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What is YOUR solution to the mage and Templar problem?


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#151
Pasquale1234

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The Woldan wrote..

Dramatically increase the numbers of templars so they vastly outnumber mages. (Whats the percentage of children that are born with magic abilities in Thedas? 5%? Can't be that many. )
Build a templar garrison in every town, turn all the townsfolk and regular soldiers into minuteman templar reservists trained in revealing and combating dangerous and insurgent mages.


You'd be creating a world full of addle-brained lyrium addicts.  See: Samson and Ser Roderick for some examples.

Not to mention - I'd be surprised if the dwarves could keep up with the lyrium demand.

#152
Ianamus

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I'd change the circles so that they are led by senior mages (mages who have completed the harrowing), with the Templars acting as a policing force rather than the ones running the circle. All mages have to attend and study, blood magic is still prohibited.

If a mage manages to pass the harrowing they are free to work/live wherever they want, although they must meet with Templars at least twice a month to check that they are not abusing their abilities. Mages who are not strong enough/ not willing to take the Harrowing must remain in the circle permanently.

I think it would help the templar order to actually allow mages to join. If a mage has passed the harrowing, performs extraordinarily well and are well-trusted they should be allowed to join, using anti-magic spells to police other mages. 

Circles will have three leader roles: first enchanter, knight commander, and a third who is neither a mage or a templar to act as an impartial middle-ground. This could be a high-ranking chantry member or a high ranking member of the country the circle belongs to. It is important that this person has no real bias towards either group. Any important decision has to be agreed upon by at least two of these people.

Modifié par EJ107, 07 janvier 2014 - 12:07 .

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#153
Iakus

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I don't think there will ever be a real solution until a an effective counter to blood magic is developed and the Veil gets repaired enough to reduce/eliminate the threat of demonic possession.

#154
Angrywolves

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woldan said:

Dramatically increase the numbers of templars so they vastly outnumber mages

clone templars.Rotfl.Would only cause more issues.

#155
Sylvius the Mad

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I'd make circle membership voluntary.

#156
TheKomandorShepard

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EJ107 wrote...

I'd change the circles so that they are led by senior mages (mages who have completed the harrowing), with the Templars acting as a policing force rather than the ones running the circle. All mages have to attend and study, blood magic is still prohibited.

If a mage manages to pass the harrowing they are free to work/live wherever they want, although they must meet with Templars at least twice a month to check that they are not abusing their abilities. Mages who are not strong enough/ not willing to take the Harrowing must remain in the circle permanently.

I think it would help the templar order to actually allow mages to join. If a mage has passed the harrowing, performs extraordinarily well and are well-trusted they should be allowed to join, using anti-magic spells to police other mages. 

Circles will have three leader roles: first enchanter, knight commander, and a third who is neither a mage or a templar to act as an impartial middle-ground. This could be a high-ranking chantry member or a high ranking member of the country the circle belongs to. It is important that this person has no real bias towards either group. Any important decision has to be agreed upon by at least two of these people.


1.Even mage who manages pass harrowing still is susceptible on possession in any moment of their life... harrowing is luck based test nothing more freeing them is stupid.Yes it is great idea keep mages who are prone (because they are weak) to possession in one place...

2.Yeah because chantry is neutral (my a**) chantry is pro-templar nothing more nothing less great idea like seeker ups they were pro-templar as well :devil: .

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'd make circle membership voluntary.


Image IPB

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 07 janvier 2014 - 12:21 .


#157
Sylvius the Mad

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TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'd make circle membership voluntary.


Image IPB

If you want to use the circle system to keep an eye on the mages, then make the circle system attractive to mages.

Imprisoning them is not an acceptable solution.

#158
TheKomandorShepard

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...
If you want to use the circle system to keep an eye on the mages, then make the circle system attractive to mages.

Imprisoning them is not an acceptable solution.


What is point of circle if it isn't enforced? 

I mean hey walking nuclear bomb do you want be member of my school?
Nahh
Okay.

I mean you are freeing them and let become abomnations...

#159
Ianamus

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TheKomandorShepard wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

I'd change the circles so that they are led by senior mages (mages who have completed the harrowing), with the Templars acting as a policing force rather than the ones running the circle. All mages have to attend and study, blood magic is still prohibited.

If a mage manages to pass the harrowing they are free to work/live wherever they want, although they must meet with Templars at least twice a month to check that they are not abusing their abilities. Mages who are not strong enough/ not willing to take the Harrowing must remain in the circle permanently.

I think it would help the templar order to actually allow mages to join. If a mage has passed the harrowing, performs extraordinarily well and are well-trusted they should be allowed to join, using anti-magic spells to police other mages. 

