1537 réponses à ce sujet

[Invisible Man]

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

My point was this: Anders escaped from the Wardens after a select few of them wanted to give him over to the Templars, even though he had been conscripted under the Right. He killed them, yes, I am aware. But if these Templars and Wardens wanted to supercede the Right, they were working under the radar. So if Anders killed them all, who the hell would have known what had happened? That (A) Anders killed them, and ( that he was possessed. So all any Templar in Kirkwall, including Alrik, could have known about him was that he was a Grey Warden mage who had gone missing.

I'm not buying that the Wardens wouldn't know, and that they wouldn't inform the Templars.

Even if you're right, which I have difficulty with, but even if you change Maleficar to 'merely' Apostate, the point stands. Karl was engaged in criminal conspiracy, so by the letter of the Law his Tranquility was legal.

And again, for people who have poor reading comprehension skills, I said "legal", not "right".  At no time have I said I thought the punishment fit the crime.  Anders got away with solitary confinement eight times, which should be proof enough for anyone that not all Circles are Kirkwall hellholes.  Not that it will stop the usual subjects from claiming otherwise.

as far as I know, making a harrowed mage tranquil for almost any reason is completely illegal under chantry law. (I could be wrong, but I don't think so)

[TK514]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He was a Grey Warden. He can't hide under that title anymore. I think many Grey Wardens even wants him dead, after he killed their fellow brothers.

I'm not exactly sold on this point either, especially given the reactions of both Stroud and Nathaniel. They seemed surprised at Anders being in the Deep Roads, not even remotely hostile to his presence.

Howe was a former friend/companion, and Stroud clearly states he owed Anders in some way.  I do wonder how much of this is a chicken egg scenario.  How much of DA2 was scripted and complete before that godawful story was written?

To be honest, few things would make me happier about the DA franchise than to have that story removed from canon.  Just replace it with "He ran away," and it's perfectly in character with Anders.

[Hellion Rex]

Invisible Man wrote...

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

My point was this: Anders escaped from the Wardens after a select few of them wanted to give him over to the Templars, even though he had been conscripted under the Right. He killed them, yes, I am aware. But if these Templars and Wardens wanted to supercede the Right, they were working under the radar. So if Anders killed them all, who the hell would have known what had happened? That (A) Anders killed them, and ( that he was possessed. So all any Templar in Kirkwall, including Alrik, could have known about him was that he was a Grey Warden mage who had gone missing.

I'm not buying that the Wardens wouldn't know, and that they wouldn't inform the Templars.

Even if you're right, which I have difficulty with, but even if you change Maleficar to 'merely' Apostate, the point stands. Karl was engaged in criminal conspiracy, so by the letter of the Law his Tranquility was legal.

And again, for people who have poor reading comprehension skills, I said "legal", not "right".  At no time have I said I thought the punishment fit the crime.  Anders got away with solitary confinement eight times, which should be proof enough for anyone that not all Circles are Kirkwall hellholes.  Not that it will stop the usual subjects from claiming otherwise.

as far as I know, making a harrowed mage tranquil for almost any reason is completely illegal under chantry law. (I could be wrong, but I don't think so)

I don't think it's necessarily illegal, if Karl was trying to get out of the tower with the help of maleficar.

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He was a Grey Warden. He can't hide under that title anymore. I think many Grey Wardens even wants him dead, after he killed their fellow brothers.

I'm not exactly sold on this point either, especially given the reactions of both Stroud and Nathaniel. They seemed surprised at Anders being in the Deep Roads, not even remotely hostile to his presence.

Howe was a former friend/companion, and Stroud clearly states he owed Anders in some way.  I do wonder how much of this is a chicken egg scenario.  How much of DA2 was scripted and complete before that godawful story was written?

To be honest, few things would make me happier about the DA franchise than to have that story removed from canon.  Just replace it with "He ran away," and it's perfectly in character with Anders.

Some storylines I loved in DA2, and others I'm like....daquq were the writers thinking?

[Lulupab]

eluvianix wrote...

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He was a Grey Warden. He can't hide under that title anymore. I think many Grey Wardens even wants him dead, after he killed their fellow brothers.

I'm not exactly sold on this point either, especially given the reactions of both Stroud and Nathaniel. They seemed surprised at Anders being in the Deep Roads, not even remotely hostile to his presence.

