308 réponses à ce sujet

[Sasie]

simfamSP wrote...

Damn, and Wynne is supposed to be 'wise?'

Wynne seems to be an expert on everything in theory. She does however struggle a bit when it comes to practice, like we see in the circle tower when everyone realise they are in the fade except her. Speaking of Loghain though I find it a bit odd that the Bannorn turned against him after Ostagar.

The rebellion just seems to lack direction, what could explain why they are losing badly and Loghain is crushing them before the Landsmeet. I mean who is even leading the charge against Loghain? Arl Eamon only showed up to take advantage of it toward the end and Redcliffe was completely isolated when it all started. Are all the lords fighting on their own without a clear leader?

[Joy Divison]

Zu Long wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Wrong.  Watch the scene where he gives the order to retreat.  Note the horde of darkspawn overwhelming the battlefield visible from his vantagepoint.

Wrong. I posted a link on the previous page and listed the times. The battle is never seen from Loghain's perspective. only the tower, because that's the signal.

Are you blind?  Did you miss the huge red-orange glow in the background of the very scene (i.e. 6 inches in front of Loghain) you are referring to?  If you are visually impaired then have someone you know read the take from one of the writers:

Zu Long wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...
Only?  Wrong.
Duncan: "Your Uncle sends his greetings and reminds you that Redcliffe forces could be here in less than a week"
Cailan: "Hmmpf.  Eamon just wants in on the glory.  We've won three battles against these mosnters and tomorrow should be no different."

Wrong. See Return to Ostagar where we learn that Cailan is lying his butt off in that scene, thought Ostagar was a lost cause, and wanted reinforcements from Orlais. He was protecting Eamon's troops from a battle he knew he would lose. See prior page for my theory of why politics between Cailan and Loghain caused Ostagar.

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought were we discussing KING Cailan here, not Sergeant Cailan.  You keep saying it's Loghain's fault that the army at Ostagar fought without the Orlesians, but it's KING Cailan's decision and responsibility ... and from the exposition before the battle, we know the KING's preferences outweigh Loghain's.  Loghain tells him flatly, numerous times, not to fight on the front lines.  KING Cailan pulls rank and overrides his subordinate's ADVICE.  You claim that Cailan placed himself in harm's way at Ostagar to change Loghain's mind - something you have ZERO evidence for - but seem to forget as KING Cailan, he does not have to do that.

Zu Long wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...
You incorrectly assume that Everyone knew this was a blight.  Play the game again.  Even Cailan - who desperately wants this to be a blight - says "I'm not even sure this is a true blight."  No archdeamon was spotted - both Cailan and Loghain say this.

The Wardens knew but elected not to let the Ferelden army leadership on the secret.

Loghain says no Dragon was spotted, but only in response to Duncan telling him they should be prepared for it to appear. I don't see how that's the Wardens holding back. Cailan only responds that he's not sure because Duncan mentions that it IS a blight. Again, in Return to Ostagar, it's made pretty clear that Cailan knew darn well it was a real blight and that his army was toast. The Wardens in Orlais told the Empress they were SURE of it, and she tells Cailan in her letter to him. Loghain knew what the Wardens were saying, knew that Duncan was telling him the Archdemon could appear. That he did not believe or disregarded for political purposes is irrelevant. Abandoning the battle and letting all the Ferelden Wardens die was tactically wrong, and he should have known it.

Since you are so fond of referring to RTO, did you happen to miss the dialogue about Cailan hoping to slay the archedemon with his father's sword?  The Wardens don't let out their little secret that it is one of them that must perform the killing blow.  You argue as if their secrets are open knowledge to all principal actors.  And even if Loghain knew the Grew Wardens were more than darkspawn experts/highly skilled warriors and had some indispensable role in slaying the archdemon - which he doesn't by the way as is relayed at the Landsmeet - how does that make his decision to retreat wrong?  As it plainly told to the player, there are just a handful of GWs on the field as Ostagar; why should Loghain risk his intact army on the hope to save them?  There are other Grey Wardens, even non-Orleansian Grey Wardens.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 08 janvier 2014 - 04:16 .

[Augustei]

simfamSP wrote...

Damn, and Wynne is supposed to be 'wise?'

I've never regarded Wynne as wise, I think she is the biggest idiot of a companion I have ever had in my party (And this isn't just based on what she says at Ostagar)

[Billy-the-Squid]

Commander Kurt wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

This thread is just to stressful to continue to post in, things are going in circles where people seem to feel the need to question points already answered and then they are answered again only to be again questioned.
Then we have Loghain haters like Zu Long who ignore both valid statements & points, and ignore logic. Anyway, I'm outa' here

I actually read the entire thread, and regarding those two points raised by Zu Long and repeated by me I don't see them answered. People are just saying that Loghain is right to distrust the wardens, that they have bad history, that the wardens aren't clear on the threat, that it is sane to distrust the wardens. But fact is, noone else in the entire universe does. They are formally placed above the Chantry and the monarchs in power. This has not been disputed in this thread with anything other than "I think noone else listens to them either".

As for the beacon, it's the same there. In game we learn that the beacon is needed for Loghain to know what is going on. Conclusions like "He must have scouts telling him" and "He can see the battlefield" is guesswork. Not a long stretch, I agree. We do see scouts in the game and he might be able to see the battleground from where he is. But then the beacon is "crucial" why?

