308 réponses à ce sujet

[Gorkanus]

so what do you think, i think from tactical sense  i was right decision,plus the signal from tower comed too late for loghain army to be succesfull in relieving the alredy fighting part of the army


btw  this song fits  Ostagar atmosfere suprisingry well. www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Gorkanus, 07 janvier 2014 - 07:12 .

[rasloveszev]

From what Calin's guard said in the Ostogar DLC, it seems Lohgain was wise to retreat. However, Loghain is still an ****.

[DarthSliver]

I think he retreated so he could take over Feralden, I think he might have been able to save the King if he tried than make the fighting retreat.

[Fredward]

They were outnumbered even before they split their forces. The entire plan hinged on catching the darkspawn from behind to invalidate their number advantage. Cailan's army was decimated so instead of fighting the darkspawn from both sides they would have wound up just turning the whole horde on Loghain. Would have been a slaughter. So yes, it was smart.

[Cainhurst Crow]

It was smart up to a point, in that is saved more men then it would have if they had fought anyway. The problem comes with all the events and actions surrounding the retreat, the secret marching order to retreat right when the beacon was lite, the killing, imprisonment, and torture of witnesses, the power grab, etc.

[Fredward]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
It was smart up to a point, in that is saved more men then it would have if they had fought anyway. The problem comes with all the events and actions surrounding the retreat, the secret marching order to retreat right when the beacon was lite, the killing, imprisonment, and torture of witnesses, the power grab, etc.

There was a secret order to march as soon as the beacon was lit?

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 07 janvier 2014 - 07:29 .

[Knight of Dane]

This belongs on the Dragon Age: Origins forum.

[Orian Tabris]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

They were outnumbered even before they split their forces. The entire plan hinged on catching the darkspawn from behind to invalidate their number advantage. Cailan's army was decimated so instead of fighting the darkspawn from both sides they would have wound up just turning the whole horde on Loghain. Would have been a slaughter. So yes, it was smart.

That's debatable.

I think it was wise from a survival point of view, irrespective of what would have exactly happened to Loghain and his troops. They'd have died, and Alistair and the Warden would also have died - ignoring the darkspawn that ambushed them at the top of the Tower of Ishal - once they came down to help. If the Orlesian Grey Wardens were there as well (earlier than when they would have actually arrived without Loghain's intervention), and Loghain had not fled himself and his troops, the Blight would have been stopped there. Well, maybe... if Alistair and the Warden had reached the battle field safely.

I think Cailan, and maybe Duncan too, would have died anyway. The only way they'd have survived if they fled when the battle got too tough, and even that seems a bit unlikely to me.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Duncan seemed to think the plan would work.

I don't know how much we are supposed to read into the guard at Return to Ostagar. He seems to claim Calian knew he was doomed but fatalistically charged anyway. Which is completely at odds with everything we know about Calian. In fact that same DLC features scenes where Allistair claims that Calian's only flaw was he "hoped too much." Which again totally contradicts what the traumatized guard said.

[Fredward]

Orian Tabris wrote...
That's debatable.

I think it was wise from a survival point of view, irrespective of what would have exactly happened to Loghain and his troops. They'd have died, and Alistair and the Warden would also have died - ignoring the darkspawn that ambushed them at the top of the Tower of Ishal - once they came down to help. If the Orlesian Grey Wardens were there as well (earlier than when they would have actually arrived without Loghain's intervention), and Loghain had not fled himself and his troops, the Blight would have been stopped there. Well, maybe... if Alistair and the Warden had reached the battle field safely.

I think Cailan, and maybe Duncan too, would have died anyway. The only way they'd have survived if they fled when the battle got too tough, and even that seems a bit unlikely to me.

Well yeah. Hindsight of an eagle and all that. But Loghain made the best decision in that situation. Ignoring his contribution to the less-than-optimal setup he made the best of a bad situation. At that moment. Before and after are debatable.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
It was smart up to a point, in that is saved more men then it would have if they had fought anyway. The problem comes with all the events and actions surrounding the retreat, the secret marching order to retreat right when the beacon was lite, the killing, imprisonment, and torture of witnesses, the power grab, etc.

