1537 réponses à ce sujet

[ianvillan]

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Seeing as once he was Tranquil, he helped set the trap for Anders, he does indeed follow orders willingly.

i don't recall the exact quote, but I'm pretty sure Karl outright states that he takes part in the deception because he believes the Templars will help Anders.  So it isn't mindless obedience, it is a considered decision.  

Again, imy memory of the dialog is fuzzy, but that may also be why Karl didn't feel his Tranquility was illegal or improper.  If he viewed it as the Templars helping him control himself, and sees that as a positive outcome, he'd have no reason to report it.

Which does nothing to absolve the social circle of Mages he would no doubt have been part of.  Even the most reclusive person would have to interact with a certain number of people every day in a closed society like the Circle.  Even if he didn't have friends, he would have had other Mages that he interacted with regularly, and they should have noticed he was a Tranquil or missing and mentioned it to someone.  I don't imagine it would be easy to keep a secret in that kind of closed system.

which brings me back to wondering why Orsino didn't make a fuss, unless he was convinced that it was legal.  Meredith I have an easier time with, at least in Karl's isolated case.  She'd have gotten a report that said "Templars Bob, Sam, and Sally were killed, along with one Tranquil, while trying to apprehend a maleficarum," and never even thought to ask who the Tranquil was.

Maybe Orsinio did make a fuss and Meredith supported Karl being made Tranquil so he had no chance with her and Ethina probably said she would wait as usual.

Karl knew he was able to control himself so he would not accept that he was made Tranquil for that reason, he also knew it was illegal to be made Tranquil after you went through the harrowing and that it needed the First Enchanters permission so he would not of accepted that it was the right thing to happen and would of told someone.

Alrik was also the sort of person who would of told Karl why he was doing it and gloted about it so Tranquil Karl would of known it was wrong.

Modifié par ianvillan, 15 janvier 2014 - 09:32 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Because Karl was not Tranquil for very long, and once he was dead, alrik could cover up the fact easily.

[TK514]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Karl was illegally made tranquil and was one of many victims of Ser Otto Alrik.

Despite Meredith's hatred for mages if Karl was to escape from the tower with help of a maleficar I could see her ordering the execution of Karl, not R.o.T.

that's a conclusively damning letter, and one I was unaware of.  Even if Karl's crimes warranted Tranquility, performing it without the direction of the KC is foul play.  Though it insinuates that Karl hadn't been Tranquil for long, which might explain why the crime never came to light.  If he was made Tranquil, then almost immediately sent to the Chantry and killed, the cover up becomes simplicity itself.

"Templars Bob, Pat, and Sally, along with Mage Thekla, were killed attempting to apprehend dangerous Apostate/Maleficar.  Sadly, Mage Thekla's body was in no state to transport back to the Circle, so he was given Rites on the scene in the Grand Cathdral to honor his service."

No body, no brand, no uncomfortable questions from Meredith and Orsino.

Modifié par TK514, 15 janvier 2014 - 09:31 .

[The Elder King]

I really doubt Elthina was consulted every time templars wanted to tranquilize someone. Not to mention Grand clerics don't have power on this matter to begin with. The KC and the FE decide about the possibility of a mage becoming a Tranquil, not a Grand Cleric.

[ianvillan]

TK514 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Karl was illegally made tranquil and was one of many victims of Ser Otto Alrik.

Despite Meredith's hatred for mages if Karl was to escape from the tower with help of a maleficar I could see her ordering the execution of Karl, not R.o.T.

that's a conclusively damning letter, and one I was unaware of.  Even if Karl's crimes warranted Tranquility, performing it without the direction of the KC is foul play.  Though it insinuates that Karl hadn't been Tranquil for long, which might explain why the crime never came to light.  If he was made Tranquil, then almost immediately sent to the Chantry and killed, the cover up becomes simplicity itself.

"Templars Bob, Pat, and Sally, along with Mage Thekla, were killed attempting to apprehend dangerous Apostate/Maleficar.  Sadly, Mage Thekla's body was in no state to transport back to the Circle, so he was given Rites on the scene in the Grand Cathdral to honor his service."

No body, no brand, no uncomfortable questions from Meredith and Orsino.

It also proves other Templars  knew what Alrik was doing especially one with a guilty conscience, so the fact of what he had done would of come out even if it was just in wispers amongst the Templars.

[ianvillan]

hhh89 wrote...

I really doubt Elthina was consulted every time templars wanted to tranquilize someone. Not to mention Grand clerics don't have power on this matter to begin with. The KC and the FE decide about the possibility of a mage becoming a Tranquil, not a Grand Cleric.

Ethina is Meredith superior so if Orsinio knew that illegal activity was happening and Meredith was doing nothing about it even supporting it his next course would be to go to Ethina to get her help.

Ethina knew that the Mages were being abused because in act 3 she told the Templars to take Orsinio back to the circle but added after they started moving to treat Orsino nicely.

[TK514]

ianvillan wrote...

