1537 réponses à ce sujet

[ianvillan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Templars cannot Tranquil mages without the authorization to do so from the First Enchanter, and then it can only be done to Apprentices who havn't passed their Harrowing, or known criminal mages.

What Alrik did was illegal, and without the knowledge of either Meredith or Orsino.

Meredith and Orsinio would know the moment Karl spoke or interacted with anyone, and all they had to do was ask who did it and he would tell them it was Alrik.

Yet Alrik was allowed to continue as if nothing happened. Alrik should of faced the most extreme punishment there is for a Templar, and Meredith should be held accountable for not having proper control of her Templars.

The fact that no investigation was called shows that non of the Templars in the circle had a problem with an illegal tranquilisation happening.

It also allowed the Templars to get away with more abuses because they knew whatever they did they would not be punished, and the mages knew that if they did not do as the Templars said they could be made tranquil freely.

[Hellion Rex]

ianvillan wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Templars cannot Tranquil mages without the authorization to do so from the First Enchanter, and then it can only be done to Apprentices who havn't passed their Harrowing, or known criminal mages.

What Alrik did was illegal, and without the knowledge of either Meredith or Orsino.

Meredith and Orsinio would know the moment Karl spoke or interacted with anyone, and all they had to do was ask who did it and he would tell them it was Alrik.

Yet Alrik was allowed to continue as if nothing happened. Alrik should of faced the most extreme punishment there is for a Templar, and Meredith should be held accountable for not having proper control of her Templars.

The fact that no investigation was called shows that non of the Templars in the circle had a problem with an illegal tranquilisation happening.

It also allowed the Templars to get away with more abuses because they knew whatever they did they would not be punished, and the mages knew that if they did not do as the Templars said they could be made tranquil freely.

I don't blame Meredith in this regard. You would think that if a Knight Commander like Meredith shot you down, you would be smart enough not to go against her orders. Other than the ones who helped Alrik, I doubt any Templar would think he'd be dumb enough to go against her.And for all we know, there could have been an investigation afterwards, once Alrik's corpse was found.

[ianvillan]

Veruin wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
In DAO mage origin if you tell Irvine about Jowan he asks you to follow him to see what he was doing and get evidence to prove the Chantry woman's involvement or the Templars would not believe them.

Since Jowan was a blood mage, they probably would've seen it as "Blood magic mind domination"  hence why she needed to be caught him the act.

"And it appears the sister is fully aware of her actions and not a thrall of the blood mage.  It is as you say Irving.  The initiate has betrayed us."

But if the First Enchanters had power in the circles then Irvine could of said that you were working for him so you should not be punished for doing what he said.

Also no one suspected that Jowan was a blood mage, in fact no one had any idea what he was going to do.

The only reason Irvine allowed you to help them instead of calling the matter to the Templars straight away was because of the Templar corruption of only punishing mages and not punishing any of the others who might commit crimes in the circle.

[Hellion Rex]

ianvillan wrote...
Also no one suspected that Jowan was a blood mage, in fact no one had any idea what he was going to do.

I don't think that's correct. The whole point of him being made Tranquil was because he had been suspected of looking at some blood magic stuff.

[AresKeith]

eluvianix wrote...
A possible root of the problem lies within the Seeker Order. They seriously need to get their sh*t together. If they had been more willing to address abuses within the Circle, then we might not have a rebellion to begin with.

We need moar Cassandra's in the Seeker Order lol

[Hellion Rex]

AresKeith wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
A possible root of the problem lies within the Seeker Order. They seriously need to get their sh*t together. If they had been more willing to address abuses within the Circle, then we might not have a rebellion to begin with.

We need moar Cassandra's in the Seeker Order lol

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not lol. But yeah, more people like her would be nice.

[AresKeith]

eluvianix wrote...

I don't think Lambert deserves blame alone in this however. The Divine knew as did Meredith. The minute Justinia knew of the situation that should have set off some alarm bells. And then, she should have sent Seekers to investigate.

