191 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

AlanC9 wrote...
TIM's motivation is supposed to be a mess. Indoctrinated, remember?

None of this was planned, remember? I'm not familiar with the books so I have no idea when the idea that he was indoctrinated was established. The franchise seems to be a messy patchwork of random ideas, often tacked on the last minute, following the Rule Of Cool.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

I'm sure he could have found someone else to manipulate.

The idea of people not being weak apparently frustrates you to no end, doesn't it?

Hmm. Now what does that say to me about you?

That you like to play armchair psychologist?

[CrutchCricket]

AlanC9 wrote...

TIM's motivation is supposed to be a mess. Indoctrinated, remember?

Not around the time of ME2 which is when klarabella's talking about.

klarabella wrote...
I'm sure he could have found someone else to manipulate.

Having recently reread the Hand of Thrawn duology I am also wondering why TIM didn't try to fake it.  If "Shepard the symbol" is so important why not use an impostor, or retroactively given Citadel, even a clone, to convince others that Shepard's still alive, and to manipulate them into doing what he wants. I'm sure it would've been a hell of a lot cheaper and with less risk too.

[nos_astra]

David7204 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

I'm sure he could have found someone else to manipulate.

The idea of people not being weak apparently frustrates you to no end, doesn't it?

Hmm. Now what does that say to me about you?

I don't know what "people not being weak" has to do with TIM's unclear motivations (unclear to the audience, to the protagonist and probably even to the creators themselves).

I can answer the second one: I'm more of a realist and not fond of power fantasies, obviously.

[Arcian]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

“The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.”
- H.P. Lovecraft

ontologicalgeek.com/the-call-of-leviathan-mass-effect-and-lovecraft/

This is an interesting article about Mass Effect and its Lovecraftian influences. The author argues that Mass Effect doesn't work as a combination of Lovecraft and power fantasy. I agree with some of his points, but I ultimately prefer to think of Mass Effect as a subversion of Lovecraft.


EDIT: Lovecraft's quote is precisely why I like the outcome of Synthesis. The Synthesis ending utterly obliterates that philosophy. It rips it apart. It kills it with fire. I believe that Destroy and Control also subvert the quote, but Synthesis does so in the grandest way. Knowledge liberates us; it doesn't destroy us.

The one who knows must be able to deal with the pressure of knowing. I sincerely do not believe the galaxy as a whole is ready for that just yet. It may never be. In fact, I am absolutely, 100% positive that it never, ever will be. It falls then to the select few to carry that burden on the behalf of the rest of the universe. Otherwise you're just handing out figurative nukes to everyone.

This is all beside the fact that synthesis, from the perspective of science and logic, is complete bollocks.

[AlanC9]

klarabella wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
TIM's motivation is supposed to be a mess. Indoctrinated, remember?

None of this was planned, remember? I'm not familiar with the books so I have no idea when the idea that he was indoctrinated was established. The franchise seems to be a messy patchwork of random ideas, often tacked on the last minute, following the Rule Of Cool.

Sure; that's how Bio rolls, and pretty much always has.. I'm just saying that Bio's got an opportunity to handwave anything they like regardng his motivation.

[SwobyJ]

StreetMagic wrote...

I don't think that's TIM's motivation exactly. That Shepard is the "chosen one". He does say Shepard is a symbol, but I think there's a side of him that considers himself above Shepard too. TIM is the other human who has had direct contact with the Reaper threat. The other (non human) is Saren. TIM doesn't even bother telling Shepard all of this - he just flatters Shep at times and uses him as a tool. The closest he got is in ME3 with the "I've been fighting them longer than you know" line.

"You were a tool. An agent for a singular purpose..."

He knew Shepard was motivated and crazy enough to go through the Omega 4 Relay. The plan blew up in his face, but apparently, he got enough to get what he wanted. By ME3, he considers Shepard obsolete. Shepard is not the future of humanity in TIM's eyes -- Reaper tech is. And it always was. The same with Saren. And the same with any player who doesn't destroy the Reapers.

Very good way of putting it.

Though a line should be drawn between "Reaper Tech" and "Reaper Level of Technology". It seems that the BAD GUYZ (Cerberus/TIM, Saren, Reapers themselves) mistake the two, while the GOOD GUYZ (Shep and co., EDI, Geth) understand the difference, or at least develop into an understanding over time.

We learn gradually throughout the series that tech is no huge danger in itself, even Reaper derived tech. It's the attachement to the Dark Angels and their Child God that screw things all up.

Oh Mass Effect, you deeply humanistic game series.

[SwobyJ]

CrutchCricket wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

TIM's motivation is supposed to be a mess. Indoctrinated, remember?

Not around the time of ME2 which is when klarabella's talking about.

klarabella wrote...
I'm sure he could have found someone else to manipulate.

Having recently reread the Hand of Thrawn duology I am also wondering why TIM didn't try to fake it.  If "Shepard the symbol" is so important why not use an impostor, or retroactively given Citadel, even a clone, to convince others that Shepard's still alive, and to manipulate them into doing what he wants. I'm sure it would've been a hell of a lot cheaper and with less risk too.

I think TIM secretly really likes Shepard and is jealous of his stuff (an awesome crew even in ME1, EDI defecting later on, EVA symbolically defecting later on, a cool ship to explore around in).

While TIM has to be all alone in fear of getting influenced more by Reapers. So he watches and enjoys it all from afar (the Collector Ship stuff really illustrated it to me, in a way). Until he goes over the edge and puts a Reaper brain/heart/skeleton in his base. Yay.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 08 janvier 2014 - 09:32 .

