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[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...

That's only the Chantry's version. Don't mistake it for truth as even the Grey Wardens and the Dwarves, who fight darkspawn regularly, know the truth.

The magisters may have been the first awakened darkspawn but it is still up in the air if they were the first darkspawn entirely. Especially since they wouldn't know how to make broodmothers and can't hear the archdemon song to track them down and start a blight. The Architect couldn't hear it, Corypheus couldn't hear it, the Mother once awakened couldn't hear it, and the Disciples couldn't hear it. 

A dwarven origin codex on darkspawn specifically says they (the darkspawn) came from deep beneath the Deep Roads (like the Primordial Thaig, although that is nothing more than a theory,) and they had guards patrolling all parts of the Deep Roads of their empire, which spanned all of Thedas. Their empire was greater than the Tevinter Imperium's in terms of size. 

The chances of the magisters sneaking underground without the dwarves noticing and building an army are very slim.

------Point



-----Dwarf Head



Son, the person I was responding to was all up in anti-theist biscuits.  That's why we goin' with the Chantry version.

Besides, we know the Memories be all out of whack, they've been purposely altered, in addition to missing information that the Warden / Warden Commander is able to find on his forays into the Deep Road. 

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

That's only the Chantry's version. Don't mistake it for truth as even the Grey Wardens and the Dwarves, who fight darkspawn regularly, know the truth.

The magisters may have been the first awakened darkspawn but it is still up in the air if they were the first darkspawn entirely. Especially since they wouldn't know how to make broodmothers and can't hear the archdemon song to track them down and start a blight. The Architect couldn't hear it, Corypheus couldn't hear it, the Mother once awakened couldn't hear it, and the Disciples couldn't hear it. 

A dwarven origin codex on darkspawn specifically says they (the darkspawn) came from deep beneath the Deep Roads (like the Primordial Thaig, although that is nothing more than a theory,) and they had guards patrolling all parts of the Deep Roads of their empire, which spanned all of Thedas. Their empire was greater than the Tevinter Imperium's in terms of size. 

The chances of the magisters sneaking underground without the dwarves noticing and building an army are very slim.

------Point



-----Dwarf Head



Son, the person I was responding to was all up in anti-theist biscuits.  That's why we goin' with the Chantry version.

Besides, we know the Memories be all out of whack, they've been purposely altered, in addition to missing information that the Warden / Warden Commander is able to find on his forays into the Deep Road. 

Yes, the memories are not completely reliable. My Warden was stripped from the memories and exiled. The Dwarves cut out their own part in elven genocide when they sheltered the refugees from Arlathan, so I don't put too much stock in the Memories.

But it does lead to the question, if the dwarves of the primeval thaig DID have something to do with it, wouldn't it be possible the dwarves cut that out of their own memories so they wouldn't blame themselves?

As for anti-theist stuff....I've been known to be cynical of the chantry, but I don't think I've been completely dismissive of them in the past....well maybe when I got into more passionate debates and said things without thinking them through all the way, but I hope that hadn't happend that often. 

One Eye.......

[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Yes, the memories are not completely reliable. My Warden was stripped from the memories and exiled. The Dwarves cut out their own part in elven genocide when they sheltered the refugees from Arlathan, so I don't put too much stock in the Memories.

But it does lead to the question, if the dwarves of the primeval thaig DID have something to do with it, wouldn't it be possible the dwarves cut that out of their own memories so they wouldn't blame themselves?

As for anti-theist stuff....I've been known to be cynical of the chantry, but I don't think I've been completely dismissive of them in the past....well maybe when I got into more passionate debates and said things without thinking them through all the way, but I hope that hadn't happend that often. 

One Eye.......

This is going to be my last post tonight, but please trim down the quotes when you do so, you don't need the past 5 there, just the last.

I'm glad we're on the same page then. 

Hmmhmm, if we're just talking about the red lyrium, it's more likely they developed something against the darkspawn, and the lyrium exudes a "do not come here" song, as opposed to the drawing song of the Archdemon, given that their Thaig was deep in the Deep Roads, but untouched by darkspawn, if my memory is correct.  But that's just a postulation for now.  Perhaps I'll have some more tomorrow~

I wasn't talking about you. My my, your ego outsizes your dwarf PC!
It was more trying to give a humorous explanation for the Chantry side of things.  The Maker, according to Chantry lore, left from disappointment.  He'll only come back if they fulfill their goal of having the Chant spread across the world/realm.  He isn't "active", so his allowing the darkspawn to continue isn't reason for worship or to not do so.

[dragonflight288]

I wasn't talking about you. My my, your ego outsizes your dwarf PC! smilie

hahahaha, true.