Loghain being in the right makes for a more believable setting. Any real life government would never trust the wardens like they do in Thedas based on the evidence. The whole battle plan, including the beacon, is silly and unrealistic. But in this setting the beacon is crucial. And the wardens are needed to stop the blight, something that is common knowledge in Thedas.

I don't mean to go in circles. To my knowledge, this has not been answered and I feel bad for Zu Long thinking that he is the only one to recognize it.

1)

Did the Wardens of another nation become involved in a coup under their Commander Sophie Dryden? Nope, they did in Ferelden. Are the Wardens from another nation that the country has been at war with for over a decade previously? Nope, well they were in the case of Orlais and Ferelden. 

Is the Queen of Orlais pulling the strings behind the Orlesian wardens? To an extent, we know in awakenings that she controls how many and when they can leave Orlais. Logaihn already knows that Celine is attempting to form a marriage with Calin at this point, making her the defacto ruler of Ferelden as the more powerful partner in the alliance. Loghain has every right to think the Orlesians are up to something.

A) lauch a pre emptive strike as he is embroiled in fighting the spawn in the south, under the cover of the Wardens and Chevaliers entering to "help".
achieve conquest of Ferelden by political means, when they couldn't achieve it militarily, not suprising when Celine is a consumate politician.
c) Orlais did that before in the last blight, and the Qunari wars. Offer help and then conveniently stay and take over. Their track history is shoddy at best

And no the Wardens don't have the respect of major powers anymore, they don't have the say and political pull outside of the Anderfells, particularly in Ferelden. As a organisation their power is on the wane considering the blight was 400 years ago. The legal contract between them and the country means they're tolerated and left alone, while given prefrence for meeting with heads of state and used when the Spawn comes up, but people haven't needed them for hundreds of years.

If they were above the monarchs of countries in authority they wouldn't have been destroyed in Ferelden. They are autonomous. There's a big difference, or Duncan wouldn't have been so wary of using the right of conscription. Yes they have the right to do so, but they don't use it. If they are held above the Monarchies and Chantry then they should, shouldn't they? The conclusion is they're not, they might use it to conscript prisoners from goals, they'll get little resistance, but frankly they're not going to conscript a highborn or wealthy noble because they don't have the political and military clout to take on a whole nation or Feudal Lord.

That done lets move on to number 2, the beacon.

2)

The beacon was supposed to signal when to attack the Spawn's flank after it charged Cailin's force. The co ordination is imporatant, they couldn't be found by the spawn before they charged, hence the beacon, so they couldn't be in sight of the battle.That's it.

If the horde was so big that it was outflanking Logahin's force, the entire battle would devolve into a meatgrinder war of attrition which the spawn would inevitably win through sheer weight of numbers and the issue is that they would be able to attack Logahin in the flank and rear after he was encircled when he commited himself, hence why we know he had scouts in the region to warn him of the size of the horde, which is easier to assess once it actually attacks. 

He'd be a fool to enter a battle he knows he'd lose, Cailin is too stupid to realise that, and by fighting on the front lines in a decoy group which is going to be facing the brunt of the spawn's attack he's effectively consigned himself to a "glorious death" if the plan fails, and it did. 

The beacon itself isn't that important, only a signal to attack. And the Warden's hush hush, behaviour doesn't help matters "only we can defeat the blight" why? "we can't tell you that, trade secret" how do you know this is a blight? "can't tell you that either, trade secret" urgh..."Only we can kill the Archdemon" how do you know? "can't tell you, trade secret" oh for fu.. how do you know there is a dragon about? "can't tell you that, trade secret" oh bugger off...I'll go base my strategy on bird signs, before the Wardens.

It really doesn't help, when your supposed allies are so tight lipped about everything, that one simply has to go on faith at a pivotal battle.

In the end you've got a stupid naive king wanting to play soldier, a seasoned formidable general who has worries regarding foreign invasion infiltration, a political confrontation between Logahin and Eamon coming to a head, a organisation which was previously involved in a politcal coup involved, the Orlesians attempting to cross the border and a secret marriage proposal by the Empress with the said, stupid naive king to possibly bring in Orlesian forces by the backdoor. And then the darkspawn running about. It's really not a great situation.

Loghain's single driving force has been to keep Ferelden independent and free of foreign invasion, look at in that context, and everyting he's done makes sense, including his withdrawl to preserve what was left of his army. 

Modifié par Tequila Cat, 08 janvier 2014 - 04:38 .

[bEVEsthda]

This discussion is entertaining to follow (some of the time) (though I gather I will be doing it less, now that the thread has been moved).
Those who think one or other side can be "proven" are fools IMO. That doesn't mean it's not fun to construct possible scenarious that fit the known and perceived facts.

But there is some discussion here that seem unnecessary. We do know some limited things, though we should be careful not to take these and leap to more inclusive and farranging assumption.

We do know that Loghain cannot see the battle from his vantage point! We know this for certain, no discussion or arguments needed.
How do we know this? The writers have told us! So this fact can be considered canon.

This, however, doesn't mean that Loghain cannot have a reasonably clear idea of how many the Darkspawn are. He sees some parts of the river of Darkspawn. And likely, he's had his scouts too.

We do know that Loghain took the decision to leave the field at that moment after the signal was lit!
How do we know this? The writers have told us! So this fact can be considered canon.