Technically, she sorta-kinda did

[Hellion Rex]

AresKeith wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

I don't think Lambert deserves blame alone in this however. The Divine knew as did Meredith. The minute Justinia knew of the situation that should have set off some alarm bells. And then, she should have sent Seekers to investigate.

Technically, she sorta-kinda did

Three years later. I meant Justinia should have sent Seekers the minute she heard about what Alrik had proposed.

[ianvillan]

eluvianix wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
Also no one suspected that Jowan was a blood mage, in fact no one had any idea what he was going to do.

I don't think that's correct. The whole point of him being made Tranquil was because he had been suspected of looking at some blood magic stuff.

I don't know if you are correct I thought that Jowan just thought they were going to make him Tranquil because he was not strong enough to survive the harrowing.

But even if what you say is true then if a mage can be made Tranquil for a suspicion with no proof then the mages have no chance at being safe in the circle when any Templar could just say they suspected a mage of blood magic.

[AresKeith]

eluvianix wrote...
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not lol. But yeah, more people like her would be nice.

Yea I was being serious, she's a person who would do her duty

eluvianix wrote...Three years later. I meant Justinia should have sent Seekers the minute she heard about what Alrik had proposed.

I was talking about Leliana being sent to investigate and get the Grand Cleric

[ianvillan]

eluvianix wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

I don't think Lambert deserves blame alone in this however. The Divine knew as did Meredith. The minute Justinia knew of the situation that should have set off some alarm bells. And then, she should have sent Seekers to investigate.

Technically, she sorta-kinda did

Three years later. I meant Justinia should have sent Seekers the minute she heard about what Alrik had proposed.

Seekers should of been sent the minute Karl was made Tranquil and they should of taken control of the circle until a major investigation was carried out  to see who was involved in what happened.

[Hellion Rex]

ianvillan wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

I don't think Lambert deserves blame alone in this however. The Divine knew as did Meredith. The minute Justinia knew of the situation that should have set off some alarm bells. And then, she should have sent Seekers to investigate.

Technically, she sorta-kinda did

Three years later. I meant Justinia should have sent Seekers the minute she heard about what Alrik had proposed.

Seekers should of been sent the minute Karl was made Tranquil and they should of taken control of the circle until a major investigation was carried out  to see who was involved in what happened.

However, again, Karl was made Tranquil at the behest of Alrik, and we have no idea if Meredith sanctioned that the Rite performed on him. We have no idea if Meredith even knew about Karl.

[ianvillan]

eluvianix wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

I don't think Lambert deserves blame alone in this however. The Divine knew as did Meredith. The minute Justinia knew of the situation that should have set off some alarm bells. And then, she should have sent Seekers to investigate.

Technically, she sorta-kinda did

Three years later. I meant Justinia should have sent Seekers the minute she heard about what Alrik had proposed.

Seekers should of been sent the minute Karl was made Tranquil and they should of taken control of the circle until a major investigation was carried out  to see who was involved in what happened.

However, again, Karl was made Tranquil at the behest of Alrik, and we have no idea if Meredith sanctioned that the Rite performed on him. We have no idea if Meredith even knew about Karl.

An investigation should of been called to find out if Meredith ordered Karl be made tranquil.

How could they not know Karl was made tranquil, unless he was locked in solitary confinement with no contact by anyone Mage or Templar then just speaking to him or the fact that he couldn't do lessons or any magic would of told people and that is not going with the brand on his forehead.

Plus Orsinio would of gone straight to Meredith about it.

The only possibility is that the Templars knew and accepted it and that no investigation happened.

Modifié par ianvillan, 15 janvier 2014 - 06:26 .

[The Elder King]

About Jowan, I remember that Irving said that Gregoir had proofs about him being a blood mage. We don't who what those proofs were.

