1537 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
You would possibly advocate nixing the Chantry's involvement entirely?

I defend the Chantry because people in the forums often exaggerate how corrupt it is and because it is, currently, the only international organization in Thedas with enough influence to control the mages of Southern Thedas. In my suggestion, mages would be rather nationalized, therefore, if the king is capable of producing Templars and controlling his mages, then there is no real reason for the Chantry to be involved.
If, for instance, a monarch has no means to produce the Templars necessary to keep these mage villages under control, the Chantry could provide the income.

EntropicAngel wrote...

A mage supporter would argue that preventing even the possibility of wealth is wrong; that wealth alone shouldn't mean that they can do anything they wish, and thus, mages should be allowed in industry.

What I suggest would not prevent the possibility of wealth; it would limit it to manageable numbers.
Having the mages sole source of income be paid contracts would turn them into mercenaries, certainly, but mercenary companies have been capable of providing for themselves. Mages would have sufficient income to survive, they would play a role in society and they would not infringe upon other avenues of income that non-mages require to maintain their own livelihood and independence.
If, say, contracts became too low for a certain village, then it would still be in the best interest of the monarchs and nobles to ensure their extremely capable weapons are not rusty in case a war breaks and they would help maintain said villages so, the mages wouldn't just starve.
And that works both ways, should a village become unruly, the monarch could simply cease all contracts and starve them until they are willing to negotiate.

[lordsaren101]

The solution is simple. Kill all templars, destroy the chantry and all trace of Andrastrianism. Reinstate worship of the Old Gods, and let Tevinter reclaim their rightful territories.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
You would possibly advocate nixing the Chantry's involvement entirely?

I defend the Chantry because people in the forums often exaggerate how corrupt it is and because it is, currently, the only international organization in Thedas with enough influence to control the mages of Southern Thedas. In my suggestion, mages would be rather nationalized, therefore, if the king is capable of producing Templars and controlling his mages, then there is no real reason for the Chantry to be involved.
If, for instance, a monarch has no means to produce the Templars necessary to keep these mage villages under control, the Chantry could provide the income.

I am finding myself interested and curious. How would you deal with Tranquility and Annulment? Each mage "village" would have its own contingent of Templars?

[DarthSliver]

Start a new Order to replace Templars, one that is run my the ruling King in the country. Get rid of the Chantry if they are content to disagree, their religion is founded on against the mages so the mages need a nonbias ruling faction over it. Instead of the Circle system each Mage will get an escort, someone to make sure they arent fiddling with Demonic stuff. There would only be place for the mages until they can control their magic abilities, getting the escort would be their free reign on society. The system would support freedom for the mages, and mages wouldnt have to live in fear of being abuse their actions would be their own undoing.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
I am finding myself interested and curious. How would you deal with Tranquility and Annulment? Each mage "village" would have its own contingent of Templars?

My first thought was that Templars would simply watch the border of these villages or bans if you wish to make sure that mages are not leaving on unofficial business and accompany mages while they fulfill their contracts (for example, if a wealthy merchant whishes for protection for himself and his goods during a trip, both mages and Templars would fulfill this duty) but that inside the villages, the mages decide their own rules. If they wish to enforce the Rite of Tranquility, that's their business but if a mage leaves and is captured by Templars, then that falls entirely under their jurisdiction.

Of course, this raises some concerns. If there are no Templars around, what began as 2 Abominations, could suddenly become a 100. But, if we keep a contingent of Templars in these villages strong enough to fight dozens of Abominations, then it is inevitable they will contend with the mages for authority within the villages which means we revert back to the original problem of mages and Templars being at each other's throat.
It might be preferable to trust that if there is a chance of Abominations spilling into other banns, that the mages would ask for help; much like the people of Redcliff would have asked for help during the Connor had there been anyone free to; while there is a way of avoiding every single mage being possessed.
Having a crystal ball with the First Enchanter and one with the King and another with the Knight-Commander would allow for quick communication and rapid organization of reinforcements.
Of course, to Annul these villages would be just like purging the entire populations of other banns. It can happen, who's gonna tell the king he shouldn't?