It also proves other Templars  knew what Alrik was doing especially one with a guilty conscience, so the fact of what he had done would of come out even if it was just in wispers amongst the Templars.

given that you apparently take the note off the body of the objector, there may not have been any others beyond the crowd you kill who knew.  It would be tragic irony if Anders and Hawke were responsible for preventing  Alrik from being caught sooner because they killed all his original conspirators, including the one willing to object.

[Hellion Rex]

@LordRaijin, damn. Good find.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Pasquale1234 wrote...
That said, both Meredith and the Divine were aware of Ser Alrik's proposed Tranquil Solution.  Either of those authorities should have immediately ousted him for even suggesting it.

No.

Meredith and Orsinio would know the moment Karl spoke or interacted
with anyone, and all they had to do was ask who did it and he would tell
them it was Alrik.

And how do you know the tranqulity was "illegal"?
Alarik could provide falsified evidence and thus the tranqulity, while unjust, would be technicly legal.

And that perfectly explains everything.

I don't know if you are correct I thought that Jowan just thought they
were going to make him Tranquil because he was not strong enough to
survive the harrowing.

But even if what you say is true then if a
mage can be made Tranquil for a suspicion with no proof then the mages
have no chance at being safe in the circle when any Templar could just
say they suspected a mage of blood magic.

Greagoir said he had evidence, altough we don't get to see it as the player.

[Veruin]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Greagoir said he had evidence, altough we don't get to see it as the player.

Considering Jowan WAS a blood mage, I think it's safe to assume that the evidence was actual evidence and not some accusation pulled from his arse.

[Lotion Soronarr]

eluvianix wrote...
My point was this: Anders escaped from the Wardens after a select few of them wanted to give him over to the Templars, even though he had been conscripted under the Right. He killed them, yes, I am aware. But if these Templars and Wardens wanted to supercede the Right, they were working under the radar. So if Anders killed them all, who the hell would have known what had happened?

Except no one was superceeding the right.
The Wardens have the right to conscript you, but they also have the right to boot you out.
It is the WARDENS who called in the templars and it is the WARDENS who wanted to get rid of Anders.

All I am asserting is that Alrik only could have known was that Anders was a Grey Warden mage gone missing, not that he was maleficar or that he was responsible for those deaths.

I'm pretty sure the Wardens would know.
Anders was out cold, so it's highly possible someoen got the word that he got possesed before he woke up.
Also, what do you expect people will conclude when they walk into the tent and find everyone grousomly murdered and the only mage missing?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Veruin wrote...

Considering Jowan WAS a blood mage, I think it's safe to assume that the evidence was actual evidence and not some accusation pulled from his arse.

I don't think we can safely assume that, at all.

But nor should we assume the opposite.

[The Elder King]

@Lotion Soronnar: about Alrik providin false evidence to cover his crimes, it might not work. In the case of Karl, it depends if shown Meredith those evidences before asking permission to tranquilize him. I he tranquilized Karl as he was doing with the female mage in Dissent, his actions would've been still illegal. A normal templar can't, no matter the proofs, tranquilize a mage before the consent of the KC and the FE.

Edit: I forgot to mention that Karl was an Harrowed mages, so Tranquilization is illegal no matter what, unless (maybe) he was a blood mage. 

Modifié par hhh89, 15 janvier 2014 - 11:28 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Meredith and Orsinio would know the moment Karl spoke or interacted
with anyone, and all they had to do was ask who did it and he would tell
them it was Alrik.

And how do you know the tranqulity was "illegal"?
Alarik could provide falsified evidence and thus the tranqulity, while unjust, would be technicly legal.

And that perfectly explains everything.

Isn't it stated that Karl is Harrowed, and thus can't legally be forced into Tranquility regardless?

[Br3admax]

This question answered.

[DarthLaxian]

I would go for "simple"

I would make a mage-state, with portions of land in every country being given to that (meaning it would be a state that is not a single land mass, but has parts all over Thedas) - land that the chantry has, if possible, as they are the ones that made the current system, so they are the ones who have to bare the guilt for the war and pay for the damages and problems arising from that.

all mages would be confined there (like in a circle tower, just with lots of open land around it - land that can be used to make the new country self sufficient in all parts (!)) till they have finished their training and shown that they are no danger (something like a Harrowing would have to take place, just not like that...i should be possible to test without actually risking possession)

after that a mage can leave and make a live for himself - or stay and teach the next generation, do research, craft things etc.

policing the new state would fall to specially trained mages (the new mage-state would be required to train a certain number of those in order to enforce the law, hunt rogues etc.)

as for my "special friends" the templars:

they would still be there...but not as a church organisation (!) or as zealots

the templar teachings would be made public (!) so that everyone can learn their secrets and each town can train a few (!) and the armies of the various countries will probably do that as well (to make fielding mages less effective)

as for blood-magic:

i would have a subject for that (!), even for mindcontrol - why? - if everybody knows it, no one (at least no mage) will have an edge over another anymore (and if the mage-police is trained in it as well, then it's just not such a great weapon anymore)

greetings LAX

[dragonflight288]

ianvillan wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
Also no one suspected that Jowan was a blood mage, in fact no one had any idea what he was going to do.

