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[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, Anders was an Abomination so I'd presume that he technically was a Maleficar at that time, even if the Tempalrs didn't really know that.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, Anders was an Abomination so I'd presume that he technically was a Maleficar at that time, even if the Tempalrs didn't really know that.

Possessed, but not a blood mage. And the templars had no idea at all what he had become.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, Anders was an Abomination so I'd presume that he technically was a Maleficar at that time, even if the Tempalrs didn't really know that.

Possessed, but not a blood mage. And the templars had no idea at all what he had become.

Maleficars are practitioners of illegal magics, not just Blood Mages. Being possessed gives access to new kinds of amgic and it is certainly illegal, making Anders technically a Maleficar.

[Br3admax]

eluvianix wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Karl was a criminal. He was caught red handed conspiring with a known maleficar. At this point in time, Anders was a murderer and criminal, not for his actions prior to joining the Wardens, but his known crimes when leaving them. And Karl was caught corresponding with Anders and plotting at the very least his own escape.

I don't necessarily agree that the punishment fit the crime, but by the letter of the law, Karl's Tranquility was legal.

Apostate, not maleficar.

Maleficar is not synonomus with blood mage. Anders let a demon possess him, as well as practicing a few magic I'm sure the Chantry would not approve of. As to the second part, that's just speculation. We don't know, so we should not make assumptions. 

[TK514]

I find it interesting how people are quick to blame Meredith as though she were the only authority figure with a voice. Why didn't Orsino do anything about it? Forget the Templars for a moment, he was the First Enchanter, and the Mages in the Circle and their welfare are absolutely his responsibility. Don't tell me he was just too timid to say anything. This is a man who spoke his mind without fear every single time we saw him. This is a Mage who stood up in the middle of High Town and called the Knight Commander out directly, making public accusations of overstepping her authority. He'd have gone to Meredith the first time it happened, and if that didn't work, he'd have gone to the Grand Cleric. So if he didn't know, why are we assuming that Meredith should?

[AresKeith]

Rassler wrote...
I wasn't tralking about Keran. He disappeared much later that wilmod. I was talking about wilmod.

And it was probably the same situation like Keran

[Br3admax]

TK514 wrote...

I find it interesting how people are quick to blame Meredith as though she were the only authority figure with a voice. Why didn't Orsino do anything about it? Forget the Templars for a moment, he was the First Enchanter, and the Mages in the Circle and their welfare are absolutely his responsibility. Don't tell me he was just too timid to say anything. This is a man who spoke his mind without fear every single time we saw him. This is a Mage who stood up in the middle of High Town and called the Knight Commander out directly, making public accusations of overstepping her authority. He'd have gone to Meredith the first time it happened, and if that didn't work, he'd have gone to the Grand Cleric. So if he didn't know, why are we assuming that Meredith should?

The mage who threw me under the bus. <_<

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, Anders was an Abomination so I'd presume that he technically was a Maleficar at that time, even if the Tempalrs didn't really know that.

Possessed, but not a blood mage. And the templars had no idea at all what he had become.

Maleficars are practitioners of illegal magics, not just Blood Mages. Being possessed gives access to new kinds of amgic and it is certainly illegal, making Anders technically a Maleficar.

Ah, but he is a Grey Warden. Are they not given a free pass in this?

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

I find it interesting how people are quick to blame Meredith as though she were the only authority figure with a voice. Why didn't Orsino do anything about it? Forget the Templars for a moment, he was the First Enchanter, and the Mages in the Circle and their welfare are absolutely his responsibility. Don't tell me he was just too timid to say anything. This is a man who spoke his mind without fear every single time we saw him. This is a Mage who stood up in the middle of High Town and called the Knight Commander out directly, making public accusations of overstepping her authority. He'd have gone to Meredith the first time it happened, and if that didn't work, he'd have gone to the Grand Cleric. So if he didn't know, why are we assuming that Meredith should?

I honestly don't think anybody knew.

[Pasquale1234]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is a medieval setting. Do you ahve any idea of how shoddy record keeping was in thsoe times, and exactly what records were even kept of?