Howe was a former friend/companion, and Stroud clearly states he owed Anders in some way.  I do wonder how much of this is a chicken egg scenario.  How much of DA2 was scripted and complete before that godawful story was written?

To be honest, few things would make me happier about the DA franchise than to have that story removed from canon.  Just replace it with "He ran away," and it's perfectly in character with Anders.

Some storylines I loved in DA2, and others I'm like....daquq were the writers thinking?

DA2 was a rushed game. I'm guessing they never went back to review what they wrote and just went on as it came to them

[TheKomandorShepard]

eluvianix wrote...


I don't think it's necessarily illegal, if Karl was trying to get out of the tower with the help of maleficar.

It is even anders in daa if we ask why the didn't tranquil him he said because they can't do that with harrowed mage.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And that is the EXACT kind of knowledge being kept from Meredith and Orsino. Ergo, it is unreasonable to demand of them to know this kind of detail.

You would expect them to notice eventually if there were more Tranquil than the lists they had access to admitted, though.

In a Circle like the Gallows where the Tranquil make up a far larger percentage of the population? No. Especially not since it is entirely concievable, that Alrik only ever Tranquiled mages under his charge, and then either intimidated or lied to anyone who asked questions.

The matter of fact is that the knowledge was kept from Meredith. We ahve that in the lore, and yet people keep claiming that she should know any way. Which is entirely unreasonable.

Not if she's looking (keyword looking, rather than asking Alrik), which she should have been after getting the Tranquil Solution proposal. And even if I conceded this point, Orsino has no excuse. He's the one who's supposed to be making sure the mages get fair treatment from the Templars. And he's the one mages will talk to. There's no way the mages (apart from Orsino himself) are in the dark.

[Pasquale1234]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And that is the EXACT kind of knowledge being kept from Meredith and Orsino. Ergo, it is unreasonable to demand of them to know this kind of detail.

Uh... at this point, I'm not sure exactly what your argument is.

My argument is that they should know when a mage's status (e.g., mage --> tranquil) changes or any of them are missing.  I've also stated that if they are not apprised of such things, that points to corruption, or at the very least incompetence in the operations of the organization.

My interpretation of your argument thus far is that it is unreasonable to think they would keep tabs on everyone in their care.  Now you seem to be saying that they would have that information if it were not withheld.

Really not sure what we're arguing about.

[Invisible Man]

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He was a Grey Warden. He can't hide under that title anymore. I think many Grey Wardens even wants him dead, after he killed their fellow brothers.

I'm not exactly sold on this point either, especially given the reactions of both Stroud and Nathaniel. They seemed surprised at Anders being in the Deep Roads, not even remotely hostile to his presence.

Howe was a former friend/companion, and Stroud clearly states he owed Anders in some way.  I do wonder how much of this is a chicken egg scenario.  How much of DA2 was scripted and complete before that godawful story was written?

To be honest, few things would make me happier about the DA franchise than to have that story removed from canon.  Just replace it with "He ran away," and it's perfectly in character with Anders.

I would have liked to have believed that anders was a covert gray warden agent in Kirkwall for some reason or another. as most of my anders epilogues in DA:A stated he left the order for a few months and then returned never to leave again. or words to that effect.

[ianvillan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And that is the EXACT kind of knowledge being kept from Meredith and Orsino. Ergo, it is unreasonable to demand of them to know this kind of detail.

You would expect them to notice eventually if there were more Tranquil than the lists they had access to admitted, though.

In a Circle like the Gallows where the Tranquil make up a far larger percentage of the population? No. Especially not since it is entirely concievable, that Alrik only ever Tranquiled mages under his charge, and then either intimidated or lied to anyone who asked questions.

The matter of fact is that the knowledge was kept from Meredith. We ahve that in the lore, and yet people keep claiming that she should know any way. Which is entirely unreasonable.

Karl himself would of told some people, and in a place like the circle and especially one like Kirkwall the story would of spread even if it was in whispers amongst the Mages and Templars, it would of gotten to Orsinio or Meredith.

All Orsinio had to do was question Karl and he would of known the truth, he would definetly of gone to Meredith about it.

[Lulupab]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

eluvianix wrote...


I don't think it's necessarily illegal, if Karl was trying to get out of the tower with the help of maleficar.

It is even anders in daa if we ask why the didn't tranquil him he said because they can't do that with harrowed mage.