But even if you weren't talking about me, there may be some people reading this who may dismiss what I have to say because I debated them in the past and may have said something I didn't think through all the way, so I thought it would be prudent to say it nonetheless.

And that red lyrium theory is as good as any others I've heard.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DarthLaxian wrote...

I would go for "simple"

I would make a mage-state, with portions of land in every country being given to that (meaning it would be a state that is not a single land mass, but has parts all over Thedas) - land that the chantry has, if possible, as they are the ones that made the current system, so they are the ones who have to bare the guilt for the war and pay for the damages and problems arising from that.

all mages would be confined there (like in a circle tower, just with lots of open land around it - land that can be used to make the new country self sufficient in all parts (!)) till they have finished their training and shown that they are no danger (something like a Harrowing would have to take place, just not like that...i should be possible to test without actually risking possession)

Is this the real life?

Is this just fantasy?

Caught in a mage dream,

No escape from reality.



Open your eyes,

Look up to the fade and see,

I'm just a poor mage, I need your sympathy,

Because I'm a little crazy, mabye, no?

Little high, little low,

Possesion doesn't matter, life revoles around me,  me.



Mama, just killed a man,
Used blood magic on his his,

He slit his wrists and now he's dead.

Mama, life had just begun,

But now I've gone and thrown it all away.

as for blood-magic:

i would have a subject for that (!), even for mindcontrol - why? - if everybody knows it, no one (at least no mage) will have an edge over another anymore (and if the mage-police is trained in it as well, then it's just not such a great weapon anymore)

So...let's just give nukes (that don't need multiple poeple to arm and operate, don't have failsafes or require any codes, and aren't housed in bunkers guarded by anarmy) to everyone.
WHAT COULD POSSIBLY HAPPEN?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

DarthLaxian wrote...

as for blood-magic:

i would have a subject for that (!), even for mindcontrol - why? - if everybody knows it, no one (at least no mage) will have an edge over another anymore (and if the mage-police is trained in it as well, then it's just not such a great weapon anymore)

The problem is that apparently, as per World Of Thedas blood magic really does make you evil. (Though I've never read WoT, so either I might be misremembering the post, or the poster might be misinterpreting whatever was said. Or it might be an error in the book, we know it has some.)

I heard that bm only attracts demons (well increases possibility of possession when you are using it) even dg said that blood magic doesn't corrupt you more than any other source of power still they did bad job if they wanted present that in their universe.

Not really. Jowan is a moron and Merill is heedless, but neither of these is truly a moral problem. In fact, since Merill knowingly risks her life for the benefit of others, even bringing Hawke as a failsafe if she accidentally turns into a homicidal monster, you could argue she's got morality (if not common sense) down better than most of Kirkwall. And during the bugged quest which was supposed to show what Jowan's doing with his newfound freedom, he uses it and his magic to protect a crowd of refugees. It's true we have a lot of counterexamples, but Gaider notes that while the magic in and of itself isn't corrupting, the temptation to go evil when you have powers that work so well for that purpose is pretty intense.

On the other hand, I was mostly wondering what WoT does to retcon this, if anything.

eluvianix wrote...

It's not that it's inherently evil. It's just that to invoke a greater magnitude of power, it requires pain and suffering.

I thought I read someone's post that it actively caused you to become less morally good, and that they got this from WoT. If this is all that's there, though, I think they must have interpreted it wrong. (Assuming I remember the post right.) I mean, we already knew this...

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 16 janvier 2014 - 12:55 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The only thing WoT specifies about Blood Magic is that it draws its power from suffering and death, and that the influence of blood magic tends to be more corrupting than regular magic.

[dragonflight288]

Blood magic draws power from blood, but its power increases with increased suffering and death.

[Lord Raijin]

ianvillan wrote...

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Seeing as once he was Tranquil, he helped set the trap for Anders, he does indeed follow orders willingly.

i don't recall the exact quote, but I'm pretty sure Karl outright states that he takes part in the deception because he believes the Templars will help Anders.  So it isn't mindless obedience, it is a considered decision.  

Again, imy memory of the dialog is fuzzy, but that may also be why Karl didn't feel his Tranquility was illegal or improper.  If he viewed it as the Templars helping him control himself, and sees that as a positive outcome, he'd have no reason to report it.

Which does nothing to absolve the social circle of Mages he would no doubt have been part of.  Even the most reclusive person would have to interact with a certain number of people every day in a closed society like the Circle.  Even if he didn't have friends, he would have had other Mages that he interacted with regularly, and they should have noticed he was a Tranquil or missing and mentioned it to someone.  I don't imagine it would be easy to keep a secret in that kind of closed system.

which brings me back to wondering why Orsino didn't make a fuss, unless he was convinced that it was legal.  Meredith I have an easier time with, at least in Karl's isolated case.  She'd have gotten a report that said "Templars Bob, Sam, and Sally were killed, along with one Tranquil, while trying to apprehend a maleficarum," and never even thought to ask who the Tranquil was.

