1537 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Yes, and yes, that is exactly what it means. Space Marines are physcally incapable of experiencing fear.
And the Inquisition of the Imperium of Man is the final authority in the Imperium, so she has the authority to declare a Space Marine Chapter heretical. However any Inquisitor has to be extremely careful when doing so, since the Space Marines are the ultimate fighting force in the galaxy, and other Inquisitors might not agree, resulting in the Inquisitors own excommunication and summary execution.

[Lulupab]

Of course, but Adrastia is quite careful I believe as she was the only person holding back total destruction of a whole planets in a system. My whole point was Adrasta > Any space marine. She is just so badass, perfect display of character and respect. And she is BALD!

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...
For example fanatics and damaged people liked cullen and meredith get promoted!

Say the pot to the kettle.
Adrian is a First Enchanter and she's a fanatic. Fiona is Grand Enchanter and she is damaged.

[Lulupab]

And guess who promote someone as first enchanter. Templar puppets.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Actually the Circle has full control themselves over who becomes First Enchanter.

[Lulupab]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Actually the Circle has full control themselves over who becomes First Enchanter.

So WHO decides? I'm guessing if knight commander is not OK with the choice he/she can dismiss the decision which was my point.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Senior Enchanters votes on who shall become First Enchanter. The Knight-Commanders can recommend a candidate, but they cannot veto or block an election of a First Enchanter they don't like.

For instance do you really believe that Meredith chose Orsino?

[Lulupab]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Senior Enchanters votes on who shall become First Enchanter. The Knight-Commanders can recommend a candidate, but they cannot veto or block an election of a First Enchanter they don't like.

For instance do you really believe that Meredith chose Orsino?

I believe Orsino was first enchanter before Meredith became knight-commander but I might be wrong though. Even if its the case and mages chose wrong people for enchanters it still shows how the circle system is a failure. It needs a lot of fixing on both sides but since Templars are the ones enforcing the law most of the blame is theirs. They need a good spanking.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Templars only enforce Chantry law. They do not enforce the internal Circle rules. That is for the Circle itself to figure out. Of course often these rules and Chantry law weave together, which facilitate cooperation between the Templars and the Circle, but the election of First Enchanter is not one of those instances.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rassler wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Space Marines know no fear.

They fear the ordo malleus and the Inquisition and the person responsible for the Inquisition. Inquisitor Adrastia. Her word can overthrow any law if she sees fit. She can stop death of millions or order it to happen. Their solution is simple, kill them all, innocent or guilty, human or otherwise, if it stops the corruption they all must die. Just because Space marines are genetecially engineered to not know fear doesn't mean they are not afraid of Inquisition.

You did play all warhammer games right? Adrastia is op and she is an Inquisitor!

The Inquisition isn't a monolithic entity, nor is it as powerfull as you may believe (well, it IS ,but..not always).

Even the =I= fears tangling with Space Marines, especially older chapters.

Inquisitor inquisiting  about the Dark Angels? Inquisitor dissapers under mysterous circumstances.
Inquisitor thinks to order Space Wolves around? Inquisitor gets killed by Space Wolves.

An established, high-ranking inquisitor in good standing with many allies can get away with going agaisnt a young SM chapter.
But agaisnt a old, first/second founding one? Few would ever dare.

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...
Even if its the case and mages chose wrong people for enchanters it still shows how the circle system is a failure. It needs a lot of fixing on both sides but since Templars are the ones enforcing the law most of the blame is theirs. They need a good spanking.

Had the Templars chosen the First Enchanters, you'd claim they'd only pick mages who would be submissive and compliant.
But now you know that the Order allows the mages to choose who will represent them and you still blame it on the Templars if they pick the wrong people?

C'mon, this is getting absolutely ridiculous.

[Veruin]

MisterJB wrote...

I miss your cuddly polarbear avatar.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Senior Enchanters votes on who shall become First Enchanter. The Knight-Commanders can recommend a candidate, but they cannot veto or block an election of a First Enchanter they don't like.

For instance do you really believe that Meredith chose Orsino?

Nope. Orsino's own codex says he got the job because no one else wanted it.

Anywho, I know the most perfect, and ridiculous person to help keep both mages and templars n order. 

If either mages or templars start acting out of turn, we'll send Oghren chasing after them with a battleaxe and no pants. 