This doesn't mean that he hasn't planned it. Just that he is commiting to it. Likely, he has made a number of plans and contingency plans in advance. It also doesn't mean that he hasn't planned to just stand there, with no signal, and letting the king be killed because he has sabotaged the signal. It only means the signal forced an action.

There are also some things we do not know, and cannot know.
We do not know if the battle was winnable or not. Wether it was or not, is entirely a matter of writing. And the writers never wrote either. In this case, there is no canon.
This doesn't mean characters cannot have had a conviction on the matter.
(From a pure relation to real + military, the game offers no evidence ruling out that the battle was winnable. The Greek and Romans regularly defeated many times numerically greater forces, of the kind of loose, undisciplined fighters that the Darkspawn represents. They even did it with only light own losses.).

For much the same reason, we don't know if the battle plan was sound or not. Because this too is a matter of writing. We cannot compare to real, because it's not. And it hasn't been written.
That doesn't mean we cannot conclude some parts of the plan are stupid.

Carry on.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 08 janvier 2014 - 05:31 .

[Mike3207]

Looking out from crossing the bridge to the Tower, I can see that there are darkspawn all the way from the forest to the fortress, a considerable distance. Just for argument's sake I'll accept that Loghain can't make out how many darkspawn there are, but he has to have some idea of the forces arrayed him at the tjme he makes that decision.

if you recruit him later he says he faced a fool's decision or something like that concerning making the charge.I don't remember the exact words, but he mentions-"I could have lost them, or the entire army"

There's all sorts of issues with how the battle is fought. 1 volley with the archers, sending mabari out unsupported to be slaughtered, no evidence the mages played any role, and putting the Wardens and the King group on the front lines. If i didn't know better, I might think Cailan was intentionally trying to lose that battle.

I think the real issue-no one really knows how many darkspawn were at that battle. Duncan estimates at one point "that there are thousands, maybe ten thousand or more. By now they look to outnumber us".

If the darkspawn had enough to swarm the Tower of Ishal, they had more than enough to handle the Kings Army.

I'm not even touching Alistair's contention that the battle was almost won at the time Loghain retreated".A contention he makes when talking to Flemeth. Both Theirin brothers have issues in dealing with reality, and are well capable of constructing sand castles in their imaginations. Wynne is almost as bad, and only remembers what she wants to.

I'm not going to go as far as say the battle was unwinnable. With a good battle plan, you might have been able to emerge with a stalemate similar to Antietam, and been able to call it a victory. Unfortunately, Cailan meddled a bit more than he should have, and the signal was late. Given the circumstances, there was no option but to retreat and save the army.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 08 janvier 2014 - 05:42 .

[Dorrieb]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Yes, Loghain planned the strategy, but Cailan chose to disregard a lot of what he said.

As Loghain knew he would.

Cailan disregarded Duncan mentioned Eamon could send reinforcements in less than a week, and simply said Eamon wanted in on the glory as if that was the end of it.

Yes, Duncan made that argument, not Loghain. Nor did Loghain say anything like 'Yes, listen to Duncan, he's talking sense.' Funny that.

Add in that Loghain was saying constantly that Cailan should attend to reality and not put all his hopes in stories and legends, and that the front line was too dangerous for the king to fight, and Cailan disregarded it completely.

Several times, loudly and within earshot of just about everyone. How convenient! He's just covering himself in advance. He knows how it's going to end up, and he wants to be able to say 'I told him not to fight in the front lines, everyone heard me!' while knowing full well that Cailan will anyway. Maybe he even wants to be able to tell himself that, to ease his own conscience.

And it was Cailan who chose to charge out into the open and got himself surrounded on all sides.

Not to mention all the darkspawn numbers, their tunneling and taking the tower, and surrounding them on all sides.

It was simply a battle that could not be won, and many of the problems of that battle were not the result of maliciousness of Loghain, but the idiocy of Cailan.

No one doubts that Cailan was foolish and reckless.  Loghain in particular knew it, and counted on it. The plan was not set in stone -- Cailan might have won the battle, after all -- but his goal was: He believed that Cailan's leadership was wrong, and he intended to usurp him and (as he saw it) do it right.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Dorrieb wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Yes, Loghain planned the strategy, but Cailan chose to disregard a lot of what he said.

As Loghain knew he would.

Cailan disregarded Duncan mentioned Eamon could send reinforcements in less than a week, and simply said Eamon wanted in on the glory as if that was the end of it.

Yes, Duncan made that argument, not Loghain. Nor did Loghain say anything like 'Yes, listen to Duncan, he's talking sense.' Funny that.

Add in that Loghain was saying constantly that Cailan should attend to reality and not put all his hopes in stories and legends, and that the front line was too dangerous for the king to fight, and Cailan disregarded it completely.

Several times, loudly and within earshot of just about everyone. How convenient! He's just covering himself in advance. He knows how it's going to end up, and he wants to be able to say 'I told him not to fight in the front lines, everyone heard me!' while knowing full well that Cailan will anyway. Maybe he even wants to be able to tell himself that, to ease his own conscience.

And it was Cailan who chose to charge out into the open and got himself surrounded on all sides.

Not to mention all the darkspawn numbers, their tunneling and taking the tower, and surrounding them on all sides.

It was simply a battle that could not be won, and many of the problems of that battle were not the result of maliciousness of Loghain, but the idiocy of Cailan.

No one doubts that Cailan was foolish and reckless.  Loghain in particular knew it, and counted on it. The plan was not set in stone -- Cailan might have won the battle, after all -- but his goal was: He believed that Cailan's leadership was wrong, and he intended to usurp him and (as he saw it) do it right.