Maybe Orsinio did make a fuss and Meredith supported Karl being made Tranquil so he had no chance with her and Ethina probably said she would wait as usual.

Karl knew he was able to control himself so he would not accept that he was made Tranquil for that reason, he also knew it was illegal to be made Tranquil after you went through the harrowing and that it needed the First Enchanters permission so he would not of accepted that it was the right thing to happen and would of told someone.

Alrik was also the sort of person who would of told Karl why he was doing it and gloted about it so Tranquil Karl would of known it was wrong.

Once Meredith became the Knight-Commander things rapidly changed, and not for the better either. She had to have it her way or it doesn't happen at all. The relationship between the First Enchanter  and the Knight-Commander was nearly non-existant. The true power in Kirkwall was not of the Viscount but the Templar order. The Nobilities are forced to submit themselves to the Templar order in order for them to be even qualify to become the next Viscount of Kirkwall. I suppose that is the fault of the previous Viscount who actually stood up for himself and decided that the Templar's needed to be exiled from his city, and fought for it until he was captured and then imprison where he was later poisoned.

Even if Orsino did make a fuss it wouldn't matter anyways because Meredith has the ultimate say so in what goes on in the Circle, and she knows it too. I do not think for a moment that she would agreed to having Karl to be made tranquil... even if she knew that he associated himself with a blood mage, and was going to escape from the Circle. Base on what we've seen in the game is that Meredith doesn't order the tranqulity of unruley mages but to flat out execute them... like the virgin mage who escaped and later went to the hanged man to lose his virginity.

“That's right. Once you're Tranquil, you'll do anything I ask.” - Ser Otto Alrik

Those were the words that came out of this Templar Lieutenant's mouth as he tracked down a woman mage who escaped from the circle to be with her mother. Lets not forget the incident between Helena and Jaken. I know David mention that Tranquils have free will of their own, and that they do not lose their memories, but that doesn't explain the behavior patterns of these two tranquils who seem to have a different personality... especially since Karl is the first tranquil who ever expressed the horrors of being a tranquil as Anders/Justice was a flashing becon to the fade therefour giving him a temporary cure. Karl nearly begged Anders to kill him before he turns back into a zombified tranquil. You then have Pharamond who essentinally expressed same emotions as Karl did when he was scheduled to be tranqulized again by the request of Lord Seeker.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 16 janvier 2014 - 01:44 .

[Magdalena11]

@TK514 - they don't really go into it in game but the books mention a couple times that it is not unusual for mages to go missing without notice. They may be sent on assignment or to a different circle at any hour and no explanation is given for disappearances. You see that a little depending on which questions you ask Jowan in the mage origin and during Wynne's Regret when Wynne talks about Anneirin's presumed death.

[Wothen]

Answering the thread main question after roughly 60 pages =P

A costly and long-time solution

All circles within cities are to be relocated into the countryside (build new ones if needed)
These new/relocated circles will have walls built in the vicinities of the circle, giving the mages ample space to breath some fresh air and walk.
A templar-like order is made, but with far less presence, they are only meant to man the aforementioned walls and control who goes in and out, a single order representative being inside the circle to not keep the order blind.
Talented mages are to be chosen and sent towards academies outside the circle, where they are indoctrinated in the chantry and the templar-like order ways, then they are sent back and join a rank of mages that are responsible for the maintenance of order inside the circle and the teaching of students, basically a less agressive templar presence mixed with the idea of enchanters.

Blood vials are to be stored outside the circle walls, where the templar-like order resides
The perfomance and behavior of the apprentices should dictate its freedoms, ranging from going outside the tower to temporary passes to go out of the walled region
All books that even quotes blood magic or forbidden magic should be relocated to chantry based libraries on capitals requiring permission from chantry high personnel to be acessed

...ok maybe I went too far on the brain-storming

Modifié par Wothen, 16 janvier 2014 - 02:09 .

[dragonflight288]

Wothen wrote...

Answering the thread main question after roughly 60 pages =P

A costly and long-time solution

All circles within cities are to be relocated into the countryside (build new ones if needed)
These new/relocated circles will have walls built in the vicinities of the circle, giving the mages ample space to breath some fresh air and walk.
A templar-like order is made, but with far less presence, they are only meant to man the aforementioned walls and control who goes in and out, a single order representative being inside the circle to not keep the order blind.
Talented mages are to be chosen and sent towards academies outside the circle, where they are indoctrinated in the chantry and the templar-like order ways, then they are sent back and join a rank of mages that are responsible for the maintenance of order inside the circle and the teaching of students, basically a less agressive templar presence mixed with the idea of enchanters.