There was a secret order to march as soon as the beacon was lit?

Well the people fighting sure as hell never got a retreat order now did they? Only everyone not fighting.

[Fredward]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Well the people fighting sure as hell never got a retreat order now did they? Only everyone not fighting.

To sound the retreat there should be people to actually retreat. Cailan's force had ceased to exist as a cohesive fighting force by that point, they survivors were probably breaking anyway.

[Br3admax]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Duncan seemed to think the plan would work.

No he didn't. He only said that it would work to Calian. If you talked to him privately, you would know that he had doubts.

I don't know how much we are supposed to read into the guard at Return to Ostagar. He seems to claim Calian knew he was doomed but fatalistically charged anyway. Which is completely at odds with everything we know about Calian. In fact that same DLC features scenes where Allistair claims that Calian's only flaw was he "hoped too much." Which again totally contradicts what the traumatized guard said.

Not really. Calian hoped for a victory. He knew that he would recieve none.  This plan was a failure from the start, despite what some captains in the guard might say. 

Either way, Loghain was very smart to not fight, but the secrecy was his downfall. Or at least one of them. I'm much more angered by the fact that he denied Grey Warden support, ignoring their neutrality because of their nationality. 

[Br3admax]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Well the people fighting sure as hell never got a retreat order now did they? Only everyone not fighting.

To sound the retreat there should be people to actually retreat. Cailan's force had ceased to exist as a cohesive fighting force by that point, they survivors were probably breaking anyway.

A lot of assumptions being made here. Not to mention this nonsense about not needing to sound a retreat because most of the people alive were already leaving. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 07 janvier 2014 - 08:08 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Br3ad wrote...

Not really. Calian hoped for a victory. He knew that he would recieve none.  This plan was a failure from the start, despite what some captains in the guard might say.

Those two things are mutally exclusive. And Duncan says that he believes Loghain would be able to make up  difference in terms of the darkspawn's numerical advantage. He clearly didn't think he was pointlessly marching to his doom. His reaction on the battlefield, desperately looked up at the Tower of Ishal seemed to indicate he thought that the reinforcments could have saved them.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 07 janvier 2014 - 08:13 .

[LucianaIV]

The decision itself was probably the smart move.

The motivations and the way he went about it, was not, just when the signal was lit, which meant ''move your ass into the battle'', he gives the opposite order, then suddenly rushes to Denerim, seizing power and declaring the Wardens to be traitors.

Loghain intentionally retreated when he should have reinforced and the way he went about it makes it seem pretty clear that he planned to do so from the start.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Well the people fighting sure as hell never got a retreat order now did they? Only everyone not fighting.

To sound the retreat there should be people to actually retreat. Cailan's force had ceased to exist as a cohesive fighting force by that point, they survivors were probably breaking anyway.

So you're telling me that people were already retreating before the cutscene played of loghian "sounding a retreat", which is the only point in which a any forces are seen leaving. It's pretty clear from duncan and calins actions in the next scene, along with the survivors accounts, they never recieved any orders to retreat and only fled when no reinforcements came after the signal went up, which was the signal loghian took to stage his retreat.

[Fredward]

Okay so lemme rephrase with less assumption. Loghain saved his half of the army at the cost of the King and all of his men who had already suffered the brunt of the darkspawn attack. Better? Still a better plan than charging in with the king's flank broken.

[Br3admax]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Not really. Calian hoped for a victory. He knew that he would recieve none.  This plan was a failure from the start, despite what some captains in the guard might say.

Those two things are mutally exclusive.

No they aren't. Hope doesn't require any type of rational processing. That's why it's called hope and not, say, a projection chart.

And Duncan says that he believes Loghain would be able to make up  difference in terms of the darkspawn's numerical advantage. He clearly didn't think he was pointlessly marching to his doom. His reaction on the battlefield seemed to indicate he thought that reinforcments could have saved them.