Circles will have three leader roles: first enchanter, knight commander, and a third who is neither a mage or a templar to act as an impartial middle-ground. This could be a high-ranking chantry member or a high ranking member of the country the circle belongs to. It is important that this person has no real bias towards either group. Any important decision has to be agreed upon by at least two of these people.


1.Even mage who manages pass harrowing still is susceptible on possession in any moment of their life... harrowing is luck based test nothing more freeing them is stupid.Yes it is great idea keep mages who are prone (because they are weak) to possession in one place...

2.Yeah because chantry is neutral (my a**) chantry is pro-templar nothing more nothing less great idea like seeker ups they were pro-templar as well :devil: .


If a mage passes the Harrowing it proves that they are able to resist possesion, and by that point the mage will have learnt enough in the circle to have at least decent control over their powers. Therefore it it safe to give them more freedom. They would still be monitered, just less frequently. Besides, any mage is always at risk of becoming an abomination, but the chance for a well trained mage who passed the harrowing is very low, and there is nothing to be gained shutting such a potentially productive person away. 

I don't see how anyone could call the chantry pro-templar at the moment. One of the reasons the templars revolted was that the divine herself was carrying out secret research with the mages about a cure for tranquility behind the Templar's back. 

Modifié par EJ107, 07 janvier 2014 - 12:41 .


#160
Ianamus

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If you want to use the circle system to keep an eye on the mages, then make the circle system attractive to mages.

Imprisoning them is not an acceptable solution.


The main issue with mage freedom is lazy or weak mages who do not have sufficient control over their powers or the knowledge/willpower to resist demons being possesed. 

The only way to solve that issue is mandatory training, and since there can't be a senior mage in every small village forcing people to stay somewhere they can recieve proper training is necessary.

If said training is voluntary then the very people who need it the most (those who are reckless or lazy) will reject it. 

Modifié par EJ107, 07 janvier 2014 - 12:46 .


#161
TheKomandorShepard

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EJ107 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

I'd change the circles so that they are led by senior mages (mages who have completed the harrowing), with the Templars acting as a policing force rather than the ones running the circle. All mages have to attend and study, blood magic is still prohibited.

If a mage manages to pass the harrowing they are free to work/live wherever they want, although they must meet with Templars at least twice a month to check that they are not abusing their abilities. Mages who are not strong enough/ not willing to take the Harrowing must remain in the circle permanently.

I think it would help the templar order to actually allow mages to join. If a mage has passed the harrowing, performs extraordinarily well and are well-trusted they should be allowed to join, using anti-magic spells to police other mages. 

Circles will have three leader roles: first enchanter, knight commander, and a third who is neither a mage or a templar to act as an impartial middle-ground. This could be a high-ranking chantry member or a high ranking member of the country the circle belongs to. It is important that this person has no real bias towards either group. Any important decision has to be agreed upon by at least two of these people.


1.Even mage who manages pass harrowing still is susceptible on possession in any moment of their life... harrowing is luck based test nothing more freeing them is stupid.Yes it is great idea keep mages who are prone (because they are weak) to possession in one place...

2.Yeah because chantry is neutral (my a**) chantry is pro-templar nothing more nothing less great idea like seeker ups they were pro-templar as well :devil: .


If a mage passes the Harrowing it proves that they are able to resist possesion, and by that point the mage will have learnt enough in the circle to have at least decent control over their powers. Therefore it it safe to give them more freedom. They would still be monitered, just less frequently. Besides, any mage is always at risk of becoming an abomination, but the chance for a well trained mage who passed the harrowing is very low, and there is no use shutting such a potentially productive person away. 

I don't see how anyone could call the chantry pro-templar when the whole reason the templars revolted was that the divine herself was carrying out secret research with the mages about a cure for tranquility behind the Templar's back. 


No that only proved they were able to resist this time thanks to luck depending on what kind demon they will face i doubt that any student would handle pride demon outisde almighty warden.60^ % in da mages were walking abomnation ignoring insane blood mages i think anders is best example... As far i saw very few productive acts done by mages and rly many destructive acts done by mages... 

Divine isn't very popular for that heck she can't even support mages without hiding in asunder most chantry clergy would burn mages or just gave knigt-commander full control like elthina to abuse mages counting on maker intervention... 

#162
Sylvius the Mad

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EJ107 wrote...

If said training is voluntary then the very people who need it the most (those who are reckless or lazy) will reject it. 

Unless that training is made more appealing to them.

#163
Sylvius the Mad

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TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
If you want to use the circle system to keep an eye on the mages, then make the circle system attractive to mages.

Imprisoning them is not an acceptable solution.


What is point of circle if it isn't enforced?

Individual liberty.

If you want the mages to stay in your circle so you can watch them, you need to give them a good reason to do so.

Offer free training.  Pay them.  Just don't force them.  That's never okay.