A: That's not the Word Of God interpretation.
B: That doesn't explain why Loghain continues to stand by this decision after he has already been punished for it (thus taking capital punishment off the table) and after he has admitted that he has basically been one large disaster for the entirety of the game. (Thus he's clearly willing to own mistakes.)
C: This plan seems a little bit overcomplicated (to the extent that it could go wrong at several points), and requires Loghain to sacrifice a lot of soldiers who (from what he says at Return To Ostagar) answered to him.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 janvier 2014 - 07:01 .

[AlexanderCousland]

dragonflight288 wrote...


Did you guys know that Loghain personally saw Duncan's predecessor make deals with darkspawn that would doom humanity in The Calling?

No of course they did not, that would require reading. 

I support  the Warden's and as a Commander I believe I can understand why Lohgain had reservations about trusting the Warden's. Most people don't know Duncan was a murderer and thief, and that's why he became a Warden. Lohgain WAGGED TWO ENTIRE CAMPAIGNS AND USED UP THE TREASURY trying to find Maric TWICE yet people seem to believe he wanted Cailin to die. It obviously doesn't help the perception of  Lohgain's intentions when He finds out Cailin was planning to betray Anora for Celene, an Orlesian Crown, and everything Maric, Rowan, and Lohgain worked for just hours before battle.  However, people should consider how many troops would have been lost Had Lohgain attempted to save Cailin from the FRONTLINES (in case you don't know, that's at the very Heart of the battle) especially since OUR WARDENS and Alistair were late lighting the Beacon (Darskpawn overrun Tower) which is the reason he Blamed us (Wardens) for the Battle, and thrown in with The Proposal he saw between Genevieve and the Architect. 
I dont like the Actions he took post Ostagar, but people, there is a difference between not liking something and Understanding it. 

[Angrywolves]

Don't agree with a lot of what you say.
It's irrelevant what Duncan was before he became a warden.

A lot of us don't read Gaider books.Not a requirement that we do so prior to playing DA games.

I believe Loghain did want Cailin to die.He couldn't control Cailin.

We don't know that Cailin would actually go through with it, with leaving Anora for Celene.
If he had we can't call that in truth a betrayal of Ferelden. If countries stayed enemies with countries who they had fought the US would not have become friends with Great Britain, Germany, Italy, or Japan. There has to be a peace and Loghain didn't want to accept that.

You can make excuses for Loghain if you like him.That is your business.
But be aware that others don't.

[Augustei]

Angrywolves wrote...
If he had we can't call that in truth a betrayal of Ferelden. If countries stayed enemies with countries who they had fought the US would not have become friends with Great Britain, Germany, Italy, or Japan. There has to be a peace and Loghain didn't want to accept that.

As Loghain so elequently put it, peace just means fighting other peoples battles for other peoples reasons.
All it would have meant is a bloody civil war as the Ferelden nobility try to maintain their independence and eventually Ferelden being drafted into a war with Nevarra.

And if you think it isn't A betrayal then you are naive. if your countrys leader went and deprived your country of its independence what would you call it? If they subjected you to the rule of a foreign power? If Washington went bowed to British rule 30 years after the revolutionary war what would people call that?

Orlais would have dominated Ferelden, Val Royeaux would be the capital dont doubt it, the future monarchs would be Orlesians, Ferelden would be completely subserviant to Orlais and Val Royeaux and majority of revenues and beneficials would be redirected to Orlais.. Ferelden is a country with great potential,. that potetial would be crushed under Orlesian rule

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 08 janvier 2014 - 08:28 .

[Dorrieb]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

A: That's not the Word Of God interpretation.

All they've said is that Loghain made the decision 'there and then'. That doesn't discount premeditation.

B: That doesn't explain why Loghain continues to stand by this decision after he has already been punished for it (thus taking capital punishment off the table) and after he has admitted that he has basically been one large disaster for the entirety of the game. (Thus he's clearly willing to own mistakes.)

He isn't wrong, the retreat was inevitable. It was the situation that was not inevitable, and that one he contrived himself. What else is he going to say? 'Willing to own his mistakes', really? Only AFTER thousands of deaths, being defeated, stripped of power, condemned to death, pardoned, and inducted into the grey wardens, and even then all he says is that he made a 'tactical error'. That doesn't describe someone who is 'willing to own his mistakes'.

C: This plan seems a little bit overcomplicated (to the extent that it could go wrong at several points), and requires Loghain to sacrifice a lot of soldiers who (from what he says at Return To Ostagar) answered to him.

Indeed, and that is what takes him over the moral horizon, that he was willing to sacrifice the lives of all those soldiers. As I said, if the battle had gone another way, he would have charged, and if it went as it did, he was ready not to. What's complicated about that?

FreshIstay wrote...
No of course they did not, that would require reading. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

Reading a David Gaider novel... not at all the same thing.

Modifié par Dorrieb, 08 janvier 2014 - 08:49 .

[Joy Divison]

Dorrieb wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Cailan disregarded Duncan mentioned Eamon could send reinforcements in less than a week, and simply said Eamon wanted in on the glory as if that was the end of it.

Yes, Duncan made that argument, not Loghain. Nor did Loghain say anything like 'Yes, listen to Duncan, he's talking sense.' Funny that.