Indeed. harrowed maleficars are killed anyway and they have no right to tranquil apostates who have passed their harrowing. Solitary confinement is teh punishent for them.

Modifié par Rassler, 15 janvier 2014 - 08:07 .

[Invisible Man]

eluvianix wrote...

Invisible Man wrote...

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

My point was this: Anders escaped from the Wardens after a select few of them wanted to give him over to the Templars, even though he had been conscripted under the Right. He killed them, yes, I am aware. But if these Templars and Wardens wanted to supercede the Right, they were working under the radar. So if Anders killed them all, who the hell would have known what had happened? That (A) Anders killed them, and ( that he was possessed. So all any Templar in Kirkwall, including Alrik, could have known about him was that he was a Grey Warden mage who had gone missing.

I'm not buying that the Wardens wouldn't know, and that they wouldn't inform the Templars.

Even if you're right, which I have difficulty with, but even if you change Maleficar to 'merely' Apostate, the point stands. Karl was engaged in criminal conspiracy, so by the letter of the Law his Tranquility was legal.

And again, for people who have poor reading comprehension skills, I said "legal", not "right".  At no time have I said I thought the punishment fit the crime.  Anders got away with solitary confinement eight times, which should be proof enough for anyone that not all Circles are Kirkwall hellholes.  Not that it will stop the usual subjects from claiming otherwise.

as far as I know, making a harrowed mage tranquil for almost any reason is completely illegal under chantry law. (I could be wrong, but I don't think so)

I don't think it's necessarily illegal, if Karl was trying to get out of the tower with the help of maleficar.

my meaning of almost any reason was more along the lines of... about to be, but not yet possessed by a demon.

[EmperorSahlertz]

ianvillan wrote...
Karl himself would of told some people, and in a place like the circle and especially one like Kirkwall the story would of spread even if it was in whispers amongst the Mages and Templars, it would of gotten to Orsinio or Meredith.

All Orsinio had to do was question Karl and he would of known the truth, he would definetly of gone to Meredith about it.

What do you base this on? If Alrik simply ordered Alrik not to say aynthing, then Karl probably wouldn't ahve told anyone. Also, Karl didn't live as a Tranquil for long enough to this to matter anyway.

[ianvillan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
Karl himself would of told some people, and in a place like the circle and especially one like Kirkwall the story would of spread even if it was in whispers amongst the Mages and Templars, it would of gotten to Orsinio or Meredith.

All Orsinio had to do was question Karl and he would of known the truth, he would definetly of gone to Meredith about it.

What do you base this on? If Alrik simply ordered Alrik not to say aynthing, then Karl probably wouldn't ahve told anyone. Also, Karl didn't live as a Tranquil for long enough to this to matter anyway.

We have been told by David Gaider that the Tranquil have free will and are not bound by Templar orders.
So Alrik telling Karl not to tell anyone would not work and Alrik would also no be able to frighten Karl into silence.

[Hellion Rex]

ianvillan wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
Karl himself would of told some people, and in a place like the circle and especially one like Kirkwall the story would of spread even if it was in whispers amongst the Mages and Templars, it would of gotten to Orsinio or Meredith.

All Orsinio had to do was question Karl and he would of known the truth, he would definetly of gone to Meredith about it.

What do you base this on? If Alrik simply ordered Alrik not to say aynthing, then Karl probably wouldn't ahve told anyone. Also, Karl didn't live as a Tranquil for long enough to this to matter anyway.

We have been told by David Gaider that the Tranquil have free will and are not bound by Templar orders.
So Alrik telling Karl not to tell anyone would not work and Alrik would also no be able to frighten Karl into silence.

Seeing as once he was Tranquil, he helped set the trap for Anders, he does indeed follow orders willingly.

[The Six Path of Pain]

 Destroy! Destroy! Destroy! Let's destroy everything! 

[ianvillan]

eluvianix wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
Karl himself would of told some people, and in a place like the circle and especially one like Kirkwall the story would of spread even if it was in whispers amongst the Mages and Templars, it would of gotten to Orsinio or Meredith.

All Orsinio had to do was question Karl and he would of known the truth, he would definetly of gone to Meredith about it.

What do you base this on? If Alrik simply ordered Alrik not to say aynthing, then Karl probably wouldn't ahve told anyone. Also, Karl didn't live as a Tranquil for long enough to this to matter anyway.