So, basically, pay the taxes, don't leave the village without official business, restrict your services to contracts approved by the monarchy, come when the king summons and you're free to set the laws within your villages.

[MisterJB]

EntropicAngel wrote...
"Sufficient income to survive" isn't the same thing as wealth.

But I'm just spitballing, so I'll stop.

Then the pro-mage argument becomes not just "mages should have basic human freedoms" but rather "mages should be free AND rich."
And that is when it becomes very unreasonable, in my opinion at least. I think the system I proposed accounts for the necessity of mages to feel that they are useful to society while also attempting to ensure mages won't just supplant non-mages in all fields of work and thus become the dominant class in said society.

[The Baconer]

I can see the progression. In acting as mercenary companies, mage communities learn the arts of martial combat > Those with the most coin to pay for the best mages get to make the rules > kings and lords keep their good mages close > mages have the ability to influence some of the most rich and powerful clientele in Thedas.

This is good. I like this.

[Magdalena11]

I think the existing prohibition on mages attaining or inheriting titles would cover any chance of mages gaining too much "secular" (for want of a better word) authority. No matter how much a mage could make he or she would never make enough as a mercenary to challenge a noble's control over the region. The best he or she could hope for would be to be as successful as Wilhelm, who was able to afford the only tower in a small village after serving the king for at least 7-8 years.

Allowing enchanter-level mages to be employed would mean that they had the means to provide for themselves and possibly even a family. They would not be obliged to the tranquil's enchantments for room and board. That's actually the main reason, I think, that romantic involvement is prohibited. The circle doesn't want more mouths to feed.

I am talking about senior mages who have been elevated to enchanter status, not newly harrowed ones. They have already proven their trustworthiness and lack of danger to the community. After the situation in DAI is resolved and stability within the mages and templars is restored one way or the other, I would like to see more mages on indefinite loan or released entirely from the circle as it was in Rhys' boss' and Wilhelm's time.

[The Baconer]

Magdalena11 wrote...
I think the existing prohibition on mages attaining or inheriting titles would cover any chance of mages gaining too much "secular" (for want of a better word) authority. No matter how much a mage could make he or she would never make enough as a mercenary to challenge a noble's control over the region. The best he or she could hope for would be to be as successful as Wilhelm, who was able to afford the only tower in a small village after serving the king for at least 7-8 years.

They could probably bbq the noble at their leisure, but that wouldn't be of any use. Why would they openly challenge their clients? They just need to rub shoulders with the powerful lords, become relied on for offering the best services money can buy. Then when they've established a relationship of trust maybe they can lend their advice... take a few liberties.

[Sylvius the Mad]

EJ107 wrote...

But mage training is required from a very young age, far younger than somebody could voluntarily decide to join the circle.

I'm not talking about children.

I have no objection to mandatory education for all children (all children, not just mages).  No one gets to opt out, regardless of rank.

But once they're trained, they're free to go.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Magdalena11 wrote...

I think the existing prohibition on mages attaining or inheriting titles would cover any chance of mages gaining too much "secular" (for want of a better word) authority.

I strongly oppose that prohibition.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Reinstate magocracy ! The mages will rule ! *Evil cackle*

Okay, jokes aside....the solution to the problem is to not have templars as we do now. Instead, guards and law enforcement in nations and cities should just be trained to fight and resist magic as well as incorporate spirit mages within their ranks (mages who are most effective against other mages..that mana clash)....

As for mages, I think not just mages but non-mages should undergo basic training and receive basic education. Once they have done that, they are free to explore the world as they please...

Think of it like Elder Scrolls games...We have Arcane University & College of Winterhold where mages have an option to learn and study magic as they choose. Additionally, the guards are well equipped to fight mages...

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Kaiser Arian wrote...