Dorrieb wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Add in that Loghain was saying constantly that Cailan should attend to reality and not put all his hopes in stories and legends, and that the front line was too dangerous for the king to fight, and Cailan disregarded it completely.

Several times, loudly and within earshot of just about everyone. How convenient! He's just covering himself in advance. He knows how it's going to end up, and he wants to be able to say 'I told him not to fight in the front lines, everyone heard me!' while knowing full well that Cailan will anyway. Maybe he even wants to be able to tell himself that, to ease his own conscience.

Classic case of seeing what you want to see.  if Loghain is silent on something he should speak up on, you count it as a strike against him.  If Loghain instead speaks up, you count it as a strike against him because he is conspiring.

And what evidence do you have that Loghain *knows* Cailan will fight on the frontline and disregard his advice in this particular aspect whereas Loghain somehow badgers Cailan to rejecting the Orleasian offer for aid?

It is pretty clear by playing the game Loghain is incompetent when it comes to politics.  Yet somehow he hatched a convoluted plan and manipulated everyone AND concocted a masterful alibi by twice urging his King to do the very thing (get off the front lines) that would wreck his entire scheme?!?

You claim Word of God doesn't discount premeditation.  But where is the same standard of proof FOR premeditation?

Modifié par Joy Divison, 08 janvier 2014 - 09:10 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Angrywolves wrote...

We don't know that Cailin would actually go through with it, with leaving Anora for Celene.

He was planning to, He had all intentions to. 

I requested divorce papers....I just died before I filled them out.

If he had we can't call that in truth a betrayal of Ferelden.

You do realize Orlesians Killed Marics mom, Lohgain' s Dad, (overturned years of Noble lines) and treated Ferelden like crap in general. Lohgain, Maric and Rowan fought for Freedom and Liberation. 30 years and one king removed from war Cailin was willing to sign all that Orlais couldn't win through War over on a piece of paper. Do you really think Ferelden would retain its independence if the King was married to the Empress? No.

 

 If countries stayed enemies with countries who they had fought the US would not have become friends with Great Britain, Germany, Italy, or Japan. There has to be a peace and Loghain didn't want to accept that.

The US isn't friends with those countries, there is this thing called War... and the US won it. As long as the US continue's to they will be "friends" with whomever they want to. Treaty is just another word for concession. 

[Martyr1777]

Zu Long wrote...

Death of the Author and all that, right? However, I've always thought DotA was kind of baloney, so if you can find me a quote where he says Loghain can see the army, I'll accept it. Hint: He doesn't say it in there. Actually what's really interesting is that Return to Ostagar contradicts some of what Gaidar says in there, especially about Cailan. It's intriguing to see how an author's vision can change over time.

You guys keep going round and round about this but this is the only really meaningful point.

Each one of you says how one thing or another makes no sense from your point of view. The true is the Ostagar scenario makes no sense from what ever p o int of view you look at it.

Loghain was smart because he saved some troops from a lost cause.
Loghain was stupid because he let Cailan sacrifice important troops to a lost cause.

Both are right in a sense, but only because they wanted to create alot of drama. When actually pull away the drama of the scenario after your first play through and start looking details, all the details, you see there is nothing holding it all together. Seriously if you look at all the actions from all the characters they all look like the most inept people ever yet they are supposed to be great men, well at least Loghain and Duncan.

The writers FUBAR'ed the whole thing especially when Gaider explored Loghains personality deeper in Stolen Throne. No one ever responds to this... but really can you guys really give meaningful reason Loghain would back down at Ostagar when he never once backed down during the rebellion? Saying he wanted Cailan dead doesnt count either because Loghains loyaly has always been to Fereldan first, so he wouldnt waste the troops and he wanted Maric dead just as much, if not more, in the beginning but still did what was right for his country. 

Loghain became a traitor yet he made Maric kill his own lover because she betrayed Maric the same way Loghain betrayed Cailan.

To be honest the ONLY way Stolen Throne and DAO make sense with each other is Flemeths prophocy that Loghain will betray Maric, there were hints of that in the book but the real meat of it comes with DAO. But beyond that everything that happens at Ostagar is non sense just for dramatic effect.

Like Fergus, he was out leading scouts. But never returned to lead his men in the battle. Where were the cousland men in fact. You would think they had to die with Cailan because they never would have accepted Howes actions if they left with Loghain. At the same time you have to image the Cousland forces had to be a significant percentage of the army being it was the army of a Teryn which would have the troops of all the Banns under their banner. 

And again, there were no mages or templars shown at all in the battle scene. I'm thinking they would have had a HUGE impact in the battle but we dont see them after the camp, only hear Wynn talk about how terrible it was.

What about all the dialoge about Orlais troops or Redcliffe troops. Thats all nonsense because they werent picking  the time of the battle, they couldnt simply wait formore help. They were holding a line waiting for the enemy to come to them, they gave the initiative to the Darkspawn and they attacked at their leisure. The only way talking about reinforcemnts makes any sense is if they retreat the army. But Duncan specifically said Eamon could JOIN them.

Come on guys, you are arguing broken points about a broken scene. But it was dramatic, I'll give it that, I mean look at all the threads about it after all.

[TEWR]

As Loghain knew he would.

Loghain has repeatedly told Cailan to keep his ass off the field. That's hardly something to pin on Loghain, if Cailan was too foolish to stay out of battle. And it does not indicate premeditation.