We have been told by David Gaider that the Tranquil have free will and are not bound by Templar orders.
So Alrik telling Karl not to tell anyone would not work and Alrik would also no be able to frighten Karl into silence.

Seeing as once he was Tranquil, he helped set the trap for Anders, he does indeed follow orders willingly.

I do share an opinion about what we have been shown about how the Tranquil act that they have no free will and are virtually slaves to the Templars.

But David Gaider said that they do have free will, so if they do I think Karl would of mentioned it to other Mages and Templars.

Modifié par ianvillan, 15 janvier 2014 - 08:29 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

ianvillan wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
Karl himself would of told some people, and in a place like the circle and especially one like Kirkwall the story would of spread even if it was in whispers amongst the Mages and Templars, it would of gotten to Orsinio or Meredith.

All Orsinio had to do was question Karl and he would of known the truth, he would definetly of gone to Meredith about it.

What do you base this on? If Alrik simply ordered Alrik not to say aynthing, then Karl probably wouldn't ahve told anyone. Also, Karl didn't live as a Tranquil for long enough to this to matter anyway.

We have been told by David Gaider that the Tranquil have free will and are not bound by Templar orders.
So Alrik telling Karl not to tell anyone would not work and Alrik would also no be able to frighten Karl into silence.

As a Tranquil Karl would be incapable of experiencing fear. But if Karl rationalize that following Alrik's orders is the best course of action, then he would do so. And as a Tranquil Karl would ahve no desire NOT to follow such orders.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 15 janvier 2014 - 08:31 .

[ianvillan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
Karl himself would of told some people, and in a place like the circle and especially one like Kirkwall the story would of spread even if it was in whispers amongst the Mages and Templars, it would of gotten to Orsinio or Meredith.

All Orsinio had to do was question Karl and he would of known the truth, he would definetly of gone to Meredith about it.

What do you base this on? If Alrik simply ordered Alrik not to say aynthing, then Karl probably wouldn't ahve told anyone. Also, Karl didn't live as a Tranquil for long enough to this to matter anyway.

We have been told by David Gaider that the Tranquil have free will and are not bound by Templar orders.
So Alrik telling Karl not to tell anyone would not work and Alrik would also no be able to frighten Karl into silence.

As a Tranquil Karl would be incapable of experiencing fear. But if Karl rationalize that following Alrik's orders, then he would do so. And as a Tranquil Karl would ahve no desire NOT to follow such orders.

If he uses logic as David Gaider said then he would realise that what Alrik is doing is wrong and Illegal and that he should tell others about what happened to him so the correct actions against Alrik could be taken.

But even if he does keep quiet and not go out of his way to tell anyone he would still say the truth if asked.

Karls friends would of asked him what happened even if they had to do it secretly.

[Pasquale1234]

ianvillan wrote...

If he uses logic as David Gaider said then he would realise that what Alrik is doing is wrong and Illegal and that he should tell others about what happened to him so the correct actions against Alrik could be taken.

But even if he does keep quiet and not go out of his way to tell anyone he would still say the truth if asked.

Karls friends would of asked him what happened even if they had to do it secretly.

Even if none of that came to pass, you'd think they would have somehow noticed a mage is missing.

[ianvillan]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

If he uses logic as David Gaider said then he would realise that what Alrik is doing is wrong and Illegal and that he should tell others about what happened to him so the correct actions against Alrik could be taken.

But even if he does keep quiet and not go out of his way to tell anyone he would still say the truth if asked.

Karls friends would of asked him what happened even if they had to do it secretly.

Even if none of that came to pass, you'd think they would have somehow noticed a mage is missing.

Including the Templars who knew Karl well or even in passing. If a Mage that you knew or recognised suddenly turned up illegally Tranquil you would ask around fellow Templars to find out what happened to him especially if they took their vows to protect Mages seriously.

There is no way that making a Mage Tranquil would go unnoticed in the circle.
It must of been known and it was allowed to happen with no punishment.

Alrik and the other Templars were able to get away with the abuses they did because they threatened the Mages with being made Tranquil if they refused or caused trouble.

That would not work if the Mages were confident that they could not be made Tranquil illegally or without Orsinio's say so. But because they knew Alrik was able to do it freely with no punishment they knew he could do it again to them when ever he wanted.

To be able to get away with the threats and abuses Alrik had to have the support and permission of Meredith and the other ranking Templars in the circle.