I understand that record-keeping has evolved.  Still, they should at least keep counts and investigate discrepancies.

Yes, I am saying that it is compeltely unreasonable to demand of both Orsino and Meredith to keep complete and absolute track of every single Templar and mage in the Circle.

Complete and absolute?  Simple head counts would tell you something is amiss.

Or, you know, that some someone(s) are missing... like Huon, Evelina, and Emile.

ETA:  And it's a little hard to think of Wynne as maleficar, but if the shoe fits...

ETA2:  And BTW, we find all manner of notes, invoices, shopping lists, etc. in-game, so perhaps record-keeping in Thedas is not directly comparable to our medieval times.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 15 janvier 2014 - 07:30 .

[TK514]

Anders was a Maleficar at that point, regardless of his possession. He used magic for murder.

From memory, so the quote from the Chant of Light may be slightly off. Apologies.

"Foul and corrupt are they who have taken His gift and turned it against His children. They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones."

Cousin Kenobi:  I don't think you get to claim Warden immunity when you're murdering them to escape their Order.

Modifié par TK514, 15 janvier 2014 - 07:25 .

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

Anders was a Maleficar at that point, regardless of his possession. He used magic for murder.

From memory, so the quote from the Chant of Light may be slightly off. Apologies.

"Foul and corrupt are they who have taken His gift and turned it against His children. They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones."

Doesn't matter. Grey Warden are exempt from the rules. But regardless, nobody knew that Anders had killed those people.

[TK514]

eluvianix wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Anders was a Maleficar at that point, regardless of his possession. He used magic for murder.

From memory, so the quote from the Chant of Light may be slightly off. Apologies.

"Foul and corrupt are they who have taken His gift and turned it against His children. They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones."

Doesn't matter. Grey Warden are exempt from the rules. But regardless, nobody knew that Anders had killed those people.

see my edit.  You don't get to claim Warden immunity when they're the ones you're murdering while fleeing their Order.

[Br3admax]

Also, being a Warden isn't a pass to do what you want. Especially when you aren't a Warden anymore.

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Anders was a Maleficar at that point, regardless of his possession. He used magic for murder.

From memory, so the quote from the Chant of Light may be slightly off. Apologies.

"Foul and corrupt are they who have taken His gift and turned it against His children. They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones."

Doesn't matter. Grey Warden are exempt from the rules. But regardless, nobody knew that Anders had killed those people.

see my edit.  You don't get to claim Warden immunity when they're the ones you're murdering while fleeing their Order.

My point was this: Anders escaped from the Wardens after a select few of them wanted to give him over to the Templars, even though he had been conscripted under the Right. He killed them, yes, I am aware. But if these Templars and Wardens wanted to supercede the Right, they were working under the radar. So if Anders killed them all, who the hell would have known what had happened? That (A) Anders killed them, and ( that he was possessed. So all any Templar in Kirkwall, including Alrik, could have known about him was that he was a Grey Warden mage who had gone missing. All I am asserting is that Alrik only could have known was that Anders was a Grey Warden mage gone missing, not that he was maleficar or that he was responsible for those deaths.

Modifié par eluvianix, 15 janvier 2014 - 07:33 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is a medieval setting. Do you ahve any idea of how shoddy record keeping was in thsoe times, and exactly what records were even kept of?

I understand that record-keeping has evolved.  Still, they should at least keep counts and investigate discrepancies.

Yes, I am saying that it is compeltely unreasonable to demand of both Orsino and Meredith to keep complete and absolute track of every single Templar and mage in the Circle.

Complete and absolute?  Simple head counts would tell you something is amiss.

Or, you know, that some someone(s) are missing... like Huon, Evelina, and Emile.

ETA:  And it's a little hard to think of Wynne as maleficar, but if the shoe fits...

ETA2:  And BTW, we find all manner of notes, invoices, shopping lists, etc. in-game, so perhaps record-keeping in Thedas is not directly comparable to our medieval times.

And that is the EXACT kind of knowledge being kept from Meredith and Orsino. Ergo, it is unreasonable to demand of them to know this kind of detail.

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, Anders was an Abomination so I'd presume that he technically was a Maleficar at that time, even if the Tempalrs didn't really know that.