Word of God said that Loghain did not go to Ostagar with the intention of abandoning Cailan, so yeah.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Dorrieb wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

A: That's not the Word Of God interpretation.

All they've said is that Loghain made the decision 'there and then'. That doesn't discount premeditation.

That isn't close to all they've said.

David Gaider wrote...

In my mind, Loghain did not go to Ostagar expecting to walk away from the battle. It was clear, however, that he and Cailan were already having profound disagreements -- mainly centering on Cailan's overtures to Orlais. Loghain was obviously moving to confront Cailan in some way, undercutting his access to allies and so forth. But did Loghain plan on killing Cailan? No, I don't think that. I think he was doing what Loghain does, and trying to ensure that when that moment of confrontation with Cailan came the battle was already won.

That said, he had been fighting the darkspawn for some time in the south with Cailan there, and had already seen what Cailan was capable of. I think he made preparations prior to that last battle for the possibility that he would have to walk away. He once made a promise to Maric that he would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his kingdom. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up to you.

While this confirms that Loghain had plans that involved Cailan dying, this really isn't close to the same as your interpretation.

B: That doesn't explain why Loghain continues to stand by this decision after he has already been punished for it (thus taking capital punishment off the table) and after he has admitted that he has basically been one large disaster for the entirety of the game. (Thus he's clearly willing to own mistakes.)

He isn't wrong, the retreat was inevitable. It was the situation that was not inevitable, and that one he contrived himself. What else is he going to say? 'Willing to own his mistakes', really? Only AFTER thousands of deaths, being defeated, stripped of power, condemned to death, pardoned, and inducted into the grey wardens, and even then all he says is that he made a 'tactical error'. That doesn't describe someone who is 'willing to own his mistakes'.

I don't remember the line you're talking about. I do remember Loghain admitting at the top of Fort Drakon or during the conversation about the DR that he did a whole lot wrong and wants to atone, despite which I don't remember him giving any indication that he believes Ostagar to be one of his mistakes. And while he doesn't convince Wynne, there's not a whole lot she can do to argue he's wrong.

C: This plan seems a little bit overcomplicated (to the extent that it could go wrong at several points), and requires Loghain to sacrifice a lot of soldiers who (from what he says at Return To Ostagar) answered to him.

Indeed, and that is what takes him over the moral horizon, that he was willing to sacrifice the lives of all those soldiers. As I said, if the battle had gone another way, he would have charged, and if it went as it did, he was ready not to. What's complicated about that?

That it depends on the king disregarding advice that Loghain repeatedly gave (not the sort of thing you want to gamble on), the battle going poorly (and there's things Cailan could have done to influence that, notwithstanding that he doesn't) and Cailan not managing to escape the battle (not a safe thing to bet on, since everyone down there believes King Cailan to be the important one for some reason.)

FreshIstay wrote...
No of course they did not, that would require reading. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

Reading a David Gaider novel... not at all the same thing.

And yet I haven't.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 09 janvier 2014 - 08:05 .

[Corker]

O.O Eleven pages on Loghain in just two days? Aw, it's like old times!

[bEVEsthda]

"Was Loghain wise to retreat, or not?"

The question is, I think, - in perspective of what happened after and thus what really probably happened before and during, - not entirely relevant.
But no. Loghain was not wise. Nothing Loghain did after the battle was wise. And what he did after shouldn't be entirely discounted when thinking about what really happened at Ostagar. Because being 'unwise' regarding Ferelden was very likely not just a new idea that Loghain had.

Rather, I argue, the battle at Ostagar came about, before we met him, in much the same manner as he did all the other things, after we met him. Poisoning Eamon. Selling off people into slavery. Capturing, torturing and killing people. Spreading false accusations and false evidence. Starting civil war instead of defending Ferelden's people against Darkspawn.
We can't blame Howe for this. Loghain is responsible, no matter what. Howe is a bad man, for sure. But ultimately he is just an opportunist, riding along with Loghain's quest for shaping Ferelden into his personal vision of his beloved Ferelden, and the people of Ferelden be damned.

Loghain was a bad man. He certainly didn't consider himself a bad man. He considered himself superior, and thus always in the right, whatever the means. But the acts reveal the real measure of him.
Howe, in contrast, probably did consider himself a bad man, in as much as "bad" ever meant anything to him. Howe, was about Howe. Period.

But what about Loghains reputation for greatness? Well, we don't have to go there. Some theories are more plausible than others, but we don't have to speculate about how much of it is cult and propaganda, a one-sided public image of a man that really, all the time, was more - or less - than perceived. We don't have to speculate about if he has changed, and is no longer the man he was. We only judge Loghain for what he is now. And he is a bad man. He actually is the villain of DA:O. A complex villain for sure, but the villain nevertheless.

So what really happened? Well, it took a very long time before Loghain started to become really concerned about the Darkspawn. So, certainly, it wasn't much on his mind at all, when he went to Ostagar. All other things were in his mind. Cailan, who he didn't like. The Grey Wardens, who he didn't like. Orlesians, who he didn't like. Any Ferelden soldier who was loyal to others than Loghain.

It's been said over and over again in this thread, that Loghain saved half the army. I must admit that it's been a long time since I played the game, so I'm foggy about if there is any support for that claim. I don't know. But I don't think so, because I've always assumed that he had his entire army with him. Loghain "saved" the entire army, basically. The force that got massacred was smaller and consisted of the Grey Wardens and soldiers who mainly answered to Cailan. The king's soldiers, if you will, not Ferelden's army. Ferelden's army was with Loghain. And he considered it his, just as much as the army saw Loghain as their leader and commander.