[Lulupab]

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Even if its the case and mages chose wrong people for enchanters it still shows how the circle system is a failure. It needs a lot of fixing on both sides but since Templars are the ones enforcing the law most of the blame is theirs. They need a good spanking.

Had the Templars chosen the First Enchanters, you'd claim they'd only pick mages who would be submissive and compliant.
But now you know that the Order allows the mages to choose who will represent them and you still blame it on the Templars if they pick the wrong people?

C'mon, this is getting absolutely ridiculous.

The important thing is a first enchanter does not have half the authority a knight-commander has. A first enchanter deals with day to day issues regarding magic for example what is dangerous or not. A knight-commander is the supreme ruler of the circle and can order annulment of the circle. This causes corupption among Templars ranks to be much more destructive than mages.

[Veruin]

dragonflight288 wrote...
If either mages or templars start acting out of turn, we'll send Oghren chasing after them with a battleaxe and no pants. 

Relevant.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rassler wrote...
The important thing is a first enchanter does not have half the authority a knight-commander has. A first enchanter deals with day to day issues regarding magic for example what is dangerous or not. A knight-commander is the supreme ruler of the circle and can order annulment of the circle. This causes corupption among Templars ranks to be much more destructive than mages.

That is not at all how the power relationship looks in the Circle...

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 15 janvier 2014 - 02:14 .

[dragonflight288]

Rassler wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Even if its the case and mages chose wrong people for enchanters it still shows how the circle system is a failure. It needs a lot of fixing on both sides but since Templars are the ones enforcing the law most of the blame is theirs. They need a good spanking.

Had the Templars chosen the First Enchanters, you'd claim they'd only pick mages who would be submissive and compliant.
But now you know that the Order allows the mages to choose who will represent them and you still blame it on the Templars if they pick the wrong people?

C'mon, this is getting absolutely ridiculous.

The important thing is a first enchanter does not have half the authority a knight-commander has. A first enchanter deals with day to day issues regarding magic for example what is dangerous or not. A knight-commander is the supreme ruler of the circle and can order annulment of the circle. This causes corupption among Templars ranks to be much more destructive than mages.

This is not completely true. It may seem to be true in practice in that a Knight-Commander has far more authority in the running of the Circle than the First Enchanter, but it isn't really true on the annulment.

The Knight Commander can request it, but the Grand Cleric or the Divine have to approve it before it can be carried out, and this is directly from the Annulment codex. 

Meredith's Annulment was legal only under the most barebone technicalities because Elthina was dead.

[Br3admax]

Rassler wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Even if its the case and mages chose wrong people for enchanters it still shows how the circle system is a failure. It needs a lot of fixing on both sides but since Templars are the ones enforcing the law most of the blame is theirs. They need a good spanking.

Had the Templars chosen the First Enchanters, you'd claim they'd only pick mages who would be submissive and compliant.
But now you know that the Order allows the mages to choose who will represent them and you still blame it on the Templars if they pick the wrong people?

C'mon, this is getting absolutely ridiculous.

The important thing is a first enchanter does not have half the authority a knight-commander has.

Stopped reading after this. Too many fallacies for a thousand Latin speakers to understand.

A first enchanter deals with day to day issues regarding magic for example what is dangerous or not. A knight-commander is the supreme ruler of the circle and can order annulment of the circle.

What does this have to do with anything? It's not even true. Grand Cleric has all of the powers you just stated, and they don't live in the Circle. 

This causes corupption among Templars ranks to be much more destructive than mages.

No it doesn't. This reductio ad absurdum, ad hominem, post hoc ergo propter hoc is disgusting. How can you force so many different fallacies into three sentences? 

Modifié par Br3ad, 15 janvier 2014 - 02:23 .

[TK514]

dragonflight288 wrote...

This is not completely true. It may seem to be true in practice in that a Knight-Commander has far more authority in the running of the Circle than the First Enchanter, but it isn't really true on the annulment.

The Knight Commander can request it, but the Grand Cleric or the Divine have to approve it before it can be carried out, and this is directly from the Annulment codex. 

Meredith's Annulment was legal only under the most barebone technicalities because Elthina was dead.