Ordinary Mages: The Circle
Potentially dangerous Mages: Tranquility
Blood Mages: Execution

Abuser Templars: Excommunication

^ Do this as simple as it is. Why don't people give a damn about brief but constructive comments?

Or this .... >

The Woldan wrote...

I have no illusions, if you have mages and regular people like in Thedas a war of extermination is just a matter of time and inevitable. There is no common ground and no real solution so that all can live peacefully together. Thats wishful thinking.

Either the mages win, enslave and suppress all the surviving non-mage people and crate a chaotic incredibly corrupt society that will ultimately end in another even worse war - fade demons and abominations vs humans.- or the non-mages win, exile or kill every single mage and kill those born with magic abilities.

However, I can think of a solution that involves no killing nor suppression which miiiight work.

Let the mages get their freedom, no more circles, let them live normal, peaceful lives.

Dramatically increase the numbers of templars so they vastly outnumber mages. (Whats the percentage of children that are born with magic abilities in Thedas? 5%? Can't be that many. )
Build a templar garrison in every town, turn all the townsfolk and regular soldiers into minuteman templar reservists trained in revealing and combating dangerous and insurgent mages.

Set up a small but effective elite unit capable to deal with the most dangerous mages and abominations. Insurgent and blood mages - if not killed in combat- and those who surrender are sent to the elite units HQ for further ''investigations'' and to get a fair process.

An enormous and costly task for sure, but IMO that is the only way to make mages and regular people live together as peacefully as possible. As a bonus it would be hard to conquer a country where almost every person is either a combat ready templar, trained soldier or a mage.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
If you want to use the circle system to keep an eye on the mages, then make the circle system attractive to mages.

Imprisoning them is not an acceptable solution.

What is point of circle if it isn't enforced?

Individual liberty.

If you want the mages to stay in your circle so you can watch them, you need to give them a good reason to do so.

Offer free training.  Pay them.  Just don't force them.  That's never okay.

And what if mage don't want this things and become then abomnation and destroy world?

[Treacherous J Slither]

Mage school and a police force made up of mages and mundanes alike is my solution.

Teach the mage how to control their power and themselves. Teach them how to become productive members of society. Free admission for any mage from anywhere and at any age. Attendance is not mandatory but the education itself is strongly encouraged. Homeschooling is allowed. Teaching oneself is allowed. No schools of magic are forbidden.

Any problems that arise are handled by the magic police. Demons, abominations, evil mages, and even regular stuff like robbery, rape, and murder. Cases are handled similar to modern ways. Innocent until proven guilty, search for evidence, court trials etc.

The schools and the cops can be set up by anyone with the means to do so.


Sounds pretty good to me. No mage can cry about being oppressed and the mundanes have the magic police force to protect them. Problem solved.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 *I don't have it all worked out, but these are some of my preliminary ideas...


-- All mages must be registered, Phylactery and all.

-- Training in magic is mandatory for mages, either through the Circle, or privately by trained/certified mages.

-- Mages failing to register or train face stiff penalties.

-- Blood Magic should remain banned among civilians. However, exceptions should be made for members of important, state-recognized organizations using it for research/study or pursuing some worthy cause (e.g. -- Grey Wardens).

-- The Templar order has no way of preventing blood magic or demonic posession until after either one has taken place. They need to be tasked with enforcement, not prevention. Crack down on mages that are untrained, unregistered, blood magic, slavery (as it relates to blood magic), abominations, and demons/shades.

-- To complete training and become "certified," mages have two options:
1.) Undergo (and pass) the Harrowing.
2.) Complete service to the Templars.

... Yes, I think the Templar order should have mages in their ranks! Why? (1) Utility: set a thief to catch a thief. (2) It sets a culture of encouraging mages to police their own kind. (3) It prevents the Templars from developing extreme anti-mage attitudes and effectively becoming an army of oppressors. Kinda hard to dehumanize the guys that you work with daily, maybe even fight at your side. As an organization, you all work together cooperatively, or you're cast out of it.

