38 réponses à ce sujet

[pablosplinter]

Hi all, I have just finished ME3 for the third time in a trilogy playthrough, and I have a question about Cerberus motives that I imagine has been discussed to death, and there is probably an obvious explanation I am not thinking of, but I haven't been around for a while, so can't really wade through loads of threads...would be handy if anyone could point me in the right direction of a discussion:)

Playing through the ending, TIM says that 'The crucible will let me control them' or something along those lines a few times. So it is safe to say that the Crucible is the main part of his plan(whatever it is). If this is the case, why does he actively work against the Crucible, and everyone working to complete it?

Cheers

[DeinonSlayer]

The Ivory Mook Brigade is there to be shot at. Their motive is lolindoctrination.

[McFlurry598]

I'm sure with his resources that he could have cerberus build the crucible just fine. After all, cerberus scientists are pretty intelligent, just, they have brutal experimentations. Like David back in ME2

Modifié par McFlurry598, 06 janvier 2014 - 11:00 .

[SwobyJ]

1)Literal perspective - He wants to sabotage it, not fully 'use' it. That's it. If WE never fought him at every turn, he'd have resources on his own end enough to create a Crucible itself. As we stop his efforts, bit by bit he becomes more crazed and radical about using Reaper tech to the point of implanting himself with it. Point being that if Shepard just stood down since Vancouver, TIM would have been the Crucible-maker and used it for Control.

2)IT perspective - He's just a figment of Shepard's mind, at least to some degree, and reflective of Shepard's now growing curiosity about the concept of Control.

3)Personal perspective - The Crucible+Citadel actually builds a new type of Reaper (beyond Shepard's current perception), and it will be used as a new Sovereign/Control-Reaper and establish 'humanity's' (or neo-humanity) rule. Yeah I'm crazyignoreme.

[SwobyJ]

McFlurry598 wrote...

I'm sure with his resources that he could have cerberus build the crucible just fine. After all, cerberus scientists are pretty intelligent, just, they have brutal experimentations. Like David back in ME2

It looked like TIM was aiming to have Salarian support, and take the Citadel to force people to work on it, and use Omega's resources to bolster construction, etc. He was going to ignore/sabotage any rise or appearence of the Krogan or Geth.


This would make him more and more unhinged. Yet.. at the same time, TIM saying On the contrary, we have achieved everything I imagined... almost everything." ....

What does he mean? Is he:

A)Just outright deluded by this point?
B)Getting indoctrinated (as Shepard I guess asserts), so he really is alerting the Reapers and thinking that he can waltz in and take control of them with a completed Crucible?
C)Everything is actually going according to plan and + IT + other stuff = Shepard picking Control is what he wanted from the start?

*shrug*

Modifié par SwobyJ, 06 janvier 2014 - 11:06 .

[Nightwriter]

The intelligent calculating thing would probably have been to wait until we built it for him and then just take it, but he was going bonkers in ME3 anyway and his best cunning villain days were behind him. When he wasn't talking to you he was basically sitting in his bedchambers like Azula cutting off his hair because a hallucination of his mother in the mirror made him mad.

Or maybe he thought attacking Shepard would not impede Crucible construction. I guess he didn't get the memo that basically all the teams and resources sent to the Crucible project said "with love, from Shepard."

[Sebby]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The Ivory Mook Brigade is there to be shot at. Their motive is lolindoctrination.

Yep, they're just a derpier equivalent of the sesame street mercs from ME2.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I like to quote Shamus Young on this one:

"The guy seems to be a sort of plot-hole singularity where the gameworld bends around him until it stops making sense."

[Iakus]

pablosplinter wrote...

Playing through the ending, TIM says that 'The crucible will let me control them' or something along those lines a few times. So it is safe to say that the Crucible is the main part of his plan(whatever it is). If this is the case, why does he actively work against the Crucible, and everyone working to complete it?

Cheers

Because reason.

Stop thinking and start shooting!  Enjoy the pretty colors at the end!

[MrFob]

Uh, wait a minute, when does Cerberus try to stop the construction of the crucible in ME3?
Basically in all Cerberus related missions, they pretty much do their own thing. There are only four notable exceptions:
- Mars: This is before anyone even knew what the crucible was and TIM wanted the data. Perfectly understandable.
- Sur'Kash: The entire Krogan story is more about military support for Palaven and Earth than the crucible as such. Granted, I am not entirely clear on what exactly Cerberus' goals were on Sur'Kash but it had nothing to do with the crucible itself. I could see how they might want to get control over the Krogan by capturing their best hope to cure genophage for example.
- The Citadel coup: Ok, I guess taking over the Citadel would have hampered the alliance efforts on the crucible but I guess at this point, TIM was going for total domination, including the crucible itself
- Thessia: Well, TIM needed the catalyst info as much as the alliance so it made sense for him to try and acquire it.