Blood vials are to be stored outside the circle walls, where the templar-like order resides
The perfomance and behavior of the apprentices should dictate its freedoms, ranging from going outside the tower to temporary passes to go out of the walled region
All books that even quotes blood magic or forbidden magic should be relocated to chantry based libraries on capitals requiring permission from chantry high personnel to be acessed

...ok maybe I went too far on the brain-storming

No no, keep going. *taking notes*

[Uccio]

The only real solution is to Tevinter Imperium to take control all of Thedas once more and rule it with a Iron Fist.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Blood magic draws power from blood, but its power increases with increased suffering and death.

Whatever makes you sleep at night.

WoT makes it perfectly clear that Blood Magic draws its power from the manner of how the blood was spilled. The more violent and suffering caused, the more powerful the magic.

[Uccio]

^ I was under the impression that this information was added later on to the codex to make blood magic more 'evil'. Not cool if it is true.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Blood magic draws power from blood, but its power increases with increased suffering and death.

Whatever makes you sleep at night.

WoT makes it perfectly clear that Blood Magic draws its power from the manner of how the blood was spilled. The more violent and suffering caused, the more powerful the magic.

That is exactly what he said.

[dragonflight288]

EDIT: Eluvianix already responded for me. 

Emperor, did you only read the first part of my post, but glossed over the rest? You and I essentially said the same thing. 

Modifié par dragonflight288, 16 janvier 2014 - 02:57 .

[Veruin]

Ukki wrote...

^ I was under the impression that this information was added later on to the codex to make blood magic more 'evil'. Not cool if it is true.

If it was, it wouldn't surprise me.  Since it was probably added to address the large amount of players who think it's no big deal.  (Granted a lot of said players probably don't bothering immersing themselves in the lore in the first place, so this additional tidbit would be lost on them)

[Br3admax]

I don't see why it would matter when it was added on. Lore is lore.

[Hellion Rex]

Honestly, I had thought that what they had "added on" was the a part of the original lore anyways.

[Pasquale1234]

Veruin wrote...

Ukki wrote...

^ I was under the impression that this information was added later on to the codex to make blood magic more 'evil'. Not cool if it is true.

If it was, it wouldn't surprise me.  Since it was probably added to address the large amount of players who think it's no big deal.  (Granted a lot of said players probably don't bothering immersing themselves in the lore in the first place, so this additional tidbit would be lost on them)

Likely related to gameplay / lore separation.  The specs for blood mage, reaver, and the like are available sans consequences - so it's no surprise that a lot of players don't understand (or don't care about) the lore associated with them.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


Not really. Jowan is a moron and Merill is heedless, but neither of these is truly a moral problem. In fact, since Merill knowingly risks her life for the benefit of others, even bringing Hawke as a failsafe if she accidentally turns into a homicidal monster, you could argue she's got morality (if not common sense) down better than most of Kirkwall. And during the bugged quest which was supposed to show what Jowan's doing with his newfound freedom, he uses it and his magic to protect a crowd of refugees. It's true we have a lot of counterexamples, but Gaider notes that while the magic in and of itself isn't corrupting, the temptation to go evil when you have powers that work so well for that purpose is pretty intense.

On the other hand, I was mostly wondering what WoT does to retcon this, if anything.

Well my point was that magic isn't corrupts in any magical way just corrupts just as any source of power on that scale for example super powers it may or not corrupt person.Yet da handles that very badly making almost every blood mage from sociopath to lunatic with exceptions as merril (moron) , jowan (moron) , alain (moron) and malcolm (smart).So ultimately that blood magic don't make you evil (which in 99 % examples we saw is untrue) don't live up to their universe. 

[Uccio]

Br3ad wrote...

I don't see why it would matter when it was added on. Lore is lore.

It does if there is a obvious effort to turn the gamer against blood magic just because it was not rejected in its early form.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EDIT: Eluvianix already responded for me. 

Emperor, did you only read the first part of my post, but glossed over the rest? You and I essentially said the same thing. 

Our emphazis was on two different aspects of it. You said the power is in the blood itself, I think the power is in the violence.

For instance I don't think there is any power in menstrual blood or a common nosebleed as a result of a sneeze.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EDIT: Eluvianix already responded for me. 

Emperor, did you only read the first part of my post, but glossed over the rest? You and I essentially said the same thing. 

Our emphazis was on two different aspects of it. You said the power is in the blood itself, I think the power is in the violence.

For instance I don't think there is any power in menstrual blood or a common nosebleed as a result of a sneeze.

I disagree on the bolded. I think there is power in any living blood, but you obviously get a hell of a lot more power out blood shed through pain, suffering, and death.