Now, I figure the greatest concern here is that mage!Templars would sympathize with and/or try to help their targets. However, we've seen Templars do this anyway, and I doubt mages will want to help blood mages or abominations.

-- Nations should encourage mages who use their talents towards decidedly good/pro-social uses (such as healing or reversing demonic posession) and fund them handsomely, and have a zero-tolerance policy towards abusers.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 07 janvier 2014 - 05:19 .

[Boycott Bioware]

I let the nature decide, i accept whatever the nature decide

[Fortlowe]

Phylactory's with kill switches? Kinda like a ankle bracelet loaded with C4. Then they can go where they want and do what they want, but if they make trouble? Boom goes the dynamite. Give the triggers to a council of tranquil so judgement remains as objective as possible.

I don't know if it's possible.

I still think training tranquil to be Templars is a good idea after all...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 *I don't have it all worked out, but these are some of my preliminary ideas...


-- All mages must be registered, Phylactery and all.

-- Training in magic is mandatory for mages, either through the Circle, or privately by trained/certified mages.

-- Mages failing to register or train face stiff penalties.

-- Blood Magic should remain banned among civilians. However, exceptions should be made for members of important, state-recognized organizations using it for research/study or pursuing some worthy cause (e.g. -- Grey Wardens).

-- The Templar order has no way of preventing blood magic or demonic posession until after either one has taken place. They need to be tasked with enforcement, not prevention. Crack down on mages that are untrained, unregistered, blood magic, slavery (as it relates to blood magic), abominations, and demons/shades.

-- To complete training and become "certified," mages have two options:
1.) Undergo (and pass) the Harrowing.
2.) Complete service to the Templars.

... Yes, I think the Templar order should have mages in their ranks! Why? (1) Utility: set a thief to catch a thief. (2) It sets a culture of encouraging mages to police their own kind. (3) It prevents the Templars from developing extreme anti-mage attitudes and effectively becoming an army of oppressors. Kinda hard to dehumanize the guys that you work with daily, maybe even fight at your side. As an organization, you all work together cooperatively, or you're cast out of it.

Now, I figure the greatest concern here is that mage!Templars would sympathize with and/or try to help their targets. However, we've seen Templars do this anyway, and I doubt mages will want to help blood mages or abominations.

-- Nations should encourage mages who use their talents towards decidedly good/pro-social uses (such as healing or reversing demonic posession) and fund them handsomely, and have a zero-tolerance policy towards abusers.

This actually sounds very feasible. I agree that this could work. 

[CERBERUSDEMAN]

My solution I think would be pretty simple make the Circle something more like a live in Magic Academy, children might still be taken to it if they are found to have magical talent but their family would be able to come visit them and they'd be able to go out of the tower if they have supervision. After they pass the Harrowing they'd have three options:
1. Stay living in the tower and continue their education/training.
2. Leave the tower but still attend classes.
3. Leave the tower and live their lives.

Templars would still exist acting as guards and supervisors in the tower and in towns across the world, they would be monitored so they don't abuse their power, dealings with apostates should also default to diplomacy trying to bring them to the tower so they could be properly trained, only fighting if they were attacked first, and no more drugging them with Lyrium.

[andy6915]

EJ107 wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

But mage training is required from a very young age, far younger than somebody could voluntarily decide to join the circle.

To use a real world parallel, in most countries, schooling, public or private, are technically voluntary, but since a child isn't considered old enough to volunteer by themselves, parents are not only allowed, but obligated to make that choice for them. That schooling is made obligatory as a societal requirement is secondary; it's not a lawful requirement. Most parents are smart enough to recognise it as a stupid idea, however.

I'd venture to say that, in our society, ignorance is just as dangerous, if not more so, than the threat of blood mages is to the Thedan society.

It's an interesting parallel. But children who do not go to school are usually not capable of turning into a monster and killing up to sixty people or summoning a horde of undead due to their ignorance, and there are schools in most towns and villages, while there are few places mages can train- so the children would have to be sent further away. 