#164
Ianamus

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

If said training is voluntary then the very people who need it the most (those who are reckless or lazy) will reject it. 

Unless that training is made more appealing to them.


But mage training is required from a very young age, far younger than somebody could voluntarily decide to join the circle. 

We've had two cases of children with magical powers whose parents refused to let them go to the circle- one was Merediths sister, and resulting in her becoming an abomination and killing her entire village, and the other was Conor- and he created an undead army that almost destoryed a town. 

No matter how nice the circle looks and advertises itself there would always be a small rural family who do not want to let go of their child, or a mother like Isolde who is desperate not to have their child taken away, and from what we've seen so far it will inevitably end in disaster. 

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Offer free training.  Pay them.  Just don't force them.  That's never okay.


It's impossible to say for certain, but from what we've seen so far in Dragon Age untrained mages have a near 100% rate of being possesed. If your powers are that dangerous then training has to be forced, as it only takes one person refusing training, or one persons parents refusing their child training, to put countless lives at risk. 

Modifié par EJ107, 07 janvier 2014 - 01:16 .


#165
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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This was the subject of one of my Eureka threads. My solution? Have a tranquil mage choose. A tranquil mage has, if I understand correctly, "lost" their emotions. They don't have an emotional stake in the situation, like other mages. In addition, because they don't have emotions, they don't "fear," Templars in particular. I believe a Tranquil mage would provide the closest thing to an unbiased determination on the matter.

#166
Magdalena11

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EntropicAngel wrote...

This was the subject of one of my Eureka threads. My solution? Have a tranquil mage choose. A tranquil mage has, if I understand correctly, "lost" their emotions. They don't have an emotional stake in the situation, like other mages. In addition, because they don't have emotions, they don't "fear," Templars in particular. I believe a Tranquil mage would provide the closest thing to an unbiased determination on the matter.


That's a good thought.  Have you read Asunder and if so what's your opinion on the free will the tranquil showed Wynne?  Not Pharamond, the nameless one in the spire who helped her get to the phyllacteries.

#167
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Magdalena11 wrote...

That's a good thought.  Have you read Asunder and if so what's your opinion on the free will the tranquil showed Wynne?  Not Pharamond, the nameless one in the spire who helped her get to the phyllacteries.


I haven't read any of the DA books. However, if that's the situation where the mage looks at her and comments about people THINKING that Tranquil don't have free will--I've heard about it, and I find it very interesting. Tells me that Gaider is defining Tranquil a lot deeper (and more ambiguous, morally) than some on the boards are.

#168
Thomas Andresen

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But mage training is required from a very young age, far younger than somebody could voluntarily decide to join the circle.

To use a real world parallel, in most countries, schooling, public or private, are technically voluntary, but since a child isn't considered old enough to volunteer by themselves, parents are not only allowed, but obligated to make that choice for them. That schooling is made obligatory as a societal requirement is secondary; it's not a lawful requirement. Most parents are smart enough to recognise it as a stupid idea, however.

I'd venture to say that, in our society, ignorance is just as dangerous, if not more so, than the threat of blood mages is to the Thedan society.

#169
Ianamus

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Thomas Andresen wrote...

But mage training is required from a very young age, far younger than somebody could voluntarily decide to join the circle.

To use a real world parallel, in most countries, schooling, public or private, are technically voluntary, but since a child isn't considered old enough to volunteer by themselves, parents are not only allowed, but obligated to make that choice for them. That schooling is made obligatory as a societal requirement is secondary; it's not a lawful requirement. Most parents are smart enough to recognise it as a stupid idea, however.

I'd venture to say that, in our society, ignorance is just as dangerous, if not more so, than the threat of blood mages is to the Thedan society.


It's an interesting parallel. But children who do not go to school are usually not capable of turning into a monster and killing up to sixty people or summoning a horde of undead due to their ignorance, and there are schools in most towns and villages, while there are few places mages can train- so the children would have to be sent further away. 

It's got me thinking about it from a different perspective though. Is it right to force a mage child to train if they don't want to leave their family or don't want to undergo training (but their family wants them to)? 

If it is, then why is it right to force a child to undergo training but not an adult? Both are equally at risk from their powers and are equally risking those around them. I understand children may not be able to fully understand the dangers of not undergoing training, but is an adult not caring about the dangers that different to a child not understanding them? 

Modifié par EJ107, 07 janvier 2014 - 01:48 .


#170
Thomas Andresen

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It's an interesting parallel. But children who do not go to school are usually not capable of turning into a monster and killing up to sixty people or summoning a horde of undead due to their ignorance, and there are schools in most towns and villages, while there are few places mages can train- so the children would have to be sent further away.

You seem to be reading me a little too literally.

