1537 réponses à ce sujet

[Veruin]

ianvillan wrote...
In DAO mage origin if you tell Irvine about Jowan he asks you to follow him to see what he was doing and get evidence to prove the Chantry woman's involvement or the Templars would not believe them.

Since Jowan was a blood mage, they probably would've seen it as "Blood magic mind domination"  hence why she needed to be caught him the act.

"And it appears the sister is fully aware of her actions and not a thrall of the blood mage.  It is as you say Irving.  The initiate has betrayed us."

[Pasquale1234]

hhh89 wrote...

@Rassler: other than you're wrong about the Annulment, the First Enchanter has a lot more power than you think. The KC isn't the supreme ruler of the Circle. He has full power only over his/her templars, not mages.
Granted, in Kirkwall Meredith had more power than Gregoir, by that's not the norm. And even in Kirkwall Meredith couldn't access the mages's private quarters without the permission of Orsino.

I see your point, but there is still one key imbalance between them:  Templars can kill or tranquil mages; mages have no similar power to legally order the death or expulsion of a templar.  When you can't get a sadist like Ser Alrik removed from his role, any other power you might have over your environment seems relatively meaningless.

[Hellion Rex]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@Rassler: other than you're wrong about the Annulment, the First Enchanter has a lot more power than you think. The KC isn't the supreme ruler of the Circle. He has full power only over his/her templars, not mages.
Granted, in Kirkwall Meredith had more power than Gregoir, by that's not the norm. And even in Kirkwall Meredith couldn't access the mages's private quarters without the permission of Orsino.

I see your point, but there is still one key imbalance between them:  Templars can kill or tranquil mages; mages have no similar power to legally order the death or expulsion of a templar.  When you can't get a sadist like Ser Alrik removed from his role, any other power you might have over your environment seems relatively meaningless.

And even though Meredith shot him down, he still had enough authority to gather some helpers for his "solution".

[Lotion Soronarr]

Pasquale1234 wrote...
I see your point, but there is still one key imbalance between them:  Templars can kill or tranquil mages; mages have no similar power to legally order the death or expulsion of a templar.  When you can't get a sadist like Ser Alrik removed from his role, any other power you might have over your environment seems relatively meaningless.

Of course not. No qurantene measure would work.

That's not to say that mages have no recourse. They didn't have much in Kirkwall, but in general, they do.

They can gather evidence and present it to the FE, KC or Grand Cleric.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Templars cannot Tranquil mages without the authorization to do so from the First Enchanter, and then it can only be done to Apprentices who havn't passed their Harrowing, or known criminal mages.

What Alrik did was illegal, and without the knowledge of either Meredith or Orsino.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 15 janvier 2014 - 04:57 .

[The Elder King]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I see your point, but there is still one key imbalance between them:  Templars can kill or tranquil mages; mages have no similar power to legally order the death or expulsion of a templar.  When you can't get a sadist like Ser Alrik removed from his role, any other power you might have over your environment seems relatively meaningless.

I didn't say the system is perfectly balanced. I just meant that the KC doesn't have full control of the Circle, and the FE has more power that Rassler  thought.
Technicallty templars like  Alrik should've punished, otherwise he woudn't have done things in secret. The problem is that the Meredith likely didn't control much her templars, and woudn't believe a mage's word. Gregoir, from some codex, seemed to be more vigilant on this. Though I'd say that there should've been a third organization that should watch the templars. The Seekers should have this job in theory, but they failed at it.

[Lulupab]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Templars cannot Tranquil mages without the authorization to do so from the First Enchanter, and then it can only be done to Apprentices who havn't passed their Harrowing, or known criminal mages.

What Alrik did was illegal, and without the knowledge of either Meredith or Orsino.

