mage relations.  It also directly shows that Mages are not stripped of all familial connections as a matter of Chantry or Circle policy. (The real tragedy of this letter is that the Mage insinuates that she is aware of Uldred's plans and thus probably ends up dead as one of his co-conspirators, betraying the trust of the one family member who didn't abandon her and validating her parents' views.)

The Chant of Light calls magic a Gift of the Maker, not a curse, and when someone like Gregoire uses the word,mhe's referring to the burden Mage's bear by being at risk of possession every moment of their lives.

[dragonflight288]

The Chant of Light calls magic a Gift of the Maker, not a curse, and when someone like Gregoire uses the word,mhe's referring to the burden Mage's bear by being at risk of possession every moment of their lives.

I'm not debating or refuting what the Chant of Light teaches, or what Gregoire said, but what society, and many templars believe. And those in turn will influence what mages believe about magic before they start showing signs of magical sensitivity and realize they are mages.

Let me give you a few more examples.

Ser Perth in Redcliff doesn't wan any magical amulets at all that would be useful, because he believes magic is a curse in and of itself, but he'll happy take worthless trinkets bearing the chantry's symbol because 'they are holy and blessed by the Maker,' despite being told straight out by the Revered Mother she can't provide him the physical shield he seeks.

Ser Bryant, while a very cool templar who honestly cares more about protecting the refugees than turning in mages like Morrigan and possibly the Warden, specifically says magic is a curse...or more specifically he says "We have more than just swords to battle cursed magics."

Regardless of magic being both a gift and a curse, most of Andrastian society seems to see it as a curse more than a gift, and this in turn is reflected in the mages own mindset and what they're being told day in an day out, whether they're apostates in hiding and being told by society, or in the Circle and some of the more extreme templars are staring at them non-stop.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 14 janvier 2014 - 06:23 .

[MisterJB]

Actually, an obligatory vasectomy to Circle mages wouldn't be a bad idea. It would prevent accidental babies which would remove one of the reasons romantic attachments are discouraged.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

Actually, an obligatory vasectomy to Circle mages wouldn't be a bad idea. It would prevent accidental babies which would remove one of the reasons romantic attachments are discouraged.

Good luck convincing the Circles that its a good idea. Especially now that they've declared Independence.

[thetinyevil]

MisterJB wrote...

Actually, an obligatory vasectomy to Circle mages wouldn't be a bad idea. It would prevent accidental babies which would remove one of the reasons romantic attachments are discouraged.

Yeah not enough is taken from mages lets take more. What's next, castration?

[MisterJB]

The rebellion does hamper most plans regarding the management of the Circles, not just my tiny suggestion. Therefore, I don't see why I was singled out.

I'm just saying, accidental babies are one of the reason romantic attachment between Circle mages are discouraged; although the strong emotions that come with it are probably dangerous when experienced by mages; and obligatory vasectomies would solve that.
It's not like that would place mages in the endangered species list since their numbers are replenished by toddlers born to normal couples.