[Senya]

ianvillan wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

If he uses logic as David Gaider said then he would realise that what Alrik is doing is wrong and Illegal and that he should tell others about what happened to him so the correct actions against Alrik could be taken.

But even if he does keep quiet and not go out of his way to tell anyone he would still say the truth if asked.

Karls friends would of asked him what happened even if they had to do it secretly.

Even if none of that came to pass, you'd think they would have somehow noticed a mage is missing.

Including the Templars who knew Karl well or even in passing. If a Mage that you knew or recognised suddenly turned up illegally Tranquil you would ask around fellow Templars to find out what happened to him especially if they took their vows to protect Mages seriously.

There is no way that making a Mage Tranquil would go unnoticed in the circle.
It must of been known and it was allowed to happen with no punishment.

Alrik and the other Templars were able to get away with the abuses they did because they threatened the Mages with being made Tranquil if they refused or caused trouble.

That would not work if the Mages were confident that they could not be made Tranquil illegally or without Orsinio's say so. But because they knew Alrik was able to do it freely with no punishment they knew he could do it again to them when ever he wanted.

To be able to get away with the threats and abuses Alrik had to have the support and permission of Meredith and the other ranking Templars in the circle.

I think this is evidence of the breakdown of Kirkwall's Circle. I think that is pretty much, if not outright stated by Word of God outside the game, that Kirkwall is not a normal Circle.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Karl was a Tranquil for around what? Two hours? Not a lot of time for others to notice. All the other mages who got turned Tranquil, might have been apprentices, in which case they never would raise any question at all.

[Lord Raijin]

eluvianix wrote...

Invisible Man wrote...

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

My point was this: Anders escaped from the Wardens after a select few of them wanted to give him over to the Templars, even though he had been conscripted under the Right. He killed them, yes, I am aware. But if these Templars and Wardens wanted to supercede the Right, they were working under the radar. So if Anders killed them all, who the hell would have known what had happened? That (A) Anders killed them, and ( that he was possessed. So all any Templar in Kirkwall, including Alrik, could have known about him was that he was a Grey Warden mage who had gone missing.

I'm not buying that the Wardens wouldn't know, and that they wouldn't inform the Templars.

Even if you're right, which I have difficulty with, but even if you change Maleficar to 'merely' Apostate, the point stands. Karl was engaged in criminal conspiracy, so by the letter of the Law his Tranquility was legal.

And again, for people who have poor reading comprehension skills, I said "legal", not "right".  At no time have I said I thought the punishment fit the crime.  Anders got away with solitary confinement eight times, which should be proof enough for anyone that not all Circles are Kirkwall hellholes.  Not that it will stop the usual subjects from claiming otherwise.

as far as I know, making a harrowed mage tranquil for almost any reason is completely illegal under chantry law. (I could be wrong, but I don't think so)

I don't think it's necessarily illegal, if Karl was trying to get out of the tower with the help of maleficar.

Karl was illegally made tranquil and was one of many victims of Ser Otto Alrik.

Despite Meredith's hatred for mages if Karl was to escape from the tower with help of a maleficar I could see her ordering the execution of Karl, not R.o.T.

[TK514]

eluvianix wrote...

Seeing as once he was Tranquil, he helped set the trap for Anders, he does indeed follow orders willingly.

i don't recall the exact quote, but I'm pretty sure Karl outright states that he takes part in the deception because he believes the Templars will help Anders.  So it isn't mindless obedience, it is a considered decision.  

Again, imy memory of the dialog is fuzzy, but that may also be why Karl didn't feel his Tranquility was illegal or improper.  If he viewed it as the Templars helping him control himself, and sees that as a positive outcome, he'd have no reason to report it.

Which does nothing to absolve the social circle of Mages he would no doubt have been part of.  Even the most reclusive person would have to interact with a certain number of people every day in a closed society like the Circle.  Even if he didn't have friends, he would have had other Mages that he interacted with regularly, and they should have noticed he was a Tranquil or missing and mentioned it to someone.  I don't imagine it would be easy to keep a secret in that kind of closed system.

which brings me back to wondering why Orsino didn't make a fuss, unless he was convinced that it was legal.  Meredith I have an easier time with, at least in Karl's isolated case.  She'd have gotten a report that said "Templars Bob, Sam, and Sally were killed, along with one Tranquil, while trying to apprehend a maleficarum," and never even thought to ask who the Tranquil was.