Again, Duncan never believed that they would defeat the entire horde once and for all at Ostagar, which was the goal. He certainly did not believe that this would come from Loghain. This is why he encouraged Calian to wait a week for Eamon. Duncan already knew that the horde outnumbered the Fereldan troops, that coupled with the fact that the darkspawn are not simply defeated in this manner shows that Duncan had no delusions on using numbers to defeat the darkspawn. Finally, that reaction most likely had more to do with betrayal than his expectance of being saved. Duncan was already preparing to die. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 07 janvier 2014 - 08:24 .

[Star fury]

Wrong forum, hon. This has to be "debated" on DAO forums.

[andy6915]

Yes, probably. Cailan had a PERFECT defensive line, the kind the Darkspawn were literally going to break themselves on. So what did he do with his perfect defensive line?... He broke it himself by ordering his soldiers to charge out of the defensive line and engage the Darkspawn in an all-out brawling melee. He turned it from a defensive military battle into a free for all, the exact kind of battle Darkspawn kick ass in. I always roleplay my Dwarven Noble to that effect, one look at him creating a free for all told my dwarf that "the battle's over, we're going to lose". And it's true, the battle was already in the Darkspawn's favor the moment he ordered a charge. Reminds me of a load screen tip-

"Whenever possible, try to flank your enemies. History won't remember how dramatic your failed frontal assault looked."

Cailan really should have read the load screen tips.

Modifié par andy69156915, 07 janvier 2014 - 08:34 .

[Axdinosaurx]

His initial retreat makes sense, they didn't have the means to beat the darkspawn there. His exile of the grey wardens and the coup however doesn't make any sense.

[Augustei]

Axdinosaurx wrote...

His initial retreat makes sense, they didn't have the means to beat the darkspawn there. His exile of the grey wardens and the coup however doesn't make any sense.

Yes, clearly a wise decision. Just look at the army as your crossing the bridge to Ishal. The darkspawn had completely broken through their ranks and lets assume it took about 50 minutes to get to the top of that tower (Basing of Duncan saying we have very little time and about an hour to get there, heck we go there late so it was probably An hour and a half to two hours) The damage done to an army under that kind of pressure for that amount of time is devastating.

Not to mention that the darkspawn were far far larger than anyone anticipated.

Anyway this topic has been discussed to death, the best answers you will find here social.bioware.com/56308/blog/10285/

[Adanu]

Until we know exact numbers on both sides, any debate is pointless.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Br3ad wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Not really. Calian hoped for a victory. He knew that he would recieve none.  This plan was a failure from the start, despite what some captains in the guard might say.

Those two things are mutally exclusive.

No they aren't. Hope doesn't require any type of rational processing. That's why it's called hope and not, say, a projection chart.

And Duncan says that he believes Loghain would be able to make up  difference in terms of the darkspawn's numerical advantage. He clearly didn't think he was pointlessly marching to his doom. His reaction on the battlefield seemed to indicate he thought that reinforcments could have saved them.

Again, Duncan never believed that they would defeat the entire horde once and for all at Ostagar, which was the goal. He certainly did not believe that this would come from Loghain. This is why he encouraged Calian to wait a week for Eamon. Duncan already knew that the horde outnumbered the Fereldan troops, that coupled with the fact that the darkspawn are not simply defeated in this manner shows that Duncan had no delusions on using numbers to defeat the darkspawn. Finally, that reaction most likely had more to do with betrayal than his expectance of being saved. Duncan was already preparing to die. 

If he knew he would lose, he would not hope we would win. Calian can't be overconfident and fatalistic at the same time.

If Duncan knew he was going to die, what difference would it make if Loghain betrayed him or not?

The entire battle doesn't make sense if the ar,y's leaders knew they were doomed. There would be no point in charging to their deaths knowing they couldn't stop the darkspawn. In that case, the battle didn't have to happen at all. Loghain obviously thought his troops could better serve Ferelden by leaving and surviving. Why didn't Calian and Duncan? Was Calian suicidal? Was he intentionally trying to sabotage Ferelden by leaving it without an army to defeat the darkspawn and by making sure he and his soldiers all perished in vain? Why would anyone, much less a King who supposedly was chasing after glory intentionally participate in a disaster?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 07 janvier 2014 - 09:05 .