I don't think that's correct. The whole point of him being made Tranquil was because he had been suspected of looking at some blood magic stuff.

I don't know if you are correct I thought that Jowan just thought they were going to make him Tranquil because he was not strong enough to survive the harrowing.

But even if what you say is true then if a mage can be made Tranquil for a suspicion with no proof then the mages have no chance at being safe in the circle when any Templar could just say they suspected a mage of blood magic.

I don't know if this has been addressed or not because I'm still catching up on reading pages, but I'll address it anyway.

Before telling Irving about Jowan (if you so choose,) you can ask about Jowan being made tranquil and why he's being made tranquil.

Irving specifically says that Gregoire has evidence AND an eye witness that Jowan has been practicing blood magic.

Jowan is a suspected blood mage in the mage origin. Jowan admits that there's a rumor he's a blood mage, and you can hear snippets of that rumor from the apprentices by just walking around. Listening to them, the apprentices say things like

"Jowan's been acting weird lately,"
or
"Did you hear that someone's been practicing blood magic?"

I doubt Jowan was as careful as he thought he was while studying. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DarthLaxian wrote...

as for blood-magic:

i would have a subject for that (!), even for mindcontrol - why? - if everybody knows it, no one (at least no mage) will have an edge over another anymore (and if the mage-police is trained in it as well, then it's just not such a great weapon anymore)

The problem is that apparently, as per World Of Thedas blood magic really does make you evil. (Though I've never read WoT, so either I might be misremembering the post, or the poster might be misinterpreting whatever was said. Or it might be an error in the book, we know it has some.)

[TheKomandorShepard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

DarthLaxian wrote...

as for blood-magic:

i would have a subject for that (!), even for mindcontrol - why? - if everybody knows it, no one (at least no mage) will have an edge over another anymore (and if the mage-police is trained in it as well, then it's just not such a great weapon anymore)

The problem is that apparently, as per World Of Thedas blood magic really does make you evil. (Though I've never read WoT, so either I might be misremembering the post, or the poster might be misinterpreting whatever was said. Or it might be an error in the book, we know it has some.)

I heard that bm only attracts demons (well increases possibility of possession when you are using it) even dg said that blood magic doesn't corrupt you more than any other source of power still they did bad job if they wanted present that in their universe.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 16 janvier 2014 - 12:56 .

[Hellion Rex]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

DarthLaxian wrote...

as for blood-magic:

i would have a subject for that (!), even for mindcontrol - why? - if everybody knows it, no one (at least no mage) will have an edge over another anymore (and if the mage-police is trained in it as well, then it's just not such a great weapon anymore)

The problem is that apparently, as per World Of Thedas blood magic really does make you evil. (Though I've never read WoT, so either I might be misremembering the post, or the poster might be misinterpreting whatever was said. Or it might be an error in the book, we know it has some.)

It's not that it's inherently evil. It's just that to invoke a greater magnitude of power, it requires pain and suffering.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Kill them all, problem solved.


Nailed it.

[Rotward]

DinoSteve wrote...

Kill them all, problem solved.


Nailed it.

And then the mole-men shall inherit the earth! 

[grumpymooselion]

Tear down all institutes that support the Maker. Any being that would allow the blights to continue, in response to actions of a few, is the enemy of all the people, and must be treated as such.

Following that, pass laws that treat users of magic the same as any other armed soldier or citizen, binding them to the laws of the land and having fair trials, judgements and punishments for crimes, overseen by a court of your peers. In that way criminal mages would be subject to the law in a fair way, just as any other citizen that misused their talents, harmed others and so on.

Modifié par Janan Pacha, 16 janvier 2014 - 03:33 .

[BlueMagitek]

Uh, Janan, you know that there really isn't a "trial of peers" thing in most of (if not all of) Thedas, right? You are "tried" by the whim of whoever the Lord is, assuming you're important enough. Otherwise the guards would have reign. Just look at Awakening.

Also, the Blight happened when ya'll broke into the Maker's house yo, why are you hating on the victim?

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Also, the Blight happened when ya'll broke into the Maker's house yo, why are you hating on the victim?

That's only the Chantry's version. Don't mistake it for truth as even the Grey Wardens and the Dwarves, who fight darkspawn regularly, know the truth.

The magisters may have been the first awakened darkspawn but it is still up in the air if they were the first darkspawn entirely. Especially since they wouldn't know how to make broodmothers and can't hear the archdemon song to track them down and start a blight. The Architect couldn't hear it, Corypheus couldn't hear it, the Mother once awakened couldn't hear it, and the Disciples couldn't hear it. 

A dwarven origin codex on darkspawn specifically says they (the darkspawn) came from deep beneath the Deep Roads (like the Primordial Thaig, although that is nothing more than a theory,) and they had guards patrolling all parts of the Deep Roads of their empire, which spanned all of Thedas. Their empire was greater than the Tevinter Imperium's in terms of size. 

The chances of the magisters sneaking underground without the dwarves noticing and building an army are very slim.