In all the side missions that I can think of from the top of my head, it's more about them trying to protect their assets or gain new ones but it has nothing to do with the crucible itself. On the contrary, given that TIM knew what Udina knew (and with that the location of the crucible construction site), it seems they chose to leave the project alone.
I will agree that they disturb the war effort quite a bit and therefore probably hamper the project as well but I think TIM's half indoctrinated half twisted mind can account for that.

EDIT: What I find more baffling is that the reapers never really try to stop the crucible project either.

Modifié par MrFob, 07 janvier 2014 - 12:04 .

[Iakus]

[quote]MrFob wrote...

- Mars: This is before anyone even knew what the crucible was and TIM wanted the data. Perfectly understandable.[/quote]

In all the side missions that I can think of from the top of my head, it's more about them trying to protect their assets or gain new ones but it has nothing to do with the crucible itself. On the contrary, given that TIM knew what Udina knew (and with that the location of the crucible construction site), it seems they chose to leave the project alone.
I will agree that they disturb the war effort quite a bit and therefore probably hamper the project as well but I think TIM's half indoctrinated half twisted mind can account for that.[/quote]

Except TIM didn't just steal the data from the Mars archives, he also deleted the original records, trying to prevent the Alliance from building this "weapon" in the first place

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Poor writing mixed with indoctrination.

It could have been something brilliant, especially if it came down to a decision where you could choose who would best benefit from the Crucible decision.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 07 janvier 2014 - 12:43 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

 They never undermined the Crucible.


Mars: gathering info. "Anything powerful enough to destroy the Reapers..." "... just might be something Cerberus would be interested in."

Tuchanka: opposing genophage cure on principle (pro-human views against krogan expansion).

Citadel Coup: TIM knew the Citadel was an important piece in the puzzle, just not sure why, but thought that control of it would give his plan leveredge.

Thessia: Mars redux.

[Sundance31us]

I got the impression it wasn't so much him working against the Crucible as him wanting complete control of it; when he isn't able to gain control he switches focus to the Catalyst.

[pablosplinter]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 They never undermined the Crucible.

His plan obviously requires the crucible to dock with the citadel, however on Thessia at least, he takes the knowledge that the citadel is the catalyst and keeps it from the alliance etc. And at his base, he deletes the info and tries to kill Shepard... Are people suggesting that the Illusive Man had his own Crucible sitting somewhere that he is just waiting to produce at some opportune moment?... Because he tries to stop the actual crucible from being used at all. 

[SwobyJ]

pablosplinter wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 They never undermined the Crucible.

His plan obviously requires the crucible to dock with the citadel, however on Thessia at least, he takes the knowledge that the citadel is the catalyst and keeps it from the alliance etc. And at his base, he deletes the info and tries to kill Shepard... Are people suggesting that the Illusive Man had his own Crucible sitting somewhere that he is just waiting to produce at some opportune moment?... Because he tries to stop the actual crucible from being used at all. 

In itself, I wouldn't be surprised. He'd certainly be more sneaky about it than the united galaxy blurting it out in unsecured comms.

It would depend on whether there's a future to this story and that something at least ITish is happening. I guess Bioware said there's isn't, eh?

It would be cool though.

[Stalker]

I... really don't know a good answer to that. Many things surrounding Cerberus stopped making sense since ME3.

[dreamgazer]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 They never undermined the Crucible.


Mars: gathering info. "Anything powerful enough to destroy the Reapers..." "... just might be something Cerberus would be interested in."

Tuchanka: opposing genophage cure on principle (pro-human views against krogan expansion).

Citadel Coup: TIM knew the Citadel was an important piece in the puzzle, just not sure why, but thought that control of it would give his plan leveredge.

Thessia: Mars redux.

^

[His Name was HYR!!]

pablosplinter wrote...

His plan obviously requires the crucible to dock with the citadel, however on Thessia at least, he takes the knowledge that the citadel is the catalyst and keeps it from the alliance etc.

That allows him to block the Alliance from going Destroy with the Crucible before he's ready with his own Control plan.

Simple.

And at his base, he deletes the info and tries to kill Shepard... Are people suggesting that the Illusive Man had his own Crucible sitting somewhere that he is just waiting to produce at some opportune moment?... Because he tries to stop the actual crucible from being used at all. 

He didn't delete the info that I recall.

As for trying to kill Shep, TIM says he's "not ready to write-off Shepard" to Kai Leng in a recording on one of the info-terminals, though that may be a paragon/renegade-dependent line. I think he was hoping to have you see reason in his chat with you when he pops up again near the end of Cerberus HQ. Failing that, Kai Leng would have to finish you off.

TIM was okay with the Crucible being worked on/completed. He says as much in a recording on a terminal at Cerberus HQ. I think TIM was hoping his enthralling powers/tech, combined with the Crucible's ability to dispense energy galaxy wide, would allow him to successfully take control. Ideally, he would have had control of the Citadel and/or the info on how to use the Crucible, allowing him to hold the Alliance's plan hostage and only allow them to execute his own plan.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 07 janvier 2014 - 03:31 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 They never undermined the Crucible.