Shh.  He doesn't want to hear the hard truth that Anders, by killing Elthinia, is directly responsible or the Annulment of the Kirkwall Circle.

[The Elder King]

@Rassler: other than you're wrong about the Annulment, the First Enchanter has a lot more power than you think. The KC isn't the supreme ruler of the Circle. He has full power only over his/her templars, not mages.
Granted, in Kirkwall Meredith had more power than Gregoir, by that's not the norm. And even in Kirkwall Meredith couldn't access the mages's private quarters without the permission of Orsino.

[ianvillan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Rassler wrote...
The important thing is a first enchanter does not have half the authority a knight-commander has. A first enchanter deals with day to day issues regarding magic for example what is dangerous or not. A knight-commander is the supreme ruler of the circle and can order annulment of the circle. This causes corupption among Templars ranks to be much more destructive than mages.

That is not at all how the power relationship looks in the Circle...

In DAO mage origin if you tell Irvine about Jowan he asks you to follow him to see what he was doing and get evidence to prove the Chantry woman's involvement or the Templars would not believe them.

After you come back up to the tower and Irvine and Gregoir are there you are ordered to be executed and no matter what Irvine says he has no power to stop it.

It was only Duncan using the right of conscription that saved your life.  The first Enchanters have no power in the Circles and the Knight-Commander can overrule and kill any mage no matter what the First Enchanter says.

[EmperorSahlertz]

ianvillan wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Rassler wrote...
The important thing is a first enchanter does not have half the authority a knight-commander has. A first enchanter deals with day to day issues regarding magic for example what is dangerous or not. A knight-commander is the supreme ruler of the circle and can order annulment of the circle. This causes corupption among Templars ranks to be much more destructive than mages.

That is not at all how the power relationship looks in the Circle...

In DAO mage origin if you tell Irvine about Jowan he asks you to follow him to see what he was doing and get evidence to prove the Chantry woman's involvement or the Templars would not believe them.

After you come back up to the tower and Irvine and Gregoir are there you are ordered to be executed and no matter what Irvine says he has no power to stop it.

It was only Duncan using the right of conscription that saved your life.  The first Enchanters have no power in the Circles and the Knight-Commander can overrule and kill any mage no matter what the First Enchanter says.

The Circle holds no juridstiction over the Chantry, and you had just aided and abetted a Blood Mage, so yes, you were sentenced to death.
Had Irving involed Greagoir in his little plot, then you probably wouldn't have beens entenced to death, but then Irving wouldn't have been able to take make sure a Chantry sister's life was ruined either.

[The Baconer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Had Irving involed Greagoir in his little plot, then you probably wouldn't have beens entenced to death, but then Irving wouldn't have been able to take make sure a Chantry sister's life was ruined either.

...Really?

[Hellion Rex]

The Baconer wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Had Irving involed Greagoir in his little plot, then you probably wouldn't have beens entenced to death, but then Irving wouldn't have been able to take make sure a Chantry sister's life was ruined either.

...Really?

Yeah, both Irving and Greagoir were being a tad vindictive to each other. If Jowan had to go down, Irving was going to make damn sure that the Chantry initiate would go down in flames too.

[TK514]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Circle holds no juridstiction over the Chantry, and you had just aided and abetted a Blood Mage, so yes, you were sentenced to death.
Had Irving involed Greagoir in his little plot, then you probably wouldn't have beens entenced to death, but then Irving wouldn't have been able to take make sure a Chantry sister's life was ruined either.

this is pretty much a textbook example of a Templar doing exactly what he was supposed to do.  Templars are responsible for Circle security and protecting Mages from themselves and others.  You had just run roughshod all over Circle security, and, having obviously consorted with a demonstrated Blood Mage, there was no way for anyone present to know if you weren't also a Blood Mage, or possessed.  Executing you was the sad but prudent and inevitable response to Jowan's use of Blood Magic.  Just one more example of Jowan's thinking only of himself and not considering how his actions would impact others.

and, as much as I like Irving, the man must be part Orlesian.  He was willing to sacrifice his most promising student to score points in the Game he was playing.  I'm sure he hoped that he could talk Gregoire out of anything irrevocably final, but as canny as he's supposed to be, he had to know that your death was a possibility, and he went through with it anyway.

Modifié par TK514, 15 janvier 2014 - 04:10 .