Loghain planned the battle. You'll not be successful to convince me that Cailan had much genuine influence. Cailan is ignorant and a fool. Loghain can manipulate and guide the plan however he sees fit.

And here was a bit of luck for Loghain. In the days before, a group of his men discovered that there was a chain of caves and tunnels under the tower, which led out into the gorge. This is the very seed to Loghains sinister plans.
On Loghains orders, the tower was cordoned off, off limits to others than his loyal gang. Why? What happened next, inside the tower and below?

Well, I can tell you what absolutely should have happened. The tunnels should have been plugged and sealed. This is basic defense work. This didn't happen. Instead the opposite came about. A passage under and into the tower was linked and opened up, easy for the darkspawn to find.

So the centerpiece in Loghains plan was always that the decoy force was to be massacred. They would die, because there would never be any signal for him to attack.
 
He didn't go to Ostagar with the intention to have Cailan killed. Check. But the opportunity presented itself. We cannot know what was most important for him, kill off the king, or kill off the Grey Wardens and other forces with - as Loghain saw it - questionable loyalties. It doesn't matter.

The signal was essential. Check. It was vital because it would serve as Loghain's excuse.

When the signal was lit, he made his decision, there and then, to abandon the field. Check. It wasn't his plan, but he would look dam stupid, or strange, just standing there passively, while signal is burning and the king and the Wardens are massacred. Luck had it that more Darkspawn than expected turned up. This becomes his new excuse. It's maybe not so convincing, but he has nothing better, and he can make it more credible by claiming that the Grey Wardens killed the King and abandoned the field. He has to incriminate the survivors from the tower. Because they are disloyal witnesses to the fact that the battle was indeed possible to win.

Through it all, before, during and after, Loghain is only little concerned with the Darkspawn, and not at all with Ferelden's prosperity, or the wellbeing of its people. His main preoccupation is threats to his own authority and his vision for Ferelden. This is what guides his actions. None of this is wise. Only late, does he understand that it's a Bligh and a serious problem.

No, Loghain wasn't wise.



(This above explanation is, of course, far from the only one possible. But it's, I feel, as reasonable as any other.)

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 09 janvier 2014 - 06:01 .

[Mike3207]

bEVEsthda wrote...

"Was Loghain wise to retreat, or not?"

The question is, I think, - in perspective of what happened after and thus what really probably happened before and during, - not entirely relevant.
But no. Loghain was not wise. Nothing Loghain did after the battle was wise. And what he did after shouldn't be entirely discounted when thinking about what really happened at Ostagar. Because being 'unwise' regarding Ferelden was very likely not just a new idea that Loghain had.

Rather, I argue, the battle at Ostagar came about, before we met him, in much the same manner as he did all the other things, after we met him. Poisoning Eamon. Selling off people into slavery. Capturing, torturing and killing people. Spreading false accusations and false evidence. Starting civil war instead of defending Ferelden's people against Darkspawn.
We can't blame Howe for this. Loghain is responsible, no matter what. Howe is a bad man, for sure. But ultimately he is just an opportunist, riding along with Loghain's quest for shaping Ferelden into his personal vision of his beloved Ferelden, and the people of Ferelden be damned.

Loghain was a bad man. He certainly didn't consider himself a bad man. He considered himself superior, and thus always in the right, whatever the means. But the acts reveal the real measure of him.
Howe, in contrast, probably did consider himself a bad man, in as much as "bad" ever meant anything to him. Howe, was about Howe. Period.

But what about Loghains reputation for greatness? Well, we don't have to go there. Some theories are more plausible than others, but we don't have to speculate about how much of it is cult and propaganda, a one-sided public image of a man that really, all the time, was more - or less - than perceived. We don't have to speculate about if he has changed, and is no longer the man he was. We only judge Loghain for what he is now. And he is a bad man. He actually is the villain of DA:O. A complex villain for sure, but the villain nevertheless.

So what really happened? Well, it took a very long time before Loghain started to become really concerned about the Darkspawn. So, certainly, it wasn't much on his mind at all, when he went to Ostagar. All other things were in his mind. Cailan, who he didn't like. The Grey Wardens, who he didn't like. Orlesians, who he didn't like. Any Ferelden soldier who was loyal to others than Loghain.

It's been said over and over again in this thread, that Loghain saved half the army. I must admit that it's been a long time since I played the game, so I'm foggy about if there is any support for that claim. I don't know. But I don't think so, because I've always assumed that he had his entire army with him. Loghain "saved" the entire army, basically. The force that got massacred was smaller and consisted of the Grey Wardens and soldiers who mainly answered to Cailan. The king's soldiers, if you will, not Ferelden's army. Ferelden's army was with Loghain. And he considered it his, just as much as the army saw Loghain as their leader and commander.

Loghain planned the battle. You'll not be successful to convince me that Cailan had much genuine influence. Cailan is ignorant and a fool. Loghain can manipulate and guide the plan however he sees fit.

And here was a bit of luck for Loghain. In the days before, a group of his men discovered that there was a chain of caves and tunnels under the tower, which led out into the gorge. This is the very seed to Loghains sinister plans.
On Loghains orders, the tower was cordoned off, off limits to others than his loyal gang. Why? What happened next, inside the tower and below?