True but my goal with my argument was Templars should be punished very harshly if they abuse their power or do illegal things like that. They are a police force not rulers. They should'nt have "divine rights" or any rights over mages. They are just there to watch and prevent. If the punishments are harsh enough the corrupt Templars will think twice. The punishment for abusing should be lifetime prison and the punishment for unjust tranquility should be hanging. I mean mages are usually killed immediately if they go corrupt and use blood magic. Even if they don't do any evil with the blood magic itself the fact that they are branded as a maleficar is enough to kill them.

[The Elder King]

I really doubt that if a templar is found out abusing or illegally tranquilizing mages, he woudn't be sentenced to prison or death.

[Hellion Rex]

Rassler wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Templars cannot Tranquil mages without the authorization to do so from the First Enchanter, and then it can only be done to Apprentices who havn't passed their Harrowing, or known criminal mages.

What Alrik did was illegal, and without the knowledge of either Meredith or Orsino.

True but my goal with my argument was Templars should be punished very harshly if they abuse their power or do illegal things like that. They are a police force not rulers. They should'nt have "divine rights" or any rights over mages. They are just there to watch and prevent. If the punishments are harsh enough the corrupt Templars will think twice. The punishment for abusing should be lifetime prison and the punishment for unjust tranquility should be hanging. I mean mages are usually killed immediately if they go corrupt and use blood magic. Even if they don't do any evil with the blood magic itself the fact that they are branded as a maleficar is enough to kill them.

A possible root of the problem lies within the Seeker Order. They seriously need to get their sh*t together. If they had been more willing to address abuses within the Circle, then we might not have a rebellion to begin with.

[The Elder King]

@eluvianix: I agree completely. Though if Lambert was already the lord Seeker in DA2, I can understand why they didn't act.

[Lulupab]

hhh89 wrote...

I really doubt that if a templar is found out abusing or illegally tranquilizing mages, he woudn't be sentenced to prison or death.

We've been shown no such thing in all the games. The protagonist is usually the one taking justice into their hands and punishing the abuser Templar and sometimes you can even support the unjust Templar. I mean do you honestly believe what you just said?

David Gaider has provided us Fiona and Lambert. None of them are evil, they are fightng for what they believe and both can be considered a noble ideal. I have no problem with what Templars believe in. In my opinion if Templars were more careful with who they recruit things would have been much better. What is the requirement for being a templar? Nothing, other than being able to fight. None of this happened instantly, over a thousand year this has caused damage and anger and now all hell has broke loose.

[MisterJB]

Whatever faults he may have, Lambert took his duty to protect mages very seriously. For instance, he committed himself to discovering who was murdering mages and only mages in the White Spire and he succeeded.
He may think mages are unworthy of protection but that doesn't mean he would have ignored abuses like what Alrik was doing has evidence of it been brought to his attention.

Modifié par MisterJB, 15 janvier 2014 - 05:23 .

[Pasquale1234]

TK514 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Circle holds no juridstiction over the Chantry, and you had just aided and abetted a Blood Mage, so yes, you were sentenced to death.
Had Irving involed Greagoir in his little plot, then you probably wouldn't have beens entenced to death, but then Irving wouldn't have been able to take make sure a Chantry sister's life was ruined either.

this is pretty much a textbook example of a Templar doing exactly what he was supposed to do.  Templars are responsible for Circle security and protecting Mages from themselves and others.  You had just run roughshod all over Circle security, and, having obviously consorted with a demonstrated Blood Mage, there was no way for anyone present to know if you weren't also a Blood Mage, or possessed.  Executing you was the sad but prudent and inevitable response to Jowan's use of Blood Magic.  Just one more example of Jowan's thinking only of himself and not considering how his actions would impact others.

The problem with that is the way it discourages mages from ratting out rulebreakers, or helping to trap them.  If templar justice wasn't so harsh, they might have more mages willing to help them enforce the rules.

hhh89 wrote...

Technicallty templars like Alrik should've punished, otherwise he woudn't have done things in secret. The problem is that the Meredith likely didn't control much her templars, and woudn't believe a mage's word.

We all know that Kirkwall was an extreme example of pretty much everything.

That said, both Meredith and the Divine were aware of Ser Alrik's proposed Tranquil Solution.  Either of those authorities should have immediately ousted him for even suggesting it.