[David7204]

klarabella wrote...

I don't know what "people not being weak" has to do with TIM's unclear motivations (unclear to the audience, to the protagonist and probably even to the creators themselves).

I can answer the second one: I'm more of a realist and not fond of power fantasies, obviously.

Everything. The idea that Shepard possesses something most people don't, something worth material investment, clearly confounds and frustrates you. You seem bamboozled by the simple notion that such a thing can have value - and power.

Perhaps you only see power in terms of money and guns? Is that 'realism,' Klarabella?

Modifié par David7204, 08 janvier 2014 - 09:33 .

[nos_astra]

David7204 wrote...
Everything. The idea that Shepard possesses something most people don't, something worth material investment, clearly confounds and frustrates you. You seem bamboozled by the simple notion that such a thing can have value - and power. 

The problem is that Shepard doesn't possess clearly defined traits that make him unique and useful for the task at hand: Controlling the Reapers.

The one thing that Shepard had was the cipher from ME1 ... but that was ignored after ME1 concluded and replaced by the idea that Shepard is just very special and awesome.

Modifié par klarabella, 08 janvier 2014 - 09:44 .

[David7204]

You're absolutely right, klarabella. Human traits are never 'clearly defined,' including Shepard's. They're very elusive in being measured quantitatively. Is that too great a hurdle for you to overcome in appreciating their value?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

You're absolutely right, klarabella. Human traits are never 'clearly defined,' including Shepard's. They're very elusive in being measured quantitatively. Is that too great a hurdle for you to overcome in appreciating their value?

What value do they have? 

[ImaginaryMatter]

Maybe David, much like the Reapers as portrayed in ME1, is simply beyond our comprehension.

[Obadiah]

klarabella wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
TIM's motivation is supposed to be a mess. Indoctrinated, remember?

None of this was planned, remember? I'm not familiar with the books so I have no idea when the idea that he was indoctrinated was established. The franchise seems to be a messy patchwork of random ideas, often tacked on the last minute, following the Rule Of Cool.

The short version of Evolution is that TIM and Saren both got hit by a secondary discharge from a Reaper artifact, and gained their blue glowy implants, the ability to speak strange languages, and can hear the Reapers... a little. I think it is supposed to signify some kind of indoctrination.

Modifié par Obadiah, 08 janvier 2014 - 10:29 .

[nos_astra]

David7204 wrote...
You're absolutely right, klarabella. Human traits are never 'clearly defined,' including Shepard's. They're very elusive in being measured quantitatively. Is that too great a hurdle for you to overcome in appreciating their value?

So what was it that made Shepard so valuable to TIM that he wasted many months and lots of money on a one-time-only cure for death? As I said, the one thing that truly set Shepard apart was ignored. So how do we justify Shepard's resurrection?

[nos_astra]

Obadiah wrote...
The short version of Evolution is that TIM and Saren both got hit by a secondary discharge from a Reaper artifact, and gained their blue glowy implants, the ability to speak strange languages, and can hear the Reapers... a little. I think it is supposed to signify some kind of indoctrination.

Wasn't Evolution written after ME2 was published?

[David7204]

Tell me klarabella, what traits would you deem worthy of months of work and billions of credits? What human being would be an acceptable exchange for that cost to you? Are there any such traits?

[Sebby]

klarabella wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
The short version of Evolution is that TIM and Saren both got hit by a secondary discharge from a Reaper artifact, and gained their blue glowy implants, the ability to speak strange languages, and can hear the Reapers... a little. I think it is supposed to signify some kind of indoctrination.

Wasn't Evolution written after ME2 was published?

Yep and the only thing of note that was used in the games from that glorified toilet paper was the basis for the EDI sex robot.

[GreyLycanTrope]

David7204 wrote...

Tell me klarabella, what traits would you deem worthy of months of work and billions of credits? What human being would be an acceptable exchange for that cost to you? Are there any such traits?

I believe she was asking you.
Personally I haven't the foggiest, I can't think of one person or trait who/which would warrent that type of effort.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 08 janvier 2014 - 11:04 .

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Tell me klarabella, what traits would you deem worthy of months of work and billions of credits? What human being would be an acceptable exchange for that cost to you? Are there any such traits?

The very rare trait of "has spoken to and killed a Reaper"

[Sebby]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Tell me klarabella, what traits would you deem worthy of months of work and billions of credits? What human being would be an acceptable exchange for that cost to you? Are there any such traits?

The very rare trait of "has spoken to and killed a Reaper"

Lazarus wasn't for Joker.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Tell me klarabella, what traits would you deem worthy of months of work and billions of credits? What human being would be an acceptable exchange for that cost to you? Are there any such traits?

Nope. There are no such humans I can think of worth that kind of time or effort in reality. Or any human that has or ever will exist.

[Sebby]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Tell me klarabella, what traits would you deem worthy of months of work and billions of credits? What human being would be an acceptable exchange for that cost to you? Are there any such traits?

Nope. There are no such humans I can think of worth that kind of time or effort in reality. Or any human that has or ever will exist.

Watch out, David might nominate himself for that.

[The Night Mammoth]

Shepard's real, universal talent was being a good killer. Any decisions they made were simply the result of having a choice thrust upon them. I can't actually think of any really important situations that were solved by Shepard's unique charm or wit.

[Steelcan]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Shepard's real, universal talent was being a good killer. Any decisions they made were simply the result of having a choice thrust upon them. I can't actually think of any really important situations that were solved by Shepard's unique charm or wit.

B....but his heroism


HIS HEROISM