[EmperorSahlertz]

ianvillan wrote...
An investigation should of been called to find out if Meredith ordered Karl be made tranquil.

How could they not know Karl was made tranquil, unless he was locked in solitary confinement with no contact by anyone Mage or Templar then just speaking to him or the fact that he couldn't do lessons or any magic would of told people and that is not going with the brand on his forehead.

Plus Orsinio would of gone straight to Meredith about it.

The only possibility is that the Templars knew and accepted it and that no investigation happened.

What makes you think that Meredith and Orsino even knew who Karl was to begin wtih? The Gallows could house hundreds of mages, and Meredith and Orsino certainly wouldn't keep track of every single one personally.

[Pasquale1234]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What makes you think that Meredith and Orsino even knew who Karl was to begin wtih? The Gallows could house hundreds of mages, and Meredith and Orsino certainly wouldn't keep track of every single one personally.

Any prison, military barracks, school, etc. that is expected to keep track of its charges does some form of attendance / roll-call recordkeeping multiple times daily.  For a regular mage to disappear and be replaced with an additional tranquil while nobody takes notice points to a pretty high degree of corruption, or at least incompetence, throughout the organization.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 15 janvier 2014 - 06:48 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What makes you think that Meredith and Orsino even knew who Karl was to begin wtih? The Gallows could house hundreds of mages, and Meredith and Orsino certainly wouldn't keep track of every single one personally.

Any prison, military barracks, school, etc. that is expected to keep track of its charges does some form of attendance / roll-call recordkeeping multiple times daily.  For a regular mage to disappear and be replaced with an additional tranquil points to a pretty high degree of corruption, or at least incompetence, throughout the organization.

You know what prisons also use to keep track of their prisoners? Computers. You know what Thedas decidedly do not have? Computers.

Meredith and Orsino, as we KNOW was purposefully kept from the knowledge, so why exactly do people keep claiming they should have known anyway?

[Lulupab]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What makes you think that Meredith and Orsino even knew who Karl was to begin wtih? The Gallows could house hundreds of mages, and Meredith and Orsino certainly wouldn't keep track of every single one personally.

Any prison, military barracks, school, etc. that is expected to keep track of its charges does some form of attendance / roll-call recordkeeping multiple times daily.  For a regular mage to disappear and be replaced with an additional tranquil points to a pretty high degree of corruption, or at least incompetence, throughout the organization.

You know what prisons also use to keep track of their prisoners? Computers. You know what Thedas decidedly do not have? Computers.

Meredith and Orsino, as we KNOW was purposefully kept from the knowledge, so why exactly do people keep claiming they should have known anyway?

Yet when a Templar recruit goes missing they kno about it instantly. HOW AMUSING.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Because the knowledge wasn't kept from them?

[Hellion Rex]

Rassler wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What makes you think that Meredith and Orsino even knew who Karl was to begin wtih? The Gallows could house hundreds of mages, and Meredith and Orsino certainly wouldn't keep track of every single one personally.

Any prison, military barracks, school, etc. that is expected to keep track of its charges does some form of attendance / roll-call recordkeeping multiple times daily.  For a regular mage to disappear and be replaced with an additional tranquil points to a pretty high degree of corruption, or at least incompetence, throughout the organization.

You know what prisons also use to keep track of their prisoners? Computers. You know what Thedas decidedly do not have? Computers.

Meredith and Orsino, as we KNOW was purposefully kept from the knowledge, so why exactly do people keep claiming they should have known anyway?

Yet when a Templar recruit goes missing they kno about it instantly. HOW AMUSING.

Ah, but his sister brought it forth to the Order which brought it to Cullen's attention.

[TK514]

Karl was a criminal. He was caught red handed conspiring with a known maleficar. At this point in time, Anders was a murderer and criminal, not for his actions prior to joining the Wardens, but his known crimes when leaving them. And Karl was caught corresponding with Anders and plotting at the very least his own escape.