Well, I can tell you what absolutely should have happened. The tunnels should have been plugged and sealed. This is basic defense work. This didn't happen. Instead the opposite came about. A passage under and into the tower was linked and opened up, easy for the darkspawn to find.

So the centerpiece in Loghains plan was always that the decoy force was to be massacred. They would die, because there would never be any signal for him to attack.
 
He didn't go to Ostagar with the intention to have Cailan killed. Check. But the opportunity presented itself. We cannot know what was most important for him, kill off the king, or kill off the Grey Wardens and other forces with - as Loghain saw it - questionable loyalties. It doesn't matter.

The signal was essential. Check. It was vital because it would serve as Loghain's excuse.

When the signal was lit, he made his decision, there and then, to abandon the field. Check. It wasn't his plan, but he would look dam stupid, or strange, just standing there passively, while signal is burning and the king and the Wardens are massacred. Luck had it that more Darkspawn than expected turned up. This becomes his new excuse. It's maybe not so convincing, but he has nothing better, and he can make it more credible by claiming that the Grey Wardens killed the King and abandoned the field. He has to incriminate the survivors from the tower. Because they are disloyal witnesses to the fact that the battle was indeed possible to win.

Through it all, before, during and after, Loghain is only little concerned with the Darkspawn, and not at all with Ferelden's prosperity, or the wellbeing of its people. His main preoccupation is threats to his own authority and his vision for Ferelden. This is what guides his actions. None of this is wise. Only late, does he understand that it's a Bligh and a serious problem.

No, Loghain wasn't wise.



(This above explanation is, of course, far from the only one possible. But it's, I feel, as reasonable as any other.)

You're only as wise as the intelligence you have for the battle. For all practical purposes, the darkspawn achieved tactical surprise at the battle of Ostagar. The Ferelden forces were expecting darkspawn, but not in the numbers they appeared. The battle plan he came up with was designed for a force much smaller than he faced. That plus a meddling Cailan ensured that there was very little chance for a victory, and a much reduced chance for a stalemate at the battle.

[bEVEsthda]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

As Loghain knew he would.

Loghain has repeatedly told Cailan to keep his ass off the field. That's hardly something to pin on Loghain, if Cailan was too foolish to stay out of battle. And it does not indicate premeditation.
 

True. Both. But as arguments, they're weightless.

It tells us nothing of Loghain's plans for Cailan. Surely, we can be certain that Cailan can be relied upon on taking a certain position, regardless of what is said to him. Surely, it's extremely likely that Loghain knows well in advance, from intimate experience, that Cailan will be deaf to certain advice.

It more raises the question why Loghain is so anxious to be heard to warn the king. He should have been tired of that game.

Word of God said that Loghain did not go to Ostagar with the intention of abandoning Cailan, so yeah.

Me thinks 'Word of god' chooses the words very carefully. Remarkably carefully. In this case, just as in others. You know, if what some wants to explicitly read into this, was the full and only possible meaning, it could have been said much simpler, and more explicitly. It says nothing of what plans Loghain made at Ostagar, what opportunities he would see and decide to act on.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 09 janvier 2014 - 07:29 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

bEVEsthda wrote...

It's been said over and over again in this thread, that Loghain saved half the army. I must admit that it's been a long time since I played the game, so I'm foggy about if there is any support for that claim. I don't know. But I don't think so, because I've always assumed that he had his entire army with him. Loghain "saved" the entire army, basically. The force that got massacred was smaller and consisted of the Grey Wardens and soldiers who mainly answered to Cailan. The king's soldiers, if you will, not Ferelden's army. Ferelden's army was with Loghain. And he considered it his, just as much as the army saw Loghain as their leader and commander.

Loghain states in dialogue with Wynne that the men with the king were Loghain's, too. And that he knew a lot of their families.

[bEVEsthda]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

It's been said over and over again in this thread, that Loghain saved half the army. I must admit that it's been a long time since I played the game, so I'm foggy about if there is any support for that claim. I don't know. But I don't think so, because I've always assumed that he had his entire army with him. Loghain "saved" the entire army, basically. The force that got massacred was smaller and consisted of the Grey Wardens and soldiers who mainly answered to Cailan. The king's soldiers, if you will, not Ferelden's army. Ferelden's army was with Loghain. And he considered it his, just as much as the army saw Loghain as their leader and commander.

Loghain states in dialogue with Wynne that the men with the king were Loghain's, too. And that he knew a lot of their families.

Yes, I know. But I cannot regard everything that Loghain says as fact.

I am curious about hints at the battle. I cannot remember anything conclusive.

[TEWR]

Yes, I know. But I cannot regard everything that Loghain says as fact.

Why would he lie about this? He's willing to admit he's ****ed up if spared on everything except Ostagar, maintaining that it was the right call he made. Why would we discount that they were his men?

I am curious about hints at the battle. I cannot remember anything conclusive.

What sort of hints are you looking for, precisely? I have a good recollection of Ostagar related things, considering I've debated it into oblivion.

It more raises the question why Loghain is so anxious to be heard to warn the king. He should have been tired of that game.

Loghain's the general and Cailan's the king. Regardless of how successful you think you'll be, you are obligated to at least advise your king when to stay out of battle.

Even if it's failed repeatedly in the past.

What you said is what Joy Division said above in reply to someone else's stance. If Loghain says something, it's evidence against him. If he doesn't say something, it's evidence against him.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 janvier 2014 - 12:06 .