Possessed, but not a blood mage. And the templars had no idea at all what he had become.

Maleficars are practitioners of illegal magics, not just Blood Mages. Being possessed gives access to new kinds of amgic and it is certainly illegal, making Anders technically a Maleficar.

Ah, but he is a Grey Warden. Are they not given a free pass in this? 

He was a Grey Warden. He can't hide under that title anymore. I think many Grey Wardens even wants him dead, after he killed their fellow brothers.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He was a Grey Warden. He can't hide under that title anymore. I think many Grey Wardens even wants him dead, after he killed their fellow brothers.

But only a certain few Wardens knew about handing over Anders to the Templars, and then Anders killed them all at that meeting. Anders then disappeared. How would the Wardens know that Anders was the cause of those deaths, much less that he was still alive?

[ianvillan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
An investigation should of been called to find out if Meredith ordered Karl be made tranquil.

How could they not know Karl was made tranquil, unless he was locked in solitary confinement with no contact by anyone Mage or Templar then just speaking to him or the fact that he couldn't do lessons or any magic would of told people and that is not going with the brand on his forehead.

Plus Orsinio would of gone straight to Meredith about it.

The only possibility is that the Templars knew and accepted it and that no investigation happened.

What makes you think that Meredith and Orsino even knew who Karl was to begin wtih? The Gallows could house hundreds of mages, and Meredith and Orsino certainly wouldn't keep track of every single one personally.

Tranquil are a tiny percent of the circle so when a new one suddenly turns up it would get mentioned. I also believe that the Knight-Commander and First Enchanter would keep records of who are the tranquil so as to help them.

Surely there are mages who interact regularly with the Tranquil who would know when a new one suddenly turns up and is not meant to be there.

Karl surly had friends in the circle who would say something to the other mages about his being made tranquil illegally.

The other Tranquil would of said something when Karl told them he was made Tranquil illegally.

 

[TK514]

eluvianix wrote...

My point was this: Anders escaped from the Wardens after a select few of them wanted to give him over to the Templars, even though he had been conscripted under the Right. He killed them, yes, I am aware. But if these Templars and Wardens wanted to supercede the Right, they were working under the radar. So if Anders killed them all, who the hell would have known what had happened? That (A) Anders killed them, and ( that he was possessed. So all any Templar in Kirkwall, including Alrik, could have known about him was that he was a Grey Warden mage who had gone missing.

I'm not buying that the Wardens wouldn't know, and that they wouldn't inform the Templars.

Even if you're right, which I have difficulty with, but even if you change Maleficar to 'merely' Apostate, the point stands. Karl was engaged in criminal conspiracy, so by the letter of the Law his Tranquility was legal.

And again, for people who have poor reading comprehension skills, I said "legal", not "right".  At no time have I said I thought the punishment fit the crime.  Anders got away with solitary confinement eight times, which should be proof enough for anyone that not all Circles are Kirkwall hellholes.  Not that it will stop the usual subjects from claiming otherwise.

Modifié par TK514, 15 janvier 2014 - 07:46 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And that is the EXACT kind of knowledge being kept from Meredith and Orsino. Ergo, it is unreasonable to demand of them to know this kind of detail.

You would expect them to notice eventually if there were more Tranquil than the lists they had access to admitted, though.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He was a Grey Warden. He can't hide under that title anymore. I think many Grey Wardens even wants him dead, after he killed their fellow brothers.

Which he only did because they decided that he can't hide behind this title after taking Justice into himself, so there's also that in your favor.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 janvier 2014 - 07:45 .

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

My point was this: Anders escaped from the Wardens after a select few of them wanted to give him over to the Templars, even though he had been conscripted under the Right. He killed them, yes, I am aware. But if these Templars and Wardens wanted to supercede the Right, they were working under the radar. So if Anders killed them all, who the hell would have known what had happened? That (A) Anders killed them, and ( that he was possessed. So all any Templar in Kirkwall, including Alrik, could have known about him was that he was a Grey Warden mage who had gone missing.

I'm not buying that the Wardens wouldn't know, and that they wouldn't inform the Templars.