It's got me thinking about it from a different perspective though. Is it right to force a mage child to train if they don't want to leave their family or don't want to undergo training (but their family wants them to)? 

If it is, then why is it right to force a child to undergo training but not an adult? Both are equally at risk from their powers and are equally risking those around them. I understand children may not be able to fully understand the dangers of not undergoing training, but is an adult not caring about the dangers that different to a child not understanding them?

I agree that training is needed is needs to be absolutely mandatory. It is as has been said, a single untrained mage can creat a disaster. An untrained mage is like a wildfire, training is what turns them into a controlled and safe bonfire.

[andy6915]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 *I don't have it all worked out, but these are some of my preliminary ideas...


-- All mages must be registered, Phylactery and all.

-- Training in magic is mandatory for mages, either through the Circle, or privately by trained/certified mages.

-- Mages failing to register or train face stiff penalties.

-- Blood Magic should remain banned among civilians. However, exceptions should be made for members of important, state-recognized organizations using it for research/study or pursuing some worthy cause (e.g. -- Grey Wardens).

-- The Templar order has no way of preventing blood magic or demonic posession until after either one has taken place. They need to be tasked with enforcement, not prevention. Crack down on mages that are untrained, unregistered, blood magic, slavery (as it relates to blood magic), abominations, and demons/shades.

-- To complete training and become "certified," mages have two options:
1.) Undergo (and pass) the Harrowing.
2.) Complete service to the Templars.

... Yes, I think the Templar order should have mages in their ranks! Why? (1) Utility: set a thief to catch a thief. (2) It sets a culture of encouraging mages to police their own kind. (3) It prevents the Templars from developing extreme anti-mage attitudes and effectively becoming an army of oppressors. Kinda hard to dehumanize the guys that you work with daily, maybe even fight at your side. As an organization, you all work together cooperatively, or you're cast out of it.

Now, I figure the greatest concern here is that mage!Templars would sympathize with and/or try to help their targets. However, we've seen Templars do this anyway, and I doubt mages will want to help blood mages or abominations.

-- Nations should encourage mages who use their talents towards decidedly good/pro-social uses (such as healing or reversing demonic posession) and fund them handsomely, and have a zero-tolerance policy towards abusers.

This actually sounds very feasible. I agree that this could work.

Agreed, I have fews problems with that solution. I too like it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

soren4ever wrote...

1. Turn the Circles into Mage Guilds/Academies, require all mages to attend from age 7 to 18, mages will no longer be prevented from visiting and having contact with family and friends outside the Circle. At the age of 18 all mages must complete a final examination(The Harrowing or Something else?) Mages who pass this examination will be allowed to leave the Circle at will, but those who decide to stay will gain special perks. Mages will no longer be forbidden from having relationships with other mages or non-mages. The Circles will be outside the Chantry's control.

1) Relationshps are not strictly forbidden in the Circle. They are generally frowned upon, but the specific varry from circle to circle
2) mages leaving circles = recepie for disaster
3) Under whos' control will the Circles be? Who will finance and train templars?

2. Secularize the Templar Order: The Templar Order should be reorganized, have zero ties to the Chantry, and Templars must go through an application process. Templars should be trained alongside the mages as to be taught not to fear magic and to truly understand what it means to be a mage. Religious zealotry and abuse of mages or other Templars will be strictly forbidden. Templars will be trained to use a balance of reason and emotion, not just run on faith.

Why this redicolous notion that secularization is the solution to all problems or a good thing?

Tought not to fear magic? That's like being taught to not fear fire that's burning you.

3. Create a third independent group: said group will be involved in overseeing the mages and Templars; and hearing any complaints of abuse or corruption from both sides. the accused will then be tried in a court led by this group and judge by a jury of both Circle mages and Templars. Members of this group can not be former Circle mages, former Templars, or members of the Chantry, unless both sides agree on the person. This group must remain neutral and never favor one side or the other.

This is probably the only bit that might work.