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I really doubt that if a templar is found out abusing or illegally tranquilizing mages, he woudn't be sentenced to prison or death.

We've been shown no such thing in all the games. The protagonist is usually the one taking justice into their hands and punishing the abuser Templar and sometimes you can even support the unjust Templar. I mean do you honestly believe what you just said?

Karras threatened Alain with Tranquility if he told anyone what he had forced him to do. The very fact he took great pains to conceal his actions prove that he feared retaliation; and this was in what is, apparently, the worst Circle in Thedas.

The protagonist also kills a great number of brigands. Should we assume the justice system is ignoring their crimes as well?
It's far more likely the PC is just catching those that slip between the cracks.

[SZAKAL1992]

Chantry is nothing more but a parody of the true religion should guide the entire world, it's true goal is to control their miserable dogs, the templars and to enslave all mages. Their dogs dare to interfere with warden's bussines when they ambush Anders back in City of Amaranthine while they have no power to command the Warden-Commander who was at the same time Arl of Amarantine(they do this even if he is a king-consort!), also in Kirkwall they let their Knight-Commander to become ruler of that region of Thedas with tyranny and fear, they let the templars tranquil the mages wherver they likes, so it's shouldn't be suprise hat most of mages were insane, they tormented them like wild animals, and the grand cleric do nothing in matters of Free Marches's mages and when Meredith and Orsino make their quarrel, so I think those events of grand cleric death(goodbye and good riddance), the Kirkwall Rebellion, and finally this World War was inevitable. I think this is like Morrigan said, only change is what will set free, free from Chantry's tyranny and corrupted Templars's rule.

My brothers "darksiders", the time has come for mage's from Inquisition-organization to destroy Chantry and Templars and create a brand new world, with mages as their leaders!! While they will be under control of Inquisitor and his/her successor's. I will of course will choose mage as main character so it will be much easier to rule my fellow mage's.

And that was my extremist, radical but in my view only right solution. I would also hope to be in beta of both keep and main game if there is a chance. Seeya!

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

Whatever faults he may have, Lambert took his duty to protect mages very seriously. For instance, he committed himself to discovering who was murdering mages and only mages in the White Spire and he succeeded.
He may think mages are unworthy of protection but that doesn't mean he would have ignored abuses like what Alrik was doing has evidence of it been brought to his attention.

I don't think Lambert deserves blame alone in this however. The Divine knew as did Meredith. The minute Justinia knew of the situation that should have set off some alarm bells. And then, she should have sent Seekers to investigate.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Oh look... Another mage supremacist.... Look at him go!

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Oh look... Another mage supremacist.... Look at him go!

See what you pro-templars do to these poor souls! You ought to be ashamed!

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Oh look... Another mage supremacist.... Look at him go!

See what you pro-templars do to these poor souls! You ought to be ashamed!

Personally I blame puberty.

[Br3admax]

Ohai mage-supremacist #34332.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

Whatever faults he may have, Lambert took his duty to protect mages very seriously. For instance, he committed himself to discovering who was murdering mages and only mages in the White Spire and he succeeded.
He may think mages are unworthy of protection but that doesn't mean he would have ignored abuses like what Alrik was doing has evidence of it been brought to his attention.

I admit that I might be wrong about it. Though we have no means to know if he was Lord Seeker, or what he/the divine knew about Kirkwall before Leliana's mission.
I do think that the Seekers should've been more involved in the Circles in general though. 

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Can't we just agree with Lotion Soronnar solutions and move to another topic preferably not related to Mages vs Templars?

[Hellion Rex]

Kaiser Arian wrote...

Can't we just agree with Lotion Soronnar solutions and move to another topic preferably not related to Mages vs Templars?

Nope.

[Br3admax]

Kaiser Arian wrote...

Can't we just agree with Lotion Soronnar solutions and move to another topic preferably not related to Mages vs Templars?

It's not safe to go alone. Take this.