Even if you're right, which I have difficulty with, but even if you change Maleficar to 'merely' Apostate, the point stands. Karl was engaged in criminal conspiracy, so by the letter of the Law his Tranquility was legal.

And again, for people who have poor reading comprehension skills, I said "legal", not "right".  At no time have I said I thought the punishment fit the crime.  Anders got away with solitary confinement eight times, which should be proof enough for anyone that not are. Ircles are Kirkwall hellholes.  Not that it will stop the usual subjects from claiming otherwise.

I'm totally just spitballing here on my end, based on my own observations. I'm not arguing that the Templars were right on the legal end, because Anders was indeed maleficar. I'm just trying to ascertain whether or not they actually had all this info available to them about what really happened, or whether or not Alrik was just doing it to screw with the one mage who "got away".

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He was a Grey Warden. He can't hide under that title anymore. I think many Grey Wardens even wants him dead, after he killed their fellow brothers.

I'm not exactly sold on this point either, especially given the reactions of both Stroud and Nathaniel. They seemed surprised at Anders being in the Deep Roads, not even remotely hostile to his presence.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He was a Grey Warden. He can't hide under that title anymore. I think many Grey Wardens even wants him dead, after he killed their fellow brothers.

But only a certain few Wardens knew about handing over Anders to the Templars, and then Anders killed them all at that meeting. Anders then disappeared. How would the Wardens know that Anders was the cause of those deaths, much less that he was still alive?

Then you presume that the Warden sent after him were ALL the Wardens who knew about Anders' condition, and even the one issueing the orders were present. I find that highly unlikely.

[Lulupab]

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

My point was this: Anders escaped from the Wardens after a select few of them wanted to give him over to the Templars, even though he had been conscripted under the Right. He killed them, yes, I am aware. But if these Templars and Wardens wanted to supercede the Right, they were working under the radar. So if Anders killed them all, who the hell would have known what had happened? That (A) Anders killed them, and ( that he was possessed. So all any Templar in Kirkwall, including Alrik, could have known about him was that he was a Grey Warden mage who had gone missing.

I'm not buying that the Wardens wouldn't know, and that they wouldn't inform the Templars.

Even if you're right, which I have difficulty with, but even if you change Maleficar to 'merely' Apostate, the point stands. Karl was engaged in criminal conspiracy, so by the letter of the Law his Tranquility was legal.

And again, for people who have poor reading comprehension skills, I said "legal", not "right".  At no time have I said I thought the punishment fit the crime.  Anders got away with solitary confinement eight times, which should be proof enough for anyone that not all Circles are Kirkwall hellholes.  Not that it will stop the usual subjects from claiming otherwise.

The law clearly states that those mages who pass their harrowing cannot be made tranquil under any circumstance. They can be put in solitary for life but no tranquility. Anders escaped the cricle seven times but was never made tranquil because he passed his harrowing and wasn't a maleficar back then. Mages who passed their harrowing: if merely apostate solitary is their punishment, if maleficalr, they are killed. In kirkwall this law was ignored a lot of times and Karl's case was one of those.

Anders did not murder anyone before some greywardens with the help of Rolan decided to give him to Templars. The Grey warden law clearly states that they had no right to do that. If Duncan was alive he would've thought that Anders's new gained powers would be useful against the darkspawn. Grey wardens never stopped at any advantage against darkspawn, why should spirit possession be a problem? As long as Anders can listen and act he is a weapon and the grey wardens would use him. So the grey wardens who turned Anders in betrayed their order in the first place.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And that is the EXACT kind of knowledge being kept from Meredith and Orsino. Ergo, it is unreasonable to demand of them to know this kind of detail.

You would expect them to notice eventually if there were more Tranquil than the lists they had access to admitted, though.

In a Circle like the Gallows where the Tranquil make up a far larger percentage of the population? No. Especially not since it is entirely concievable, that Alrik only ever Tranquiled mages under his charge, and then either intimidated or lied to anyone who asked questions.

The matter of fact is that the knowledge was kept from Meredith. We ahve that in the lore, and yet people keep claiming that she should know any way. Which is entirely unreasonable.