I don't necessarily agree that the punishment fit the crime, but by the letter of the law, Karl's Tranquility was legal.

[Lulupab]

eluvianix wrote...

Rassler wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What makes you think that Meredith and Orsino even knew who Karl was to begin wtih? The Gallows could house hundreds of mages, and Meredith and Orsino certainly wouldn't keep track of every single one personally.

Any prison, military barracks, school, etc. that is expected to keep track of its charges does some form of attendance / roll-call recordkeeping multiple times daily.  For a regular mage to disappear and be replaced with an additional tranquil points to a pretty high degree of corruption, or at least incompetence, throughout the organization.

You know what prisons also use to keep track of their prisoners? Computers. You know what Thedas decidedly do not have? Computers.

Meredith and Orsino, as we KNOW was purposefully kept from the knowledge, so why exactly do people keep claiming they should have known anyway?

Yet when a Templar recruit goes missing they kno about it instantly. HOW AMUSING.

Ah, but his sister brought it forth to the Order which brought it to Cullen's attention.

I wasn't tralking about Keran. He disappeared much later that wilmod. I was talking about wilmod.

[Pasquale1234]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What makes you think that Meredith and Orsino even knew who Karl was to begin wtih? The Gallows could house hundreds of mages, and Meredith and Orsino certainly wouldn't keep track of every single one personally.

Any prison, military barracks, school, etc. that is expected to keep track of its charges does some form of attendance / roll-call recordkeeping multiple times daily.  For a regular mage to disappear and be replaced with an additional tranquil points to a pretty high degree of corruption, or at least incompetence, throughout the organization.

You know what prisons also use to keep track of their prisoners? Computers. You know what Thedas decidedly do not have? Computers.

Not relevant.  Records were kept long before computers became available.  Even the simplest system of head counts, bed counts, should have revealed a discrepancy.

Meredith and Orsino, as we KNOW was purposefully kept from the knowledge, so why exactly do people keep claiming they should have known anyway?

Most people in leadership positions have lists, counts, statuses of the people for whom they are responsible, and are notified of changes.

Are you claiming that they shouldn't have known?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What makes you think that Meredith and Orsino even knew who Karl was to begin wtih? The Gallows could house hundreds of mages, and Meredith and Orsino certainly wouldn't keep track of every single one personally.

Any prison, military barracks, school, etc. that is expected to keep track of its charges does some form of attendance / roll-call recordkeeping multiple times daily.  For a regular mage to disappear and be replaced with an additional tranquil points to a pretty high degree of corruption, or at least incompetence, throughout the organization.

You know what prisons also use to keep track of their prisoners? Computers. You know what Thedas decidedly do not have? Computers.

Not relevant.  Records were kept long before computers became available.  Even the simplest system of head counts, bed counts, should have revealed a discrepancy.

Meredith and Orsino, as we KNOW was purposefully kept from the knowledge, so why exactly do people keep claiming they should have known anyway?

Most people in leadership positions have lists, counts, statuses of the people for whom they are responsible, and are notified of changes.

Are you claiming that they shouldn't have known?

It is a medieval setting. Do you ahve any idea of how shoddy record keeping was in thsoe times, and exactly what records were even kept of?
Yes, I am saying that it is compeltely unreasonable to demand of both Orsino and Meredith to keep complete and absolute track of every single Templar and mage in the Circle.

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

Karl was a criminal. He was caught red handed conspiring with a known maleficar. At this point in time, Anders was a murderer and criminal, not for his actions prior to joining the Wardens, but his known crimes when leaving them. And Karl was caught corresponding with Anders and plotting at the very least his own escape.

I don't necessarily agree that the punishment fit the crime, but by the letter of the law, Karl's Tranquility was legal.

Apostate, not maleficar. And no, it was not legal. You need both First Enchanter and Knight Commander approval. And considering it was Alrik who did it, we are left unsure as to whether or not Meredith knew what was up.