Mars: gathering info. "Anything powerful enough to destroy the Reapers..." "... just might be something Cerberus would be interested in."

Tuchanka: opposing genophage cure on principle (pro-human views against krogan expansion).

Citadel Coup: TIM knew the Citadel was an important piece in the puzzle, just not sure why, but thought that control of it would give his plan leveredge.

Thessia: Mars redux.

They did at the end. Unless, he somehow knew the Victory Fleet was going to somehow succeed at docking the thing into the Citadel.

Plus it always seemed like a huuuuge stretch to assume somehow the Crucible could be altered to control anything because nobody knows how it works, or what it does, or what powers it, etc.

Eh, Indoctrination I guess.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 07 janvier 2014 - 05:23 .

[N7Gold]

pablosplinter wrote...

Hi all, I have just finished ME3 for the third time in a trilogy playthrough, and I have a question about Cerberus motives that I imagine has been discussed to death, and there is probably an obvious explanation I am not thinking of, but I haven't been around for a while, so can't really wade through loads of threads...would be handy if anyone could point me in the right direction of a discussion:)

Playing through the ending, TIM says that 'The crucible will let me control them' or something along those lines a few times. So it is safe to say that the Crucible is the main part of his plan(whatever it is). If this is the case, why does he actively work against the Crucible, and everyone working to complete it?

Cheers

The funny thing is, it appears that he needs Shepard to use the Crucible. He admits it openly if you choose the right dialogue.

Anderson: "They're controlling you!"

TIM: "I don't think so, Admiral."

Shepard (Red Renegade Dialogue #1): "Why waste your time with us if you can control the Reapers?"

TIM: "Because... I need you to believe."

I believe that the reason why he actively worked against those who intended on using the Crucible to destroy the Reapers is because the Reapers who controlled him would prefer that Shepard use it to control them rather than destroy them, because if they died, Synthesis would no longer be possible. After all, a how can a puppet control the puppet masters? It makes no sense. Also, since TIM seems to already know that the Crucible can control the Reapers, and the Reapers have controlled him for 33 years (dating back to the end of the First Contact War), it hints how intimately involved the Reapers are with the origins of the Crucible.

Modifié par N7Gold, 07 janvier 2014 - 06:09 .

[nos_astra]

TIM also seemed to know ... things ... back in ME2.

No one knew what was behind the Omega-4 relay but TIM read in his tea leaves that whatever lay behind could be taken care of by one single frigate and a bunch of very random people.

[SwobyJ]

klarabella wrote...

TIM also seemed to know ... things ... back in ME2.

No one knew what was behind the Omega-4 relay but TIM read in his tea leaves that whatever lay behind could be taken care of by one single frigate and a bunch of very random people.

He also convieniently 'found' a 'dead' Reaper.

And convieniently 'survived' a huskification boost through someone else's body (in the comics).

And then in Leviathan/Sanctuary, we learn that Reapers are individually connected to their husks.

Ahem...even dead gods can dream... lalala....

He understands the Reapers.. he knows how they work...

TIM sure seemed the most purely and kindly emotional in the later parts of the game (ME2), didn't he? :happy:


EDIT: BTW should I mention the '6-66' on the stair walls as you head down the hallway to meet TIM for the first time?

Modifié par SwobyJ, 07 janvier 2014 - 08:26 .

[Han Shot First]

SwobyJ wrote...

EDIT: BTW should I mention the '6-66' on the stair walls as you head down the hallway to meet TIM for the first time?

Interesting, I never noticed that.

[SwobyJ]

Han Shot First wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

EDIT: BTW should I mention the '6-66' on the stair walls as you head down the hallway to meet TIM for the first time?

Interesting, I never noticed that.

I'm just going to go out and say that TIM is the transmigrated 'spirit' of a rebellious Reaper who wanted to break off from the host. Through connection to it, he (Jack Harper) gained insight at the expense of freedom and his more human identity, and when the Reaper died (he sacrificed the body/brain of it for the Reaper IFF), TIM became more human for a little while, yet opened himself up to indoctrination from outside forces or maybe the Human Reaper itself.

He became a proxy tool for the Reapers eventually, fulfilling his role as a tempter of mortals into devious and dangerous ways for the sake of advancement.

He's Mass Effect's Lucifer. And we have to, in the end, decide whether his route of advancement may be preferable over, for example losing EDI/Geth, or opening up the galaxy to another galactic conflict disaster without Shepard's power over stopping it, etc.

TIM utilizes a Renegade Shepard more clearly and easily in ME2, but in ME3 that one goes more clearly rogue from him.
Paragon Shepard is more defiant of TIM in ME2, but in ME3 he is so worn down by the war that by the end, ascension in order to protect the many might not seem so bad...
This is because Shepard opened himself to synthetic perspectives in ME2, which opened himself up to Reaper influences, albeit super-covertly, in ME3. He may have resisted the entire way, but the final choice is ours.


Byeeeee. 

Modifié par SwobyJ, 07 janvier 2014 - 09:08 .