The danger of ignorance in this Age is not quite so literal, but it certainly is significant. Making schools a lawful requirement might be a desirable solution, if it wasn't already proven to be completely unnecessary.

Many of the problems encountered in the Middle Ages was not because the solutions to them had yet to be invented, but rather because the system that might have prevented them had crumbled. A lack of infrastructure after the fall of Rome lead to increasing ignorance, in a period during which the knowledge previously gained would have been lost forever, if not for the Arabic scholars preserving it. Can you imagine where we'd be if we didn't have the works of Socrates, Plato or Aristotle to build our understanding of science upon? I doubt it.

Let me deal with the rest of you post as well.

Is it right to force a mage child to train if they don't want to leave their family or don't want to undergo training (but their family wants them to)?

It is. A child cannot be expected to make an informed decision about something like this, lacking the years of perspective.

If it is, then why is it right to force a child to undergo training but not an adult? Both are equally at risk from their powers and are equally risking those around them.

Because an adult should be expected to own up to their own idiocy. Parents are the ones who are supposed to own up to their children until the children are old enough to be considered adults themselves, by societal norms usually. Even if some parents and bleeding hearts seem to forget this.

I understand children may not be able to fully understand the dangers of not undergoing training, but is an adult not caring about the dangers that different to a child not understanding them?

An adult not caring about the dangers may or may not fall prey to them, and if they do, it's something that could and should be dealt with on an individual basis, if and when it happens. A child who doesn't understand can, through schooling, be made to understand.

Modifié par Thomas Andresen, 07 janvier 2014 - 02:18 .


#171
MisterJB

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Mages would establish their own villages that would fall under the authority of the king of the nation they reside in but would be independent from nobles. The mages would understand that they would be forbidden from becoming involved in industry; which would address the possibility of mages becoming wealthy enough to do anything they wish; and that their sole duty would be acting as both mercenary units as well as the standing armies of the larger countries they reside in.

These villages would answer to independent contracts; and they would be accompanied by Templars; who would be maintained by either the kings or the Chantry; just in case; and they would be financed by their kings; which means that, if a village gets unruly, the kings can, quite simply, starve them out by ceasing the funds but also means that the kings have an interest in keeping them functional should a war break out; and, in the eventuality of a war, it would be the mages who would have the duty to fight to defend the nation and, again, they would be accompanied by the Templars.
It would be forbidden for mages and non-mages to live amongst each other. But within the villages, the mages would be free to establish what laws and rule they wish so long as they obey the most fundamental ones that apply to all villages such as, for example, the prohibition of any form of industry.
Basically, they would become isolated banns with special rules.

Of course, I can already see several problems with this system; such as the mages having the incentive to cause conflict in order for them to maintain their importance; but it is the best I can come up at this point.

Otherwise, the pre-war system with better oversight to prevent abuses of power.

Modifié par MisterJB, 07 janvier 2014 - 02:09 .


#172
Hellion Rex

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MisterJB wrote...

Mages would establish their own villages that would fall under the authority of the king of the nation they reside in but would be independent from nobles. The mages would understand that they would be forbidden from becoming involved in industry; which would address the possibility of mages becoming wealthy enough to do anything they wish; and that their sole duty would be acting as both mercenary units as well as the standing armies of the larger countries they reside in.

These villages would answer to independent contracts; and they would be accompanied by Templars; who would be maintained by either the kings or the Chantry; just in case; and they would be financed by their kings; which means that, if a village gets unruly, the kings can, quite simply, starve them out by ceasing the funds but also means that the kings have an interest in keeping them functional should a war break out; and, in the eventuality of a war, it would be the mages who would have the duty to fight to defend the nation and, again, they would be accompanied by the Templars.
It would be forbidden for mages and non-mages to live amongst each other. But within the villages, the mages would be free to establish what laws and rule they wish so long as they obey the most fundamental ones that apply to all villages such as, for example, the prohibition of any form of industry.
Basically, they would become isolated banns with special rules.

Of course, I can already see several problems with this system; such as the mages having the incentive to cause conflict in order for them to maintain their importance; but it is the best I can come up at this point.

Otherwise, the pre-war system with better oversight to prevent abuses of power.

You would possibly advocate nixing the Chantry's involvement entirely?

#173
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A mage supporter would argue that preventing even the possibility of wealth is wrong; that wealth alone shouldn't mean that they can do anything they wish, and thus, mages should be allowed in industry.

#174
Hellion Rex

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EntropicAngel wrote...

A mage supporter would argue that preventing even the possibility of wealth is wrong; that wealth alone shouldn't mean that they can do anything they wish, and thus, mages should be allowed in industry.

Is that what you advoacte?

#175
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eluvianix wrote...

Is that what you advoacte?


I'm not a mage supporter.

Not a Templar supporter either. Just try to be unbiased, and I noticed that when reading his statement.